Mauricio Pochettino & Jesús Pérez: What Man United Fans Can Expect

0:00Hey, before we get going, let me tell you that you can listen to this episode totally ad-free. And right now, there's a free trial. So you can sign up on Apple, on Spotify or on the High Performance website. Champion League and Premier League for me is a thing that I don't know how, but I'm going to achieve for sure. Do you believe, really believe that one day you will win the Premier League as a manager? Yes. Man United fans this one is for you which obviously Damien means that this one is very much for you your initial reaction then Maurizio Pochettino was the new Manchester United manager I'm pleased I think he's a man that was incredibly warm his focus on universal energy the culture that he creates and shapes at any club that he goes into and his passion for making people better can only be a good thing and we know all of this of course because Maurizio Pochettino is a friend of the show, along with his ever-present assistant, Jesus Perez.

0:57He's been on the show twice. We've kept in constant touch with the both of them during their time in the Premier League, during their time managing the USA national team. We've loved getting the chance to sit down on more than one occasion and speak to Maurizio, but also Jesus as well. This is about as close as you will get, right, to sitting in on a staff meeting on the very first day at Carrington. So if you're a lifelong red, I guess you're asking the question, what can fans expect from Maurizio and Jesus? Well, we're about to tell them. Six o 'clock in the morning, the two of them are going through the squad from player number one to number 25.

1:30And they won't just be talking about them physically and tactically, but they'll be talking about how each player is feeling. And it's a belief that tactics are the easy part because every coach knows the same things. The real job, Maurizio says, is building a place where players want to belong. And that is so important at the moment for Manchester United. What you're about to hear from Maurizio and also Jesus is what happened when they walked into Chelsea. Now, remember, that was a squad that just finished 12th. So it's so relevant to walking into the Manchester United setup. They explained to us why they refused to build the house from the roof.

2:07You'll find out what that means. And obviously, there are some amazing players at Manchester United, right, that want a great opportunity. Well, you will hear what Cole Palmer said to them when they joined Chelsea in their office after just a handful of training sessions. but also what it was like managing the egos of Messi, Neymar and Mbappe all in one dressing room. And there's a brilliant line that all fellow United fans might want to hear. When we asked Mauricio if he was ever going to win the Premier League again, he said, I don't know how, I don't know in which club, but I'm going to achieve it for sure.

2:37And now he's back in the Premier League. Right, let's start this chat then with something that again is so relevant to Manchester United today. We're going to start at Tottenham. with a young striker that the club just wasn't too sure about. And I think this gives you Man United fans the perfect insight into the way that this guy's going to run your football club. Welcome back to High Performance. Maurizio Pochettino alongside Jesus Perez.

3:08I wanted to talk about when you first arrived at Tottenham together. And Harry Kane was on the very fringes of the Tottenham squad. So before you arrived, he'd scored three Premier League goals. By the end of your first season, together, looking after him and coaching him, he'd scored 21 goals. Do you both remember when was the first time that you saw Harry and thought, there's something special here? We arrived and it's not through data. It's through your eyes and your gut feel. It's about a small, very small thing. a touch of the ball, how finish in one action, or one answer when you ask something, you know, or how behave when he's in the lunch or in the breakfast, or how he dress when he arrives, how he move in the gym.

4:02It's plenty of details, a small thing, that you pay attention, you know, like it was him, like it was Ryan Mason or different players, you know, that we met when we arrived, you know. When we arrived at Tottenham, when we saw Harry Kane, we said, no, he's a player that we need. He's young. He needs to stay with us. But I remember that Adebayor was Soldado and was him. But the club wasn't sure about Harry Kane's future, and they wanted to sign a third striker. And we said, no, we don't need that third striker. We have Harry Kane, no? to give the space. Yeah, but have no experience. Okay. And we were so lucky because the club made an offer for...

4:55It was well back in this moment. I think Manchester United was well back. But Giroud got insured. I think it was in Arsenal. And Arsenal make another offer or bigger offer and Gualbe signed for Arsenal. And was lucky was lucky because we didn't bring Welbeck and was the space for Harry Kane. I don't know if I explained one day or not, but that was the truth. And when that happened, the universe was a confirmation from the universe with us. I was lucky Harry Kane, no? Because that happened because something special that we were special or we are special. That is, okay, Harry Kane is going to be in the first team.

5:42is not going to be alone and he's going to be, you know, and he's going to have the career that after, you know, and develop his skill with us. But when we explain to the club we want him on the squad, it was difficult to convince because the most difficult thing in football is to anticipate the things. See that Hurricane today is one of the best strikers in the world. It's easy. no but to anticipate or to project the hurricane in one year is going to be one of the best strikers in England no they say you are guessing no you are you have no idea but that is one of also our skills that we have and we have that you know complicity with the universe that sometimes this confirmation make that that happen in this moment and we gave what what Harry deserved no the possibility to be one of the best strikers in the world.

6:45So beyond the anticipation, what do you both feel you offered Harry that has allowed him to go on and become one of the greatest strikers of all time? No, for me, the determination is one of the things. His mindset, he was determined to succeed. He was so focused, of course, was to have the possibility to create a good platform for him to evolve. But I think what he achieved and how he did was amazing because his mindset, he was so determined to be successful. And I think for me, it's one of the best skills apart of the... and others know, but he was so strong in his mind. And I think it was key as well, in that moment, the way Mauricio protected Harry.

