S1 EP4: Tan France on life in the US, the phenomenon of Queer Eye and dealing with racism

27:05So yeah, that first year, year and a half was pretty brutal on my mental health. And then I decided to turn off my comments on Instagram and stop reading what people had to say about me and just do the damn job. And then I started being more vocal about it on my social saying, I've never said I'm going to represent you all. I'm going to do the best I can to represent all the communities I can, but I can only do it my way. And if you don't agree with it, so be it. You go and show what a good version of a Muslim, a Pakistani, a queer person is. feel free to do so but I want to show you my version and so since then I've kind of have a it's not a fuck it mentality but it's a I'm doing my best fuck off mentality can you generalize about what was coming in like was there a particular slant to the comments yeah most of the comments were you're not muslim you're not one of us because you're gay or queer it's completely against the religion you shouldn't be promoting the fact that you're one of us or even pakistani initially when the show first came out i was still donny tan is what i call myself the other version of me i'm from doncaster so we refer to it as donny and donny tan as i said was a little more aggressive and so i would reply to some of those people saying i know for a fact that you are not the perfect muslim you think you are i'm sure that you do things that are against religion drink had sex outside of marriage had sex before marriage you've looked at a woman you've fantasized about a woman, all those things.

28:33I know that you've done that. So who the fuck are you to judge me? Have you ever, I don't want to be, um, get really heavy, but I'll ask it. Have you ever felt physically unsafe? Oh gosh. So many times, so many times within that first year in particular, but again, it may have happened since I just don't know. Cause we don't have DMs open where people said you should die. We're going to kill you. All those shitty things. You've got speaking engagement. We know we're going to kill you. We know you're releasing your book you're going to Barnes and Noble if you don't kill yourself will kill you that bullshit

29:06wow but that must be pretty frightening you know the mean comments were more frightening than those I don't know why I spoke to my husband about it a lot I always thought they're not going to travel to attack me and I don't know where that confidence came from or that stupidity came from I just thought I'll be fine really they always provide security wherever I go publicly so I just thought well they'll find a way to protect me. Well, good for you for not feeling intimidated. No, and even on the street, if somebody, there's only been a couple of situations where it's very clear that somebody's really angry at me.

29:41I box, just as a side note. I box and I've been boxing for a long time. I fight pretty well. You're in great shape, by the way. I saw your recent post where you posted a selfie with a, what's the term? Yes, a scan on my... A scan on your tummy. and mainly what I was looking at was how toned you were looking. Thanks, thanks. I work out a lot and I box a lot and so I feel relatively safe. I will say that growing up in the community I did, there was so much violence. I learned to be really violent and it's not a side of me that I ever talk about because it's not cutesy Netflix, it's not cutesy Queer Eye and I'm always positioned to be the classy one.

30:21It's not on brand. It's not on brand at all. It's not on brand to hear about the bare-knuckle years of town France, the most feared man in Doncaster. Yeah. Don't let him catch you in a blind alley. See, here's the thing. I was never, ever a violent person. And I never wanted to be. But circumstances forced me to just learn to protect myself. And so I think when you go through all those years of just being ready to fight back, at this age now, it doesn't really scare me walking down the street. I think if somebody hits me, I'll hit them back. wow I love that you need like a spin-off show where you're like teaching people to fight

31:23This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah, well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales.

32:05The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis L-O-U-I-S That's Shopify.com slash Louis L-O-U-I-S

32:29Hi, I'm Louis Theroux and you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast and now back to my conversation with Tan France You have how many followers on Instagram? I'm so lame to say but I'm 2 ,000 off 4 million 2 ,000 off 4 million Come on, people. Let's get 10. We just need two. It's like a telethon. We just need 2 ,000 more people. And when you started, I was reading this just today, when you started, you know, when you went for the audition to be in Queer Eye, you had how many? About 200-ish. Amazing. And it was actually the first week that I got my first million. Really? The first week that it went out on air?

33:16Yeah. I got 900 and something thousand followers. Amazing. That first week. It was insane. Life changed so much within a day. I've been in TV for, what, coming up on 25 years. I've got to think about 700, 800 ,000. That's actually, I'm not just saying this. Don't patronise me. No, it's great. Please don't patronise me. Because, let me say this. Tan France, I don't need you patronising me. It's great because you're not on Netflix, right? I was on Bravo, man. And I built that. I nearly swore. I built that network. Bravo. I paid for the way. I built that fucking network. They were nothing. No, here's the thing.

