S1 EP2: Craig David on relationships, celibacy and Bo Selecta

32:12And then all of a sudden, it's sort of like it's jumped to here we are, three nights sold out. And I'm looking up and I'm like, wow. And then when I jumped on stage, I was still like, is someone going to pull the rug underneath my feet at some point did I fluke this whole thing are they here to see someone else because it can't be for me I remember how hard and difficult it was to get the music seen and be heard when you're working the community centers and trying to get a little 15 minute DJ set down in Southampton all of a sudden like between seven to ten thousand people a night at Wembley Arena wow it started the whole thing of someone's gonna pull the rug this must be for someone else first number one this is great but when is this whole thing gonna come down and that ran for years part of me was always feeling like did I really do this and when I saw Big Nasty that day that's funny we're talking 2015 how many years later right for him to say that to me to bring me back to say no no no no no no this is you the penny just dropped in a way that was like I did create all these songs and I'm grateful for every single part of this and for the first time I'm really realizing that I can incorporate and bring back that fragmented part of me which was keep it humble you don't talk about your successes because something will bring you down and this all does double down into a way culturally I've been raised that if you get a bit too high above your station you'll be pulled back down so you kind of you're just trying to culture are you talking about like southampton or no it's a very british culture get a little too big for your boots we do i mean we'll bring you back down a peg i think in a way some of the both selected stuff comes from that a bit and so seeing oh here's a guy he's really good looking talented very smooth and there's a kind of british trait of wanting to puncture that instead of seeing it for what it is which is sort of self-pride professionalism talent it was when you're having success but yet then you're being brought down to earth in the way that you were just explaining then it kind of brought it back full circle I was like well okay you rear your head up someone's going to bring you back down and that's really why we need to talk about it and I need to be able to speak my truth openly and candidly so it's there for the record to not talk on it would allow the same thing to happen all over again this is like my third chance at speak your truth should have spoken my truth when I was at school to the bully should have speaking my truth over Bo Saleta at the time now I'm getting a chance to speak when it's not from an emotional place it's from a healed place you know I can really relate to that sense of of someone telling you that they value what they do and it feeling important because I'm someone who I think sort of needed someone to believe in me first before I believe in myself if that doesn't sound weird like in if I can make it more concrete like I never sort of grew up thinking oh I'm really good at making documentaries or I think I could be quite funny and insightful presenting shows on TV.

35:11I never had that dream for myself, but it was something that over the years other people saw in me and enabled me to do. And here I am, whatever, 25 years later having had a career and it's sort of extraordinary. And if I hear you correctly, part of what you heard from Big Nasty was this sort of sense of, no, we see you as someone special. However you see yourself, you've done way more than you realize for legions of people you know around the UK people who are now in the music industry or aspiring to be in it and then that feels more real and it's a shame in a way that we may need that but I think I sometimes think about how I couldn't have achieved anything of what I've done if I hadn't had those people sort of encouraging me and saying you can do this does that make sense absolutely I fully relate with that I can get the cheer from a crowd and it's it's incredible that feeling yeah and I and I'm in awe of how that experience is but then you also need someone that will be real with you like I have with Colin which I come back to our relationship super real you still want life to become magical and you ultimately want to be able to own it to know that you don't necessarily need an external force to tell you if you're doing something right or wrong I think that that gets to a point where I've realized now I know when I'm in my truth I know when I'm in my integrity because my heart drops I'm calm I'm speaking clearly and it's not emotional it's not charged it's just why are we here today Louis what we're achieving through this because I'm learning as much about you than as I am about me because I find like these kind of podcasts and zoom calls are amazing because they can just be people spouting information back to each other or there can be a moment where you get to meet someone and you say wow oh you're torian too okay cool i know that you like to steal the chocolates from from your kids before they can get like definitely do do that i love that i was really excited that we were going to have this conversation because i've seen how articulate and how graceful you are and holding space to allow people to do the same because you're giving people a platform it's wicked thank you

37:25you're listening to the Louis Theroux podcast

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38:41Hi, I'm Louis Theroux and you're listening to the Louis Theroux podcast. And now back to my conversation with Craig David. I want to circle back and talk about you coming up in Southampton. I've got questions about your dad, who I know is a musician, but there's something I want to just touch on before we move on. And you must feel free, if it's not a comfortable subject, because I've never seen you talk about it, then we don't need to touch it. but one of the things I read about in preparing for the interview was that you'd had quite a serious brush with a stalker. Yeah that was something that I wish upon no one.

