How To Be A Better Mate

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0:13Hi there, welcome along to our usual Wednesday episode where myself and Damian. Hey Damian. Hey Jake, how are you? Very well, thanks. We get to sit down and talk about some of the key lessons that we've learned from speaking to over 500 high performers. And can I just say at this point how pleased we are that so many of you seem to be enjoying these Wednesday conversations. we get so many messages saying like I love the guests but I also like it when you and Damien sit down and just go deep into one specific topic so first of all thank you very much for the feedback please do keep on sharing these episodes we're about to talk about friendship and how to be a better mate and I'm really hoping that it's a conversation that compels you to send this to someone almost to remind them that they are a great friend so I'd love you at some point just to send this on and say, I heard this, it reminded me of you, I hope you're okay, and it could just be the conversation that makes a difference.

1:01It's also worth mentioning that it's Movember this month, which is all about men's health, and actually, oh, should we just say, good luck to Cam, who works for us, who is doing Movember, I've sponsored him, no pressure, obviously, Damien, but it'd be nice if you did. One of the things when it comes to Movember, right, is that it's about men's health, and one of the biggest threats to men's health actually is not something that you can find in a blood test. One of the biggest threats to men's health is loneliness. So we're going to talk today, Damien, about how to be better friends. We're going to hear from Kevin Sinfield and talk about his relationship with Rob Burrow.

1:31Dr. Rangan Chatterjee is going to share with us some of the important elements about getting things wrong when it comes to friendship. The amazing Alan De Botton is going to give us one hard question we can ask that builds deeper trust. We're going to hear from military experts. We're going to hear from boxers. We're going to hear from deep thinkers like Shane Parrish. But also we're going to ask a few hard questions of each other, I think, because I think it's really important, don't you, that if we're going to talk about friendship, we should kind of be honest about how difficult it can be as a couple of guys in there.

2:01Well, one of us is in our 40s to have these kinds of conversations and to really be honest about where we're at with friendship. Yeah, definitely.

2:08Jake Humphrey: And I think one important point to mention here is that in these 500 plus interviews that we've been lucky enough to do that we're learning as much as anybody else that's listening that we don't claim to have the answers we're as curious as the next person so yeah bring it on that those kind of questions really do evoke a deeper level of thinking okay then something goes wrong at two o 'clock in the morning who do you ring good question um i'm lucky enough i grew up with two uh in a family of um I've got two brothers and a sister. So as we've got older, our relationship sort of strengthened. So not just siblings, but as friends as well.

2:49Jake Humphrey: So it'd be my two brothers, Anthony and Chris. Yeah. What about you? It's interesting. It probably wouldn't be my sister or my brother, so Tom and Rachel, because we, and I wonder whether this is a common thing for a lot of people. We're at a stage where my brother's got a tiny toddler and two other kids. my sister's eldest has gone to university but they're very busy and you do kind of I don't know it's kind of sad when you're a parent and you see your two kids we've just come back from three weeks around the US with our kids and to see them in the back of the car we're on a big road trip just laughing and giggling you sort of think god I hope you have that relationship forever and it's not that I don't have well I probably don't have that well I definitely don't have that relationship now with my brother and sister where we're on the phone all the time they're coming around for meals I'm going around theirs for meals yeah it's actually a source of sadness for me that it's not um it's not that we don't have a good relationship they'll probably listen to this and ring me and be like what are you talking about but we don't like we we don't we don't see each other that much yeah yeah so i i probably wouldn't call them um i mean obviously my wife and you know you'd speak to them first but there's someone in our village called ian who like i really really like he just solves shit You know those people that they just have the answers.

4:07Like your car breaks down and he goes, oh, it's probably this. Or you've got an issue with your central heating and he comes around and repairs it. He's just like Mr. Practical, but also a great listener and a great guy. So I think I would give him a call before anybody else. One thing I have found though when it comes to friendships is that when life is challenging and busy and you've got a lot going on, I find anyway my friendships are kind of friendships of circumstance. So the people I went to school with, I never speak to. The people I work with in kids' telly, I sometimes speak to. The people I worked with in Formula One, and obviously, by the way, when I was in kids' telly, it was like full commitment to those people.

4:44In F1, it was full commitment to those people. And then it isn't really now because I'm not doing that, but I'm a bit involved, so I still speak to them. Football, no one really from 10 years of hosting football, I've probably heard from two of the pundits that I spent every day or week with since I left two, three years ago. But then the guys who are on high performance, the producers, the researchers, the APs, the guest bookers, you, the team, every day. So I have this really weird sort of experience where my friends are kind of the people I work with, and I'm not sure that's especially rare.

