Harry Kane: The Ballon d’Or Winner Nobody Saw Coming

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0:13Hi there, welcome along to another episode of High Performance. Myself and Damian Hughes are here. Hey Damian. Hi Jake, how are you mate? Really well, yourself?

0:21Jake Humphrey: Yeah, good. You've had a busy couple of weeks, eh? Yeah, you're right. I have been away for a couple of weeks traveling across the US with the family and while I was traveling, every day Seb kept saying to me when did they say who's won the Ballon d 'Or when did we find out who's won the Ballon d 'Or and I was so delighted that he and I were then able to go online and see Harry Kane winning the Ballon d 'Or that no one saw coming so look what we're going to do Damien over the next 20 minutes or so we're going to hear from Alex Inglethorpe who was pivotal in the upbringing of Harry Kane and the development of Harry Kane we're going to hear from Maurizio Pochettino and Jesus Perez who of course know him so well from his time at Tottenham Guillaume Jourday is going to talk to us about Harry Kane being the best penalty taker in the world.

1:04We're going to speak to Gareth Southgate, the standard setter, and how Harry Kane was the standard setter for him. We've also got a lovely clip to play out from a friend of yours who is a coach in the England set-up who sent you a message. And then we're going to finish with a bit of Andy Cole talking about we, not me, the importance of the mindset that a striker needs. So I think, as we talk about Harry Kane winning the Ballon d 'Or, That's a pretty good lineup of guests to tell us how and why he's done it, don't you?

1:30Jake Humphrey: That's an incredible lineup of guests. And the thing I like about it is the people that have covered the whole arc of his career, from people that were there right at the very start of his journey, right the way through to people that are still working with him today in the England set-up. So I think we'll see some consistent habits and practices from a brilliant bloke. So 73 goals in the last season. the first Englishman to win the Ballon d 'Or since Michael Owen in 2001, who's also been on high performance. The first player from the Bundesliga to win it since 1996. When did you first become aware of Harry Kane?

2:08Were you kind of knowledgeable about him before he became the Spurs in England sensation?

2:13Jake Humphrey: No, I'll tell you the first time I ever heard about him was when somebody told me that was working at West Bromwich Albion at the time about how he viewed himself in such professional terms that he was the first guy I'd heard about that employed a chef to come and work for him. And how did they know him? Just within football. Also, rumours were moving around in the game, were they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a guy called Keith Downing, who was sort of a well-respected coach at West Brom. He was telling me about him. This was in the 2013-14 season and he was saying that he'd heard about this guy that was just an uber professional.

2:56Jake Humphrey: He'd moved closer to the training ground to make sure that he got plenty of rest. He's, as I say, the work with the chef, the extras he was doing. There seemed to be quite a lot of whispers and that was the first time I'd ever heard of him. So I remember when Pochettino threw him in and I remember one game around Christmas when he scored two against Chelsea and like the formidable John Terry was up against him. I remember thinking he had something about him then. What about you? Because you were closest to the football world. Well, interestingly, so you're talking there 2013, 2014, that was really when Harry Kane got his opportunity right to be a Tottenham player.

3:32I think he came on against West Ham on the opening day of the Premier League season, didn't he? He was a substitute and he came on then and that was then the emergence, I guess, of him. He became the PFA Young Player of the Year very quickly. But interestingly, my knowledge of Harry Kane goes back only a couple of seasons from then. So obviously he joined Tottenham in 2009 and we can talk a bit about what happened earlier in his career because that was pivotal as well. But then he went on loan to Leighton Orient and then he went on loan to Millwall and then he came on loan to Norwich and he only made three appearances, I think, in his time at Norwich.

4:08And obviously I was a Norwich fan and there was all this talk then about, oh, there's this striker coming to us from the Premier League, coming to us from Tottenham. And I was, you're right, working in football at the time. I'd just left Formula One. I was hosting football coverage in the UK. So I knew quite a few of the Norwich lads. And after three or four days of him joining, I was talking to one of the Norwich players. I said, what about this player from Spurs? And they said, it's an interesting one. We can't work out what he brings. And I said, how do you mean? and the player that I was talking to said, well, his first touch isn't great.

4:43He's not very fast. He's not a great finisher. He doesn't seem particularly strong. We really need a goal scorer, so we're a little bit concerned. And actually that, what he believes at that time sort of played out in many ways. You know, Harry Kane didn't come and make an impact at Norwich. Then he obviously went on loan to Leicester after that and again, scored a couple of goals. He didn't score for Norwich, by the way, scored a couple of goals for Leicester. Then Tottenham happened, then Bayern happened, and then the Ballon d 'Or happened. And I think the reason to speak about that at the very beginning is that what we don't want to do is say, oh, Harry Kane struggled a bit earlier in his career and use it in a way to denigrate him.

5:22I think in so many ways, what happened early in Harry Kane's career is the beacon of light for every young footballer. It's the beacon of light for anyone in any business where they're not where they want to be. It's this reminder that you've said a million times, how could you get at something? is how long you're willing to be bad at it. For me, the story of Harry Kane in those early years, in those struggling years, moving around the lower divisions, being released by the Arsenal Academy, questioning his own ability, having to find some sort of inner strength, that to me is almost a more exciting element, actually, of the Harry Kane story than becoming England's great, becoming a Tottenham great, becoming a world great, becoming world-class, winning the Ballon d 'Or.