39:14For me and this is again something I talk about in the book quite clearly is something that I didn't have I had a lack of boundaries and knowing where that boundary is if you haven't got some sort of demarcation between two houses and someone comes in and they're having a house party in your back garden because there's no fence there and you're kind of a little bit kind of like what the hell's going on here where it's like well how was anyone supposed to know where your gardens stopped and where my one finished so good fences make good neighbors is the relevant poetic quote from robert frost robert frost understood it so well and when you knock on that door to say would you like to come in and enjoy this garden party we're having all of a sudden you have a really nice kind of rapport between the two of you and it's very amicable.

39:59My boundaries were a bit skewed in terms of giving so much love out on stage and performing and then feeling that especially with social media as well because you have the ability to be able to say congratulations or well done you have a much closer relationship now through social media with your audience. Now I didn't know that that could then allow someone in their mind to think that that actually is a lot closer it's almost like you've given your phone number out or you've given like your details so unfortunately when it came to the stalking in her mind it was very much that she thought that there was something for her that was like she thought she was your girlfriend i think that's the thing at first it was like you know what arm's length arm's length arm's length i'm creating boundaries okay i see it but that's not the case I don't know you but then when you turn up at my house or you're sending letters to my parents telling them that that's the case that was where I had to for the first time in my life I had to pick up the phone and call the police again it was like I don't do that I don't you know I mean I can deal with this you called the police and it became a legal case and did she get a sentence off it the injunction was put in place were you ever physically unsafe as far as you're aware or how did it affect you mentally do you know what it's the mental part that was the hardest part of all of it because you could easily say there is no physical problem here like she's not going to hurt you in any way but mentally because I couldn't get a read on where this information was coming from why she was acting this way why even with the police being involved was still not quite understanding that part then did become more of an issue for me because it was something that there was no read on it.

41:45It was like, I don't know what the next thing is. And we've seen how it can then escalate to a much worse place. How long did it last? The actual stalking had gone on for years. Seriously? In different ways it had gone on for years. And I tried to be like, give the benefit of the doubt, give the benefit of the doubt, give the benefit of the doubt. You'll get the message, you'll get the message. This is nothing, this is not real. Like to the point now you're not getting any response. Then you'd find out where I am. To go to those lengths to find out where I was, it wasn't that easy, to be honest.

42:12and to also find my parents' address. That for me, when my parents were involved, I was like, no, no, no, no. It's a real catch-22 as well because you can engage, but then in some way you're feeding the energy by paying attention to it, or you can ignore it, but that also doesn't feel satisfactory because taking no action at all doesn't feel like a solution either, right? Anyway. When it gets to a point at which you feel like you're being violated or it's crossed those boundaries. And for me, like I said, it was a great example of learning where my boundaries were and how I had a lack of boundaries.

42:49I mean, I hear the boundaries point, but does it sound like you did anything in terms of failing to police your boundaries in this case? But in terms of actually picking up the phone and calling the police, that's the part. It was like a year too late for me. That's what I'm saying. It's like I tried to give the benefit of the doubt as being the open heart that I have of like, you know what? I know you're just a bit overzealous no no no no no no no you've overstepped it and I'm so grateful and thankful that I did because the police officers were amazing like the detective who came over and we sat down he said listen we've got you we're going to sort this out for you but when he started to write and he was taking the notes and he read it back to me I said man you need to be able to write novels my man the way that you've written this is so articulate what do you get in English he said well I've got to be in English I said be in English I said man you You've settled yourself.