5:18Jake Humphrey: No, I don't think it's rare. I'll tell you what I found helpful a few years ago when somebody said to me that, you know, people come into your life for seasons, reasons, or lifetimes. and when you start viewing it through that, you go, sometimes it might just be a certain time in your life that somebody's there. It might be when you're at school and you've been thrown together and you've got to make friends there. Sometimes it's because you work with them. So the reason is there or there's a certain, your kids are at the same age and you have that. And then there's the rare few that make it because you're there just because you love spending time in each other's company.

5:51Jake Humphrey: And I found that quite a helpful way of viewing it because I used to feel guilty if I've not been in touch with somebody for a while and then it's hard i've not made an effort and i need to do that and then when you start recognizing but it was they were there for that season and we've left it on really good terms and we could still pick up and get on well but we don't have the same reason to be together in in that way i definitely relate to that because i think like you know me i'm obsessed with constantly changing and evolving and doing new things and building new things and and that's not necessarily the right or the wrong way to live but it is the way that i like to live and i think that naturally leaves like you'd leave people behind quite often yeah because the space that you that you were in you're no longer in and i'm i love right that i can't actually imagine anything worse than the same job in the same building with the same friends and the same restaurants and the same plans and the same ideas in 10 years time like even in two years time i'm a constantly like what's the next thing which is why my career is this weird hodge potch of building businesses, different sorts of hosting, like, you know, walking away from telly, all those things.

7:00We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

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9:19It's like, yeah, but the people that I'm now working with, you know, for what I want to do in the next year or two, these people can really come on the journey with me and it can be amazing. Yeah. But then sometimes it leaves you thinking, is it like, I don't know, is that like an arrogant, detestable way to sort of view life, you know? Yeah, I disagree.

9:37Jake Humphrey: I don't think that, like you said, is that wrong? And I think we need to get away from this idea. There is no right or wrong answer. There's no textbook you can read that tells you what we need to do. that gives you 100 % on that score. I think it's the fact that, is it helpful for you? Is it useful? And the answer is, yeah, it is. You've had a successful career. You've got a rich, full life and at different stages, different people are with you on it. I think that's how I would view it if I was in your case. But you do have people that have made that transition from being into lifetime friends, haven't you?

10:13I've met some of them over the years. But the problem is I choose to live in Norfolk, which is a long way from everyone. so like my entire working life has been in london or around the world and for the last 10 years i've lived back home in norwich i've only not lived in norwich for 15 years of my whole life so i think that that geography thing is also a challenge so people are often like oh i'd love to see you and when you're in london i'm like well like you i get in london as late as possible to do my job and get out as quick as possible to get home to my to my family and the really great friends that i do have in sort of this season of my life, which basically are friends from my kids' school, like fellow parents, people that live in the village where I live, people that I, you know, a bunch of guys that I play paddle with.

10:54So I've got great mates, but they're not the same mates from five or 10 years ago. And sometimes I feel that's a failing on my part. Yeah, I get that.

11:03Jake Humphrey: But I think there's really interesting research on this that was done where the idea of proximity is far more significant than what we often give it credit to. that when they studied people that have a best friend, often it's because they lived in the same apartment block or they lived in the same village or their kids went to school. And people identify that when you're there and you're close by, the small things of friendship are easier to maintain, the small little gestures, the small helpful things. So I think it's entirely normal where you are at this stage. And I think that's why this conversation that we can have allows people to say it doesn't matter what season, what the reason is or whether they're lifetime friends.

11:47Jake Humphrey: How can we all be better friends with the people that we're in close proximity to at this moment in time? Well, let's get into some of the learning then. Who would you like to hear from to begin this conversation? I think there's nobody that we could start this conversation better than than Kevin Sinfield or Sir Kevin Sinfield these days, a man who's become renowned for being the best of friends to his former playing colleague and teammate, Rob Burrow, who was stricken with MND, and Kevin swept in to do everything he could to support his friend and support the wider MND community. Let's see if I'm in.

12:27Last time I saw him was the day before he passed, and it was tough. I was in an England rugby camp, and I got the message that I knew what week he'd been poorly and got the message they thought he'd be close so shot back up north and went to see him and as I looked through the little window he'd had his own private room Rob he was still working his magic then Damien and as I peered through we were fast asleep with the breathing apparatus on and anyway I crept in and saw his mum and his sister and And I sat with him and he woke up. And so I did what I normally did, was try and make him laugh. And told him what I'd been up to.

13:17No, it was really sad because... Sad but beautiful. We both knew it was the last time. I knew, I was pretty sure it was the last time. I'm pretty sure he did too. The minute he opened his eyes, I got the biggest smile. He was so happy that... I always got the smile, Damien, regardless of what was going on. I always got a smile. And it was his way of saying, everything's all right. And his way of saying to me, no matter what's going on in your life,

13:53whatever's weighing heavy on you, whatever you're mulling over, doesn't matter. It was his way of saying, just get on with living and loving and taking some risks.