7:46Because I do remember a meeting that was tough with the club in terms of communication, because it was public, like Welbeck could come join the team. So therefore, maybe Harry himself would like to go. So, but once Welbeck signed for Arsenal, like the club suggested that Mauricio should give a statement, say, I'm happy with the three strikers. And Mauricio said, it's not necessary for me to say, because if I'm saying that and giving the impression to Harry that I really wanted another one to come and not him. So from day one, I was very comfortable for Harry to stay with us and to take time to succeed.

8:31to succeed. So, that statement that never came out, it was super important to protect Harry and also to give the signal that I really trust you. It's not necessary for me to say that. You know? So, and there are those things on management that no one can see but define the career of a player in this case. I agree. It's true. What difference would it have made if that statement had gone out? You think that would have put more pressure on Harry? Yeah, it looks like the statement was to protect ourselves. Like, we are happy with these guys, but why you are taking a statement, you know, why you're putting a statement, it's because probably you were negotiating with another one.

9:17Now we can talk because it's in the past. I am happy with these three. I am happy. The club that was this signal, if I need to make a statement, it's because we're really worried. the people seeing that he was so tough with Harry at that time because Harry came a game in Belgrade I think and then on the way back he wasn't included on the Premier League game the weekend after and Harry knocking his door saying why I'm not in the squad now I said okay because you are not performing and your attitude is not right and I said okay out and then came with... It wasn't easy for him. No, it wasn't easy.

10:06It wasn't easy because sometimes the young player becomes confused, no? Yeah, but that is part of the, you know, to provide, you know, the young player the tools to perform and to become strong.

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12:48That is the emotional part of this game that you need to have the skills to know when. Because it's really, really key. You cannot protect when the player deserves to be, you know, not protected. Or when you need to push, when you don't need to push. You need to give some confidence on some time you need to challenge or some time you don't need to challenge. That is about your skills. It's our decision. It's in the way that we work daily. every day because every day we arrive to maybe 6 o 'clock the last time in Chelsea we arrive at 6 o 'clock in the morning and we start to talk from the number 1 to 25 and we in 2 hours maybe talking about the necessities how we we saw the day before how we plan to see the player in which level mental physical technical tactical knowledge about the game if we need to talk about the game and we need to talk about different scenes.

13:52And I think that is being consistent, talking every day, look after the player, every single player, with the necessity. And then it was so easy because one of the things that we made this first day is to spend time with every single player. First, second day, third day. And spend some players five minutes with another player one hour. Depends on the connection with the player and the necessity or how they are open or not. But that is about the knowledge, not the external, you know, know how they are in the aesthetic way, but only how they feel, how they think, the mindset, how sensitive, you know, these type of things that are really important after in the way that you are going to communicate with.

14:40Because it's not the same to speak with Harry Kane that Dele Alli or, you know, or Sean Bertoggen, or Ugo Lloris, or Heumannson, or Christian Eriksen, you know, one came from Denmark, another from France, different, you know, background, everything. And that is for me is the skill that like a coaching staff is the principal thing, is the most important thing. And then it's data, it's another, it's this, it's tactic, but if you don't have this skill in your group of people that is going to manage person, people and I think you can win games you can win some trophy but you are not going to be successful.

15:27Those strategies are natural now but I learned so much from him especially on the readiness for a young player probably because he made the debut in a big team in Argentina when he was so young and he has this capacity to project part of his career on the young player. And always he says, the player starts to play when he's ready, when the group accepts the young player. And it's a good KPI. There are no reports that say that. But when the group says, hey coach, the young guy is doing well, you know, it's a senior. It's a KPI that says, okay, this guy is ready. And then there are a lot of things on that journey that you need to face.

16:14I mean, as an example, we can use Levi. Cowie wasn't sure to come back to Chelsea. And during the summer, we were talking to him. He was in the Euros, I think. In the Euros, yes. You know? The Euros. And it was really hard to convince him to come back, you know, for whatever happened in the past. But then they had an amazing connection. And I do remember conversations where he says, listen, all the big centre-backs in the world, you know, When they were young with your technical ability, with your physicality, they all play in different roles. Center back, left back with more or less adjustments.

16:55Because then when you start to play regular as a center back, it will be super easy for you. And he was fully convinced that it was the best for him. Look what happened. We played the first game against Liverpool home. Levi has to face Mo Salah you know and for Mauricio Levi did an amazing game and for us we were so happy why? because he projects the performance of a guy in time so this okay now he starts to play I accept those mistakes or those errors are normal you know with several games you know these guys they learn so quick and it will be fine so what happened he received external report not from the club you know external you know his company or personal because now today players they have external nutrition fitness coach uh mental coach they have everything you know and tactical coach which is super risky and the guy the day after training i saw levi dead and he said what happened i'm dead why no i received the report yesterday you know and i was wrong i did everything wrong I said, are you serious?

18:05Yes. And he said, no way. We just, I came out from Maurice's office, you know, how good you were yesterday, how pleased we are with what you did, you know. So you were defending the best player in the Premier League. So that's the context, you know. You received like much of the day clips, you know, body shape here, you know, just nothing. But how different the assessment of a player could be with the same performance. So that ability to play with those strategies can make a player to step up or to kill a player, you know? And that's internal analysis or external analysis with no context. There was a lovely quote from Cole Palmer about his relationship with both of you where he said, they gave me the opportunity and the freedom to do what I do.