43:40It was just like we were talking about nudging people to fulfil their talent. He might have needed to hear that from you. Maybe he's writing his novel at the moment. I think he should. We found the next Tom Clunchy. He was a lovely guy. He was a really, really beautiful man. Shout out. He might be listening. So if you're out there. I hope he is, man. Let's go back and talk about you growing up. And also, in passing, can we reflect on the fact that, like Big Nasty, for me, that album, Born to Do It, was a milestone. And I remember seeing it at the time and thinking, wow, I'm quite a supporter of British music and the idea of us having homegrown talent at the highest level.

44:15And when you appeared on the scene, what struck me was, wow, there's this guy who's fused elements of UK Garage and R &B. He's got an exquisite voice. You had Fraser T. Smith playing his acoustic guitar trills and the whole look and feeling of the sound and just everything about the videos felt fully formed. And you were, what, 19 years old? Yeah. It was an extraordinary musical debut and kind of moment in homegrown pop culture. But I'm curious to know, like when you were coming up, what you were listening to and what was feeding into your sort of musical worldview? I've got a really sort of lovely upbringing of cross-reference of artists from, wow, Stevie Wonder and Donny Osmond.

45:00Really? Donny Osmond? I wasn't expecting to hear that name. Any track in particular? Yeah, Puppy Love. Remember Puppy Love? Yeah, and they called it Poppy Love Big tune Yeah, big tune Is it a big tune? I don't know I'm on the fence with that one That seems a little bit Before your time though Was that your mum's album? Your mum's music? Yeah, my mum was a huge Huge fan of the Osmonds She'd tell me about How there was like Stampedes outside their hotels And she painted them out Like they were A version of the Beatles At a point in their stardom And like huge But I thought you were Going to say like Terence Trent Darby or Usher.

45:37I know those were both big for you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so you've got that on one side. Then there was my dad who was playing more reggae, lovers rock music from Beres Hammond, Sanchez. He was in a reggae group called the Ebony Rockers. Ebony Rockers. Who you can listen to on YouTube. It's brilliant, kind of roots reggae, you know, of the sort of 70s, 80s vintage. Yeah. You know what, it's funny because I remember going through the record collection, there was a big box of records. and I find this Ebony Rocker's vinyl with a picture of the band on there and I see my dad on there and I'd be like, wow, so proud.

46:10What was his instrument? His bass guitar. Really? So I guess that's where I've got this real affinity for making sure that the bass line is right. The low end. Got to look after the low end. Oh, yeah, you need the low end. All day. And everything he spoke about, you know. I mean, recently they put a Muriel and Ogle Road in Southampton. Was it a Southampton group then? Southampton group to commemorate what they were speaking about, the social injustice and the racism that they were going through, that Windrush era of coming over and what they had to face and then going on protests with various marginalised groups to fight for their voice to be heard.

46:45And at the time I was so young, I didn't really know what the songs were about. I just liked the melodies. I loved the way that my dad played the bass. But then later in years down the line, when I get to understand what he was talking about, and then they got this mural right in the high street. I was so proud of him. Was he a full-time musician? So, I mean, the point at which I kind of listened to his music, I think the band had already maybe broken up at that point, but it was full-time for a moment. The dad I know was a carpenter that would have his son come with him. So his music was sort of behind him by the time you were on the scene?

47:16Yeah. He was showing me how to make speaker boxes together. I read about that. Did I read that he's from Grenada originally? Yeah, that's correct. Which is a tiny South Caribbean island. Do you know the population? It's not that many. I looked it up. It's about 125 ,000, I think. Wow. Which is about half of the population of Southampton. And a lot of great music comes from there. He would have come over, what, looking for a better life in the UK kind of thing? Yeah, he came over as a kid with his mum. Firstly, he tells me he's always very proud of the opportunity that he was given to be in this country.

