The Real ROI of Influencer Partnerships Beyond Sales w/ Ashton Wall (GateMaker Community)

0:00So I really think if you are doing marketing correctly and you're really leveraging creators, you don't look at them as the vehicle that pushes quite literally everything forward.

0:15hey ashton welcome to the show how are you thank you i'm good how are you so good it's so good you know we are like in a easy q4 or influencer market we all know right the brands want to right activate every campaign possible last minute so it's i have a story i had a brand call me gosh what is today november 8th i had a brand call me on october 31st on halloween and said we really want to up the ante in October. Can you call Taylor Swift? Okay, sure. Wes? Absolutely. I have it on my phone here on my, you know, like messages and, oh my God, yes, sometimes that happens. And, you know, maybe we can also, you know, talk about a bit more how to, you know, organize in the proper way, right, campaigns so that expectations are met, right, on both sides.

0:59But before we get started, right, and we get in the ins and outs of the episode today, can you please tell us a bit more about yourself? And we use this thing called the map. Basically, it's divided in three different sections. It's the mission. So basically, what do you aim to achieve with your work? The achievements, anything that you're really proud of, notable milestones could be in your life, career, or both, if you want. And the last one is the purpose. So why do you do what you do? Yeah, I love that. So my mission and what I'm after is really, I think, restore the integrity of marketing.

1:28I think that there's been so much amazing marketing tech innovation, especially in digital in the last 15 years. But I fear that maybe Facebook and Google, like traditional ads through Facebook and Google, have led a lot of people to lose their way and kind of lose the creativity and the human touch of brands. And I think that that's being restored through creators. And I'm so passionate about that. In terms of achievements, gosh, professionally, I think, you know, I was really, really lucky to be in the right place at the right time with Seed Beauty, which incubated the Kardashian brands and ColourPop, which really understood creators and earned media value before most.

2:04And so now kind of my life's work is tied to that way of marketing. Personal achievements, I think you could probably tell in my background, I live in Paris and I'm really, really proud of that and love that aspect of my life. I spend a good amount of time in California throughout the year still, though. And then in terms of, you know, what I'm looking to do is get creators paid for their work, get creators paid for their work and match brands with the right creators. I'm really, really passionate about that. And, you know, what's that saying that, like, if you didn't, if you woke up tomorrow and you didn't need a job, what would you do?

2:34I would still do this. I really would. Love it. And, you know, also congrats again, you know, moving to Paris. What I say all the time is that I think it's everyone, if they can, they should go around the world and work from different places, learn about other cultures, different point of views. There is so much like to learn many times to realize that people maybe don't leave their country and they somehow like, you know, they're only looking at things in one way and, you know, only going around talking with different people, different cultures who can really learn a lot, again, for your personal life, but also business related, right?

3:06So that's great that you're doing that. And so I would like to start, you know, talking about marketing in general. And you like describe it as like a solar system, right? If I recall correctly, like there was this like analogy with that. And can you tell me more like, first of all, like why do you envision like that? And then in this framework specifically, what is the role of influencer marketing? yeah definitely so i really think influencers and and creators are kind of like the sun they are the center of that solar system and not i think they power every channel so i think where a lot of brands who are a lot of brands and businesses are new to this they think oh influencer and creators are a channel and i don't think that at all i think they power everything because yes they have the earned media aspect and not they're amplifying a message or they're amplifying a brand but in terms of creative direction, in terms of producing assets, it far exceeds what can be done in the earned media lane, meaning it powers owned media and then it also powers paid media and all of the channels under that subset.

4:12So I really think if you are doing marketing correctly and you're really leveraging creators, you don't look at them as an earned media vehicle. You look at them as the vehicle that pushes quite literally everything forward. Do you think that now every brand is getting it or like is there still like room for improvement there because again i've been working in influencer market for 10 years and 10 years ago the question was like what is influencer market right and then five years ago was like okay tell me more and now it's like what is going to be the ROI and these are some of the brands are getting it but there are still others right they're still trying to right navigate it so what is your experience in on that yeah i think um i think the top 20 % of brands in whatever category or vertical they're in get it very well.

