Michelin-Starred Chef & Restaurateur: Björn Frantzén – Fine Dining, Football, and the Art of Casual Elegance

39:10The Gstaad Guy:you can are there any categories of of the business in the industry that you see less and less young people going towards and trying to to get involved in i mean we're in paris right now what's cool about paris is that you see a lot of restaurant managers managers and even some what we call captain servers that are 40 50 maybe 60 years of age if you go to the nordic region or in sweden or in many other countries, you don't see a lot of older people staying in the business. So I think we have a problem with keeping staff, especially front of house, for a long time. And I think a lot of people that work front of house, it's not necessarily that they've gone through catering college etc etc because the dream is to become a server or waitress they might be doing something else but now they need need money that's why they start a restaurant industry so i think we have a problem of filling up with new generation of front of house stuff unfortunately and i think also that sometimes i think we lost a little bit of what was really cool 20 30 40 years ago where even you went to a simple brasserie everyone that works from the house could debone a whole fish in front of the dining room flambes everything like that that's very rarely nowadays this podcast is brought to you by pubelle by the stade guy bringing you charms hand painted with enamel on 925 sterling silver allowing you to express all the things you love and all the things you might question from river bateaus to baggammon board and caviar tins to paddle rackets there is a poubelle charm or completed set for everyone in the know thank you so much for watching and enjoy the pod cast do you think the excitement to be in these sorts of roles has changed or is it an economic issue i'm trying to understand yeah I think it's a combination of, because if you do all these things in front of house, in a restaurant, in a dining room, there, obviously to debone a Dover sole in front of a guest, it takes time instead of just the kitchen is doing it before service and then they just roast it and put it on the plate.

41:51So you need more staff to do it. So in that sense, I think it's unfortunately down to an economic situation. that's why that sort of crafts got missing in most parts of the world because it's down to economics if we do these things out in the dining room we need this amount of more servers but to have that we can't raise the price on that etc etc

42:19The Gstaad Guy:it's a whole different experience when you have all those things it is accounted for it is But prices are pretty limited and pushed down at the moment because of economics around the globe. So it became a problem. I mean, one of my favorite dishes is a classic steak tata. Me too. But if you compare it, if you make it in front of the guest in a dining room and then serve it straight away, super nice and fluffy and I would say it's like 100 % better than when they do it in the kitchen but if you're going to make a steak tartare in front of a guest it's going to take you 3-4 minutes compared to just put down a plate so who's going to pay for it?

43:09Are you prepared to pay instead of let's say 39 euro for a steak tartare you need to pay 59 euro so it's always those questions that the restaurant industry is facing

43:23The Gstaad Guy:do you like French steak tartare love it not Italian nah more of a French in that way I had an amazing one last night did you it's called La Poulopote oh wow really good steak tartare ok good then I know where I'm going tonight I will really good I will when you are coming up with a dish or coming up with a dining experience are you starting with a dish or with an emotion that you're trying to make the person feel and work back from there no I always start with the dish. And the dish comes out of either I'm bored and want to do something new. Or most cases, seasonality.

44:06And the first thing I do is that I draw the dish. Some chefs, they go around in the kitchen and they smell a carrot and then they start feeling stuff. But that's not me. I'm sitting, you know, sitting on by myself with a computer and with, you know, pen and paper. And then I start drawing the dish. And a lot of times, because the aesthetics is so important to me. So I need to figure out before I start cooking the dish exactly how to plate it. And sometimes the dish might be in my sort of world three star level. but the presentation is not getting there. So then I can't serve the dish. Very frustrating.

45:00But yeah. So no, it always starts with sort of the aesthetics behind the dish

45:09The Gstaad Guy:out of seasonality or being bored. It's funny because you love the aesthetics as a creative, but from what I've understood as a consumer, you actually like the home style. Yeah. However it comes, it comes. Yeah. But for me, when it comes to plating on a dish, it's hard to describe. But you could either be very tweezer, small pipettes doing drops. But for me, I want it to feel more onaturell. So it should be like it just felt down on the plate like that. but in that it needs to be an elegant sauce because otherwise it looks sloppy. So it's a thin red line there where it's not too plated but still not sloppy.