47:50He's very vocal about that, that he had an opportunity to come over in that windrush, on that boat with his mother, and actually be given asylum here to be able to live their life, to be given a UK passport. I love that. But then he also said that he had to go through a lot of racism and social injustice that was going on at the time, and he used music to voice that. That's what made me really proud that he was able to be seen all these years later in Southampton. Yeah, he's being honoured, and that counts for a lot. It's amazing. Your mum is white. Did I read that she's Jewish? Yeah, she's Jewish.

48:23My mother's mother is a Reforms Jew with an Orthodox husband. So down the lineage of my mother's side, she's Jewish. So do you think of yourself as Jewish? Deeply and nearly in my heart. The Jewish tradition and the way in which the community that I'm now in is beautiful because it kind of reinforces the wonderful spirit of Judaism that runs through me. But I would say that I'm very open to pulling in different religions and philosophies to bring them all to the centre. I see the essence of everything. And I do love the way in which I've been able to be raised in that sense. On my grandmother's side, she'd be talking about the Holocaust and what impact it was for her coming over and deeply felt that pain.

49:06My dad would talk about black slavery and I could feel that deeply inside of me. and then for me to be a mixed race kid growing up in the UK with that lineage, it makes me smile that I can own that and I can have empathy and walk and speak on these things, not from an abstract way. I can feel it. I have family members who were in concentration camps. I have family members who were slaves. Yeah. When I read that you were Jewish, I was like, oh, of course, Craig. David, like Larry David. David could be a Jewish name, but then actually David's your dad's name. Your mum's name is Loftus. Yeah, that actually goes through, I don't know if you remember the Aqrus watches when they used to say at the first stroke of the time sponsored by Aqrus will be when you used to call up to find out the time.

49:50So Loftus's were known through the watch company. My grandfather had a chemist and down in Golders Green. So that when we speak, there's deep conversations that I had that now it's time to use this voice, not just through the songs and the words you say in a song. Because I feel that's a form of healing big time. but then to also sit down with you and and to have this conversation with you is really important because otherwise it's too much on the surface and I need to deep dive and allow this voice to come out which a couple years back I don't think I would have been ready to have these kind of conversations which touch upon all these different subjects so I'm just speaking my truth and if it brings people together then job well done hence the book hence these conversations it's all the same thing you know time is streaming by so before we wrap up I would like to talk to you about relationships a bit and obviously arguably your most famous song seven days is about a relationship that lasts as far as we know from the lyrics for seven days and about making love on consecutive days and then chilling on sunday if i have that correctly it was a seven year relationship that one louis it was a seven year each day was a year it's like in the bible when they talk about days it's all metaphorical but i'm also aware from digging into your story that you haven't had many long-term relationships and I have an instinct and you'll correct me if I'm wrong that you've enjoyed maybe over the years something of a playboy lifestyle at least you've enjoyed the affection of people that you've met through the course of doing your work a glamorous lifestyle that you lead I guess the first question is to what extent that experience of if it's correct of fleeting relationships is satisfying and to what extent were you leading a kind of glamorous playboy young free and single existence I mean to be honest Louis like when let's take it all the way back again you're the shoulder to cry on for the girl that I was interested in who wants to be with the captain of the school football team but she'd have deep conversation with you pour her heart out to you but she didn't really want to necessarily be with me stuck in the friend zone I believe they call that stuck in the friend zone but it seemed as if it didn't matter if you didn't have that deeper relationship and conversation as long as you looked a certain way that flipped to then it's on on its head when I started to have these songs that were starting to be successful around the world and there was a lot of interest and you looked amazing right and you were styled exquisitely I wouldn't say I looked amazing but I think the stylist did a good job of me put me in some nice threads yeah I've got to say that I was then now experiencing the other side of the coin I was like wow this is amazing this is like I'm now being seen that was really the the feeling having not been seen then having your heart broken it only lasted for like I think it was a couple weeks but it was my heart I really was like wow this girl I was so into I felt it viscerally in my heart something had fragmented off and then that became something that then became a defense mechanism for the rest of, well, very much up until this point.