33:56They dragged me down. The Millions of Followers is a Netflix effect. And it's very well known here in LA in particular. I'm not just saying this because I drank the Kool-Aid. I love them. They're so good to me. And I will say, look, there are many shows that launch that aren't very successful. And maybe they're not as supportive. Maybe they don't champion their success. But when you work really hard, they give me so many opportunities. Of course they do. I can't believe how good they are with me. Because you're bringing home the bacon. Well, not bacon. Choose a different meaning. The turkey bacon.

34:28I'm bringing home the turkey bacon. The turkey bacon. Yeah, the facon, if you're a vegetarian. But I think people would be curious to know just how you came to be on Queer Eye, having had no background in show business. how do you suddenly become a presenter host on one of the biggest shows on tv with no experience with zero relevant experience that's that wonderful setup um i uh so here's the thing a lot of people think i just came out of the blue and it was handed to me on the plate and it really was that is exactly what happened i'm very lucky so just to backtrack a little i had businesses.

35:09I was a designer. I had four businesses. Three of them were my main businesses that one of them I purchased within the last few months of my company. And my businesses did exceptionally well. And so I sold them all to retire. And so business had done well and we wanted to retire and have children and just travel the world with the kids. My goal was to always retire by 40. My dad wanted to retire by 50. He passed away when he was in his 40s. And so when I was a kid, I thought, yeah. And so very young, I thought I want to do all I can try and retire by 40. So that God forbid, if I suffer the same destiny as my father, hopefully I'll have a few years where I can actually enjoy my life and not work for somebody else.

35:53And somehow miraculously, we got to a point where we could retire. And a friend of my friend is a manager in Hollywood. And one of my businesses that I had was with a blogger, an influencer. And he had said, is there any chance we could do a show about your business partner? She's got three sisters. They're all influencers. It could be like a Utah Kardashians. Right. What was the family called? The family's called the... The Scholars. The Scholars. And they're famous within Utah. Is that right? Actually, they're famous in the US in the fashion scene. So you'll see them at front row fashion shows.

36:26So these girls were doing well. They had million dollar businesses also. They lived a life that could seem very sexy to the audience. And they were all in their 20s. They all had kids. They're a very interesting family. But they're all white. And a white show in 2017 was not going to sell. They needed somebody of color. And so he said, look, can you help me reach these girls? And would you be willing to just be in the background, be an extra? We just can't have a full white show. And you represent so many marginalized groups. We can have a one and done. I was like, sure, let me arrange a meeting with them.

36:59We can have a one and done. What is a one and done? So instead of having to find a gay person to be on the show, a person of colour, a this or that. Oh, you ticked all the boxes. Yeah, and I'm not deluded. I know that that's possibly one of the reasons why I got the job. We can get back into it in a moment, but that's one of the reasons I got the job. I ticked so many boxes. So I arranged to go to these network meetings with these girls and this manager. And one of those meetings was your old nemesis, Bravo. And whilst I was at Bravo, we were all sat around this table with a bunch of their executives.

37:30they'd seen a little sizzle reel that was created and they said look girls you're all lovely but a show like this will destroy your family you're already close maybe this isn't a thing you should be doing and quite honestly you're too vanilla for tv and then she turned to me this executive and said you on the other hand i could put on tv tomorrow and i was like oh i had barely said a word i was i thought i was really quiet but apparently i wasn't i don't know how to be i said oh that's very nice but i have no interest in being on television and so she said can we not convince you to stay any longer to talk more.

38:00I was like, absolutely not. I'm not interested. Thank you. Anyway, so a few weeks later, I retired fully, got a call from this guy saying, after your meeting at Bravo, they put a word in at Netflix and suggested that they cast you on Queer Eye as the fashion guide. They've been looking for this person for six months. They've auditioned two and a half thousand people. They've all been no's. You might actually be it. I had a call with Netflix a couple of weeks later even though I told this manager guy no thank you I'm not interested he kept calling and said just take a call with them just take a call so I did it went really well they invited me to a chemistry test in LA it went very well because I didn't care I didn't want the job I just thought I'm gonna go I'm gonna make some gay friends and that's it so there was no pressure for me so I was saying everything I would say to anyone and I was so myself that I did something really strange during, if you don't mind, I'm going to really give you the full story about what happened.