18:53It sounds really simple, but how do you go about giving a player that freedom? In the first few training sessions, one day after a few training sessions, I came to my office and Gesù was there and Mickey, I don't know, and Tony. I said, Coach, Gesù and guys, because I was seeing what you expect from the players that play in my position. I think I need to do a little bit more specific show because I didn't do too much in City. and I said I need to, what do you think? I looked to Jesus and said, that is a crack. It's tough. It's tough. Because a guy that arrived after a few training sessions, he said, because of the demand that you expect for a player in that position, I said I am not ready to do what you expect from a player in that position.

19:50In this moment, you say, well, come on, that is going to be tough with the quality. and this intelligence about to, you know, to want to do everything, to perform, and then look. And then the freedom is, it's always we said, we love to be an organization chaos, no? And players need to feel that it's a chaos, but with organization. And that is the freedom that you can find. because you respect the rules, you know what they need to do on the pitch, but at the same time you feel the freedom to express your talent. And a player like Cole Palmer, you cannot say, no, you move from here to there, that is your movement, and it's mechanic, you know.

20:46No, no. Of course, it's mechanic in some aspect of the game that maybe we don't have the ball. You need to do this, do that. OK, organization, when we lose the ball, transition, everything, aspect of it. But after, in positional game is this, you need to have your team, but after it's your quality and your capacity to understand the game, what is the demand of the game, or the situation, the intuition, and the capacity to see a space, you know, to arrive, or to do dribbles and shoot. That after we are not going to cut this potential, you know. That is why football is so emotional, because our player, like him, with the capacity to create that emotion, that the people become crazy, you know?

21:29You remember that moment he came in the office and said that? Yeah, we do remember plenty with him, because there are some very good, and some ones that are funny as well. But he's super talented. What would you share with us about a story about Cole Palmer that you think summed up your relationship or your understanding of him as a player? Because he has emotionally intelligence above the level of... Avidash. Above Avidash. Yeah, above the average footballer. And makes him special. What he's capable to do with the ball, it's obvious, you know? But everything else that you don't see, how he assess situations, how to behave, but also because he's so young sometimes he made a mistake but when he made a mistake and it was challenged he had the capacity to accept it and to say yeah, I was wrong, sorry won't happen again and that makes him great because he's above average You were smiling though when we asked you about him what was the funny story?

22:48Yeah, I think it was one cup game, halftime, you know. So Mauricio was a bit tough on the group. You know, sometimes when you play a team that is not in the same division, it could be, you know, a different approach, I would say. And Mauricio gave a talk and then he left. And then when he left, he comes to me and says A and B. and I said to him, why you didn't say 10 seconds before? He was here, you know? That's not, it's not something to, you know? And, you know, he knew that he made that mistake. So it's fine to say whatever to the assistants, but that question was, next time you go direct to him, either in public or in private, you know?

23:38And those things makes the connection in between a manager and the players. The day after, we call. I say, Cole, what do you need to tell me? Ah, you are brave. Be brave here. Coach, okay. It was good. You know? It's so interesting this, isn't it? Because your job really is to get the players absolutely primed for a Saturday for a kickoff. You can't go too much because it kills their confidence. You can't go too little because they relax. It's about trying to get it absolutely perfect. What is the secret to priming them for that moment, do you think? The secret is to read the atmosphere and the emotional signal from the group.

24:24And did you ever get it wrong, go too much or go too little? Yes, sometimes you are wrong. You never, you are not, we are not perfect. Sometimes we, we sometimes, you know, over stress the group and sometimes we're too much relaxed or too much joy when we need to put more stress. It's very thin, the line, no? But I think after our experience, we feel that that is the most important thing is to be focused. Of course, we have a group of people that measure the data and everything. The players are tired, not tired, things like this but I think the important thing is to measure the emotional state of the group and always is in all the whole group you have few players that give the signal how the group is feeling and that is the moment that you act after it's not a data that can measure the level of emotional state, no, of the group.

25:39That I think is a key part of our management is to be right in how we apply our loads, no, in training, not to stress too much, put too much stress, but also not to be short in the, you know, in what we are giving to the player. And who was the player at Chelsea that you would look at, Jesus, and see whether you'd done the job right in the week? Who was the player that you could either speak to and find out how the group are feeling, maybe away from Maurizio as the manager, just as the coach to go and speak to them? We tried to connect with different players. Obviously, the distance in between players and coaches are set by players.

26:26So there are players that they want more distance, and then obviously could be experience, could be commitment, could be different, and maybe you don't ask the same to everyone. You get the feeling from them. Obviously, if they play more or they play less, you have to be careful with the feedback and it's not like you just rely on one because I think what we try to show to the players is no matter what's your age or your experience, we are going to treat you fairly. We are here for you. If you play less, we are going to be more intense on you because we want you to have more coaching time because you are not playing in order that you can short our distance with the ones they are playing.

27:13Those kind of things. And we used to say that our job is like, it's an art because you need to pick. But it's the same as yours. So you have a list of questions. The way you connect with us, making the questions makes you different. Otherwise, you can sit two people here and they read the questions. I'm sure we are not going to give the same answers. So there are no set protocol to get that feedback. See, that's interesting because it reminds me of another quote from Cole Palma where he said about you actually, Maurizio, he said, the manager just speaks to me like a normal person. Not about football, but about life.

27:52He makes me feel relaxed. He makes me feel confident. And I sometimes think we miss that if you're trying to get someone to perform at an elite level, it's not all about your sprinting and your intensity and your mindset and your desire and your drive how's your mum? how's your sister? these things are just as important but why? but the players need to feel that it's genuine genuine and question that you are interested because you really care it's not because that is like I am a coach and that is my list of duties today. Speak with Palmer. His mother is okay, good. Ah, tick the box. That needs to be a very genuine question.