6:03It's like those lows, those downs, those struggles, those disappointments. that means the hurricane story is for everyone it isn't just for elite people and elite footballers

6:12Jake Humphrey: well there's a brilliant study that was done on this jake where they looked at sort of like youth prodigies in sport and found that very rarely they're the same people that end up being adult uh high performers they're two very different people the lessons that you learn in those early years of struggle of having to be resilient having to fight your way through having to deal with setbacks and disappointment are the things that actually arm a plate you when you become an adult and need to deal with them so I think Kane's a really good example of of of the idea that it's the late bloomer rather than the early bloomer that um that is likely to have a long sustainable career and that's why like when I text you when I listen to the speech that he gave on the stage when he accepted the Ballon d 'Or.

6:59Jake Humphrey: I just thought it was almost the epitome of so many of the messages that we've heard from so many of our high performers about resilience, the work in the shadows, the we not me mentality. And that's why I thought it was worth us just exploring it in a little bit more detail today. Well, let me share then a little bit of his speech. He addressed it to his family, actually. And he said to his kids, I don't think you'll fully maybe appreciate me bringing this trophy home. I'll bring a few others home, but this one is a special one. I can't wait to see you and celebrate with you. You know I want to set a good example being a father, but also being a professional and what it means to work hard, what it means to believe in yourself.

7:37I love you very much. I think when I heard him say that, for me, it was the fact that he addressed this to his family, right? Which is, I think a lot of footballers and a lot of athletes and a lot of elite performers, they realise the importance of family too late. They realise after their career, they realize when the lights have dimmed and when they're left on their own in a dark room, they're like, oh, okay. None of that was real. Like I never was anything more than just a human being. And now the only people left to my family, right? He's already realized that. And I think that's really important.

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10:18Jake Humphrey: Well, I'll tell you a funny story, Jake. I met Harry a couple of years ago when I went into the England camp and my daughter found this fantastic that literally the conversation we had was about Moana that had just come out as a film. And we were talking about, he'd been on holiday to the Bahamas with the family and he was asking me about, have you got family? and I was telling him and he went, oh, take your daughter to go and see Moana. And we ended up having a detailed conversation about it. This was when he was like in the camp, he was preparing for games. But again, it was family were front and centre of his world that that much was obvious.

10:57But I also think the other interesting thing there, and I say this as someone who has spent most of his career around elite athletes, but certainly the last 15 years around elite footballers, it's so rare they ask you about yourself. you can be there for half an hour and this isn't to denigrate footballers but this is because I think a lot of the time they exist in a world where all the information is coming their way and it's very rare that they suddenly go hey don't worry about me, tell me about yourself and I think that tells us a lot about Harry Kane there's also two other bits in the speech that I thought were really interesting from him the bit where he said I don't think you'll appreciate what it means for me to bring this trophy home but then he goes I'll bring a few others home right I love that, that self-belief right there Thank you, Harry.

11:39I believe you will. You'll bring many more home. But at the end when he said, what he didn't say was, this is what it means to be talented or this is what it means to be the best or this is what it means to be the greatest in the world. He said, this is what it means to work hard, what it means to believe in yourself. So can we go to a clip from a former guest of ours where I think what it means to work hard is summed up. This was our conversation with Alex Inglethorpe, who was the man that created that amazing conveyor belt of talent at the Liverpool Academy. but prior to that he was involved at Tottenham and he had the opportunity to see Harry Kane close up so should we go to it?

12:16We can

12:17Jake Humphrey: but can I just ask people to pay particular attention to to what he talks about so Harry says that you do all this when no one else is watching and I want you to pay attention to this is great coaching from Alex Inglethorpe he was watching just not interfering Harry Kane would have been a maverick for me when he was younger. When you were at Spurs? Yeah, yeah. And that sort of like whole group that came through there. I think Curtis, Trent, all of them are mavericks in as much as they think a little bit differently. I think a pivotal moment at Tottenham and, you know, I think, and by the way, for one second, I'm not saying there's a lot of people that work with players.

13:02It's never one person. And, you know, John McDermott should probably take a huge amount of credit for the time spent with Harry. But I think there was a time when, you know, a good under-16 player, very good under-17 player, etc. And one day, I think Brad Fiedel came in and said, he finishes like Robbie Fowler. And everyone's like, oh, does he? And there's suddenly a level of interest, like, what do you, you know, no back lift, hits the ball hard, finds corners. and it was it probably just shifted our thinking a little bit when you get feedback or someone says something like that it's like okay that's praise and how much is your job to get in the way and turn them into great players and how much is your job just to get out their way Harry Kane is a good example just to not stop them yeah I think you don't create good players I think you can stop it perhaps but I do think as you get a little bit older, you realise that some of your best coaching is where you just turn a blind eye.

14:07You know, I remember plenty of times, I was always pretty OCD myself around, clutching the footballs in. Comes from a background of being probably Watford as a kid and then Leatherhead, Leighton, Orient, Exeter. You count the footballs in because you're not getting replacements. And I can never understand why I was like, always two or three short. They're just driving me mad. I'd be in my office and you know it's sort of cottoned on that one day there's a bit of you know you could just see sort of like heads in the distance and all the rest of it and what they'd done is they were hiding the footballs in the bushes and then in the afternoon going out and having their own session and the best thing I ever did was just turn a blind eye and who was in that group?