14:05Jake Humphrey: Kevin never fails to humble me when I'm in his company I was talking to a mutual friend of ours recently who said like it leaves you wanting to be a better person just being around him yeah and I was interested that he's done these seven by seven marathons recently to raise funds for MND and there was some really interesting research on this that back in 2008 there was a couple of psychologist that found people judged walking up a hill as less steep when they did it with a friend i may admit like just imagine that the idea that the hill doesn't feel as steep when you've got a mate what a great kind of testament to what friendship is yeah and i think that's the bit that when we spoke to kevin he spoke about his mates that were also came on board for these seven different challenges with him and how that they were just as important even when the spotlight doesn't shine on them and i think we all need somebody that helps us just flatten a hill make it seem a little more manageable when when we're faced with those challenges in life it also makes me think actually of rob burrow though and that often when we do the whole kevin sinfield thing a lot of the talk is about kevin sinfield right and what he's achieved and it is incredible and it's amazing what i haven't really had people talk about too often is i wonder while he was still life what it did for Rob because he was facing the steepest of hills right with his M &D diagnosis and I love this concept that as well as raising funds and doing things that probably gave him a real sense of purpose Kevin Sinfield Kevin also flattened the hill for Rob yeah yeah maybe without even knowing it yeah he did I mean I was lucky enough to know Rob for a long time and he was he was the kindest of souls himself.

15:45Jake Humphrey: I remember seeing him at different stages after big defeats or disappointments and he was still kind and incredibly generous as a bloke, which I think is a good way to judge him. I remember asking him once about Kev before Rob lost his voice to the illness and again, he was joking with me. He said, he said, if the shoe was on the other foot and people have asked him, would you have done the same fundraising if it was Kev that was stricken down? And he was like, no. No, I wouldn't. I'd have given him a pat on the back and told him. Yeah. And I tell that story because he was being sort of playful.

16:21Jake Humphrey: Yeah. But I think there's no doubt that amongst that group of teammates, they went to that extra level of friendship that they had. They weren't blokes that just played together. They were blokes that genuinely had each other's back. And I think Rob would have done it. And there's about six or seven guys in that set up that would have all stepped up if Kevin somehow hadn't done that. He came to one of our high performance live tours, didn't he, Rob Burrow? Yeah, do you remember? Him and Lindsay. Very moving. This idea of flattening the hill, I think is really interesting because I think it's a great question we should all ask ourselves all the time.

16:54And this doesn't just actually relate to friendship or your best friend or your partner. I think, you know how I love the phrase, be the light in the room. And every day, whatever room you go into, ask yourself, have I been the light in that room? It's also a great question that we should all start asking ourselves. Have I flattened the hill? for the people around me. Because you can also make the hill a lot steeper for people. And I think that's the important thing that we have to remember in this. A great friend can flatten the hill. Someone that brings challenge and struggle and strife and challenge to your life can make that hill seem steeper.

17:26And it's a very, very simple sort of rule to live by almost like, today, am I going to flatten the hill for everyone through small, tiny behaviours, through support? And I think that's an important thing from my own perspective. When I say like my sort of friendship groups are quite transient depending on where I'm at in my life, the most important thing for me is regardless of whether it's 15 or 20 years ago or today, it's about flattening the hill for people. And I'll always try and do that. I think it's a really, really nice thought. That bit of research is really interesting, isn't it?

17:55Jake Humphrey: Well, why don't we jump forward and like that idea of flattening the hill and seeing that it doesn't have to be in big grand gestures that we can flatten the hill for somebody. Aldo Cain let's listen to when he came on and spoke about being in times of adversity that he chose to put himself in you know rowing across the Atlantic former special forces soldier yeah so Aldo he was the sniper he was a member of the special forces and he's been he's had this second act to his to his career of being like a a TV stuntman and a guy that's behind the scenes making some incredible documentaries but he spoke about when he chose to wrote the Atlantic with three other mates including Jason Fox who's been a guest on the podcast yeah and he spoke about how it was in the small acts that they flatten the hill for each other let's listen to him explain it rowing across Atlantic um you know he would I would come off shift two minutes early and I would go in and I would put his toothpaste on his toothbrush and I would lay out his bedding and I would get his stuff ready.

18:59And this isn't a cabin, it's the size of like this mat. And I would get all his stuff done

19:08completely without any thought of him doing that back for me. So that unselfishness goes a long, long way because if you've got a section of four, eight, 12 people, you know there's always someone there that's willing to watch your back. And it's just like these things are essentially free.

19:28Jake Humphrey: so who flattens the hill for you i've got a couple of mates that um that i'm incredibly fond of um one of them um is a friend of mine that i met like 25 years ago and then we had that experience that you described of uh i became a parent we weren't living in close proximity and we sort of fell um fell silent in each other's lives for a long time uh mate of mine called chris our kids We can make more time to spend with each other. So we don't catch up ridiculously frequently, but we try and schedule something. How does he flatten the hill? Just by being listening. The reality is he doesn't work in the world that I'm in and I don't work in his world, but we just take a real interest in each other's worlds.