28:41It's not to call Palmer to my office and say, how is your mom? How is your dad? Okay, good. Thank you. No? Sometimes people become confused. is the circumstance, is the moment, is the timing, is because something happened, is not always.

29:06Sometimes we spend time together and not to talk. I don't know. Like Jesus said, it's an art. That is the real tactic of manager, being coach, being manager, being head coach or being coaches. Because after in the pitch, also I think we we are so good doing what we are doing in a tactical preparation and everything because I think that is the most easy thing in that game because the knowledge I think we all today the coaches we have the same knowledge about tactic preparation of the game set pieces everything but the key is how you after provide the player the possibility to evolve with these tactics in an environment or in a place that you really enjoy and you want to be and you want to belong.

30:09That's why sometimes the mistake is some coaching staff does not do too much tactics during the week. Or another coaching staff does more tactics or more set pieces or less set pieces or like this. I think in our, in our, in the way that we see the things is, is the priority. It's always to provide the group of the player what they need. Which is the priority? No? If the priority is because we already, we are in a very good level of fitness, mental, you know, cohesion of the group. We are united. We really care. We don't need to work in this. We need to be focused in tactics because it's going to work.

30:59But if you want to go to the tactics before to fix all this type of problem, if I am not connected with Jesus, I cannot work with him. The coach is going to go, no, but when Jesus moves on the left, you move on the right. I say, when Jesus moves on the left, I go on the left too. I don't care. I stay here. I don't move. Or Jesus speaks with me and I don't answer because I have no good relationship. He says, ah, come on. or they don't talk in between each other. If you don't fix all this, that is tactic too. It's very difficult to create. We in Chelsea, we arrived in a group that was a new group, was a new group, was in a very difficult situation because I think in Star From Bridge was after six months, they didn't win one game or one game.

31:47They finished 12. okay, a very difficult situation that become all with the situation was creating, no, because problems, no, that you know it's easy to remember, but we were from zero and we start to provide to the team to analyze which is the priority. We cannot from start to build the house from the roof to the no, we need to settle the principle first. And we were little by little, after six, seven months, six months, the team start to perform. If you watch, because we are watching games like this, and you watch the last few games, I remember one game that we play again Brighton in Brighton.

32:30That was the last game or the second last game that Brighton was doing really well with the survey. And see, the way that we play there, if you analyze the tactical things that Brighton didn't know how to press us, how to play. We were playing unbelievable football. That is not only because our knowledge about tactics was the freedom in this chaos or in this, you know, environment that we create the possibility to the players press all the talent. And when, if you go back and see this game, this game, like another, again, Everton 6-0 or West Ham at home or Bormuz at home, like this. How the team finished playing, that is the credit of all these things that we were talking today.

33:27Not because we are genius in a tactical way. It's because we create an environment that the player like Malo Gusto, that was really young and came from, not to play from Lyon, finished playing in his best. Badia Schiele Kukurela that didn't play from the beginning and the club wanted to sell become the best fullback on the Premier League Connor Gallagher Enzo Fernandes Cole Palmer Noni Madueke Jackson plenty of players that they grow through all this value, this method, this idea of to build things, no, in this emotional way that is really, really, really key, no? One thing that fascinated us when we were talking earlier about what we would discuss with you is this amazing ability you've got to go in and work with someone like Harry Kane or Cole Palmer or Lever Colwell, all of these great players.

34:31But then the day that you walk through the door at Paris Saint-Germain and suddenly you you have Lionel Messi and Mbappe and Neymar. Because everyone talks about imposter syndrome, this fear that you have when you suddenly are faced with something. Does that happen to a coach when you walk in and you've got some of the world's best players sitting in front of you? Or do you have to go in there and be exactly the same as you are at Espanyol, at Tottenham, at Chelsea? How was that? Okay, Jesus, you start and I finish. I mean, you have to be yourself. Because if you pretend to be different, but obviously you need to understand their moment.

35:17Their quality, everyone knows their quality. And obviously that was a very special and unique situation where three world-class players that normally they are going to be just one and surrounded by a special place in order to provide the best platform for them to perform, they were all together. And it's not just they were together. They had to share the front page of the newspaper, the assist, the goal, the penalties, which is very rare. So, you know, so that was... Our job was to try to understand the moment and to create an environment for those three to feel as comfortable as possible, you know, and try to make the team to perform, you know, in the best way because it's not Neymar plus Messi plus Mbappé, you know, maybe the equation, it's different because they are sharing things that they never, they never, they weren't born to share.

36:26They are the main, the main one. So that was super difficult for him as a coach. And we try to provide normality, calmness. They are normal guys that you can speak to, you know, and just to accept that they've been through different experiences. They were in a different moment. So one player was completely different to another. And our job was to generate normality, I would say. What I need to say is we were so lucky to be there, living that experience. Because I think no other coaching staff can say we have the two best goalkeepers, Navas, Donnarumma, best central backs, like, you know, Sergio Ramos, Marquinhos, Kimpembe, okay, full backs, Hakimi, Messi, Mbappé, Neymar, but on the bench or in the same squad, Di Maria, Icardi, Dressler, Wijnaldum, Berratti, Paredes, maybe 15, 16, 17 names already and still a few more.

37:48Herrera Rafinha Ganagay Danilo okay and you it only can play 11 can play 11 and the problem is when people start to not believe that say come on you need to win 4-0 before to score 4 goals before you start the game from the bus yeah I say but it's not like this it's not like this because I say is playing Jesus before. You receive Messi with no preseason after the Copa America. Big stress, trauma after to leave Barcelona. You need time to adapt. Neymar, some problems. Mbappé. But these three guys that they need a team in behind to play for them, they need to share the space before explaining. Oh, who Who is the taker of penalty?

