S1 EP6: Jennette McCurdy discusses child stardom and her memoir 'I'm Glad My Mom Died'

24:09Yeah, for sure. She was like a little firecracker, really intense, really passionate. 4 '11", tiny, tiny, always doing Jane Fonda workout videos. Funny without knowing she was funny. Like she could say abusive things in a funny way. It was something about her rhythm and her cadence and her unawareness. And she could be really, really charming. She could have a great energy in any direction and could really kind of turn the energy of a room. And she was driven and channeled the right way. That's obviously a good quality. Unfortunately, she was driven in terms of her ambitions for you in Hollywood and pursuing child stardom.

24:47So basically, I mean, where do you start? I mean, among the many things that she did, one was when you're quite young, she says, let me tell you about calorie restriction. Do you want to talk about that for a second? Yeah. Yeah. So I started acting when I was six. By 11, I had kind of started to book some roles, and it seemed like there was maybe a decent chance of a future career in acting. And something that was really common in the roles that I booked was that I played younger than my age. I looked younger than my age. I was small for my age. I played younger roles. And my mom was really clear that that was really helpful because casting directors like to cast older kids to play younger roles.

25:26They can work longer hours. They're better behaved. Plenty of reasons they want to cast older kids. So one morning I felt a lump in my flat chest and I went to my mom who'd already been diagnosed with cancer when I was two years old. She had stage four metastatic ductal carcinoma and was told she had six months to live, miraculously recovered. It kind of defined our whole family. I think it's partially why the whole house revolved around her. It was like, well, we've got to keep her safe. So I always had this fear of cancer recurring for her, cancer for me, cancer for anybody was just a constant fear.

25:58She wasn't up yet. I was worried about waking her, but I thought, okay, I'm going to wake her and I'm going to tell her I have this lump. And she reached her hand out my shirt, felt the lump and said, oh, Nettie, no, you don't have cancer. You're just getting boobies. And that was truly as horrifying to me because that meant growing up. And it had always been really clear to me that my mom did not want me to grow up, not just for acting, but it also felt like her worth was tied up in me being young. With me being young, she had something to do. She felt good. Me growing up kind of felt like her loss of purpose.

26:34And so I said, well, is there anything I can do to stop the boobs from coming in? And she said, well, there's this thing called calorie restriction. And from that day on, we kind of partnered up to count our calories. She weighed me daily and she measured my thighs with a measuring tape. She taught me what diuretics were and we read calorie books together and constantly were just in this kind of as partners in crime. And it felt amazing. I'm aware now of how warped it is, but at the time it really felt like, you know, in the parent trap when the girls are like doing hand drives and dancing together, I felt like, oh my goodness, mom and me are in this thing together.

27:13And she also told me it was a secret, we shouldn't tell anyone. And I thought that was great because we've got kind of this secret code language. Nobody else knows what we're doing. We can kind of wink and nod to each other and know that we're in this together and nobody else is a part of this. So it felt amazing at the time, but it did lead to a really arduous relationship with food. How old were you when this happened? The initial calorie restriction conversation? I was 11. And then the doctor's a little worried about your weight and then a mum maybe at school says, you overhear a mum, is that right?

27:39Yeah, I overheard a mum at my dance studio say that she thought I might have anorexia. It was the first time I heard the word and she had said some other girl in the dance class had it and that her mum was getting help from like a good doctor and if my mum wanted to get help, she'd get the name And my mom just kind of brushed off the conversation, just sped off to get home and we just kept going with it. And my mom really was cautious of any of those comments getting to me, I think. So strange. Do you think your mom had any insight? Presumably not. It seems baffling that she wouldn't have realized that that might be damaging.