52:49Keep arm's length. Don't let anyone make you feel that pain in your heart anymore. And I feel sad that there were some wonderful women who really were trying to break through that. And all I can say when I talk about it, I apologize for anyone who was really trying to get through because they didn't know what it was really stemming from. Why was I slightly at arm's length? Why would I never really commit? I've heard you talk about this before. I guess to have a series of short-term or even just one night stand relationships in your 20s 30s I don't want to pathologize that for some people that's what a fun and fulfilling romantic life looks like right for others not so much I guess I'm curious if someone's never really done that I always feel like well it's one thing to bring someone home and have a bit of fun but then how do you prevent that from becoming a relationship because you're having to sort of stop these things from becoming something and whether that feels awkward or the emotional energy that that requires, whether that was a drain on you?

53:49You know what? You absolutely nailed it in terms of the energy and there is no natural ending. It's like once you have an energetic connection with somebody, be it even just a one night stand, as much as people would like to think that that's just it. No, no, no, no. All of the energy and things that are going on within someone and you have an interaction with someone, unless you are both on a level, you're going to spill over into both. And that can then go into many different traumas. It could be like that rejection that happened years ago for me, which ends up being my defense mechanism. For someone else, it could be that someone left them before and now you're doing the same thing again.

54:29So how would you handle that? Did you ghost the women or did you sort of say, look, that was fun, hope to see you around sometime? You know what I mean? Like, how would you basically keep the barriers up? Do you know what? it was the other way around. The way I was setting up things was like, look, the way we're talking right now, I'd love to meet up. It's fine. I'm not really ready to commit. That would be the mechanism in effect. So you made the terms clear from the outset. But that's all nonsense too. And I learned that as well, because you can set as much as you want. You can say whatever you want to say.

55:01You say, we're just having fun. I'm exploring options right now. And if that's reciprocated, then you feel like there's some sort of an agreement. It's not. There's no agreement. I mean, that's just empty words. And I realised that me not having healed my own issues was never really having me in a position to be open to someone else. So therefore, I realised that I had to pull back from all of this. And this has been like the last couple of years, really, for me. What, you stopped having any kinds of romantic and sexual encounters? Reign the whole thing back, which does mean not outwardly going on dates.

55:34The sexual interactions is going to have to just stop now. You're going to have to just cut that off. Have you been in a celibate phase? Is that what you're saying? For quite a while now. For how long? Wow, maybe a year or so. Really? So for me, that now gives me the ability to be in a... Which is funny because as much as the cool would say, oh, why the hell? You don't say that. You've got to be in the mix. No, no. I've realised that the energetic exchange between two people is so powerful that unless the two of you are on such a level like you don't need saving here you don't need to heal me I don't need to heal you we're both meeting each other at a really good healthy place that's the start of relationship and I talk about this kind of in the book about needing roots if there's no roots to the plant then the plant can't grow and for me if there was a period of time where I was like cut flowers look beautiful and I had to rein that back and say listen I need real relationship now this is not about how you're looking if you're looking beautiful if you're looking forget all the aesthetics for a moment if we can't deep dive if I can't have a conversation like we're having today and at the same time laugh like crazy with you and see the beauty from within you then we're just going to be doing this same game that we've been playing I've been playing from day one so I don't want that anymore does that mean do you look back at the last 20 years because it's taken you like the best part of 20 years to get here it sounds like but does that mean you have regrets when you look back at the string of sexual encounters or relationships characterize them however you like Like, how do you feel about all of that?

57:08That's why I said I felt sad about the way that there were some relationships. And I say some, it wasn't many relationships, but there were some relationships that really, I knew how deeply we were trying to break down that same defence mechanism that I had of, I don't want to get too close because that feeling of when my heart got broken before is something I never want to experience again. And yet what I now know to be true is that you can only really have real relationship and real love if you're willing to have your heart open as expansively as you did the first time. If you're open enough for it to be broken, that's where you're going to have an opportunity of having real relationships.