20:14We remember what you were working on,

20:16Jake Humphrey: what the challenges were. We ask deeper questions to try and understand some of the context and the nuances of it. and I find that often it's not a piece of advice that he would offer it's more the fact that he's listened really deeply and with intention that leaves me coming away feeling lighter and having enjoyed his company like we had that when we first met 25 years ago and what's been interesting is meeting six or seven years ago we just fall into that pattern of really deep listening and curiosity and having a laugh with each other it's good man what about you? I think the two people that so you know i i get a bit um i'm a bit of a catastrophizer yeah and the thing i catastrophize most about is the is my two businesses whisper group and high performance so the people that flatten the hill for me is josh the ceo of this business yep you know high performance people don't often realize we've got almost 50 staff now we produce a bunch of different podcasts and the stakes are kind of high but equally sunnell who's the ceo of whisper group yeah which is an even bigger business offices around the world and 300 staff you know i've i always try and be very clear.

21:21I'm the founder or a co-founder of a business. I'm not the CEO. Like I'm not in the weeds doing the, doing the stuff. And sometimes whether things are good or like when things are good, I get overwhelmed with this need to capture the good and really like, Oh my God, we better capitalize on this moment. And when things are bad, I get overwhelmed with, Oh my goodness, the business is going to collapse. This is the end. How am I going to cope? What's going to happen? And those guys, Sondell and Josh always flatten the hill and they're like, listen, it's not as bad as it looks or listen it might be good um but it doesn't mean it's going to be forever let's just like to basically keep the ground level yeah which is important for me but i also think it's important to have someone like me that is like that always thinks the hill is either steep going up or very steep going down like which one is it and i think you need each other in those situations and it sounds like you and your friend have found this really nice sort of ability where you both bring different things to the table different things to the relationship

22:16Jake Humphrey: yeah and i think what's like one of the things that always strikes me about this friendship with chris is that there's no sense of competition like we celebrate each other's successes we commiserate with each other's disappointments but yeah like from the time that we met the it always felt like you could trust each other we had each other's back and I remember saying it to you years ago and like this is where you went up massively in my esteem was that you defended me in a room that wasn't there and when I found out afterwards that I was being criticized and you stuck up for me and when I was aware of it it was like well that to me is a great definition of a friend that would that would say your name in a room you're not in or they would defend your reputation in a place where you're not able to do it and that to me is really significant and I found it with Chris, I found it with you.

23:13Jake Humphrey: And there's like people in your life that do that, that goes a long way. So when I heard Aldo saying it was a small thing he did for Jason Fox, I put in the toothpaste on his brush and just turning his bed down for him. But that goes a long way. Not just for me, I think for everyone that listens to this who'd recognise it. 100%. There will still be people listening to this though, who are thinking, why are you doing an episode or a conversation or a topic about friendship? Like, is it really that important? You know, your podcast is called High Performance. How is having friends going to get me to perform higher?

23:44So often it's the first thing we sacrifice. You know, we still laud this idea that I'm a self-made person. I can be a success story all on my own and that friendship is a distraction. And this is all about trying to achieve instant success. And we had Dr. Rangan Shatterjee on the podcast a while back. Brilliant guy. Amazing podcast of his own. Feel better, live more. Highly recommend that you listen to it and enjoy it. And we spoke to him about when people make the mistake. of not realising the importance of friendship in life. And his answer was fascinating. So let's hear Dr. Rangan Shatterjee.

24:17Alain de Botton: 35-year-old chap came in to see me, felt a bit indifferent about life, feeling pretty low. And I was asking him about his life and from the outside, like this guy was crushing it. Good job, running his own business, right, making good money, driving a sports car, right? He's got all those external metrics of success. and maybe people are listening right now going yeah that's what I want right but here's the thing I asked him because I was trying to figure out what's going on here why is he feeling so low why does he struggle to get out bed some mornings I said okay how how often do you see your friends and he said well you know you know I'm sort of I kind of see what they're up to on social media see them on Facebook and Instagram I know what they're doing um no I said how how often do you actually see them in real life.

25:08Alain de Botton: He goes, I'm just too busy. I don't have time. And so I checked other things out, but the prescription I gave to him, I said, okay, listen, for the next six weeks, I want you to see your friends in person once a week. Now he was lucky. He lived in the town where he grew up. So his friends actually live nearby. He just never saw them. I sent him away. He comes about six weeks later he's like a different person he bounces into the room and I said how are you feeling he goes Dr. Chachi I feel great I said what happened he goes well we started off on a Sunday morning we'd go to the local cafe and catch up over a latte and then after a few weeks that led to us restarting playing five a side once a week and essentially you know I'm not exaggerating one iota here he didn't have a you know a serotonin deficiency right he didn't have an antidepressant deficiency he had a friendship and relationship deficiency in his life we'll be right back after a quick word from our partners hey it's jay comfrey here from the high performance podcast and support for this show is brought to you by walden university do you ever catch yourself thinking, what if I could go after the thing I actually want and really make a difference in this life?