28:12Or she was so lost in her own ambition for you, but also her own eating disorder. Because I think she had an eating disorder too. Yeah, she had had eating disorders for years. years. And she would always tell me about this story of her parents saying, oh, Roland, that's her brother. Roland can eat anything and it just turns to muscle, but poor Debbie, anything she eats turns to fat. And she said that happened when she was like 14. And then she just started eating one donut a day, but she would divide it into four segments and she'd have three of the four segments. So I started kind of piecing together, oh, some of this seems like some of what we're doing, except we would never have donuts, but it just, I could sense some overlap.

28:48But the idea that like, oh, this is abuse. This is really unhealthy. Like I couldn't go anywhere near the reality of it. So I just kind of kept clinging to, oh, well, mom's doing this because it's what's best for me. It's what's best for my career. She clearly wants what's good for me. And I think a part of her believed that she wanted me to have a better life than she had. But also I don't think she ever stopped to consider what does that actually mean? What does that look like? What does my daughter actually want? I think she just assumed like her dreams must be everyone's dreams because of narcissism, I guess.

29:22I mean, I'm just guessing. I want to just in passing, get this out of the way, which is that there's a sort of almost a dark fascination with the idea of child stars going bad. It seems like when you're in America, I remember even growing up at the National Enquirer would always have some child star on the cover. It was like sad Jimmy in desperate drug spiral. And it was almost like they couldn't resist the contrast of the chipmunk faced child star and then the ravaged sort of drug addled, whoever it was. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Occasionally, I wonder whether you get a distorted idea of the outcomes of child stars because there's so much done on the idea that they all end up as burnouts and train wrecks.

30:03I think it's realistic. I think it's more common than not that they really struggle in their adult years. I would guess that that's more often the case. I think it's rare that they grow up in their sort of stable, you know, functioning. Ron Howard. Ron Howard is Exhibit A and a guy who's had a brilliant career. Who did he play on Happy Days? Opie, I think. Was he Opie? No, no, no. Rishi. He was Opie on Andy Griffith's show. Was he? So he really was a child star. Yeah, he was like probably seven, eight on Andy Griffith's show. which to people in the UK probably means next to nothing, but that was a legendary, what was it, from the 50s?

30:40And it had, what was the main guy who played Andy? Was he called Andy Griffiths? Was that his real name? I think that was his real name. But it was a kind of a sitcom about a small town sheriff, I think. Yeah. Was it? A mayor? How do you know? I don't know. I went to that town once. I made a show about independent wrestling. And I went to, it's a real town that it's filmed in and based in. Anyway, we're getting off track Wait, wait, wait, what did you think about independent wrestling? How did you wind up there? It was an episode of a show I did called Weird Weekends and there was an independent wrestling federation called AIWF and it was all filmed in this town, whether it was North Carolina or South Carolina and it was like, oh, that's a famous town It's the real life Andy Griffith's town No kidding Where the show was, I guess, filmed and set Wow And the point we were getting to was that Ron Howard now is a famous, much garlanded film director who seems to be extremely, not just successful, but happy and well-adjusted.

31:36Maybe the point is just that in addition to the pressure of being in the public eye, you have the idea that there's almost people willing you to fail. The vultures, I mean, I'm a journalist, so the term vultures, maybe I'll retract that. But the idea that you don't get to fail in private the way that normal people do. You know what I mean? Like if you go on a binge and drink too much and puke in a bin on the way home, if you're a normal person, you just had a bad night or maybe a good night. But if you're a former child star, you are sad Louis Theroux in drugs and drink spiral. Yeah, I think a lot of those bad girl, bad boy behaviors are just attempts at growing up.

32:16It's normal for a kid to want to drink with their friends or try smoking pot, right? I think those are normal adolescent things to do, but it's just viewed under a microscope and viewed as the unraveling. And then I also think it's really difficult to, and I certainly felt this, and this is a theme that I'm really fascinated by and want to explore more. The idea of feeling like you peaked by the time you're 20. Your 20s, I think, are the years where you are stumbling and you're trying different things. You're trying on different hats. You're going, I don't know, does this personality feel right?