46:01The Gstaad Guy:Is there still lots of room for innovation you find in the industry? It's so boring to say no but I'll tell you a story. When I first opened the restaurant back in 2008 before that i i was test cooking a lot of dishes back in 2005 2006 before we opened the restaurant i was i was working somewhere else and i made a tomato dessert with like a lemon coconut lemongrass ice cream and etc and i was so proud it's like bang and then we had it on the first menu when we open and then first time i served it to the first guest obviously it was a foodie he came there it's like oh so this is a ripoff of charlie trotter's tomato dessert charlie trotter was an amazing chef in chicago i never been there never heard about the dish and like no well no no what do you mean oh no everyone's gonna think i'm just you know copying him so i have to take it away you know so in that way i mean this is what almost 20 years ago so it feels like almost most thing has been done already if you're looking around the globe and especially today with social media and things are flying back and forth when i was younger we used to go and eat in in michelin star restaurants in france and then we asked to bring the menu back with us and then we sit we came back to sweden and we were sitting with a lexicon french and in english lexicon and trying to understand where everything was nowadays you know people post it before they put it in their mouth so it's a bam out there you know so i don't know it just feels like most stuff has been done but at the same time you can you can look at stuff on a picture and try to recreate but every chef needs to go their own way and have their own way with it so it might be totally different in the way but it was quite some time ago when I saw or ate something that felt wow who this has never been done before that was quite some time ago fine where do you find yourself and what sort of establishments or even parts of the world Do you find yourself getting a wow feeling when you're eating?

48:34That big wow comes normally from a very good three Michelin star or two Michelin star restaurant where I feel a couple of things, you know, it feels like it's a clever chef. You know, you can feel it when the balance and how the dishes are created. and also where people doing their own thing 100 % and everyone working there really loves it. I mean, sometimes I can go to restaurants and I think, okay, I can feel the chef is good. He's under seasoning everything compared to my liking. But after a while, you get into it because that's how he wants it to be. And the front of house are so proud over everything and they're good at what they're doing.

49:25I get really I can leave the restaurant and people like they were really good at doing what they want to do so more that it doesn't need to be exactly to my liking but that they are really good into what they're doing that for me

49:45The Gstaad Guy:is wow from what I've observed in a lot of these restaurants a huge part of the experience is for those who opt into it is the wine pairing very little to none of which has any involvement with the kitchen i assume the choice of what wine it is but they're not very rarely is a restaurant also a winery how important is that process to you my take on wine pairing is that i don't know how many ten thousands if you compare all the restaurants and gone to and had wine pairing, how often does they actually make one plus one, not two, but three, which is supposed to be with a beverage, like a really hallelujah moment.

50:35When you eat the food, it's great food, and when you drink the beverage, it's like, bam, it goes up one more step. I maybe had 15 of those out of what 10 ,000 of great sommeliers and chefs matching wine and food together. So meaning it is less than 1 % and less than 1 promille of a percent. So my take on it is instead of serve a great beverage that is nice to drink also in between dishes then try to match them super super hard um so most yeah that that's normally my take on it but once you get it correct it's super amazing but the most sometimes also the funny part of this is most times when one plus one becomes three not two when it comes to wine and food for me most half of those times it's been when the food's been kind of a little bit off season it might be too acidic and then you drink the beverage for example you have a super acidic lemon dessert and you eat it it's like you know your eyes roll back and then you might drink a sparkling moscati the oste with sweetness who kind of calms everything down and then it's like boom and i remember i had in japan one time i had a super sweet um melon and then you were drinking a bitter buckwheat tea and those two together were also like what's going on but then i thought the buckwheat tea was in my liking too bitter and the melon was kind of over sweet but together they really worked The only part with that is I'm worried because you have a lot of people nowadays who doesn't drink alcohol.