14:50that would have probably been Andros Townsend Harry Kane Stephen Cook all of that lot you know and other lads that maybe didn't go on but there was just I think if there's a natural desire for kids to practice to want to do better. They've got a lad at Liverpool at the minute that actually played in the final who's exactly the same. You know, if I take my eye off him for a minute, I know he's going to be behind the fence with the football somewhere.

15:13Jake Humphrey: I mean, what Alex shared with us there about Harry's early days reminds me of a brilliant paper from a psychologist called Daniel Shablis. The paper's called The Mundanity of Excellence. Now, Shablis was looking at elite swimmers for this, but what he was basically seeing was that high performance is pretty boring. It's about going in and doing small, ordinary things consistently every single day for a long time. And that, to me, is a great example of Kane, not only finishing what I'd imagine would be fairly strenuous training with the professionals there at Spurs, but then staying behind afterwards to work on things.

15:53And do you remember when it was Alex told us about Brad Friedel, the goalkeeper told us that he was the first one to spot what the results of Kane's secret training were all about when he described him as being able to finish better than Robbie Fowler who was

16:07Jake Humphrey: regarded as almost like the best finisher in football at the time. I think it's the fact that Alex talks about turning a blind eye to it that I loved as well because I think there's any of us as as adults here when you see young people being willing to be autonomous to take on responsibility for getting better often it's like our instinct is to go and control it to go and sort of work out where are you doing it and don't do too much and be careful where you're doing it but what i loved about alex's story there was he just got out of the way he saw what was happening but he was willing just to allow it because he knew that that sort of choice to do that is likely to burn far longer than instructing or telling somebody they've got to do this level of training.

16:53And I think the lovely thing about that is that it reminds us that what Harry Kane is, is someone who is credible, he's true to his word and he's authentic. Because when someone wins the Ballon d 'Or and the only thing that they put onto their socials in an immediate aftermath is the quote, work hard in silence, let success be your noise, right? I think it's a fantastic quote, but it only works if that's been the reality. Here is one of the coaches at Tottenham telling us that that was the reality. And it wasn't just that Harry Kane had to work hard in silence and let success be the noise for a month or even a season.

17:29You imagine the silence that he had to live with after getting rejected by Arsenal, being released from Arsenal as a young player. And there's a great quote where his dad said to Harry at the time, apparently he said, look, don't worry, Harry, we'll just work harder. And it was in the, and it was the hard work in the darkness that was happening at that time. It was the work in the shadows because Harry Kane wasn't a lauded and celebrated footballer when he got released by Arsenal. He was just a kid. So he was in silence. He had to just carry on working hard in silence. I think the other thing that I thought was really interesting, Thierry Henry got quite a lot of criticism, right, for the way that he hosted the Ballon d 'Or.

18:07And it's a reminder that presenting stuff is interesting, right? What you think is funny or what you think works in a dressing room or in a meeting often doesn't quite work on stage because of nuance and because of people watching around the world and sort of in jokes or like, I don't know, almost trying to be too clever. When you're hosting something like the Ballon d 'Or, right, the only thing that matters is the Ballon d 'Or Award and the winners of the Ballon d 'Or and the people who are coming up on stage to get it. Even with a legend like Thierry Henry, the reality is who the hosts are doesn't matter.

18:40right you're just kind of you're just a conduit you just let let me as the host get you from a to b and from b to c and c to d and then good night like that is literally it you should be like a referee you shouldn't even be seen it's the night for the players it's not the night for the hosts and i think that was part of the reason why um a fair bit of criticism came his way um because it was just it was a bit much from the hosts really but anyway um sherry then did a social media post right kind of addressing some of the criticism and in it he addressed harry kane directly did you see it no no god and he said um you know some some people thought that he wasn't sort of fully respectful of certain elements and certain people in the show and at the and during the video he said to directly to harry kane he said look harry i want to speak about you work ethic is a talent working hard is a talent now i think that is very interesting coming from thierry omri who i would have in the top five most naturally gifted footballers the Premier League has ever seen.

19:39Let me also say, one of the hardest working footballers the Premier League has ever seen. So Thierry Henry did both. But I think we kind of, we all know, right, that Thierry Henry maybe had a talent and a skill level that Harry Kane doesn't necessarily have. I don't think even Harry would argue with that. I think even Harry would say, yeah, like my heart, my work ethic has been the differentiating factor in my career. So for Thierry to recognise that and say that work ethic and hard work is a talent, I think it's a really great message for people. We don't celebrate that as a talent enough. You know, we almost laud people's natural ability to do stuff.

20:15Oh, they were born to run. They were born to play football. They were born to jump. They were born to swim. Is that as laudable as they've had to learn how to run? They've had to learn how to swim. They've had to learn how to jump. I think the latter is what we should be celebrating more as human beings rather than the former, personally.

20:34Jake Humphrey: Yeah, definitely. We know this. I mean, the famous Ericsson's 10 ,000-hour rule that Malcolm Gladwell populised, most people sort of question it. But Ericsson did it with sort of like musicians and he looked at like, if you take a novice, something like 5 ,000 hours gets you to a decent level. It's 10 ,000 hours where it gets you to a world-class level when you're playing music. Now, I know it doesn't always extrapolate out to sport, but the essence of the point about being willing to just spend hours honing your craft, being willing to work that little bit harder than what your peers are doing to get better at a certain granular level of detail, does distinguish it.