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28:46I can fully relate to that, right? Because it was about six months ago that Harriet said to me, come on, everyone's playing paddle. Why don't you join in? And I created this little paddle group of a bunch of guys playing paddle, like the rest of the world. I'm sure people are rolling their eyes now. Oh my God, another conversation about paddle. But you know what? The group, it's called Paddle Boys. There's maybe 20 of us on there. And it's grown and grown. It started with, for the first few weeks, I remember putting messages in going, hey guys, who's available for a game on Thursday? Who's available for a game on Monday?

29:14No replies. I remember one person replying, going, Jake, you've created the shittest attempt at a group of guys hanging out and playing a sport together that I've ever seen. But it's grown a little bit. And now there's two or three games happening every week. There's about 20 different people in the group. And you know what's really interesting is, of course, it's fun to get together and play paddle. but I think as guys like I do think we're different than like when I go home and speak to Harriet she's like oh what was the gossip and I'm like well we didn't I don't know we didn't really have any gossip she's like what your friend who's just had a baby you didn't think to ask how's the baby you're like oh no not really we were just fucking around and sometimes it doesn't need to be that deep sometimes it can just be taking the piss out of each other like having a game of paddle like laughing at the people that got beaten 6-0 and putting a photo in the paddle group of anyone that loses 6-0 with their shorts pulled down, like, because they've had their pants pulled down.

30:08It's like, it's that sort of just fun and that sort of relaxed kind of time together that you can go deep with people. And of course it's important to sit and have that moment as well. But like Dr. Rangan Shatterjee was saying, you know, going and just playing five-a-side football. It wasn't play five-a-side football and then go and have a two-hour deep conversation about life. Just playing the football is enough. For me and the guys, just playing paddle is enough. But there's a few things to unpick there

30:34Jake Humphrey: that I think people might find quite helpful. One is the persistence that you showed when you first got that silence in the WhatsApp group. Because I knew I needed it. And Harriet was very good at saying, you really need a group of guys. So stick with it. But there's research on it that says it takes roughly about 50 hours for somebody to become a casual friend. Is that right? So the idea of you keep plugging away until eventually those 50 hours are going to happen over the course of a year. You'll get together with different people. But it takes about 90 hours for somebody to become a friend.

31:09Jake Humphrey: And again, estimates say, and then another 200 hours for somebody to then establish themselves as a close friend because that's where... Let me work that out. So 200 hours. So if someone comes around, so if you hang out, you might hang out for two or three hours max with people. That's a long time. Yeah, but that's why... You see them a couple of times a month. Well, that's where the persistence is so good that you did it, that even just establishing this pattern of people and knowing they're safe to come along, eventually there'll be some within that group that I'd estimate you will get those 200 hours naturally in the course of playing paddle that some of them will make that transition from being a mate to being a friend, and then maybe there'll be one or two that becomes a close friend.

31:53You know what? It's so interesting you say this because it reminds me there's a guy on the group called Mark and the other day, totally out of the blue, he sent me a message. What did he say? He said, hey, Jake, I see a lot of your posts coaching others on how to improve their lives and I think, apart from family, who checks in on Jake and asks how he is? So here's a friend checking in on you to see how you are. Not that you'd necessarily want to discuss it, which is interesting, isn't it? Feel free to give me a call anytime. I'm okay, by the way. Just checking in on you. I hope you have an amazing holiday from Mark.

32:24Jake Humphrey: Wow. so in that one aldo kane two push gesture yeah that guy just sending you that it must have taken him two minutes to do it but i'd be interested in how long it took mark to think about should i do this should i not should i do it but the reality is that there's a brilliant study done by the psychologist holt ludstrand who it was a meta-analysis of a hundred and nearly 150 studies and they found that having stronger relationships like what mark is demonstrated for you there is linked to something like a 50 % higher likelihood of survival. So all the biometrics for your health and wellbeing improves by just being part of a group of people that have got your back.

33:03Jake Humphrey: So cherish them and recognise that it's a slow burn. You've got that centre purpose of replaying paddle together, but there's something going on underneath the surface of that that some people are now starting to make that transition from being people you know to being friends. and there'll be a couple that will make that transition into being a close friend, I'm sure. And I think this is interesting now, isn't it? Because I think what we need to do is challenge ourselves to look at the friendships in our life and be like, how can you kind of move these to the next level so they have even more value for the other people and for you?