38:50It's not easy to say because Messi, Neymar, Mbappé, okay, it's so really, really complex situation when you go and go and go and go. And what we did is to try, like Jesus said, is be ourselves, try to do in the way that we feel but knowing that we are going to suffer. It's going to be difficult. If we were in Tottenham, a team that was so, you know, high line, you know, press high, recover balls in the opposite half, yes, you cannot expect that Messi is going to press people. When in Barcelona, when he was in his peak with Guardiola, he never pressed. And that is the situation that sometimes the people become confused and said, that was the difficult challenge And what were those three guys like though to build relationships with you know how did you go about doing that?

39:57Yes, the approach was completely different with the three but I think when we go back and see the whole season that we spent together I think it was never one problem, never discipline problem, never you know, disrespectful with us. Always they were on time. They always were, you know, very respectful with our decision. And that is, it's only messy that you remember when I take off when I get Lyon, that he was a little bit disappointed. But that was my decision because it was to protect him. There was a problem with his knee. And he said to me, oh, coach, but you need to ask me. I said, yeah, but I cannot ask.

40:43Because all my feedback through the doctors and the people say that you are in a big risk to be injured in your knee. Yeah, yeah, but Guardiola always asks me before to go out. I say, yeah, but I am no Guardiola. That is in this moment, you know, I said, look, that is different. Because in this moment that I feel the risk, I don't want to put you in risk. That is sometimes, you know, is the disagreement. but always I think he understood that always it's not to challenge him or to show that I am you know I have character I have the personality to say oh Messi out no Messi out no I want to protect you I care for you I love you I don't want that you being sure and that the good the good and the bad because the people start to kill me because Messi was out in this game that we were playing against Lyon 1-1 in two weeks I remember we had a have a a game in Champions League against Manchester City and he was out for two weeks and he started to train Monday and he can play Wednesday and he scored a very nice goal that 2-1 for us that we beat Manchester City and he after come on the on the dressing room and hacked me no and only hacked me and he said nothing can I ask how your role changed at Paris Saint-Germain?

42:08Because you work with a coach who thrives on universal energy. So he's used to building and creating and looking at the room and suddenly there's ego and there's politics and there's power and there's commercial demands and every tiny decision is written about in the newspapers and the pressure on Maurizio greater than any previous time in his career. So how did that change how you worked with him or looked after him? Well, obviously try to connect more with players because we knew that wasn't that natural that with 20 plus starters it could have you know close connection as i said before players so not just myself all the coaching staff we tried to build those relations with with players and then what we did at paris and is to simplify the process in terms of the training because there were so much talented players that Mauricio one day said to me, a talented player needs to rest their mind during the week.

43:14So we cannot demand complexity through drills. We cannot make these guys overthink during the week because what everyone expects from them on the game is to create. To create something different from the previous match and the previous season. So to manage that mental load was important, especially on the super talent players, and provide the other ones that they have to sustain the physicality of the group. So it was more simple. Obviously, we play plenty of games, so there are not much tough sessions, but the ones that we could perform in certain areas, we simplified. So the type of drill, the dynamics, was focused on prevention, right analysis of fatigue, because these guys, they are under huge stress because of the traveling and the possibilities, and especially because these guys, they spend a lot of time on commercial.

44:16So, I mean, Neymar says, I need to go to Germany for six hours, do something with Puma and come back. So that spending is not out there, you know. drinking is spending energy and time and you know so those kind of things we were especially to bridge so bridge with the players to have conversations and then to filter you know whatever was important and especially to keep things that were not relevant from him not to disturb because he had so much to you know to protect was it hard was Sissi when we were in the training ground It was so easy because they are very good people, very good guys. I think we really enjoy the time together, no, when the camera were off, no, when no one see.

45:12But that's when you appear outside and you need to go to the media or the media start to talk about the things. That is when it's difficult because you need to protect your image. you need to project that everything is under control but you are talking about players that sometimes bigger than the club that you are and they have more followers than the club have supporters and every single decision that you take is affecting millions of people that was easy inside but outside was difficult because people is if you don't win games, it's like the problem is a coach. No? As always. The problem is, and I'm going to explain one, I think Thierry Henry is a good friend and he's not going to be upset about that, but I'm going to explain one thing.

46:12Thierry Henry was a bandit with Amazon, I think. Sorry, maybe I'm doing okay in a broadcast in France. And we played again in Marseille. And after 20 minutes, I think it was Hakimi. Yeah, red card. And we played with 10 men. At that moment, we played with Di Maria, Messi, Neymar, and Mbappe. Four on the front. And we kept playing with the same system. and we, one midfielder, like a central back, and then one central back, like a full back, we keep four, you know, four, one. In the second half, of course, you know, when Leo is higher, he trying to protect himself, going the right side and stay there.

47:08But we finished nil-nil the game. Okay, it was with one less, you know, good game. but he after in the in the media criticised said oh I don't understand Pochettino why put Messi so isolate you know in the right side because Messi need to be close to Neymar to connect the game plan was Messi 10 Di Maria 7 Neymar 11 and then be together go inside to the pocket to the central channel to stay together with Mbappé and from but after because of the problem of the and he said I don't understand Pochettino why put Messi on the right side you know and isolate him he cannot be close to Neymar that is the player that can link with him that is in another side and do you know what was like the universal you know energy the conspiration of the universe Do you remember being a kid at Christmas?