38:58So the chemistry is the first night is a cocktail party. They see how you interact with everybody. And then there was this section that lasted half a day where you all are all called up in turn and you go from station to station as if it were speed dating and you spend seven minutes at each table. And each table, there were four tables, had a Netflix executive, a production company executive, and some other random person, whoever they might be. And there's a fishbowl on each table and you pull out a question. I was watching other people do it and I thought, oh, that's so not me. I wouldn't do that.

39:30I wouldn't answer those questions. And so when it was my turn, they said, okay, will you take a question from the fishbowl? And I said, no, thank you. And they said, what do you mean? No, thank you. I said, if you want to talk, talk, you want to get to know me, get to know me. And I said, I'm an open book. I'll discuss whatever you want. I said, but I've heard some of the questions. You don't need to know when I last flew a kite. I have no interest in telling you about my kite experience. I said, I heard you got a divorce recently. Do you want to tell me about that? Was it you who asked for the divorce or your partner and how are you feeling about it?

39:58And this was the creator of the show. And he said, wait, are you serious? And I said, yeah, I'm deadly serious. Are you the reason you're getting a divorce or was it your partner? And he was like, I can't believe that you're not willing to take a question, but I'll answer your question. and then by the time I got to the fourth one they had heard that I was the guy who refused to take questions from the bowl because I wanted to talk about whatever I wanted to talk about that was clearly the right move because by the end of that they said let's put you in a room and start rotating other dudes and see who you get along with that's amazing so you were the right person in the right place at the right time but it's easy to imagine a world where maybe none of this would have happened and you would be what, sort of just retired, living in Salt Lake?

40:43Yeah, I would be a stay-at-home parent. It was my dream. It's still potentially my dream. In the next few years, I would love to cut back a heck of a lot and just do off-camera work and produce so I can be at home and help raise my children. Wow. So let's talk about Doncaster. And in passing, I'd like to reflect on, for those who don't know, the fact of you living in Salt Lake City, it's thousands of miles from Doncaster. It's a city in Utah in the west of the states. It's known as the sort of headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter-day Saints, a.k.a. Mormonism. I think it's sort of 90 % white, very much kind of corn-fed, beautiful in the Rockies in the distance.

41:24Gorgeous. But quite conservative, I think, right? Very, yeah, very conservative. Both senators are Republicans, are they? They are. Nevertheless, I'm told that Salt Lake is quite gay-friendly. It is. It's the most liberal part of Utah. and you really can't swing a cat without hitting 10 gays. The gays are everywhere. We have the largest gay community per capita in America. How do you explain that? I have no idea other than the Mormons, they separate the sexes a lot. And so I think that they spend a lot of time with other managers, realise that they've developed an appetite for the same sex. Right.

42:00Are there, this is going to, I'm going to ask a question from a place of ignorance. in terms of the LDS do they tend to be gay friendly like is it a is it a kind of yes like the teachings in the book of mormon and and whatnot it's not terribly so bigoted and retrograde no i mean it depends on what part of utah you're living in there's a place called utah county where i know that people are as welcoming with the queer community however here in salt lake it is really quite liberal actually the best way i can articulate this is by saying all of my friends in Utah are LDS. They're all active Mormons.

42:34They go to church, they go to temple, they believe in the covenants of the church, but there are certain aspects that they believe just aren't right and that those decisions were made by men. But the church has come out multiple times, and I'm not trying to defend the church, but they've come out multiple times saying, we understand that queer is a thing, that there are gay people. We just can't have gay marriage in the church, but we should treat them kindly. We should not be disrespectful. And don't get me wrong, that flip-flops every now and then. But on the whole, my experience with the Mormon church has been nothing but pleasant.

43:08And Rob, your husband, whose parents were ranchers in Wyoming, and I think he was raised LDS, Mormon. Does he still consider himself Mormon? No. He believes in God, but he doesn't. No, he's not an atheist. He definitely believes in God, but I don't think he believes in that way of going about it. Meanwhile, over in Doncaster, which is a world away in various senses, where you grew up I mean, what's striking, having seen your work and read your book and read up on your story Is how dreadful a lot of your experiences were growing up That you were exposed to some of the worst kinds of racism I was really struck watching a program you made called Beauty and the Bleach Which was about colorism And there's a sequence in which you were about to go home go back to Doncaster to explore some of your childhood experiences.