21:17Jake Humphrey: Remember Alan Wynne-Jones, the most capped rugby union player in that sports history, told us that if he had one talent, it was his ability to outwork the opposition. we know that this is there and I'm really glad to hear somebody that like you say would often assume to be one of the most prodigiously naturally gifted players of his generation Thierry Henry acknowledged that actually it's hard work that is the real difference Shall we get another clip? I like the idea of positioning that Shane Parrish spoke to us about about you can be really gifted as we've just been talking about Thierry Henry but ultimately you need to be in the right place when opportunity finds it And I think the conversation we had with Mauricio Pochettino and his assistant, Jesus Perez, the two coaches that were willing to put their reputation and neck on the line by giving Harry Kane a shot, leading the front line at Tottenham, is worth listening to in more detail.

22:16But the club wasn't sure about Harry Kane's future and they wanted to sign a third striker. and we said no we don't need that third striker we have Harry Kane no to give the space yeah but have no experience ok and we were so lucky because the club made an offer for it was well back in this moment I think Manchester United was well back but Giroud got injured I think it was in Arsenal and Arsenal make another offer or bigger offer and Guelbe sign for Arsenal. And was lucky because we didn't bring Guelbe and was the space for Harry Kane. I don't know if I explained one day or not, but that was the truth.

23:10And when that happened, that said the universe was a combination from the universe with us. I was lucky Harry Kane, no? because that happened because something special that we were special or we are special. That is, okay, Harry Kane is going to be in the first team, he's not going to be alone and he's going to have the career that after, you know, and develop his skill with us. Now, this is very interesting, Damien, because I think that when Maurizio talks about the fact that he was the guy to back Harry Kane and to say, look, we have this guy, Harry Kane, here. Maybe we should be supporting him.

23:55I think that that does two things. Obviously, it gives Harry Kane an opportunity. And in life, the only thing that we can take is the opportunity that's in front of us. You know, we talk often about make your own opportunities. That's an awful lot harder than taking the opportunity that finally gets given to you. So I think all the credit goes to Harry Kane for taking that opportunity. But I also think that there's something else happening here, which is when someone like Maurizio, who was so inspiring and so inspirational for those players turns around and says to Harry, you're going to get a shot to play here.

24:27I think that is a game-changing moment in Harry Kane's career. And we know that he had the opportunity to spend time with David Beckham, who was his childhood hero, with Wayne Rooney, who was his first England captain, with Gareth Southgate, who absolutely nurtured Harry Kane. Some amazing leaders on the pitch around him. You look at Hugo Lloris, Manuel Neuer, Thomas Muller now, Joshua Kimmich at Bayern Munich, you know, Declan Rice and Jude Bellingham are kind of like the next generation of leaders all coming through. Thomas Tuchel now will be one of his mentors at England. I honestly look at that Jesus Perez and Maurizio Pochettino duo at Tottenham.

25:06And as much as Harry Kane has done this, I do wonder whether it would have happened without those two in his life. I think there's something really significant that happened to Harry Kane when he spent time in very close quarters with Maurizio Pochettino that shouldn't be overlooked.

25:22Jake Humphrey: Yeah, well, I remember reading in Maurizio's diary that he wrote, he has a lovely line where he talks about he had to give Kane some fairly strident feedback about his lifestyle quite early on when he took over there. And then he then describes him as a 21-year-old with the lifestyle and habits of a 40-year-old, I think, that what he loved about him was that he had to give him that feedback and he learned and did something about it really quickly. So as a coach, you must be looking at that and going, this guy is listening, this guy is switched on, this guy is willing to embrace it, he's got a humility.

25:58Jake Humphrey: So you know there that you've got mouldable clay that you can work with. So their excitement levels, I think, were at the heart of... Do you remember when we spoke to Mauricio and Jesus on the second occasion where they told us a story when the club wanted to sign Danny Welbeck and they resisted it and they went, no, no, we've got this guy Kane here that will be good if we just give him an opportunity. They didn't do that on blind faith. They were doing that on what they were seeing and what they were hearing and what they were witnessing on a daily basis from him themselves. But should we have a listen to them so they describe a small word with a big impact, trust.

26:43Jake Humphrey: Well, again, it was interesting that Jesus told us about the occasion that the club had the opportunity to sign another striker and they decided to resist it because they knew and had the faith in Harry. Let's listen to him explain it. I do remember a meeting that was tough with the club in terms of communication, because it was public, like Welbeck could come join the team. So therefore, maybe Harry, you know, himself would like to go. But once Welbeck signed for Arsenal, like the club suggested that Mauricio should give a statement, say, I'm happy with the three strikers. And Mauricio said, it's not necessary for me to say, because if I'm saying that and giving the impression to Harry, that I really wanted another one to come and not him.

27:39So from day one, I was very comfortable for Harry to stay with us and to take time to succeed. So that statement that never came out, it was super important to protect Harry and also to give the signal that I really trust you.