52:35So if you off-season the food and people are not having that pairing, they're going to think like, what's going on there, man? You lost the plot. So, yeah. Do you have an increasing number of those diners? Yeah. It's less and less alcohol and more and more non-alcoholic. Yeah.

52:52The Gstaad Guy:Do you adjust the dishes accordingly? As I said, I don't off-season my dishes in that way. We rather serve great wine and then, I mean, more the French take on it. In most restaurants here in France, I was just recently yesterday in a three Michelin star restaurant, which was great, and with a tasting menu, and they didn't have a wine pairing. Like, here's the wine list. That's the French take on it. You take a great wine you like, we serve you good food, it's going to be a good night. yeah agreed yeah so i'm more of into that liking fine because you're a busy guy you're hard to get hold of you have a lot going on you're always place place to place when you go to a three michelin star restaurant do you ever tell them like listen guys you got to pick up the pace i do this twice a week we need to speed up no no i mean i mean unfortunately yeah no i don't and i try to relax and go with whatever pace the restaurant want to go in that sense.

54:00What do you think is a sweet spot for duration? Depends, again, if you're offered to start or finish the meal in a different path, like a living room or a lounge. Then I think, but if you're sitting at the same table and eating from canapé to pedefoe, I think it should be down within three hours roughly it's reasonable sometimes if it drags out to four or five hours it's just too much it's like playing around the golf sometimes in Sweden it can take you five, five and a half hours it's just way too long

54:38The Gstaad Guy:it's a long time especially for people who are there on a first date it's a crazy first date to go on it is, I don't get that who goes and takes a minute on a first date yeah they're locked in yeah they're locked in man they're locked in I've seen the Gordon Ramsay TV shows about angry chefs and like abusive kitchens the whole stigma I've never seen it in real life because I've never worked in a kitchen yeah but I've heard these like horror stories and also dream stories and I'm curious about what that spectrum looks like like what's a great kitchen compared to a nightmare kitchen in terms of culture and bullying.

55:21I mean of course I think the last 20 years have been good for the industry compared to all the violence that actually went on in the kitchens. All the horror stories are true and they are worse. There are a lot worse stories even to bring forward. When I first opened my restaurant we had an investor and then after one year down the line i was talking to him on a sunday restaurant close on sundays and he gave me the greatest kind of advice that i have carried with me since then and that made my life so easy when it comes to these kind of things so i called him on a sunday and he asked like how was the week and and i was like 29 30 at the time and i was like oh it's so hard in the kitchen we've been so busy and and the chefs are not performing oh I'm going on about this and he start laughing I said why the hell are you laughing he said but you don't got it you don't understand do you I said what do you mean it's all your fault what do you mean all my fault I think I'm doing good he said no no no no listen either you hire the wrong people or you train them wrong both your fault so why are you complaining so what you gotta ask yourself is or ask the person that's not performing at the level that you know we need it's simple asking have you got the right training to do your job properly how are we giving you the time and the instructions and showed you have we been clear with that yes okay good okay so why aren't you performing is it because what we're doing is too difficult or is it because you're trying, you know, being an asshole to me?

57:18Why? And if that happens, and then on the third time, it's very simple. You don't need to be upset. You can just come to the conclusion. Listen, I don't want to come to work and I don't want to have an atmosphere where we are being annoyed at each other. I don't want to scream to someone or anything. so I can just come to the conclusion that the level we are doing things at it's at the moment that it'll be too high for you so I recommend you that you actually work somewhere else and then you know we might see what happens in the future simple as that simple as that so if someone is keep you know struggling or or doing mistakes ask them have hold on here has something gone wrong with your training or your learning period or why are you keep doing this and if you have the right people on board also they go home you don't need to scream and shout they go home and they being disappointed with someone hits harder than screaming and i remember when i worked when i was a young chef and you know and the chef came in screaming like oh you're so bad you couldn't even be a lorry driver in Sweden.