43:55And as it plays out on screen, you just have a strong urge not to go back. Like you basically don't go back. That caused some issues with the BBC, but yes. The plan was, as part of the documentary, I would go back and revisit my experiences in Doncaster. However, and this is an arrogant comment, but it is who I am at this point, I don't get told what to do. I'll do what I want to do. And even if I get fired from Netflix, Like, I've got my money. I can make my own choices. I'm not beholden to anyone. I thought I could do it. I couldn't. I wasn't ready. And I didn't want to feel like shit. And so I'd rather piss off a lot of people and say no.

44:33Yeah. It made me very sad. And I had to explore my own sort of preconceptions a bit when watching it. Because a part of me wanted to feel okay about Doncaster, right? And, you know, England. You know, I hated to reflect on how awful it must have been for you. You know, I will say that's the hard part of talking about life in the UK. The Brits don't want to hear it. They're not ready to hear it. It makes them really, really angry. And I think that speaks volumes, Louis. I think that it's a real issue we have back home. And it's the reason why I'm so much happier here. And that comment also gets a lot of negative reaction, a huge negative reaction saying, we've seen the racism on the news in America.

45:22You're telling us that it's worse than the UK. For me personally, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. For the black community here in America, racism is disgusting and it has affected their lives so greatly. And in England, that might be the case also, but I don't know the black experience in the UK. I know the Asian experience and I've got a lot of family and we all experienced the same thing. My family continues to experience the same thing. I left the UK 15 years ago. And I'm not saying that I hate the UK. I love the UK. And I love the majority of the people in the UK are amazing and have been so good and compassionate and aren't racist at all.

45:57But as we know, it's not those lovely people that are speaking up. It's the people who hate you who are going to tell you they hate you on the street. And so incredibly frustrated a lot of the time with, especially the press, not willing to believe or just believing that me and any other entertainer who speaks out about it in the US, who's come from the UK, is an arrogant douche who's left the UK and now thinks we're better than them. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that we've now left the UK so we feel galvanized and powerful enough to be able to say, we don't expect anything from you, so we can now speak about how bad the damage was that was done to us.

46:34I hear all of that. And I think it may be confusing to some people because in the US, We have a former President Trump who basically spoke in nakedly, brazenly Islamophobic terms, whereas here in the UK we clearly have people of colour, prime minister, ministers on the front bench, people in positions of influence and power who come from South Asian and Muslim backgrounds. Nevertheless, there's no denying that racism is routine. And I'm curious to explore with you aspects of that. I mean, you talk about aged, I think, six, that you were actually physically beaten up by men on the way to school.

47:09And that was, I mean... The first occasion. And you were talking earlier about basically physically needing to defend yourself on other occasions. Yeah. Can you talk about that at all? Yeah. So my dad, and I won't speak ill of my dad, I love my dad, but my dad was really angry, obviously at what had happened but angry that i didn't fight back and i thought i found that it's just very odd like you when you were so young i mean how would you fight back i mean i've got an eight-year-old who walked him to school anyway your your dad had his reasons i guess i think he was angry at himself actually i know he was angry himself because he believed that he could have put us in a better position for us to be able to protect ourselves and he did do that with my older brothers.

47:56They were able to protect themselves. My eldest brother was incredibly strong and always won the fight. And so my dad possibly was right to expect that of me also. I just wasn't prepared. You were six though. You just said you were six, right? Yeah. However, my other siblings could take care of themselves at a young age, really young age, even against older kids, they would find a weapon and make it home. And I didn't. And so it fucked me up for a really long time. There were so many weird feelings. But over the years, I learned my dad is going to continue to be really angry at me if I don't figure this shit out.

48:32And so I better start hitting back. Even if I'm in pain, I hit back. Eventually, you just learn to win the fight. By the time I got to like 15, 16, I learned this isn't stopping it. It's not helping the situation. I still get hurt. And so I started to use humour and my personality to try and get out of the situation, to try and make them like me within those 10 seconds to avoid a beating. But yeah. Are these from strangers, like randoms on the streets? Complete strangers. Yeah, complete strangers. Racist white people. Yeah, racist white people. Teenagers. Yeah, kids would say shit, but that didn't bother me.