28:00Jake Humphrey: Now what's really interesting to me there is that it's that small word that Jesus says at the end that has a big impact. He talks about, I trust you. And that links to the research from an Israeli psychologist called Dov Aden that in the early 1980s, he went and did some work with the army and they saw that instructors that were told trainees that were coming through had high potential. They were actually chosen at random. But those that they were told had high potential as leaders actually ended up performing far better over the course of their induction. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

28:39hey it's jay comfrey here from the high performance podcast and support for this show is brought to you by walden university do you ever catch yourself thinking what if i could go after the thing i actually want and really make a difference in this life well you're not alone and that's exactly why we want to tell you about walden university for over 50 years walden has helped working adults like you get the w with the knowledge and skills to build the future you want and create meaningful change. If you've been waiting for the right moment, maybe this is it. Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step.

29:14Walden University, set a course for change, certified to operate by Shev. Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use. like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

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30:28Jake Humphrey: and it was because that the conductors had high expectations and therefore they treated those high potential people with more trust gave them more opportunities and better feedback i mean there's some other interesting research from david yeager and jeffrey cohen in 2014 that said if you had one sentence to feedback of students what you see is their performance naturally improves and the one sentence is if the teacher says i've got high standards and i believe that you're capable of reaching them let me offer you some thoughts what they found is that the quality of the of what students um delivered tended to be nearly double what it was before that so we're seeing small coaching elements here in what in what uh hazus and mamishio are talking about jake we're talking about high levels of trust and really good quality feedback that believes somebody is capable of reaching those high standards and that's why I think it was significant in Harry's speech when he accepted the award that he did list all the coaches that had played a role in his career I think he's savvy enough to recognize the impact of what those people did to help him yeah I think it's really interesting I remember actually I mean we're talking about very different levels in life here but when I was doing children's BBC and got asked to host Formula One yeah I absolutely didn't believe that it was the job for me I just thought I went to China to see Steve Ryder who was my predecessor hosting the F1 coverage yeah I stood in a garage and watched him and I just thought that's beyond my capabilities like he was on his own in a pit lane one assistant producer one camera one monitor and one pundit and he was holding the whole thing together through his earpieces live no auto cue no script nothing and I just thought I don't have that so I actually said to the guy that was the the main guy at the BBC when I went back I said I'm really worried that I haven't got the ability to do this and it was a guy called Nile Sloan and he and he said to me like I've been a senior producer in sport for 30 years I know you have the ability to do this so why don't you forget about whether you have and accept that I know you have and see where that's brilliant and it was the best thing anyone ever said because then it gave me freedom not to worry about the fact that I didn't think I was going to do that job but to go well he knows what he's talking about and he does and I think really that's happened with Harry Kane.

32:47I think people like Hesers and Potch have said to him, look, we believe this there. And he probably, when they were going after Danny Welbook or when he wasn't scoring and wasn't playing, he probably didn't believe. That's the reality, right?

32:59Jake Humphrey: Yeah. And I think it served him to not believe because it kept him working. But for them to go, we do, was the game changer. Well, I mean, just follow up on that. John McDermott is the technical director of the FA now, but he was the head of Spurs Academy for a long time and he's an amazing bloke. And he says that when he was 13, Harry's agility levels were 10 % down on all the other kids in his group. And his ability to jump was 30 % less than those in the group as well. He says he wasn't fast and he describes him as the brunt of the litter. So I think that... Honestly? Yeah, yeah, that's the way that the head of the academy saw him at the time.

33:44Jake Humphrey: Do you think Harry knew that this was the general feeling? No, I don't think that they would, like knowing John is incredibly kind, decent man. So I don't think he would ever have allowed him to have been described like that at the time. I think he's happy to say it now because I think he probably puts a fire under Harry. I think he probably loves that idea that he's come from being the runt of the litter to being the head of the pride. but I certainly like the idea that he was a guy that sort of just had something about him. They saw some resilience, that grit, that willingness to keep on showing up week after week when he was obviously so much slower, so much less developed than some of his peer group because the easy excuse there is, I'll come and find something else to do.

34:35Jake Humphrey: I'll go somewhere else. But the fact that he was willing to live with that discomfort to me is what they were probably seeing in him that this lad's got a grit that we can sort of work with well let's go to another clip now from guillet jordet who is for people that don't know who guillet is um he wrote a book fascinating book about penalty taking he is the king of penalties he studies penalties he is like what did i call him on the episode of penalty pervert he's like obsessed he's utterly obsessed with penalty taking and penalty kicks and there's something that we can learn from the conversation we had with him as well because i think harry kane doesn't get to where he is today if he has a fixed mindset if he has a um one approach to his career that he had at 12 that he still has when he's in his 30s um and actually kia describes watching harry kane take penalties and realizing that this is a man who adapts and changes his approach to football to try and be the best he can be so here is part of our conversation with the fascinating Guillaume Jourday, which you can also hear the full episode of.

35:37It was episode 419 of High Performance. Here he is. Who do you believe is the best penalty taker in the world? Harry Kane. Why? So he scores in the high 80s in terms of his goal percentage. And the average is just below 80. So he's 10 % more or less above the average. He has delivered penalties at the highest level in the Premier League, in Bundesliga, for now more than a decade. And the process fascinates me with Harry Kane. So he has a very set pre-shot routine. The way he sets up a penalty has been now almost identical for 15 years. He stands in the same way. He looks in the same way. He breathes in the same way.