32:49Does this person that I'm with feel right? Does this career feel right? and you're kind of bouncing around and you're finding yourself and you're finding your footing. And I don't think you have the luxury of that because you don't have that anonymity because you have such a planted flag of who you were already, you know, so widely recognized view of who you were. And so I think it's really difficult to have that narrative of like the best is behind me, regardless of how difficult it may have been. I think that's a really hard narrative to overcome, to confront, let alone to overcome, I think.

33:17For sure. You know, it's that idea of as well, like didn't you used to be on TV? you know I think someone once said that to me I'm still on TV by the way folks but once I don't know why the guy just he must have lost the button that had BBC2 on it the perfect version of this anecdote involves me being in a bar in the middle of the day and saying like give me a whiskey and then the bartender says didn't you used to be on TV and then I'm like nope mister you must have me confused with someone else rack me up another one and I remember thinking like wow that feels faintly painful, even though everything is going great.

33:52Like imagine if I really did feel washed up, to be imprisoned in an identity and a set of expectations that people have for you. Oh, yeah. Well, even if you feel great about not being on TV, the idea that people might feel sorry for you would be infuriating. Oh, absolutely. I remember I was maybe 23. I quit acting by 24. I did Nickelodeon until I was maybe 22. So this was in that weird, funky phase where I had yet to kind of let it go. So it was still kind of holding onto it in some weird way. But I had gotten into an Uber and the driver was like, hey, I picked up a couple days on your set before.

34:26Like I was like a grip for a couple days. What happened? We used to all say you were so talented and you were really going to go on to great things.

34:36I was like, well, you're driving Uber? Like you're not one to talk. But I just sort of sadly tried not to cry in the backseat. Did you actually say that about the Uber or not? You kept that to yourself. No, no, no. I keep a lot to myself. It's honestly, it's why I like writing. I feel like I can be most honest when I'm writing. I feel like I can actually say the things that I fucking want to say. And I do so much self-editing when I'm talking. Like, I'm sure we'll hang up here and I'll think of a million things. I wish I'd said that differently. Why did I ramble on there? That wasn't inarticulate.

35:04What was I like? And I feel like with writing, I can just get it right. Like, I can just say what I mean. I can get it right. I don't have to worry about whatever comes up later that I wish I'd said or hadn't said.

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36:37of the many examples i could give of your mum being nightmarish the one that i'm going to choose is you went on a vacation in hawaii like what was it a few days or a week yeah who was it with like a boyfriend my first boyfriend he's called joe i think in the book yes you've pretended that you're spending time with a friend a non-boyfriend i think she doesn't know you've got a boyfriend. Is that right? She does not know I have a boyfriend. She thinks I'm spending time with one of my only friends that she really approves of me kind of being around because he's gay. So there's no threat there. How does she find out that you're in Hawaii?

37:10She sees paparazzi pictures. There was a random paparazzo, I think they're called, a paparazzo taking photos of he and I. And I instantly felt panicked because I was like, oh no, I knew my mom was kind of going to see those photos. And of course she did. And then sent multiple emails, dozens of calls. She said, in fact, in the text or the email, you have caused my cancer to come back. You have to live with this fact. You gave me cancer. A part of me believed that. That's a bit much. A part of me really did believe that at the time. I felt like, oh God, they do say stress causes cancer. You know, I've caused her stress.

37:44Like I felt guilt about it. I felt really concerned that I had. My boyfriend had said, you know, of course, that's crazy. It's just her being her. That's not reality. But I did feel guilty about that. Then you would have been, what, 18, 19, or were you slightly older? Yeah, I was probably either 18 or 19 then. Had you reached a point where you could recognize that as basically abusive and emotionally wildly inappropriate? That's what mum does kind of thing. No, I wasn't quite there yet. I wanted to believe what Joe was saying about, you know, this is her being her and this is not okay. I wanted to believe that, but I couldn't yet.