49:10It was when it came from the older people. It was usually grown-ups. It was almost always grown-ups, especially when I hit Manchester. And I moved to Manchester when I was 17. They were in their 20s and 30s. And you were saying that from speaking to your family, your strong impression is that things haven't got much better. Is that right? I know this to be the case. I was in England two years ago, and I was on the bus from my mum's house into town because I thought it would be a cute cultural experience because I hadn't been on the bus since I was like 17. and somebody called me a packie on the bus.

49:46I stupidly thought that my success would negate all of that shit for me. But if somebody doesn't know who I am, I'm still just a random packie on the street. Describe, if you can, the feeling of that inability or that unwillingness to go back, because it's obviously visceral and strong. And can you describe it? it's just yeah no it's the best way to describe it is that you start to feel really nauseated have you ever been kicked in the balls yes of course yeah you know that feeling where it's a strange feeling because it's not not a normal pain it's like it's it's a very weird different kind of a pain yeah like you say it's so vaguely nauseous yeah that's the feeling i feel and i started in the car to feel lightheaded my body had never responded this way to anything it feels like almost an emotional shutdown.

50:40Maybe you could have forced yourself to go back, but some part of you felt like it wasn't worth it. I absolutely could have gone. Like I could have forced myself. I could have just said, look, you drive. I'm just going to get rid of my dizziness. I'm going to sit in the passenger seat and you take me. But during that drive, I just thought, what am I doing this? Who am I doing this for? Who's it going to benefit? It's not benefiting me. Who am I really doing this for a TV network? Fuck off. And that's not to denigrate the BBC. Fuck off, BBC. Fucking BBC. Can we also say fuck you to ITV? Because they drive me insane.

51:13Where are all the brown people on ITV, ITV? Oh, really? You think ITV's bad with representation? Fucking hell, yeah. Sorry. I don't know if somebody warned you about my terrible language beforehand. I started it. I said fuck bravo. But yeah, I get pissed off that they just won't put any Asians on primetime. are we really not entertaining in any way enough to have a primetime show i don't think any british network has an asian on primetime tv and i don't know what the fuck is wrong that can't be true can it oh can you think of one well look i was thinking about this on the way here because i know one of your things was i saw no one like me on tv growing up and by the way just to get this out there south asians are the largest uh minority group in the uk minority group in the uk about 9%.

52:00Also, we are 81.7 % white, 4 % black. And South Asians are the most underrepresented on UK TV, according to a report. And according to Tan France also, yes. And according to Tan France, leading expert. And also, Islamophobia is the most common form of religious hate crime in the UK. 42 % of all religious hate attacks were against Muslims. Does not surprise me at all. Okay, so let's get that out there so yes so that being the case though no no wait louis let me ask you like can you think why was i talking too much can you think no okay but i really want to throw this back to you can you think of a south asian on primetime tv right now i'm just thinking about sanjeev mascar and mirasayal i mean meet the kumars was obviously a big show i mean i'm not saying like oh no we've done this and then people like we've done it now we don't need to do that again yes right now we have asian news readers don't we naga munchetti and i'm just going to say this and please know that i say this with all respect oh fuck off okay thank you that felt very respectful yes thank you oh fuck off you can't give me weather girls and newsreaders no i'm talking about entertainers oh it's too much reality flying around um i know that there's one i think he's Sri Lankan he's a comedian oh he wears glasses Romesh Ranganathan oh thank you Romesh Ranganathan so I haven't lived in the UK for a very long time and somebody did tell me that he's huge he's on he's on half the shows on television which is I'm so happy but one does not represent the amount of people we have no you're right but again all of this within the last four or five years when I was in the UK there really wasn't yes there was Meet the Kumars yes there was goodness gracious me but other than that like you guys get 99.9 percent we can't say that our point something percent every five years is representation we can't louis no no i agree i'm agree i'm totally down with that it's striking reading up on you that it seems as though you didn't feel any dissonance to do with knowing that you were gay and being in a relatively conservative Muslim family.

54:13There was no sense of, I need to stifle this. What's wrong with me? You were just confident and happy in who you were. I really wish I had a better memory. The weed is Friday, I guess. But there are so many fond memories I have thinking about my siblings planning to get married and me always thinking, well, when I get married, I'm going to marry a man. I was just so matter of fact about it. I don't remember a time when I really struggled with it. And even if my family didn't accept it, I thought, well, then I'll run away. all I can put it down to is being incredibly selfish I just thought I will make myself happy did you formulate that as a thought like if my family can't handle it then I'll just go somewhere else where they can handle it yeah I mean I planned on running away to America since I was probably 12 13 um and then I first had a love affair with America I just saw it as a place where I could be myself because I'd seen gays on TV in America and I thought okay well they let them in maybe I can live a happier life there.