36:32he starts with the same foot it's like the same rhythm everything is the same when you go into the depth of that you will find nuances that he will change but they're nuances so he has like this this core setup that is very stable and it's stable and robust and that's what you want from a psychological point of view and I actually have a personal story with this as well because I so I published my book now two years ago in the spring of 24. And I devoted a big chunk of a chapter to Harry Kane. So one thing was the routine that he has, the way he sets up the kicks, but also the technique that he used because he was the best kind of proponent for what I call, or the field calls, the goalkeeper independent shot.

37:28So that's the type of shot where you've decided beforehand where to shoot. So I'm going to go, you know, high left. You just put your head on the ball. You make sure to hit it cleanly and get it to that spot on the left side with as much precision and pace as you can muster. Harry Kane did that for 10 years and he did it brilliantly. No one had more pace. No one had more precision. Beautiful shots. But then you could see kind of towards the end of this kind of tenure that some goalkeepers were on to him. So I have this section in the book about him. I'm two days away from handing in the very, very final manuscript.

38:10Very final manuscript, no return. I'm watching, I'm with friends at this football bar in Norway, in Oslo, and I'm watching the Champions League game between Bayern Munich and Arsenal. Penalty kick Bayern Munich. Harry Kane steps up. Okay, I'm like, we're going to see. He's going to show everything that I have in my book, I'm thinking. And then he uses a completely different technique. He scores, and I'm literally on the table jumping, not because he scored, people around me thought it was because of that, but because he used a different technique. What he did now was that he looked at the goalkeeper.

38:47So he approached the ball, almost stopped before he got to the ball, looked at the goalkeeper, let the goalkeeper make a move to the side, and then simply rolled it in the other side of the net, which is the goalkeeper-dependent technique. And this is a huge event for the best penalty taker in the world to do something like this. So actually, after that conversation, we were interested to research this, right, Damien? And we realized that Harry Kane had actually spoken to a broadcaster and said to them that he used to go for power and precision. And then when he missed against France in Qatar, he felt there was something he could change, especially when taking two penalties in one game, which is interesting so he borrowed from Neymar and Balotelli watch the keeper then commit um so he was already one of the best strikers in the world he was already playing for his country at the world cup he was already one of the greats but knew there was a way to improve knew there was a way to be better and I think this is what's interesting is like Harry Kane's penalty taking wasn't not working yeah right so what's the secret in life I guess to changing something that is already working knowing the moment to think actually this is good but it can even be better

40:00Jake Humphrey: yeah well i mean jimmy carr said it to us recently that good is the enemy of the best i think when you're good there's a tendency to almost rest on your laurels and think that you know i don't need to really focus on this aspect of it but what i love about this is that he was willing to uh to to look at ways and enhancing it and it came from a failure it came from that quarterfinal against France in the World Cup in Qatar, where he scored the first penalty and missed the second one. And I remember Kane also explaining in that interview that people were looking for what had happened differently.

40:35Jake Humphrey: Jordan Henderson didn't speak to him on the second time, but he did on the first. And what was significant was Kane refused to believe in that superstition. He said that he needed to have a different technique to mix it up with rather than just going for uh for power and there's it reminded me of there's a brilliant book by a guy called joshua fur called moonwalking with einstein where he talks about the okay plateau and that's the place where where when we get to good enough we can it's easy to switch to autopilot and yet it's experts are willing to go back and pull apart what they know to look at how do we enhance it how do we mix it up how do we make it a little bit different and there's something there at the very heart of it that talks about humility that we've seen from Kane time and time again that humility to not assume that where you are now is where you're always going to be that you can keep improving you can keep looking for uh for ways to get better I think it's a it's a great almost a symbol of what the guy stands for in general.

41:41Let's hear now from a couple of people that he's shared an England dressing room with. One was his manager, one was a teammate. And this idea that being a captain isn't about wearing an armband, it's about setting the standard. Here is the former England coach, Gareth Southgate. Your senior players do a lot of the job for you as well because their day-to-day habits, the way they are. We're very fortunate in our most experienced players, Kane, Henderson, as an example, captain, vice-captain. They're unquestionable in their professionalism. They're unquestionable in their preparation. They want the team to do well.

42:23Of course, they've got individual motivation, but there isn't a young player that could come in to the squad and watch those two and think, well actually they they they duck you know they duck the gym session or they duck the recovery or not a chance so when you've got those role models within the group new players come in they see how you know the first thing you do in a new group is how's it how does it work here how's it done and the senior players create that this plays so nicely damien to a phrase that i only first learned when i started working with you this idea of the cultural architect and I remember you showing me a video, was it of Carlos Puyol?

43:04Yes. Yeah, it was Carlos Puyol playing for Barcelona and all sorts of stuff was going on on the pitch. Players weren't performing in the right way. They weren't doing the right things and every single clip that you showed me, it was Carlos Puyol talking to the player, pulling the player up. There's one moment where a player's doing something and he like slaps him around the back of the head and reminds him what it means to play for Barcelona. And I think that this is what was really important and very interesting about Harry Kane is we're lording what Harry Kane has done in the moment. I think the standard that Harry Kane has set as an England player now filters down for decades because it is a whole new standard that this is what it means now to play for England.

43:41This is what commitment looks like. This is what sacrifice looked like. This is what hard work looks like. And I don't think that you lose that as Harry Kane retires or when he retires, because as we're about to hear, it filters into other players in the group, right?