4:56And then I think everyone else is, as you said, they understand it's important. They understand they should be trying it, but I don't think they understand the role. So like you even touched on what is the ROI? That's the question I get all the time of, you know, in the paid partnership lane or even in the gifting lane, right? Because gifting costs money. But in the paid partnership lane, okay, I hired this creator and I paid them, I'm just making it up$5 ,000. What did they regenerate for me in sales but it's it's so much more than that and I think that's a really I think that's like the Facebook and Google way of thinking of like oh let me track every little every little thing and be able to attribute revenue back but that's not really that's not really how you should look at it you should look at it is how strong was the piece of content where else could I use the piece of content with usage rights of course what did it do in terms of credibility in terms of authority in terms of engagements in terms of discoverability right There's so much more than just I put$5 ,000 in, I got, what did I get out?

5:49I think that's really like a ROAS, ROAS way of thinking. And by the way, I used to be like a ROAS monster. So I am a recovering performance marketer, which I think helps me really kind of get brands on this journey because when they speak that way, I think I used to be you. I used to just say, I put this amount in. What did I get back? Okay. And then my thinking really changed. Oh, yeah. Totally spot on. Like, as you said, many brands are still looking at, okay, if I put one, how much do I get out? And they do not sometimes, unfortunately, focus or realize that, as you said, there is much more, right?

6:23You have content that you can reuse. You have the, you know, comment section that you can read and learn about, like, you know, what your customer are thinking about your product. Like, there is, again, so much, right? And hopefully, right? Maybe it's going to take a bit more, but hopefully we're going to get to a direction where brands understand that. They don't want to use influencer marketing as just, again, as you said, it would be Facebook ads or Google ads, right? So that is also like our role, right? To educate them and basically bring into this journey together. So tell me a bit more like about that.

6:53How do you help, you know, on two sides, maybe, you know, the clients, right? And brands, but also creators. Which one do you like to like start with? Oh, God, that is such, I've never been asked that question. That's a great question. I would say I really like to start with the brands because I spent my whole career prior to founding gate maker on the brand side so I've never worked at an agency I've never worked as an external partner before founding my own which is like hilarious but where I'm going with that is I really deeply understand the brands I understand the seat that they're sitting in I understand the goals that they have the things that stress them out the things that excite them so I really I really love working with marketing teams and I really love working with founders like I love founders.

7:32I love entrepreneurs and kind of talking them through that and learning what makes their business unique because every business is so unique and has such unique challenges and such unique advantages. So I love really studying that with the team and the founders and then thinking about how this channel can help them because the way you run influencer, it's not like, it's not like running a Facebook ad. I mean, you can run Facebook ads in so many different ways, I guess, but an influencer, there are so many ways to do it, right? Are you super exclusive and super prestige and you don't pay people are you more we're for everybody and we want a gift and seed to anyone that that wants to try us there's and there's so many things in between so yeah i love starting with the brands but i love working with creators and influencers too i i love it and i love coaching them to think about think about what the brand wants think about like play the long game think about this as a long-term relationship not a transaction that might have been more than you asked for on on the coaching like what are the things that come up the most like have you noticed either some sort of patterns or mistakes that be made or again those things that some creators maybe don't even think about it because you know i'm asking that because in other episodes we discussed it about that many of the creators and influencers are great at doing their job in terms of creating content you know influencing others but there are like so many other things that they might not be you know looking even at and they need the guidance so again is there something that you are finding out in the past years coming up more than others Yeah, on the creator side, I see a ton of wins and I try to use those wins to coach other creators.

9:03And then I do see mistakes. So a mistake I see a lot is if we are reaching out on behalf of a brand for gifting and seeding, saying, hey, I love your content. I really think based on what you've posted, you would resonate with this brand and this product. We'd love to send it to you. No strings attached. much a lot of time what I get back is not a lot of time but some of the time what I'll get back is thank you so much this brand looks super interesting I agree that I align with it but I only do paid deals and I kind of think to myself that's really short-sighted you know I'm not I'm not saying that if you don't connect with it certainly decline but if you do connect with it but you're saying the only way I'm ever going to post about this or engage is if they're paying me I think man play the long game because if this is interesting to you you should try the product and your audience is counting on you to always recommend new product, review products, kind of be the guinea pig on their behalf.

9:52So maybe give it a shot. And if it doesn't work or doesn't speak to you, amazing. I don't think you should do work for free. But I would say when I see that, I always think, oh, that's really short-sighted. And I feel like someone's coaching them to be really transactional. Another mistake I'll see is, and I see it more with agents and managers and the creators themselves, where they'll coach creators to say, okay, XYZ brand is paying you for a paid partnership. And they are, this is the scope and this is the price. Do not do a single thing more than what you're contracted to do. And I always say, oh my gosh, it goes such a long way.