38:20I was still too entrenched in the idea of her wanting what was best for me, my life being owed to her. So describe the process of realizing that actually your mom didn't necessarily want what was best for you and that maybe she was nuts. If I can put it that way. Yeah. To use the clinical term. Or if we wanted to use a different word, just that it was a complicated and not altogether healthy relationship. I like nuts. I first went to therapy when a later boyfriend of mine had discovered me making myself throw up. The anorexia had switched to binge eating disorder, which had then switched to bulimia, just kind of ping pong from all the different eating disorders.

39:00This is after she died, right? Yes, this is after she died. So I went to therapy specifically to kind of work on the eating disorder, really just because he had said that he wouldn't stick around unless I worked on it. So it was totally just motivated to stay in the relationship. So I went to this therapist. And as I was sharing anything, everything that I said, I was like giving a disclaimer about my mom. Of course, we come to the mom introducing me to calorie restriction. And I said, well, it's because she wanted me to do well. She was actually doing this for a good reason. Like everything that I said, I was trying to convince the therapist and myself that it was of a pure motive.

39:35Eventually, a couple sessions in, she just goes, this is abuse. There's no other way of putting it. Like there's no way around it. This is abuse. And I just need you to know that so we can work on it properly. Until you accept that, we can't really get into this properly. So I quit that therapist. I wanted nothing to do with the idea that my mom was abusive. Couldn't go anywhere near it. I just absolutely couldn't face it at the time. And then over the next year and a half, it was a series of unfortunate events. I would say the one that really led me back to therapy was that I found out who I thought was my biological father was not my actual biological father.

40:07My mom had had a seven-year affair. I have three older brothers. two of them and myself are products of this affair. And finding that information out two years after she died, not from her, was really the nail in the coffin. And it kind of made me go, okay, if she was just unable to be truthful on something this significant, I think that speaks to a lot of other ways that she behaved and ways that she couldn't be truthful. And I think it's worth addressing the fact that maybe she was abusive. And I think I better start kind of exploring my life and my childhood with this new information and see what that brings up for me.

40:44And that's what got me to start accepting it. That's interesting, because, you know, it doesn't on the face of it seem like the worst thing that she did, I can see that it would be immensely upsetting and that your whole world is sort of shifted on its axis. But in another way, I mean, you talk in the book about her being, I don't know how exactly to describe it, but sort of physically intrusive in an inappropriate way that she would sort of, are you okay talking about this by the way? What would she do? She would sort of give you examinations, physical exams? So she showered me until I was 17, 18.

41:18She showered you meaning what? She would be in the shower with you? She would be in the shower with me, shampooing and conditioning my hair, washing my body. She would give me breast and vaginal exams in the shower and said that she was checking for lumps. She was just checking for cancer. And I thought, well, okay. She would be naked as well? No, she would be clothed, but it was uncomfortable for me. I knew it felt violating for me, and I knew I didn't want it. But the one time I had attempted to even say, hey, do you think I could shower myself, she blew into hysterics and it just became clear to me, oh, I can't ever try to shower myself again.

41:52And so literally the only thing that got her to stop showering me was that she was re-diagnosed with cancer when I was 18. And she had to have rounds of chemotherapy and radiation. And I had to go on a music tour. She physically could not be with me. And that was, I think, the only reason why I was able to finally start showering myself. What was it about, do you think? God, I don't know. This is one I don't know the answer to. It's about having no boundaries, I would have thought. It's no boundaries. I think it's ownership. I think it's the fear of me growing up. It's body monitoring, which is pretty often in people with eating disorders, that they monitor themselves and their own bodies.