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50:44That's why I think platforms like this are important, where there's time to sit and actually talk properly about what happens, because otherwise it's quick headlines, it's quick soundbites from pundits, and you're left really without a voice. You can't say what you're thinking because you know there's politics this player's been taken off to go and do media things there's all sorts of stuff happening that you can't talk about how do you protect your mental health when you know the truth and the world thinks something different has has that ever been a yeah that is a big big i think that is that relationship keep us help in between us in between the coaching staff this good relationship the possibility to talk about a very open talks things that are very sometimes difficult to talk with some people is to have the trust to talk between us.

51:38Being very honest. It's not to keep nothing inside. Of course, I appreciate a lot psychologists, coaches, and ladies that can help in this way. And that is a serious thing that is not to banalize or to not to talk very, you know, in a cheap way. I think it's important to be very respectful. But in that case for us, we create a group of people, or I have lucky, that we protect ourselves together. At the moment, I think we, I touch wood, no? I think we are dealing well with this type of situation. It's true that it's tough. some example some people from the club when that moment happened when Messi out was out some people came and said oh why you put off Messi no off the pitch say no because it was a problem yeah but the player said that was was good said no no no I have all my my information through the doctor that was probably in his knee yeah but he he said that he can stay in the pitch.

52:57And do you know why? The people that came to the Par de France paid the ticket to see 90 minutes. Messi, Neymar, Mbappé. I said, yes, but I want to win. And we won the game, no? I am the coach. I work for the club, for the fans, for the players. And in this moment, we were talking, because it was a tough situation that not the player, because Messi didn't say nothing to me, but a round is creating that energy negative. And look that my wife is going to kill now, what they're going to say. Because after I start to appear, people know what is doing Pochettino, have no clue why Messi out, boom, boom, boom.

53:49Social media killing you because all the Argentine people, the Barcelona fans the this blah blah blah blah okay that coach have no clue I remember I arrived because I was living in the hotel my wife was in the bed I go to the toilet came I go to bed and she was watching me seeing me like this I said what happened I said my love I said why why what why you took off Messi of the picture He said, look now what you created, a big, big, big mess. We cannot be relaxed now. I thought you were going to say, my wife, my wife said, it's okay, I'm here for you, I love you. She went, why are you taking this?

54:41Why not keep it inside? But it's true, no, Jesus. It's true, it's true. That is unreal. I can't explain today. I can't explain today, no? but a few years ago I can't explain. But this type of situation, you know, is so nice. I think it's fun because we don't criticize no one, but it's in the way that the people see in a different way, you know, the things, you know. And this is important because this isn't being critical of anyone, but it gives people who never see the opportunity to understand the pressure, to understand that there are a million things happening and you're at the center of a storm often, yeah?

55:19Well, you know, these environments and sometimes you need to protect your company. You need to protect, you know, it's not just your image, just to protect the situation because tomorrow is another day and in two days you have a game and you cannot create and stick in the past with a situation. So move on, it's crucial, but move on in a nice way. But also we have to protect ourselves. sometimes we have to challenge ourselves but most of the times we need to remind ourselves how good we are on what we do, on the good things that we do you know, it's not to be arrogant but when you do some things in a nice way and you have to remind how good to protect yourself because if you pay attention to headlines, comments or you know, or what our environment you know, try to tell us oh, have you seen this newspaper?

56:14Have you seen in Skyport have you seen and said hey be careful we need to protect ourselves we do read we do listen we do watch people say I don't read I don't watch no it's not you know we do but we need to give the same consideration to a bad headline as the same as a good headline you know because if you pay attention to a tweet with 10 likes that is negative and you get mad you have to you have to say if there are a good tweet with 6 likes you say okay this is really good and 6 likes or 10 likes it's nothing because you don't know, you know. Even if it's a million likes, it means, I wouldn't say nothing, but that's not the reality.

56:52So sometimes we need to protect ourselves, you know, remind us, okay, we do right things. We win, we lose, that's a sport. But it's not everything instantly negative. I love your belief in universal energy, that things happen for a reason, right? Because actually, if you look at your career from even just meeting each other at Espanol and having that great success at Tottenham, getting all the way to the final, but actually ultimately feeling heartbreak. Going to Chelsea where the team was struggling, transforming the team. Going to Paris Saint-Germain where that is an experience that you will never get and very few people will ever have.

57:28There was a sign from one of your meeting rooms that you had the quote from the management writer, Peter Drucker, that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It went viral. I'm interested in how you're finding the challenge of creating a culture that you've successfully done within clubs and translating that into an international environment where your time with players is so much more limited. Yeah, but it's really similar. Maybe with less time and maybe you spend more time, but it's similar. Because the culture is about your habits, your small thing that you create and you settle like principles, you know?

58:04In the way that after you are going to behave like a group, in the way that you are going to behave, off first of the field and then on the field. This type of thing, maybe you spend a little bit more time and it's more long way to achieve. But I think we already, I think we achieved this and that we create a very good culture about in the way that we expect to behave and to perform too because it's about to create good habits to put our standard really high to after to, you know, to have the possibility to have a very strong platform to, you know, to go and to show our quality. But I think it's in the way that we, it's true that we spend maybe a little bit more time because it's not easy because sometimes you don't have time.