33:38So I'd love to play a clip from Alain de Botton, who like every time he's on any podcast, I'm like, I am listening to this. I think he's an amazing guy. He has an incredible outlook on the world. but he sort of was really brilliant at talking to us about the hard questions, the deep questions, you know, scratching the surface. And I think having had this conversation with you, there's something that maybe with my group of guys that play paddle, maybe I should be the one to instigate a coffee afterwards and a bit of how are we all actually doing? Because it's actually only a few weeks ago I played a game and all four of us, it was a mate of mine who's a local businessman called Spencer, Tim, you know, former Norwich player, goalkeeper.

34:15and all of us admitted it's been at times a bit shit in the last couple of months and it was really interesting that we admitted that finished our game of Paddle and we're like see you later guys it's like hold on what's the next thing so let's play this clip from Alan to Botan because I'm sure there are many people in the same position that have a group of people that they're kind of they see a lot but they don't see them yeah yeah yeah here's Alan

34:39Alain de Botton: it could sound a bit odd how have I annoyed you recently I probably annoyed you how do you think I've annoyed you and to be able to listen to the answer without going that's not true that's not true but you've annoyed me you know not to do any of that simply to listen and you know therapists are good at teaching us this to reflect back it's not a way of thinking that's popular in the modern world but the notion that you know we are all sinners right you say that nowadays people go oh how do you mean sinners I'm not a sinner I'm fine I'm okay I'm beautiful it's quite a good starting point to go, you know, look, we're all a bit broken in some way.

35:15Alain de Botton: And that's okay. It's okay to be broken. We're just trying to, you know, fix ourselves. And that's okay. So it's a better starting point. And it's particularly useful in relationships because it breaks what could otherwise be a kind of cycle of defensiveness. And I think defensiveness is the great enemy of communication, growth in friendship and in relationships.

35:41Jake Humphrey: Alan's brilliant question there about when was the last time I annoyed you is one that you might go oh I feel a bit uncomfortable doing that there's some brilliant research that was done by a guy called Arthur Arons and his wife Elaine where they came up with 36 questions to see if you could help people fall in love and on some occasions people did fall in love but the reality was virtually everyone that went through the 36 questions walked away feeling a deeper connection and that's really what we're talking about here. And the questions were almost like, if you were to have a dinner party, who would be the three most desired guests you'd want there?

36:20Jake Humphrey: There'd be things like that. And the goal increasingly sort of required more disclosure, it'd be like, when was the last time you cried? Or something like that. But it was how the questions were asked that were most important, that you would ask the question and then listen really deeply to the other person saying it. But then the requirement was you would answer the question as well. So it was about disclosure. You've got to make yourself vulnerable for other people to have permission to be vulnerable as well. And I think it almost doesn't matter the questions you ask. You don't have to ask when did I last annoy you.

36:52Jake Humphrey: It's more the fact that you ask a question and really listen and then be willing to share something yourself as well. And the evidence from the Arthur Aron study tells us that that's where trust, generosity and cooperation start to really blossom. Brilliant. When did I last on all you? Look how awkward it is when you actually do it though. It is hard isn't it? Yeah probably I think I know when I did it to you was when I was late on the train in the summer when I texted you and I went I'm running an hour and a bit late and it was genuinely the train and I knew you were pissed off and I was like, I know I've annoyed you but I genuinely couldn't help it.

37:36Jake Humphrey: I'd given myself a two hour window. I was annoyed by that. I normally am pretty good on trains. No, no, I could tell you what. And I was annoyed that you were annoyed. Because I was like, but that was it. That was the reason. But I knew I'd annoyed you and I was annoyed at myself for annoying you because I'd still give myself a two hour window and not done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go on. When was the last time I annoyed you? I was well I don't remember being annoyed that you're on the train because I'm normally I live in Norwich I know today I was late because of the train and have I not annoyed you since the summer well I've not seen you that much have I but I'll tell you what saved me that day I'll tell you what saved me that day when Chris High that was at the event yeah he was then late because of the oh it was that event I was annoyed with you that day and I said to Chris High you know what it was I think that there'd been a few like lateness things and I was starting to get annoyed about it yeah yeah well over the summer And I'll tell you why I was annoyed.

38:31This is good, actually. It's because when we're doing like a record day like this, it doesn't bother me because I know we're fine. That was an onstage thing. Do you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe 500 people in the room. That piques my anxiety about delivering. And I'm like, the bit I cherish the most in those days is the 10 minutes we get where I'm like, what are we going to do? How are we going to make it work? What's the extras we can bring? How can we really make this fly? and because I was annoyed about losing that time to really make it great but yeah you remembered well so whatever I did I obviously made it fucking clear that I was annoyed