57:46But there is such a thing as having fun too, right? Yeah, there's having fun, but I've also realised that the having fun, which I'd experienced for many years, wasn't conducive to the feeling and the deep yelling that I had. I feel like, because we're on two sides of the fence here. I like I've had so few girlfriends. I'm not going to get too specific. I've never really done that thing of casual sex. I've just never had it in me. And I don't say that as a boast. And I don't say it as a sort of embarrassing admission. It's just it is what it is. I sense that you're sort of on the other side of the spectrum.

58:19I really have a slightly different take on it, my man. Now it's like, it's fun until it starts to get people's hearts start to really connect that's when the fun starts to go out the window as much as it seems like you can have the fun I've now come to terms that what I'm looking for is to have a relationship that is fun have an amazing relationship that has amazing sex involved in it that has great deep conversation that you bring each other higher together we bring each other up we raise each other we're there for each other when things get hard but at the same time it is fun it is sexy it is all of the beautiful things that the fun part of dating would say only happens if you're doing this and you don't commit.

59:02I'm now swinging to your side of the pendulum of wanting to have a real relationship, of being like, nah. I can't believe that Craig David, who met a girl on Monday and was making love on Tuesday, is now saying he might not be making love Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, any day of the week. That's quite a shock. That's what I'm saying. Sometimes you've got to pull it back, man. Reign it back. Reign it back. 41 years old now, man. I've got like, things are different. Do you have a special someone? I don't at the moment. Other than Colin. Colin's always with me. He's always there for me. It's a beautiful thing you and Colin have got, right?

59:38He's been your manager from day one. He's like a father figure. Everyone needs a Colin. You know what? I really do believe everyone is. I say that knowing that he's listening in. Colin, you can thank me for that later. Everyone does need a Colin in their life. Only for the simple fact that he's real. Our relationship has evolved so beautifully. It's gone from very much giving me father parental advice as a young kid in an industry I knew nothing about to us becoming best friends for us to be peer to peer and being able to be where I am now. And that kind of evolution is what real relationship is.

1:00:08And I'm starting to see that that's the kind of relationship that needs to be across the board in all relationships. Yeah, it doesn't have to just working relationships across the board. The relationships have to have the same way. You can't have something wonky going over here and then something great here. It needs to be level. And if that means reducing your circle of people, I'm all in. All in. And by the way, I think I fucked up the lyric. I said you were making love on Tuesday, but you took her for a drink on Tuesday and you were making love on Wednesday. Yeah, just keep it to the Tuesday, drink things calm.

1:00:37I mean, that's nice.

1:00:50You're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast.

1:01:01Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you, you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now back to my conversation with Craig David. And you can't keep a good man down. Manager Colin Lester.

1:01:14I know you had a hard out. I really appreciate your time, Craig. Here's Colin. All right, Colin, how are you doing? I'm very well. Thank you so much for those kind words. Everyone needs a Colin. It's a title for a book, isn't it? Hey! You know, before that, my book was going to be called Once More With Feeling. But I think I might have to change it. Yeah. But who's Colin's Colin? Maybe Colin doesn't have a Colin. That's right. I haven't got a Colin. I've got a beautiful wife, so I'm thrilled. There we go. That was your cue to say, my Colin is my beautiful wife. But you got there. There we are.

1:01:49So I hope you enjoyed that. I definitely did. On its own, that extraordinary revelation that he lived at a hotel in quite a small room at Terminal 5. Not that the number of the terminal makes that big a difference. Actually, Terminal 5 is probably the nicest terminal. It's the newest one. Terminal 2, that would be really weird. Even Terminal 5, that's a bit odd to spend two years at a hotel there. Granted, he was flying back and forth. What I didn't clarify was whether when he was out of town, he kept the room. I assume he probably did, that he was not sort of checking in and checking out, that it was like, welcome back, Mr.