55:10And then when I first came to America at the age of 17, sorry, that's a lie. I was 16 when I arrived, but I turned 17 on that trip. It was before my 17th birthday. Was this your weekend in New York? Four days, that's right. Where you lied to your basically, you didn't even tell anyone. They thought you were like staying at a friend across town. They thought I was like 20 minutes away from my family home. And instead I was like the ringleader of our little pack of three. And I convinced my two friends to come to New York with me. They were also 16. So stupid. Oh gosh, my kid did that. Now I'd slap the shit out of him.

55:43You should not hit your kids, everyone. Don't hit your kids. I wanted to go to America. And so when I came, I realized that no one could tell where we were from. So there was no racism. So I thought, okay, I get to be gay and there's no racism for me. This definitely will be my home. And a couple of my family members didn't know I was gay before I moved to America. And so I really was running away. I'd like to talk just for a second about family. I think maybe you won't want to. I'm basing that because you've said there are certain things that are very private to me and family is one of them. My sense is that growing up it was quite a big thing for your family to deal with.

56:19You coming out and then marrying your husband, Rob. How long ago was that? I married him 13 and a half years ago. That was in London. You married again in America. Your family didn't come to the wedding. To be fair, they didn't know I was getting married at that time. They didn't know you were... Well, that would be perhaps because you didn't invite them. Yeah. Well, I didn't invite them and I didn't tell them. Yes. Fair. Right. So you said for 10 years they've never used his name or they had never used his name. So now it's a very strange feeling with them over Skype because now I guess there's a relationship there.

56:54They've actually seen him on FaceTime and that's a very strange process. Originally, they said you can live the life you want, but never ever bring it home. You can never talk about it. yeah that was the case from 17 until 35 ish and i accepted that i made my peace with it i always knew they would come around and maybe that's silly to assume but i i know them and we've always been really close even though there was this one massive element of my life i wasn't allowed to talk about i love them i'm really close with them and so when i told the majority to them at 17 they were also confused this is your mom your two brothers and your sister yeah so i told my sister my brother say that you're the youngest i am four children i am so i told my sister and my brother and then i told my mom a year later so i told my sister and brother and they were panicked and they said okay look you know what the religion is we understand that there is such a thing as gay but just don't act on it okay that's not going to happen unfortunately i already have.

57:56Too late. So I said, look, I understand that this is going to cause a lot of issues for our community. I'm moving to Manchester anyway. Nobody ever needs to know. And that was what they were really happy with. No one ever needs to know because you're moving away. And so it was just our secret, our family secret for a few years. I called my mom a year later when I was in Manchester and said, hey, this is what's happening. I want you to know that I'm gay and that I can't ever marry a woman. She struggled, but did better than any of them. She cried and then said, okay, let's talk about it when you get home.

58:32I went home, we talked about it. And she said, I always knew you were different. I knew you weren't like your brothers at all. So she said, I don't think I understood what it was. And I still don't understand what it is. I've never heard of two men being together, but I just knew you were very different from your brothers. And so I think she was just more confused. She wasn't angry. She wasn't angry at all. She didn't make me feel bad. No tears? It wasn't like tears? Oh yeah, of course. From every one of them. Every time I came out to any one of them, there were tears as if somebody had just passed away.

59:00Really? And tears from you as well? What were you experiencing? Yeah, of course. I was so upset. Partly the relief of being able to just get it out, but also the tears were, and recently I told some extended family members and I cried again. And this was shortly before Queer I was coming out. I cried again. Even though I feel no shame or upset in my life, I'm very comfortable and happy with my life. I think it's the expectation that everyone has or the worry that you're going to disappoint them. Or maybe even that they may have an adverse reaction. Who knows? There's so much emotion involved with coming out, even if you feel perfectly secure in yourself.