43:54Jake Humphrey: Yeah, definitely. So Sam Walker wrote a brilliant book on this called the captain class where he went and studied like the greatest sports teams of all sports in the whole of history. And he found that you had cultural architects, a core group of leaders that set the standard in every one of these groups. And Kane's definitely one of them. Let's listen to one of his teammates, Kieran Trippier, who played with him at Tottenham and then with England, talk about the impact that it had on him and the other members of the dressing room. I can only speak on Harry Kane's behalf really because he's probably one of the most professional players I play with if I'm honest and just the way he is from when he arrives through the building to going in the gym doing extras again eating the right things and you know the recovering and yeah I used to watch him a lot when I was there because obviously it was Harry Kane weren't it so Was he captain at the time?

44:50No Lloris was captain How would Harry deliver news to you if he didn't think you were pulling your weight or playing well enough? Yeah. And how would he do that? He'd pull you to one side, maybe. Not in like an aggressive way. He was just trying to help, you know, because he wanted the best. He wanted everyone to train the best possible way, really. Yeah, so he would do it in a good way, H. H is a good guy.

45:18Jake Humphrey: I love that. I like the fact that I remember watching, did you ever watch that Spurs documentary behind the scenes when Jose Mourinho was in? Oh, I did. Yeah, and I remember feeling sorry for Kane there in some ways because they filmed him when he was the captain and he wasn't the best with the team talks. It was a lot of shouting and a lot of swearing. I remember thinking that the context there didn't capture what we were hearing about him, that he wasn't a guy to stand up and make Churchillian speeches. He was just somebody that showed up with his example and his dedication and his discipline.

45:55Jake Humphrey: And I don't feel it captured that as effectively as it could have done. And that's why I like speaking to people that have shared the dressing room, like Kieran, with him, who speak about him both on the record and off it so glowingly. I remember people making memes out of those team talks, laughing at them. And it's like, I agree with you that it doesn't even remotely get close to the impact that Harry Kane had. And I think also, let's also remind ourselves, right, that there are different ways to lead. Some leaders lead in that moment where you're like, you know, a Terry Butcher type leader where you've got the blood coming off your forehead and your shirt's splattered with blood and you're leading the players into battle kind of a bit like on any given Sunday, you know, you've got to die for that inch kind of speech.

46:42that's the leadership of some great players the leadership of other great players is a quieter leadership right it's leading by example it's leading by standard it's leading with a quiet conversation and i would argue that and i don't see harry kane's team talks now but i would argue that they're still not necessarily the kind of team talks where you and i would go wow i see now why he's so good because i don't think that those i don't think that in those moments we see like the ultimate version of Harry Kane. I think he does his work in a different kind of way. And I think that's up to us, right?

47:14To realise that being successful in sport particularly is not just about shouting the loudest and swearing the most and getting your players to thump their chests. Yes, you can be like a Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp type manager, or you can be a Gareth Southgate, Eddie Howe type manager. They're very, very different approaches to the game. They're equally successful and equally impactful. And I think that, you know, Harry Kane, it almost felt like he was trying to play the role of a loud, shouty captain. And actually, you know what, it's not necessarily where you can have an impact, but all the other stuff you do really does.

47:54Jake Humphrey: Yeah, definitely. Shall we hear from someone else who has shared a dressing room very recently with Harry, a friend of yours, and you kindly managed to get him to send us a voice note with his thoughts after the Ballon d 'Or win. Is that cool? Yeah, please. Just to explain, we've had Justin Cochran on the podcast. He's an incredible coach. He's been working with Thomas Frank more recently at Spurs and at Brentford before that. But he's been around Manchester United. He was at the Tottenham Academy for a long time. And now he's working with Thomas Tuchel, Anthony Barry and the coaching staff there with England.

48:31Jake Humphrey: and I dropped him a line on the back of Harry's victory just to ask what his reflections were as a coach, somebody that's seen him from those early days through to where he is now.

48:44And he shared this with us. I joined Tottenham in 2009 as a youth coach and Harry would have been in the youth team then, I reckon. And you follow the young players with potential and you could see that he was an incredible player, not just a top finisher but with high football IQ. He transitioned into the 21s and out on loan and then made the breakthrough into the first team and he never looked back from there. His goal record suggests that. And you could see how he'd become the complete player. When I got to work with him, which is when I joined the FA in 2025, you could see now that his dedication to his craft, his seriousness in training and then his ability to lead others and lead by example and what a fantastic footballer he is and deservedly so winning the Ballon d 'Or.

49:33He's an example to any young player, any young player who maybe is not the gold medalist at 13, 14 or 15, but someone who just puts the work in, puts the hard yards in, develops their craft and then goes on to be extremely successful as Harry is. What a player and still more to come. Still more to come. So, yeah, what a player he is. well I think in many ways Damien that's the perfect message isn't it dimension of dedication to craft the seriousness in training the ability to lead others leading by example I mean what we haven't spoken about actually is we also have to remember like what a player Harry Kane is I think in some ways a lot of the conversation has been about his work ethic and his ability to dig in and his ability to keep going when others said he shouldn't but let's just have a moment please to realize the level that that has taken him to like the guy is lethal lethal with his mindset lethal with his finishing he's one of those players and look you're a united fan i'm a norwich fan you know over the years there are certain players maybe we're about to hear from one who when they get the ball with any kind of sniff of an opportunity you know that's going to be a goal yeah yeah right you just know and we haven't had as many at norwich as you have had a man united but there is one at Man United who's joined us on the podcast maybe it's an apt moment to hear what he has to say here is the great Andy Cole I think my time at Newcastle was about me scoring goals everyone wanted me to score all the goals Man United you play in a team and the team ethic is what we do everyone buys into it it's not about I it's about us and you play the way you play and that took me a bit of time to transition into playing from Newcastle when the team was built for me to play in a team that's no longer built for me.