58:37I think lorry driver, lorry driver is pretty difficult, but okay, it was just bullshit. The first three times, it's hard. You're like, oh, but then fourth time, it goes in one ear, it goes out the other. You stop listening, you know? But if that chef would have come up to me and taken me out in the corridor, into the changing room, and had a serious conversation, been disappointed, I would have been devastated, you know? And I would think about it all night and come back really rock and roll next day instead of coming in and feeling like you're hating your boss a little bit. So yeah, that advice together with being disappointed has been a big change for me.

59:19And I think obviously we don't have the same amount of chefs around anymore as we used to when it comes to staffing as we discussed. So I think you need to, in a good way, the head chefs and the restaurateurs has needed to be better and improved in their leadership.

59:44The Gstaad Guy:You've shared what it takes to be a great chef, a great team leader, what it takes to be great as part of any member of the team in a restaurant. What we haven't touched on is one big part of that song and dance, which is also the customer. I'd love to know from the perspective of a chef and restaurateur, what makes a great customer and dining guest? The best services with the best atmosphere we have is when the guests are actually also giving a little bit back, you know, that they are curious, they are happy and they are, you know, interacting with the team. that's the best ones and what I love about restaurant is that restaurant vibe that's why for me sometimes I tend to go to more brasseries but when you have music you hear sharing and laughing and clinking in the glasses I love being in that environment I feel comfortable at home in it so So it's when the sound level goes up.

1:01:11That's the best services where people are having a great time or they are coming in with the right attitude. You know, sometimes you can see people coming and they kind of want to... They're looking and searching for something to complain about or whatever, you know. But when people come in and are seriously jolly and happy to be there and are enjoying themselves and interacting a little bit, that's the best services when the guests are like that.

1:01:52The Gstaad Guy:I can tell you were trying to be a big part of that energy with Studio Francine as well. Everything is sharing and it's lots of group seating yeah it is it is and that's why also when I come to my fine dining restaurants I made my own playlist I changed it maybe 10 years ago from like classic kind of boring background elevated music to Guns N' Roses Metallica etc because that's not what you used to listen to when you're drinking Grand Cree wines and in a three Michelin star restaurant. But it really creates that vibe that I want. And people get emotional when they hear music like that. Music creates emotions.

1:02:46What's it like to balance personal life with this line of work? The problem is there's only 24 hours a day. And if you're going to be really good at something and trying to learn to master something, you need to use a lot of those hours on perfection it. Meaning there's little time left for other stuff as family, kids, hobbies, yourself, meaning training, looking after yourself. People talk about 10 ,000 hours, I think it's a lot more to perfect something or being better at something.

1:03:33The Gstaad Guy:So, yeah, there are sacrifices. When building out your teams, other than, of course, hard skill and the usual, is there anything you look for in a person that you find to be quite unique? People that are professional and serious. And even though that sounds like a very simple, common thing, it's not. because being serious and professional means not staying out late the day before coming to work, not drinking, also taking care of yourself, maybe going to the gym because it's an elite thing to be on this level. So you got to be there. You need to live it. it's like look at whatever people that are really good at what they're doing whatever comes to tennis or Rafael Nadal or Federer or whatever they're now out you know drinking before you know going into a game etc etc and our game is four or five times a day a week with operating a restaurant so and also people who cares you know who

1:04:57I'm kind of never switch off work. If we have a problem, I might tend to think about it when I go home, when I go for a run, or even in the shower. And I need people to work with me

1:05:11The Gstaad Guy:that feel the same, you know? As you know, I'm not a big fine diner. Occasional fine diner. But I've had the pleasure of spending some time in Tokyo. and there I'm a proud fine diner. I love eating at amazing establishments in Tokyo, particularly because of that incredible specialization we've spoken about that's quite unique to Japanese culture. A place will specialize in one certain type of cooking or an ingredient or even an ingredient. Just steak. I went to a place called Miyoshi in Kyoto, which is an amazing... Yeah, I think they have three Michelin stars. It's amazing. and can have places just tempura.