59:38And so that was the case with my mom. I knew that the life that she had planned for me wasn't going to happen. and that upset me for her. Every one of them, I think, felt comfort in the fact that I wasn't in England. And so there wasn't going to be a dramatic moment within the community where they all find out, they all realize until Queer Eye. Queer Eye changed the game completely because then everyone knew there was no hiding from it. And so that's why I've always said, I don't talk about my family. I don't want the small community in my hometown to think that they have a right to know how my family feel about it.

1:00:19That's why I've always been quite cagey about it. I feel such pressure. It's not just about me. I'm so jealous of my castmates. We've talked about this a lot and they know how I feel. I'm so jealous that they are all from families and communities where their fame and success and wealth and all this that they've achieved is a positive. But for me, it's something that I still have to kind of hide like my dirty little secret. because your family might still experience judgment from what from the british pakistani community yeah from the asian community within their community in what form do they experience that the whispers the gossip the stories that the kids will come home and tell them from school this person's mom said this about uncle tan this person's dad said this about uncle tan they don't think we should go to the same mosque anymore those kind of things like that is horrible for them and so i understand that my coming out and my freedom isn't as blissful for them as it is for me i could imagine some people might in your shoes might say um well you've obviously got a strong connection with your family right some might say like well if you don't accept you know rob in my life and you know it's me and him or you don't get me without him kind of thing, right?

1:01:37There's a world in which you would have cut ties. No, no, not at that point. There was a time when I was willing to cut ties and that's when we had implanted and we were then pregnant. At that point, I'd said, look, I've been married to my husband for a long time and I can't remember how long it was at that time. You've never met him. We don't talk about him. And if you want me to remain in your life, you will have to meet my son's father and you will have to get to know him. I'm never going to bring my son to England and pretend he doesn't have another parent for you guys to not acknowledge his other parent.

1:02:13And so they were great about it. They're like, okay, let's meet him. We're not willing to not have you in our lives. We're not willing to not have our grandson or nephew in our lives. Of course we'll meet him. Have you hosted your family in Salt Lake? At my LA home, I brought them all out not last Christmas, the Christmas before. all 19 of them came to stay. That must have been quite special. It was amazing. They were amazing with him. They're amazing with my son. It was the first time they were meeting my son. He was only five months old. And so yeah, they all got to come out and experience America for the first time.

1:02:48There was so much confusion when I moved to America from my whole family thinking, how could you leave your family? It's so unheard of for a Pakistani boy to leave his community. we come from such a traditional tight-knit community you kind of stay close by until you get married and even after that you stay close to your family so for me to leave all alone was quite jarring for everybody but I kept telling them how much I love this country and the reason why I love this country and then they came out here and now they absolutely understand why I love living in America like what is it do you think what can be improved what is the can you put any kind of a can you help me understand what that's about what makes it better yeah you know i really can i've managed to pinpoint it and this is going to sound ridiculous to you but you are a smart man so i'm hoping you can put yourself in my shoes or any asian shoes for just a second okay the joy one feels when you walk down the street and don't think even for a second somebody's going and call me a packy.

1:03:49I'm going to have to defend myself at some point from my home to my work, from my work to hanging out with friends, from hanging out to home. Somebody might physically or verbally assault me. I can't remember if it was the Daily Mailer or some other fuckwits who once said, oh, he's basically trying to suggest that they get this every day. No, I've never said we get this every day. But if you get it often enough, you will be aware of it every day. You will be on high alert every day. I've never once thought that in America. And every time I go back to England outside of London, I'm hyper aware.

1:04:24And so that's why I can pinpoint it exactly for you. That freedom, you can't put a price on.

1:04:55Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you, you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now back to my conversation with Tan France. So you've got season seven of Queer Eyes is coming out. So that's exciting. It's crazy that we have seven seasons of a show. That's actually quite uncommon these days, especially for a streamer. So yeah, I couldn't be more grateful. I mean, what's going to happen when you've fixed everyone, when everyone's been queer-eyed? I honestly can't imagine it's going to go longer than maybe one more season. I just can't. I mean, I love the fact that people keep watching it now.

1:05:30Last season was weirdly our most successful yet. But even after filming that season, I just thought, they've seen it. It's a format show that we do the same thing every episode. but yeah, I'm shocked that people are still so into it. Well, it's an utterly uncynical show, which I think is perhaps a positive note to end on. It speaks to the urge people have to see something that's celebratory and kind, right? Yeah. Isn't that nice that a show that is purely positive can be so successful? I'm the cynic, I guess. When I got the show, I thought, this is never going to work. We're just a bunch of people trying to spread positivity.