51:21But I have to build myself and integrate myself into a team

51:24Jake Humphrey: to make myself a better player. I mean, what a great clip that was, Andy, talking about the idea of the we-not-me mentality because that was captured beautifully in Harry's speech as well where he first of all goes up and talks about his wife and his children and then he lists off 15 coaches. He doesn't talk about a single one of his goals or his awards or his achievements, he goes and lists off the 15 coaches from the very start of his journey in football through to the guys that are working with him currently. If that's not an example of the we, not me mentality in action, I don't know what is.

52:02Jake Humphrey: James Pennebacher, the psychologist, wrote a book called The Secret Life of Pronouns and he's looked at politicians and people with high status in society and he's found that people with higher status actually refer to themselves far less. and I think there's something about Harry Kane there that given the level at which he's operating, he's definitely a guy that's got the self-confidence and the self-assurance. He doesn't need to make it about himself. He's happy to shine a light on others and show the impact that other people have had in lifting him up. There's been other people that have helped him rise.

52:36And look, we exist in a world where all we're seeing these days is perfection, right? Every time you turn on social media, you see people who can dance really well, who can cook really well, who can sing amazingly well. And often they're really young because if someone has a talent, they want to show it. Well, the only way to show your talents 20 or 30 years ago was to get to the point where the world saw them. These days, you can show your talent at any given moment by getting out your phone and filming it, which then means that all the rest of us think that our normal everyday lives, which used to be okay, are now lives of failure and struggle, right?

53:07So I think the story from Harry Kane that this isn't about being born with God-given talent, this isn't about being the best in the world at 18, this isn't about having all the self-belief and all the talent so that your success is inevitable that actually this is about something far more real this is about digging in it is about having patience it's about trusting people around you and then when you do finally get the the plaudits that you deserve which are the headlines and the goals and the ballon doors that in that moment you remember that really the truth about your success is people and it's been the coaches over the years but in that speech when he picked up his Ballon d 'Or for him to mention his family, his close family, I think is a great reminder of actually what really matters in life.

53:52And if you ask Harry Kane to choose every goal, every trophy in the Ballon d 'Or or his family, it's clear which one he would choose. And I think there's a message for all of us there is that success doesn't give us what relationships give us. And that's probably a good reminder in this world that maybe at times lords and celebrates the wrong things.

54:09Jake Humphrey: Yeah, definitely. I think I'd like I read an article in The Athletic that said that the Ballon d 'Or now is like a political rally where you get lots of individuals sort of making their case and almost like delivering manifestos of why they should be the number one and the one exception this year was Harry Kane the one that just refused to do it because he recognised that it wasn't about individual glory it was about the team being successful at the same time and how you define your team, whether it's your family, your colleagues, the people that matter most to you in your life. That's a really important question that we all have to answer at some stage.

54:49Jake Humphrey: And it seems like he's already done that thinking and come to some pretty firm conclusions. Listen, I really enjoyed that conversation. And I hope you enjoyed it too. And I hope that Harry Kane listens to this because we've asked on a few occasions, haven't we, for Harry Kane to join us on High Performance over the last seven or so years. I mean even more than ever I would love to make it happen I think we could have a conversation that Harry just wouldn't have on any other football podcast you know I think we would bring a different viewpoint to this with him and I'd really love to make it happen so this is my very public unapologetic embarrassing plea that if Harry Kane or any of his team if Charlie if anyone hears this conversation I'd love them to allow us a bit of time with Harry to share the kind of messages that go far beyond football Yeah we could even talk about Moana too Harry if you're listening.

55:38Yes! Which was not anything like, well, we won't talk though about the live action version of Moana because I've never seen that shit in my... Anyway, that's a whole different story. Damien, I really appreciate your time.

55:49Jake Humphrey: As always, Jake, I love it. Thank you, mate. Thank you, buddy. I hope you enjoy it too. Please, if you enjoyed this conversation, if it's given you a different viewpoint on what Harry Kane's achieved or it's helped you look at success in a different way, please just pass it on to someone. Please just share it with someone. It really helps our channel grow and that is the most important thing for us. If we can keep on growing, then we can keep on bringing you conversations like this and attracting incredible guests to the show. Let me remind you that the amazing Lewis Moody was released on Monday.

56:17The conversation with him about living with motor neurone disease. Very moving, very emotional, but really powerful episode. So if you've got time, I would love you to check that out wherever you get your podcasts. Of course, you can watch it on YouTube. But on behalf of the whole team, myself and Damien, thanks so much for watching. stay humble, curious, and empathetic, and we'll see you next time.

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58:23Thank you so much for enjoying today's episode of High Performance. Just a reminder, you can also sign up for our ad-free service at Apple, Spotify, or on the High Performance website.