1:02:25David. Your room is as you left it, sir. We've left some mints on your pillow, and if you want to go upstairs and relax, we'll be up shortly to do turndown. It's a five-star hotel, people, so don't imagine he's staying in like a tiny little econo-lodge, you know what I mean, where the soap fragments are so small you could cut your hand on them. You know what I'm talking about. like little butter pats you're trying to clean yourself with. I've stayed in those places. This isn't one of those places. I've been told that Alan Partridge lived in the travel tavern, probably in Norwich, was it? That that was his thing when he was, what, in his wilderness years.

1:03:04So the idea of living at a hotel, it does sort of bespeak a kind of sense of loss of identity, loss of direction. My hotel years lie ahead of me, looking forward to them. Life must be so simple. Right. Welcome back, Mr. Thoreau. Your room says you left it, sir. Just to clear up one thing, the stalking case that we talked about, I think we covered some of this, but basically in 2022, she was given a stalking protection order banning her from contacting Craig for five years. I want to be able to walk down the street without having to look over my shoulder, Craig's impact statement said. You know, one thing that didn't come up that I meant to say was, because he draws this comparison in his book, which I thought was perceptive, was saying having been made into a puppet, a latex puppet, that was both him and not him.

1:03:58He imprisoned himself in a new incarnation, but this one sculpted from his own flesh. He makes that comparison. It's kind of amazing that in fleeing from one form of what he viewed as bullying or misrepresentation, he ended up in another self-created puppet. And if you're curious to see Craig in his most sculpted, sculpted to the point of unhealth, then those images are available on the internet. You can have a look. Extraordinary level of chiselization. Also, I was conscious listening back to it that, look, I think I said I know Lee Francis. I'm in a kind of comedy-adjacent space myself. I'm in favour of, I guess, broadly defined cheeky comedy.

1:04:43I absolutely endorse Craig's feelings. For me, I guess, I don't know how I would feel about it if it happened to me, but I'm sort of hoping that I might find out. as I speak I still don't know whether Lee's TV show in which there's a grotesque Louis Theroux latex puppet with a huge chin and I'm sorry you couldn't see that I'm hoping we can link to that in some way I'm not sure I have to get permission so it's got huge ears which is utterly bizarre because as you will know my ears are petite little seashells no I've got big ears too but I think the ears are even bigger big flapping Dumbo like things but I don't know whether it's been picked up.

1:05:22I think it was a pilot, maybe for ITV or ITV2, and whether or not it will ever be on TV, I don't know. We're on tenterhooks. I mean, I think I said this as well, which is this feeling that in the UK, certainly in England, there's a sense that you don't want your stars to come with too much star attitude and almost there's a level of grooming which is viewed, certainly in men, is viewed with a kind of suspicion. And I think to some extent, Craig came in for flack because he was almost seen as just a little bit too slick, right? Maybe people felt, some people felt he needed taking down a peg. It was striking that when I showed Craig the Lee Francis Louis Theroux latex character, he was really troubled by it.

1:06:05And I think not on his own account, he was feeling compassionate towards me. And basically, Craig seems like a compassionate, I think he is a compassionate, thoughtful, and kind person. And a consummate professional, as if that needed saying, someone who now, 20 years on, has found his way back to a kind of elder statesman status, just when British rap, grime, R &B is at the forefront of international flowering, right? So many amazing artists who are getting attention all over the world, and that they look up to Craig. Craig is seen as a forerunner, someone who paved the way. And he's a great artist, and he's got a great voice.

1:06:45and I think I said that so I don't need to keep banging on about it What's your flavour? Tell me now what's your flavour? What are the other ones? I'm walking away I used to love that track If you're feeling a little bit tearful maybe underslept or going through a heartbreak that song is like a love dart to a tender place From the troubles in my life I'm walking away Oh, to find a better day Okay, credits This podcast was produced by Paul Kobrak and Maan Al-Yaziri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer is Aaron Fellows. The music in this series is by Miguel de Oliveira.

1:07:31If you enjoyed it, then feel free to re-rewind. There you go. It's a Mindhouse production exclusively for Spotify. You don't really have to rewind because it doesn't work like that anymore, does it? You just click. You just click. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen.

1:08:15This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business. Because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S.