1:06:10that's never going to work. Yeah. So to know that that was possible really does give me hope. Well, congratulations on its continuing success. We didn't even get... Let me say this. Can I speak really frankly and say this? Oh, what? Like you haven't been frank? I mean, I'm just dealing... I'm dealing with the fact that... This is the most frank. I'm now like, I'm kind of an icon of gammon. Like what I heard from you is like, you're the kind of person who is like, nice to gay people to their face and then goes off and says something horrible. That's going to... Actually, you actually went a step further.

1:06:43I wasn't saying you were nice to gay people. I said you would talk to gay people. And then later on, what the fuck was that fairy saying? I legitimately say no to almost every podcast that comes in. I fucking hate a podcast. But yeah, it's different with you. I really wanted to do it. So thanks for having me. Thank you. I appreciate that, Tan. Thank you so much.

1:07:12So here I am again. I hope you enjoyed that. An extremely enjoyable chat, for me anyway. And challenging in parts. I think a lot to think about. Especially the part about me being a kind of gammon incarnate. A gammon flesh puppet. It was a shock to think that someone might imagine I'd be in any way homophobic. I like to think I telegraph a beneficent sort of 360 tolerance towards everyone. Evidently, that's not always coming across. Something to work on. He said he thought that I might be tolerably nice in person and then talk smack behind the person's back. Well, he's gone now. So here's what I really think.

1:07:56That's a joke. It is striking that Tan's experience of American culture seems to be that it is less ambiently racist than British culture, especially in the post-Trump era where Islamophobia is clearly rampant in the US and was being promoted from the highest offices of state. I do think that from living in America, it's striking how the nation's relationship with South Asian culture and the South Asian community is quite different to the UK. And there's an almost sort of innocent naivete in their relationship with the South Asian community, which is sometimes just out and out, I guess, racist, you know, in a kind of bumbling way.

1:08:38You think of The Simpsons, which for 20 years had a white actor, Hank Azaria, playing the role of Apu, the Asian storekeeper. And in fact, the whole nature of that character on The Simpsons, which was so stereotypical that even in the 90s, I remember thinking, wow, it does seem rather one dimensional and, well, I guess, offensive. And then even in the 80s, I remember seeing Fisher Stevens, a white actor, browning up to play an Asian character on Short Circuit, the movie franchise. So what do you make of that? I don't know. What am I trying to say? No one actually knows. Whether Salt Lake City genuinely is the gayest city in America, however you define that, is subject to dispute.

1:09:25according to some Gallup data from 2017, Salt Lake City is the seventh gayest. I think we're basing that on the number of gay people per capita. Boston is 4.8 % gay. Los Angeles is 4.6%. Salt Lake City is 4.7%. I am 5.3 % gay, in case you were wondering. Intriguing to note his interest in boxing as well. I'm a fan of boxing. I'm not a fan of actually boxing someone. I mean, I watch it. I don't do it, unlike Tan. He's quite fit. Not overly tall, but he is tight and lithe. He's wiry. Would he be a bantamweight? Flyweight? Featherweight? Strawweight? Anyway, I don't fancy facing him in the ring or in an alley after dark.

1:10:18Not that I imagine it would happen. Anything, I mean, I know I've wanged on a bit. Is it enough? Oh, I'll try and link to some relevant material in the show notes. Maybe a couple of bits of Tan's other output that I've enjoyed. He did an interview with Pete Davidson that I found funny. And maybe some relevant links. Just on the off chance there's anything to do with Take a Peek. You'll remember that's the gay porn film that I was in. I've been dining out on that for nigh on 30 years now. It was very hot. when the park ranger came in in his little park rangers outfit. Well, it's not for me to say.

1:10:56We filmed it under the title Snowbound. It got three and a half out of five on the Peter meter. That's an industry term. Apparently it's on YouTube. Maybe we can link to that. We'll try not to break the internet. OK, moving on.

1:11:13Right, time for credits. This episode was produced by Millie Chu, Paul Cobrak and Ma 'an Al-Yaziri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series is by Miguel de Oliveira.

1:11:33This is a Mindhouse production exclusively for Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah, well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever.

1:12:16It's there to support you every step of the way from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis l-o-u-i-s that's shopify.com slash louis l-o-u-i-s