42:28They'll touch their bodies. They'll feel kind of using their hand as a measurement on their waist or their arm or their leg or whatever and kind of comparing to what it was before. And, okay, well, I know my fingers are this size, so my arm must be, okay, so I must be smaller than I was, so good. Or bigger, oh, bad. And I think my mom was also body monitoring me with the showers. so you mentioned i mean sorry i feel like we're doing a whistle stop tour of like you know some of the most painful things that you've lived through but i guess if you're okay with it then i'll just point out a few more landmarks one of the things i've admired about how you've told your story but also one of the things i suppose was most eye-opening was about bulimia and the extremity of what that really can entail so if you're okay with it i wouldn't mind talking to about that.

43:15Yeah, for sure. How do we say this? It's almost like bulimia arrived for you with the force of a revelation. Like, here's the thing I've been looking for my whole life. I can have everything I want, eating and not putting on weight. Yeah, it started for me the day my mom died. I had kind of attempted it a few times before and hadn't really been able to purge effectively. And then I was able to. I had the motivation to. And it felt like the answer to me. Anorexia had always been a means of control. I had felt sickly safe or good in the anorexia because it was just such an obsession, such a fixation that if that was the only thing I was thinking about and if I was doing that well, then it made me feel good.

43:56Like everything else didn't matter as much if the anorexia was going well. And then the binge eating just felt like pure shame. I felt terrible about myself. I felt like a failure. I felt awful. So then bulimia comes along and it's like, well, this is the best of both worlds. I can actually eat stuff and I can just get rid of it afterward. Why didn't I do this sooner? This is amazing. And it hit me hard. Yeah, it hit me hard and was really intense for the time that I had it. I haven't had it or any eating disorder for years now. But you're all right talking about it. Yeah, yeah, totally. So describe how that works.

44:29You know, everyone's heard the term, but it was multiple times a day, right? Oh, yeah, it could be up to a dozen times a day. It was pretty constant for me. it really ran my thinking is I think the thing that might be surprising to people. And from what I hear of other people who have, it's pretty common that it's like, it's an addiction. It was really what my world revolved around. Everything else was too overwhelming. You know, it was too overwhelming to face, hey, my mom died. Hey, I'm in the public eye for a thing that brings me shame. I don't know how to get out of it. I don't like acting, but it's also the only thing that's ever defined me.

44:59I didn't know where to start with anything in my life. So bulimia just took up 90 % of my thoughts and my thinking. From the moment I would wake up in the morning, I'd think about my weight. I'd think about what I could eat, the possibilities of what I could eat, but not wanting to eat to the point of I would spray perfume on food to try to not eat it. And then I'd still eat it. And then I'd throw that up and then I'd throw it away. I'd take it out of the trash. Like it really was an addiction. What would you eat? Were there things that you sort of were especially in the thrall of food-wise? Yeah, so I kept trying to outsmart the bulimia.

45:33So I'd think, well, maybe if I go to Whole Foods and I spend a bunch of money on groceries, and I had really intense financial anxiety, maybe I will be able to not throw up the food because I'll know, oh, well, I spent$100 on groceries. I'm not going to throw that up. That wouldn't work. I'd think, well, maybe I'll eat just healthy foods. Maybe I won't be as tempted to throw them up if I just eat a salad with salmon, and maybe I'll get no dressing on the salad. And you know what, maybe I won't get any nuts either because those have some fat in them and maybe I actually won't have the salmon. So maybe I'll just have the lettuce.

46:02And then maybe if I just have the lettuce, I won't throw it up. That wouldn't work either because I'd get hungry and then I would eat the salmon and I would eat the nuts and I would eat the dressing. So I would attempt to eat really healthy foods and then couldn't stick with that. So then would order fast food, Del Taco, or there's a place near my home at the time called Laurel Tavern that I'd get like Brussels sprouts from that place. And I'd just wolf the Brussels sprouts and then fries and And I'd wolf the fries and then I'd throw up and then I'd go and eat more because, surprise, I'm hungry again.