10:27If a brand says, hey, we're paying you for an Instagram reel and a TikTok and a one story post, if you like shout them out in another reel, it can even be like less than five seconds of something else you were making, or you give them a couple stories with a swipe up or just even a story shout out if it's in your everyday routine. One, it means so much to the brands, but two, they notice that and it's going to make them want to book you again. So I think sometimes agents and managers will coach the creators and say, if you're not getting paid for it, don't do it. But I always think, I think that's really short term thinking.

10:58Kind of like it would be like an employee saying, I'm paid to work eight hours a day. So the minute that clock hits five, I'm out of here. and I always think in theory yes but if you stayed 15 minutes later one day just to help out with something you're probably more likely to get promoted it kind of works the same in the creator lane so I certainly don't believe in free work that I do believe about in surprise and delight and do a little bit more than what people are expecting of you because it will just take you further especially because it's so competitive these days right they're like it like to get noticed in like this like a group of people that and again I agree with you like you should be paid for everything, absolutely.

11:35But again, as you said, maybe an extra shout out here and other little things there. What is going to make you maybe be renewed for another agreement, another work right in the future because you did the extra mile. And again, sometimes, as you said, the extra mile doesn't have to be crazy hours or crazy work that is not going to be unpaid. It's the little thing. Could be sometimes just like even like an email that is going to thank maybe the brand again for the opportunity. Like these small things, right? That at the end of the day, as you said, it's long term. And in every work, it's about building a relationship, building your persona, your personal branding.

12:09That takes time. It's not going to be like overnight, right? Success type of things. It takes years and years to get to that point, right? Exactly. And on that note, you know, with this whole notion of I don't talk about brands unless I'm paid. Well, I would say, well, how do you think the brands discover you? They discover you because you tag them and you make content about them. Like that's how their marketing team finds you in a sea of hundreds of thousands of viable options. So I would say like also, you know, if your dream is to collaborate with, I'm just making it up maybe because Paris, I don't know.

12:38If your dream is to collaborate with Saint Laurent, you should make content about them and you should try to emulate their aesthetic and try to be noticed by their marketing team. And I think you'll have a much better chance of it happening. Is your brand ready to amplify its reach while the influencer marketing factory is here for you? We are a global influencer marketing agency helping brands ignite their growth. From influencer identification to campaign strategy, handling legalities and agreements, to managing shipping and logistics, we got you all covered. We work with hundreds of brands across different verticals, from Fortune 500 companies to direct-to-consumer brands.

13:15And we don't just stop there. With detailed ROI analysis, we help brands like yours measure success, transforming impressions into conversions. You can find us at theinfluencermarketingfactory.com or just searching the Influencer Marketing Factory on Google.

13:54like get back to you and be like, we love this one, this video that you made about us. Can we pay the media rights, right, to maybe use it somewhere else? And again, like it's a win-win, right? Because and then you get discovered even more, getting more opportunities. So that's exactly right. That is like you hit the nail on the head. And so, you know, on the brands perspective instead, right, because it is for the creators. Brands, again, they have like so many options these days, right? As we said before, we have paid affiliate marketing. And now there is a lot of social commerce happening, especially on TikTok shop.

14:27As you said, the gifting, seeding, right? There is so much. How can they find, I don't know if we can say perfect balance. It's a bit difficult, right? In marketing, it's a perfect balance. But are you noticing like sort of like splitting budgets towards certain things in particular? Are brands trying different things at the same time? you know all the time there is the Pareto principle that 80-20 right so I'm trying to figure out if brands are doing 80-20 these days are they trying to do 20-20-20-20 like and trying to split them out like what are you seeing happening these days? Yeah I'm seeing completely different ratios across the board based on where the brand is in their awareness journey and their affinity journey so and I'll give you two examples let's say you're a skincare brand which is like you know one of the fastest growing categories right now and I certainly think there are there are more innovations to be had in skincare, but it is a very competitive place to go.