1:05:55Just deep frying. That's all they do. Meanwhile, restaurants like yours,

1:06:01The Gstaad Guy:you're trying to master so many different crafts. Yeah. And I think that's what's so cool about Japan and that's why I go there and feel like a proper amateur. I mean, and it's like you go to this restaurant that only serve chicken. They have their own chickens in the backyard and then they slaughter them and the first servings of the chicken, you get a whole chicken. It's sashimi or chicken. And you know, your whole brain scripts, don't put it in your mouth, man. Don't put it in the mouth. But you still eat it. And I don't know, maybe three people a year dying because of this. I don't know. But it's, so the Japanese are so specialized in everything they're doing.

1:06:39Yeah. And when I create my menus and when we look at fine dining or tasting menus, So what happened was like 100 or 150 years ago, the only place that did multiple course menu, that was in Japan, in the Kaiseki kitchen. And then the French came there and discovered it, took it back to France and kind of destroyed it because they start adding gluten in bread, a lot of fat in butter and dairy. But if you studied Kaiseki kitchen, that's the master of eating a tasting menu. so I studied kaiseki a lot when I created my menus and I learned so much about how you should do a tasting menu like how did you start always with something raw I always have a shavamushi etc so for fine dining even for French fine dining they're going to swear at me now saying this but it's it's all a copy of kaiseki that's how it started so the influence of japan obviously it's the talk is the city with the most mission stars in the world and to be honest for the correct reasons you don't open a restaurant there you open a restaurant out of as i said either a product or a cooking technique which is crazy so i go and sit in the kitchen counter is there and I see the guy and he's like 72 years old and he's like he's like a ninja with that knife you know and I feel like a donkey you know it's true mastery yeah it is and to have the patience to do that for 60 years and that only oh gosh I get bored after 60 minutes you know it's very impressive yeah and people don't know that That's actually where taste the main needs come from.

1:08:43The Gstaad Guy:Yeah, that's true. What about omakase? That chef's choice, you know? So it's a take on it, which is a bit freer. For me, kaiseki, it's a bit too hardcore because it's so ingredient-driven and they don't, you know, I class like a train. I like a piece of fat and a job blanc, whatever, you know? But there it's like only boop, boop, and you sit maybe in a restaurant, you sit in a room on your knees, on yourself, for two hours and just eating no music is like whoops i think you need to be brought up in that to really enjoy it and understand it fine but i studied a lot how all my tastings menus are done yeah and the same i don't understand when you're having a tasting menu and then they finish off with a chocolate dessert i mean you are stuffed by the time you know don't serve chocolate dessert as a last dish should be something lighter if you if I'm a chocolate lover yeah give it for pedophores it's fine yeah I don't get it yeah I've had the the pleasure of having lots of non-Japanese cuisine while in Japan as well and it's some of the best I've had in every category yeah I know like I think the best burger I've had I know but they are the best pizza yeah I mean they are such a masters the Japanese but they feel like they they're getting so nerdy so they get so deep deep deep deep deep down into doing the perfect burger like we can't beat them it's amazing it's crazy the mindset it's just yeah amazing beautiful thing on this podcast we always play game of A La Poubelle versus Fantastique.

1:10:39The Gstaad Guy:A La Poubelle in French is what we throw in the trash. I know. We want to change. Fantastique are things we love and celebrate. Okay. In your industry in your world what do you wish you could change and throw A La Poubelle? I'm tired of a restaurant trying to be trendy and playing so high music that you can't even talk to the people you're going with without screaming. I agree. Oh come on. if you want that you go to a bar or nightclub after it's true loud music while dining a la poubelle yeah maybe somewhere old but you know what I mean you go to these restaurants and they go boom boom come on wait we do that after in the bar you know I'm tired of maybe you just wanted one but I'm tired of leaves the list is great I'm tired of shellfish tartar of like stuff you know if it's gonna be raw when it comes to fish it's much better when it's sashimi style sliced thinly because some of these tartars of shellfish they grow in their mouth they have too much sweetness so I'd rather have it as a sashimi and sashimi lobster it's lobster supposed to be a little bit cooked man Is that because of texture or flavor or hygiene?