46:30And then I'd wolf again and then throw up again. And it was just like, it just felt like chaos, just chaos. And as you're doing it, how are you feeling? Frenzied, really distracted, really scattered thinking. But afterward, relief. The anxiety would go down because I was so physically depleted. I was so physically exhausted, dehydrated, that I had nothing, literally nothing left in me. And so I'd feel like, oh, now I can sleep. Thank God. Now I can breathe. It was, unfortunately, the most effective tool I had at the time. And what are the, just to ask something really stupid, what are the health ramifications of that?

47:11Bulimia is actually the, this is such a boring statistic thing, but it's like one of the leading mental illnesses that leads to death because of heart attacks. It really affects your heart more so than any other eating disorder or anything. So it's not uncommon for people to have heart attacks or also to choke on their own vomit. That can happen. Otherwise, it often is really tied in with suicidal ideation and teeth issues. I still struggle with a lot of teeth issues. I don't love going to the dentist. I have to go all the time just because there's still years later, you know, repercussions. How does it affect your teeth?

47:43The acidity in your stomach fluids just wears down your enamel and basically rots your teeth. I actually lost a tooth at one point in an airplane bathroom and smells and it's awful and it is a real low point for me. Which is of course in the book, there's an extraordinary series of like six pages in the book where first you discover your dad isn't your real dad. Then your boyfriend announces that he's got news, which is that he's Jesus. And then your tooth comes out while you're vomiting on a plane. Yeah, they actually did happen back to back. That wasn't me sort of like wedging them into the same week.

48:18Like it did all happen. Sometimes when people sort of tee me up for a thing, I feel this instinct to not do it. What is that about? I wonder. Right? Well, because you're so bored because you've been on your book tour for about a million years. It feels like that. It's like Bob Dylan. He would never play the song the same way. That's why when you see Bob Dylan, you're like, what? Is that like a Rolling Stone? Or is that Rainy Day Women? Or is that just a crazy man burbling? Not to compare you to a crazy man burbling. The comparison was very inapt. But it is striking that in your story, it's like the wheels come off after your mum dies, really.

48:58Because there's a version of this where you get disenchanted with child acting, your mum dies. So you might think, oh, well, now you can start figuring things out and getting your life on track. But it seems like that's the moment where your bulimia starts, you become more confused about where you fit into the world. Oh, yeah, because I was so codependent with my mom, and codependent with her and enmeshed with her. And I think my whole identity kind of revolved around what she wanted. When she died, it was not at all just like a quick, like, I'm glad my mom died. I mean that literally, but that was not how I felt.

49:33The title of the book, just to remind people is, I'm glad my mom died. So you meant that literally. Yeah, sorry, I interrupted. No, not at all. I meant it literally. But it was not how I felt initially after she died. It took years to realize that that was how I felt finally. And it was a freeing thing to feel that and a scary thing to accept that. But after she died initially, I felt completely lost. I had no idea who I was without her. She was so commanding and had so much say in who I was. You know, She dictated everything for me. I would look to her, you know, if we were in the same room together, I would just be reading her mannerisms and her facial expressions, just hyper vigilant to any adjustment so that I would know how I needed to be.

50:14And without that constant feedback, without her kind of dictating all of it, I felt like I don't fucking know how to behave. I don't know who I am. I don't know how to be in settings. I don't know who I like, what I like. I just had such an identity crisis. and I think the loss paired with the identity crisis is what led to the bulimia, the alcohol issues, just kind of unraveling of myself and then it didn't help of course like you mentioned with the dad stuff and the boyfriend being schizophrenic. I felt like my god like when can I catch a break but I think if all those things hadn't happened I don't know if I would have been driven to such a low point that I would have had to confront all that.

50:53I think it had to just keep getting worse for me to go, oh, I can't avoid it any longer. Like I have to do something about this, about myself. I have to try to change. I have to try to work on myself. I have to try to face these uncomfortable realities because living in avoidance isn't working anymore. It was literally not working anymore. If you've grown up adjusting yourself to the contours of a narcissistic and domineering personality as you did, that almost can become comfortable in certain respects. That's what you're used to. And then when that person disappears, how do you then get to the place of being able to have healthy relationships?