59:01But I think now we are in a point that I think Jesus can confirm or not. That is true. is I think we are in a very good moment. And I think we arrived, I think, on time to prepare now March and then to go to the World Cup in our best condition. When organization makes a change it's because something has to be different. I'm not saying improve it. And what we found there is like off basics, I will say, for whatever reason, because they were in a transition or whatever. We did this just to assess our vision. We didn't go there to teach anyone, to show how to do things. It's just to try to convince a group of players and a group of staff that we can be competitive.

59:57Because if we go to the FIFA ranks and we try to do the same that Spain, England or Germany, they do, we are different. because we have a unique situation where half of the squad plays in different leagues in Europe, in first and second division. The other guys, they play in MLS, whereas 98 % or 99 % of the English players, they play Premier League or Germany or Spain. Spanish guys, 96 % play in Spain. So it's a different situation. And as Mauricio said, since the Gold Cup, I think something grew inside of the group, the belief, the commitment, the message from them. And it makes us believe that we can be in a short competition, very competitive in the way that we can be a tough team.

1:00:52And let's see, he said that the standard is very high and that's the aim. Well, look, we wish you all the very best. We will be cheering you on after England, obviously. But look, today's been a real pleasure because it's so nice to get, you know, someone who I know is so important to you, but also someone who's so important to you to be next to each other. And I think it's been a really fascinating insight into your relationship. I think the final question really is, among all the pressure and the need to win and the media scrutiny and the players you're dealing with, have you both managed to take time to stop and realize that you have not lived ordinary lives?

1:01:30Like, what a pleasure to have experienced the things that you've both experienced for the last 20 or 30 years? When we came from now from a restaurant that we were to here, we were talking about that. That was a really good question. Because we were talking about when we were a child, when we, our dreams, how we see each other when we were, I don't know, 10, 12 years old. And we were, you know, we said, we are here in London, in one of the best cities in the world. going to do an amazing podcast with you guys. And I said, we were talking, we need to congratulate. And I said, well done, Jesus, because, no, we are living in a dream, in a dream, because I came also for a very humble, you know, family.

1:02:23And I was in the middle of nowhere when I was born in Argentina. I never think that I'm going to be here, no? But now I represent the most powerful country, one of the most powerful countries that is America. We are the coaches of America. And we had the opportunity to meet people like, no, it's the president of America. And you say, oh my goodness. I think we need to enjoy also. It's not to be under stress, under stress, and sinking and trying to change the rabbit and not to enjoy in between us or in between with our family. We try. We are very people that we are with the feet in the grass. And we also, I think we take time to enjoy.

1:03:04Amazing. Well, look, before we finish, we've just got one last thing to do. Oh, by the way, we've had some lemons in here for the universal energy. I knew that you were going to. Why are they so important? It's so important because a friend that really cares about me, one day said to me, Mauricio, you need to protect your space where you work. I said, but how? You put a bowl of lemon because the lemon protects you from the energy of the people that have no good energy. And if it came someone to your office, the lemon is going to attract the bad energy. Rather, to go to you, go to the lemon, and then you throw the lemon to the bin and it's not going to affect you.

1:03:57That is why. And you believe that? I believe. but look how healthy that lemon looks that's because the energy of the room is so good ok right that's yours and that's yours now you're not allowed to show each other you've got to give us some answers to the following questions and we'll see how similar your answers are don't show my wife is with you so the first question is the player that you believe you've enjoyed the closest tightest relationship with So you do Jesus and he does yours. Ah. I'm taking a risk now.

1:04:38Ooh, it's difficult. Because it's few. Jesus, which player has he had the best relationship with, do you think, or the closest? I mean, he has very good with, but I will say Hugo Lloris. Hugo Lloris. Is that true? It's true. is one of the closer yes yes yes okay Jesus what do you think he's written down I think Harry he's still writing on there hi Mbappé you say yeah because he was his your coach specialist coach come on in finishing yeah he was my coach he was my coach yeah yeah yeah he was a special relationship in Paris with him he's very close intense with Harry longer yeah okay the next one then is so for each of you who is the player that has surprised you most in your career Ney okay for me Mason Mason Ryan Mason yeah surprise as I think because when we arrived to Tottenham and we need to give the credit to Sean McDermott when we arrived to Tottenham he was was devastated Ryan Mason and our first meeting was in in in the in the gym and he was a guy that was and we said what happened with you no I came from five no different loan in the last few years and I was essentially oh relax you be be positive you are going to be with us during six months I really trust in Sean McDermott what he said to me that was one of the best...

1:06:28Because Sean McDermott said to us, Ryan Mason was the most quality player that was in my hands in the academy of Tottenham. I trust in Sean, and we are going to give the opportunity, don't worry. And then we bring, for different reasons, to the preseason. And the first game that we played in Seattle with Tottenham in 2014, starting in 2011, and he understood perfectly all that we explained and how we wanted to play and wow what a brain and I said to Jesus after the game he played 45 minutes he said that is my player that is my he's my coaching side to the to the to the pitch amazing that surprised me you know in this way of course Nade too because amazing so yours was Neymar no I thought I had to say his yeah ok ok that's what you got No, I said, nay.

1:07:27Because when we signed, so Neymar was so warm with him, with us, you know. And I think, I don't know, it was the first week, one day he arrives in the office and he said, Mauricio, it's not necessary for you to ask me for shares. I give you a certain amount of shares for everyone that you need to give. This is one day with shares. Another day with perfumes of his, you know, brands. So he has a heart that is so big. Despite his moment in his football career, as a human, he was someone that was ahead. Never lie. Things that are unique as a player. And then gifted, you know, like everyone else. But he's being judged by other things.