15:19If you are a new skincare brand, I don't know that I would start with affiliate and more bottom funnel conversion driven activations with creators. I think you're in a place where you need to get the word out. You need that credibility. You need that authority. You just need that buzz. And then from there, once your awareness is going up, and there are so many ways to determine that without spending an arm and a leg on a brand lift study, because I totally do not believe in those, that might be is price to take. So I would focus more on kind of that earned media value building that community. Another example would be, let's say you're a brand that has a ton of brand awareness, but maybe you just had a class action lawsuit or a big scandal and you need to really pivot how you're perceived.

16:00I think I would focus on more kind of that top of funnel awareness. But let's say you're a brand like Rode or Rare Beauty. Those brands have so much awareness, such strong affinity, such hype that I think there's now a time where you can bring in partners that are really going to drive the bottom funnel conversion and will be so excited to be a part of that and be offered something like that because it's going to be very lucrative for them too. Yeah, but to answer your question, different split completely across the board. It really, really depends on the brand. And have you noticed any case studies, campaigns that you liked a lot and why?

16:40In my own work with brands or just in general, both? I would like both. Yes. Okay. So in general, I would say, gosh, yeah, I think I really, really enjoy watching BK Beauty. They just crush it on TikTok shop. I think they deeply, deeply understood. Well, one, they're founded by a creator. So I love that. And what an advantage. We understand the journey, but I think they've done an incredible job migrating their community over to TikTok shop and really understanding how to monetize that. So I think they're one of the best in class and like a master class at that. In terms of my own work, a case study that I love is Milk Makeup.

17:17Milk Makeup, we aided them in the launch of an incredible new innovation called Cooling Water Jelly Tint. So it's like a really innovative jelly lip and cheek stain. Incredible. And we really took an earned media route to that launch in the sense that we were seeding and gifting to influencers that we felt were perfect for this launch. Like we did a scorecard on them of like likelihood to post, likelihood to retain, likelihood to connect with the product. And what ended up happening from a content perspective was it went viral in a way that you would not even believe on TikTok. And they sold out every single Sephora nationwide worldwide.

17:54not nationwide, worldwide. And that was simply from a gifting and seeding campaign where we did not brief the creators. We said, talk about it however you want to talk about it. And it was incredible. And because of this, you said, you know, finding the right people, right? The scorecard and everything. Can we dig in a bit more about how crucial it is to find the right influencers? Because, you know, too many times I see brands that they are missing maybe a piece of like insights in terms of either the demographics or historical data, right? And they only look at the few metrics that have been, in my opinion, like very outdated, that they only tell you part of the story, right?

18:31And if you pull like the same numbers, one next to the other, they could be the same numbers, totally different stories, right? Totally different influencers and others, right? So can you tell me a bit more like, you know, because it's so crucial, how would be the best way to really approach finding the right people? because after that, the part is done, I don't want to say that everything else is easy, but at least it helps drastically. Oh God, I'm so glad you touched on that. And that's exactly right. I think that a lot of brands, like honestly, in my work, probably 85 % of brands are still looking at those outdated metrics, which is what's their following, what's their gate rate.

19:06And that is not going to, certainly you should look at those. I'm not saying to turn a blind eye into it, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. And I really look at like a community holistically. And what do I mean by that? I mean that when you look at a community of creators that are creating content and on your behalf and advocating your messages on your behalf, they all need to play their part. So a lot of times we'll submit creators for gift to be gifting and seeding recipients or maybe even paid partners. And the brand will come back and say, absolutely not. Their engagement rate is too low.

19:37And I say, well, let's zoom out on that for a second because this person's engagement rate is lower than maybe what you would like to see because their post frequency is so high. They are posting six times a day. They can't possibly maintain a huge engagement rate when the post frequency is really high. Conversely, maybe somebody with a very, very high engagement rate is posting less. But they both have their place. Like they both have their place in making up the community. And then, of course, you know, the obvious things of maybe they're really, really niched down and what you are selling and what you are offering is so aligned with what their content is about that that needs to count for something outside of, you know, the kind of vanity metrics, as I call them.

20:20And, you know, a story I always love to tell is I remember at ColourPop, we did a we did a lot of influencer collaborations where we would have people kind of put their name and develop product with us. And there was a collaboration that we did with a YouTuber that was really niche and at the time had less than 500 ,000 subscribers. About a year prior, there was a collaboration with an Instagram personality that had millions and millions of followers. The person with the millions and millions of followers, I believe there's still inventory to this day that hasn't sold through. The person with some 500 ,000 followers that was only predominantly active on YouTube, they sold out within three minutes.