1:12:05The Gstaad Guy:Texture. Texture. So, because is raw shellfish somewhat dangerous? Nah, but especially as the raw lobsters and stuff. I mean, it's much better with like a sashimi or hamachi or, you know, halibut or salmon or something. Throw that in the bin, man. I love the bin. Okay. I love these specific ones oh yeah is there an ingredient you see that's being overused that you're like oh come on not this again truffle mayonnaise I agree I don't like truffle at all let's begin with truffle mayonnaise it's not good and everything no it's not truffle oil as well I find no no need I love it I love it what do you think about shaving truffle on things I like truffle and I like it shaved more than grated to be honest but what I don't like is that restaurants that put truffle on the menu and they don't change the price even though it's in the summer and they use summer truffle who tastes like wood compared to the black Perigot truffle they just keep the price on and they taste nothing and then they drown the dish with truffle oil instead that go in Pobel man I like Pobel I like Pobel it's basically scamming yeah it is it is just putting truffle and then and then you go there in December if they're serious they have black truffle on instead that taste truffle what's up with that it's true okay what about Fantastique things you are proud of want to see more of and would like to celebrate I think it's fantastic that for the last 20-30 years chefs used to be seen as a little bit of low-lifer scum kind of thing to where the industry is today

1:14:18I think that's fantastic and it's also one of I don't see AI being a threat in the future. It's still one of these crafts where you need to where it comes down to human beings. And I think it's what I think also is fantastic with the restaurant industry is like for a while people were really going all in on trying to be part of this new smart tech world with wine lists on iPad, et cetera. But that's kind of gone now. It's back to, you know, the craft, you know, handmade, a big wine list or a menu with thick paper, expensive paper. That's kind of luxury today compared in this high-tech AI world, you know.

1:15:19that's fantastic I think that's someone made a paper someone thought about how the menu should be designed we're going backwards in time and I hate QR codes I completely agree that should go in the per bell quick let's rewind that goes in QR code all the per bell it's not COVID anymore give me something yeah oh gosh it's the worst it's the worst it is and it's soulless.

1:15:50The Gstaad Guy:Yeah, it is. I don't like a QR code. I also don't like a waiter who doesn't write down my order. And leave. Yeah, and I get stressed. I get stressed. And especially when it's a table of four. And to be honest, they need to write it down because once every third, they still miss something. Yeah. How do you feel about guests who try to change your dishes? Oh. I mean, constructive criticism I'm happily listening to let's leave it there let's leave it there what about the picky eater who's like you have too much dairy can I have the dish with less butter please yeah I mean people are entitled to think what they want to be honest but I'm not trying to to correct people in the dining room?

1:16:49Do I pretend to listen? Yes. Do I listen? No.

1:16:53The Gstaad Guy:Okay. Great to know. Yeah. Unless it's very good, you know, constructive criticism. And, but that's, that's very rarely you get that. You get more people's personal opinions and they're not going to change the whole restaurant due to one person, you know, it's not going to happen. Well Bjorn thank you so much for taking the time Thank you for being on this podcast and it's always great to see you and learn more about the great things you're working on and your view of the industry Thank you Exciting times Very exciting times Thank you for taking the time Thank you man Thank you for listening to this episode of the Stad Guy podcast If you're keen to learn more please follow along by engaging with our social channels on Instagram, TikTok Spotify, YouTube and Apple Podcasts.

1:17:50The Gstaad Guy:And we look forward to seeing you next week. Merci beaucoup. A la prochaine. And a big hug from the Start Guy.