1:08:19but that's why you know in terms of surprise you know so we were surprised with a kind of justice from him you know because the way he is it's amazing isn't it how you have one opinion of someone and then you realise your opinion is totally wrong I want you to write down what is the trophy Maurizio would most like to win in his career and you must write down what do you think is the trophy that Jesus would most like to win in his career it's so easy now I think these might be the same. So let's turn them around at the same time. In three, two, one. He has two dreams. He's at the same level. His dream, Champignon.

1:09:03Champignon is fine. Champion League. Champion League. But his is at the same level. For me, Champion League and Premier League. Premier League at the same level. Of course the World Cup. But Champion League and Premier League for me is a thing that I don't know how but I'm going to achieve for sure I don't know in which club but do you believe really believe that one day you will win the Premier League as a manager yes how important is it to believe that it's really important if you don't believe in things if you have belief you have you know that you know hunger and passion and fire it's difficult to achieve but I think it's always always we're talking about that I think Champion League is it's amazing because it's a dream too like a World Cup but the Premier League because we really love you know the English football and because football born here and we we had the possibility we were so lucky to spend a lot of time in in Wembley that is the it's icon for us it's a It's an amazing, you know, stadium.

1:10:21I think we deserve Jesus. I think we deserve. And we are going to try. And for sure we are going to get. Are you the best manager you've ever been? I think so. I think so. I think so. I think I can be better because I think you can improve. But I think today, I think we have the capacity and the knowledge, the balance to provide to every single or any club or any company, good things, I think. What is the club that holds the most special place in Mauricio's heart? Mauricio, if you can answer it for Jesus, which club holds the most special place? for him the most special like a coach because you

1:11:19and turn the boards around that's clear this is very simple

1:11:27we will agree the final final question why Spurs? okay the connection always was It was amazing with Daniel when we arrived to feel the trust of the owner of the club, like Daniel Levy, make us feel like I said before. We asked to create a laboratory there, and he spent money to provide us what we wanted. He trusts from the beginning, and he supports us to arrive where we arrived. and our successful in Tottenham not winning a game no winning sorry no winning a trophy is complete unfair no? Because when when we arrive I think in the way that we have the possibility to create something special in Tottenham with the project that we we had ahead that to build the new stadium to finish the training ground and to create the facilities that today Tottenham is one of the best clubs in the world in terms of facilities, that was because you need the trust of the owner, the trust of the guy and the vision that have Daniel to create this and then support and have the patient with us because from the beginning it wasn't easy.

1:12:55and then people really appreciate our job and I think the connection was was really really strong and then of course we with all the effort I think in the way that we built all this history together that we were so close to win the champion league or the premier league because it's not true that we didn't want to win titles like Carabao Cup or FA. The problem was that we were focusing too many places. It's to build the stadium. It's to move to Wembley. We played in Milton Keynes some games. I remember that all the fans moving around and it was really difficult for everyone. In the same time, you know very well when that is unsettled, that situation is difficult to keep performing with the team.

1:13:52not too much money to invest in players. If not, we were very creative in all these type of situations. I think we were very successful and I think we create very good emotions with the fans. And that keeps in the memories of the way that we play, in the way that we approach the games, in the way that we... I was watching last day in Sky the Battle of the Bridge in between Chelsea and Tottenham and what a game, amazing in the way that we play and the way that we, you know, care about the club. I see all this as emotional keep. And today, I think it's unbelievable because still the people on the street, the fans of the tournament, really show the love and the appreciation.

1:14:38And I think that is why it's so special, no, Spurs, because we live a moment that when I was a very young coach from Southampton, where we came and Daniel really trusting us and give the confidence and the patience for us to provide you know to show our quality like our coaches and that is not too many clubs that can do and then the fans that really appreciate it's a little bit you know it's a little bit unfair to compare this period with another period because it's true that now Tottenham is a club that need to think to win the Premier League and the Champions League because facilities are Champions League.

1:15:26And in the past, we didn't have that. But now, it's about to win the Premier League or the Champions League. I think it's true that the fans today appreciate because we were challenging for Premier League and for Champions League. To win an Europa League that the team won is good because when you celebrate a trophy, that is good but it's not enough it's not enough for a club like Tottenham it's not enough to you know to challenge for the Carabao Cup or the FA Cup or the Europa League or the conference it's a club that should be or need to be because the fans the test of football or what they expect is to be in the in Champions League fighting for the Champions League trying to believe that you can win the Champions League and also fighting for the Premier League and believing that you can win the Premier League.

1:16:20Well, thank you so much to Maurizio and Jesus for their time. I think the thing to hold on to there is how much of this is just about people? Like tactics, as Maurizio said, are the easy bit. The hard bit is where the players want to be in the building. He calls that the real tactic. And patience is key here. He talks about how Chelsea, that started from zero, put the principles in first and built the foundations before you start worrying about the booth. and Maurizio and Jesus both told us it was about six months before the team really started to click. After the start United have had, that might be the most important thing he actually did say to us.

1:16:56It's true. And by the way, if anyone at Carrington is wondering why there's a bottle of lemons in the manager's office, go back and listen to the end of this and you will hear exactly why. If you've got a United fan on your life, please send them this conversation. If you're not subscribed to the show, please do that now. We love Maurizio. We love Jesus. and we wish them all the very best as they take on the role as assistant and manager of Manchester United. For you though, stay humble, curious and empathetic and we'll see you next time.

1:17:46Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of the best one yet behind every episode. There's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google doc, the headline hammer with Google workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools. We already use like Gmail docs and sheets, no new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

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