20:55So you can't, and I think the engagement rates were comparable. So there's just, there's so much more there to look at than just kind of those top line metrics. Totally, especially because this is what I say all the time. Engagement rate is just a number. The quantity of the archipelago doesn't tell you anything. And I say this example all the time. You might have someone with three comments, but each comment is very specific. Five lines of comments about everything. And then you have another one with 10 comments and their emoji comments. The engagement rate is going to be higher on the one with the emoji comments only because there are more.

21:34It doesn't mean they are better or they are insightful, right? So again, I say all the time, take that with that, you know, all the time with the perspective that is only telling you as very small part of the story. These days it's so easy to buy likes, buy comments, buy whatever, right? Also, there is another thing to take into consideration. And so I know that maybe engagement pods are not a thing anymore, but they used to be, right? So just to say, again, I think the brands have to take the time and like doing their homework and really look at the qualitative part and not anymore as you said the vanity metrics they were okay maybe 10 years ago but not anymore right it's time to change on that i think the other thing too is i i see a lot from brands that will say i sell skincare so i only want to partner with skincare creators and i'm like yeah why but yeah but every everybody uses skincare to something exactly like chefs stay-at-home moms yoga instructors so yeah i I see that a lot where it's like, no, no, no, I'm skincare.

22:28So I don't want to work with beauty or no, I'm hair. I don't want to work with lifestyle. And it's like, but you absolutely should. Everyone washes their hair. Exactly. It could be the same for like, you know, food and recipes. Not only chefs cook, everyone cooks at home. And actually you can get a different, you know, like a part of the, of society, right? That they might even touch sometimes. Times are completely different. But as you said, everyone needs like skincare or like, you know, product for their hair. They had to eat something and drink something, right? And no matter who you are or your career, you still do that.

22:59And still continue on this, because again, we said how important it is for brands to look at creators. Let's say that they identify them, right? The next step is to reach out to creators. What would be some of the best do's and don'ts, some of the best do's and things to avoid, in your opinion, when again, you're a brand, you reach out to, right? In the past, we discussed that about, of course, as a creator, should never just bulk email a bunch of brands without a connection. The same also, right? It should be from the brand just randomly sending a bunch of emails to people. But is there anything else that you would recommend?

23:35Like you are a brand original to a type of influencers and creators once you selected them. One thing I see all the time is if you tell a creator you really love their content, I hope you really love their content. I hope you've liked something before. I hope you've commented on something before. Or maybe you even follow them. You don't need to follow all of them. And I hope you've actually really watched it because they can tell when you're when they're getting a generic message versus like a canned message. The other thing I would say is, you know, as a brand, one thing I hear all the time is, why would I pay or reach out to people that are already talking about me?

24:07And I think, oh, my goodness, because you want to show that reciprocity and you want to you want to keep them and keep them from being poached by a competitor that will pay more attention to them. And if if they're showing you love, you need to do it back. But I hear that more than more than you would think of like, well, they're already talking about me. So let me find new people. It's like not necessarily. Or I'll have a lot of brands that are really, really focused on acquisition. So it's like I need to be adding new people to my community. I need to be gifting and seeding like crazy. And I think, oh, my gosh, but you already have 10 ,000 people in your community.

24:39What are you what are you doing with those? because the best community members you are going to get are the ones you already have and take really good care of them before you start onboarding in Drove. So I see that a lot too, where you see it with companies, with customers, right? Where acquisition becomes a band-aid for a retention issue. The same is true for creators and communities. Totally. Like, you know, it's similar to when it comes to SaaS businesses. In the past years, it was all about acquisition and then they realized, wait, let's focus on retention and churn rate because if you're able to keep our current customers happy, we all know that it's easier and cheaper to upgrade an existing customer and keep it there for a longer time than all the time having to, right?

25:21The same exactly should be also for Infants of Mind. If it works for other branches of marketing, why not also adopting the same concept, right? That kind of universal on that, right? And is there anything else I didn't ask you today that you are excited about in the industry? Something maybe is coming up soon or something that you're like locally, like, you know, closely looking at these days that you would like to share with us? I'm really, really into live selling and live shopping. I don't think that that's new, but I do think the prevalence of that and the dominance of that is going to be new to the US market in terms of how serious it is and how mainstream it's going to become.