39:07Jake Humphrey: and I knew I'd annoyed you and I say but I was annoyed that like the whole situation and then fortunately when Chris Hoy turned up an hour and a half late because of the same issues on the train I remember saying to him I said thank you you've helped me resolve a bubbling argument that me and Jay were going to have and he's like why and I said I said I was telling him the trains were late and it sounds like a shitty excuse but the fact that you got caught in it and he was like oh I'm glad I've helped you so brilliant so Chris Hall you're an inspiration in so many ways including when you were inconvenienced by Avanti training isn't it a good reminder though just to keep telling each other or just keep talking let's play a really quick clip actually from do you remember Josh Warrington the boxer gave us a brilliant episode and he spoke the kind of opposite of what we're saying really he spoke about someone who told him a good thing not a bad thing the opposite of being annoyed I love this clip this is one of my favorite ever clips on the podcast here he is the brilliant josh warrington i remember going to drop some tickets off to one of my pals and i picked him up and then everyone going to this party on on the weekend come in and i remember saying to him oh he must be uh must buzzing for this party i've got it i can't go i've got it i can't go i went oh yeah you'll be training more you get ready for your fight he says yeah yeah how's it going i said yeah yeah i'm just a bit tired, I'm a bit tired, and he looked and he said, listen mate, don't fucking worry about this party, he said, same old, isn't it, same old, I said, yeah I know, but everyone's going to be there, and I just wish I was going, and I think he just said to me, listen, same old, we've been doing the same thing since we were 18, for three years we've been going to the same places, same people, doing the same thing, getting pissed at me and hang over, he says, it's fucking boring, so let me tell you now, from my point of view, any one of us what looks at you and thinks how does he do it and we all look at you and think wow we could be in our shows you know what I wish I'd have not got into this drinking and carried on with my contract with Yorkshire Amherst as a footballer because who knows I could have been somewhere where you are now fucking hell it would have kicked up the arse what I needed just at that moment in time you know just one of my pals who normally talks a load of shit and just tells you the worst jokes in the world all of a sudden he's given me a lesson in life but it were enough to give me a massive boost.

41:26I'm not missing out on much here. Yeah, it might look glamorous, everyone going out and getting pissed and like people do it now on the social media. See, how good is that? Because I think that's another great reminder for people listening to this episode. Don't assume that people know that you're impressed by them, that you're pleased that they're in your life, that you enjoy having them around, that you've seen them do things that are like, yeah, that's really fricking cool. Yeah. Tell them, tell them, man.

41:52Jake Humphrey: Well, there's a lovely, I was reading this recently a paper by Alison Wood Brooks from Harvard she's a psychologist and she tells that she was involved in a study of looking at commuters and um they realized that most people on the train sit in silence looking at the phone being distracted and she decided to initiate a piece of research where she got commuters and divided them up into half one group was told you just carry on your day you do what you need to do but the other half were told just try and find a moment of connection with another commuter and the way you do it is by just like pay them a compliment it might be i really like those shoes you're wearing or that scarf looks really good or what is it you're reading there it looks interesting and when they asked them before the experiment the people that were tasked with giving a compliment to somebody said how do you think you're going to feel and they're like i'm dreading it this is the worst thing i can imagine doing but we'll sign up for it when they interviewed them afterwards it was the people that did the compliments that came away going it was the best thing of my day it was that moment of connection sparks conversations and questions so there's research that says people often underestimate how surprised and happy just giving a compliment or saying thank you will actually make somebody and they overestimate how awkward it'll feel to do it so let's get over ourselves let's let's get over how awkward it might feel and let's stop underestimating the impact that can that can follow as a consequence of it what we need to do is water the grass yeah and if you're thinking what are you talking about what's that got to do with friendship here's the amazing shane parish to explain why watering the grass the same as my partner if i don't invest in that relationship constantly what happens well it just gets multiplied by zero and my friend peter kaufman has this great analogy which i find very visual and very useful, which is imagine a patch of grass between you and everybody in your life.

43:50Patch of grass between you and your kids, you and your partner at home, you and your parents. And if you water that grass every day and watering it looks like connection, watering it looks like time, watering it looks like whatever it looks like in the context of your relationship, but you have a general sense of what watering it looks like. Well, a spark, what's gonna happen to wet grass? nothing just dies i mean that's a really good example of the kim scott brilliant book radical

44:19Jake Humphrey: candor where it's about you can care about somebody personally and still challenge them you know so she talks about the idea of that you never do that you always tell people you're amazing you're great i've got no issues with you kim describes that as ruinous empathy and if we go back to josh warrington's example that i said i love the fact that that's a almost like a textbook example of the opposite of ruinous empathy that was his mate recognizing josh was having a wobble but caring enough about him to challenge him to say don't don't lose focus now we all really admire the sort of spartan lifestyle you're living because we know what it's going to eventually lead to what is the relationship in your life that you have not watered enough this year uh i was uh having this conversation this morning because i i feel like i've got um a group of my oldest mates that i'm um i'm the one that's always trying to initiate the dates and like whatsapp polls are brilliant for me because i like sending out the days like you can do this what we do and uh and it's often like a logistical nightmare trying to organize people to like we the majority of us can do this day so we're going to go ahead and doing it and um we'd arranged a date for tomorrow to meet up with the three of us and then i text my friend this morning to say when and my friend is the one that moans most about never catching up never we never see each other often enough i texted this morning to make arrangements he said oh i've already planned something else tomorrow night i can't make it now he's teaching so i didn't get a chance to speech him but i sent him a text this morning and said please don't ever let me hear a complaint from you again that we don't meet up often enough that you've not checked that we're not available so it's that really so I can be annoyed at the fact that it's not happening, but it's actually a reflection that I'm not watering the seeds of that friendship enough that he would be so casual to change plans and not think of the inconvenience it had caused.

46:17So once I got over the annoyance,

46:20Jake Humphrey: it was a bit of reflection this morning. I think I need to expect more time to do that. Yeah, it's good. What about you? Two of my oldest friends, actually, Harvey, who you know. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant Harvey. He filled with us in LA. he's called me two or three times it's all the time difference is always awkward I keep thinking I must call Harvey then I realise it's like ten in the morning and he lives in LA so it's like there's a middle of the night for him and I just need to plan it better so even last weekend he messaged said are you around this weekend we're recording this conversation on a Thursday and I haven't called him it's like five days shit isn't it and then another really odd friend a guy called Stephen Scowan who I went to school with he was my best mate at school we had our 18th birthday party together and again we've just lost touch over the last couple of years but we share a birthday at a similar time.

47:07So last month we were messaging each other going, oh mate, happy birthday, been too long, we've got to sort this out. And his last message was, when are you free? I haven't replied. It's been nearly a month. It's shit. So it's little things like that, man. Yeah, but doesn't time like, it's a thief. It's a thief. if you don't even realise how long or how quickly it flies by.

47:30Jake Humphrey: But the one thing I would say to you, though, Jake, is honestly, stop using some of that strident, self-critical language like, it's shit, I've not done this. Because the reality is you are busy. You've got a pitiful agenda. So it's not shit. Yeah, but people eventually just go, do you know what? Maybe, but he hasn't. You know what I mean? He's just reached it out. And I think you don't need to beat yourself up for not doing it. I think it's just sort of be a bit kinder to yourself. And even if you just explain and said, it might be a couple of months, but let's put a date in. Like do that rather than sort of beat yourself up for not doing it.

48:04Jake Humphrey: Because I think that then keeps us rooted in that shame that we're not investing time in it rather than being proactive enough to do that. You're very good, Professor. Before we finish, we've got some comments from people at home. There's a lovely one here. We put an episode out a little while ago called Why You Can't Stop Comparing Yourself. If you've enjoyed this conversation, maybe check that one out. And Nuno said, Jay, Damon, I've listened to your podcast for years. This is one of the most impactful conversations I've heard from you two. Your podcast is a breath of fresh air. Your reflections are straight to the point while leaving plenty of room for us to reflect on our own.

48:36So thank you. As a communication and behavior consultant here in Portugal, your podcast always makes it into the toolbox I share with my clients. I hope they take the time to listen because it's 100 % worth it. So Nuno Damascino, I think I pronounced your surname right. Thank you so much for the support all the way from Portugal.

48:53Jake Humphrey: we massively appreciate it yeah that's really kind you know this is one of the things that we talk about friendship but sometimes when we record these we don't know where it goes into the world and who's listening to it so when you get feedback like that you know the impact it has on us makes us realize how how significant it is when we pay compliments or just do something nice for others as well it's brilliant and you're a great friend like doing this podcast with you I was thinking actually Harriet was saying to me the other day she's like how much longer do you think you know high performance keeps on going I was like well it just keeps going like there's no end to it people always ask it how long does a podcast last well Desert Island Discs has been going for years goes on forever and she's like and Damien feels the same and I'm like yeah I think he does but I should probably check with him which is quite important and then I was cleaning my teeth I had this thought like imagine if you were like do you know what I feel like after 500 episodes and 7 years I'm ready for a new challenge oh my god I feel so lonely doing this podcast without you.

49:51Mainly because these Wednesday episodes wouldn't happen. But no, in all seriousness, I really would hate to do this on my own. I love doing it with you and make such a difference.

49:59Jake Humphrey: And you know what I said to you about the friendship? Like this is, like I feel that as we've gone through this journey together, it's got that idea of we've done well over 200 hours in each other's company and hanging around together, I feel. And that one moment was a good few years ago now when you did stick up for me. So it was the moment in my head where I moved you as a chess piece from being a friend to a good friend because only a good friend would have done that. So thank you. Good man. Thank you, mate. Cheers. Look, I hope you've enjoyed this conversation. Like I said at the beginning, I would love you just to send this chat to one person and just say, this is a conversation about friendship and it made me think of you.

50:39It could just be the catalyst that launches you into a whole new season with the people around you. Thank you very much for listening. Please make sure you like, share, and subscribe for these conversations. And remain humble, curious, and empathetic. And we'll see you next time.

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