51:31Because actually that becomes so intertwined with how you relate to your significant other. I could see there'd be a danger of looking for that in your relationships. Yeah, I had a really unhealthy pattern. That was absolutely my pattern. And do you know about like attachment theory? A tiny bit. Why don't you help me out and tell me what it is. My understanding of it, and I'm going to butcher it, I'm sure, is there's kind of a spectrum of how you're attached to your significant other, and that's defined by what your attachment was to your primary caregiver growing up. And I didn't know this for a long time, but the fact that my mom had cancer when I was two, I guess that's a really pivotal age for attachment and for what your attachment pattern becomes.

52:15She was constantly in and out of hospitals, you know, would have established a certain kind of attachment pattern for me. So that attachment pattern is fearful avoidant. I can also be kind of hyper anxiously attached. I kind of switch attachment patterns. It leads to a lot of chaos. I had a lot of really difficult dysfunctional relationships, a lot of breaking up and making up and I should leave, I shouldn't leave. I really, really struggled with relationships yet felt like I needed them more than anything and wanted them and craved them more than anything. I just want to be close to people, especially one person.

52:51That's just all my heart has ever wanted. And how is this all that I want? Yet I feel like I'm always messing it up. I can't get it right. I can't be who I want to be in relationships. And I can't find a person who is a good match. Why is this so difficult? But I'm really fortunate now. I've been in a relationship for almost seven years and it's healthy and good. And some days I can't believe it. and I feel like it's an accomplishment that I'm really proud of. It's weird to call a relationship an accomplishment. Not at all. A healthy relationship is almost the ultimate accomplishment. I'm so glad you think so.

53:24I felt weird saying it. I just never thought it would have been possible. With what my parents were, with how they were, with how my first few relationships were, I just felt like I'll never get there. And now I have one. And I guess the big shocker is that sometimes it's just boring. Sometimes I still feel my nervous system is still wired for chaos, some degree of dysfunction. And so the worst I have to deal with is, oh, sometimes it's boring. And I'll take that as the worst I have to deal with. You don't feel it's incumbent on you to create drama then at that point to provoke a confrontation?

53:53I think that was maybe one of my kind of like leading unhealthy patterns in relationships. I didn't know I was provoking drama or I wouldn't have done it. That sounds awful. You know, I think it was just anytime something started to feel safe, well, I better run. I better leave because now it's starting to feel safe. And so my therapist describes it as feeling unsafe and feeling safe. So getting used to feeling safe is something I've had to work on a lot. And now I much prefer it. Chaos is exhausting. Dysfunction is exhausting. There's nothing left. So you mentioned I'm Glad My Mom Died is the title.

54:27And obviously it's a brilliant title in as much as it's so sort of intriguing. It feels transgressive. You've spoken in the past about how that's not just a jeu d 'esprit. Like it's literally true. It's how you feel, correct? Yeah. Your last chapter is also striking because you're at the graveside and you acknowledge her good qualities, but you say, yeah, basically, I could never have thrived as long as she was alive. Just to put this out there, like, you're sort of happy that you've landed there. And I just wonder whether that, in a very literal-minded way, I was thinking, well, isn't it possible that she could have lived and you could have just cut off contact with her?

55:05It sounds like you don't feel like you could have been in a healthy relationship with her. I certainly don't believe it would have been possible to be in a healthy relationship with her. I, for a long time, thought that I wouldn't have been able to be healthy enough to cut off communication with her, that I would have just always kind of been at her hand and done what she wanted. But I think maybe I'm at a place where I give myself a little more credit than that. I actually don't have a relationship with my grandma. I have no communication with her. And I think it's possible that I could have gotten there with my mom also.

55:33But I think that would have been the only other path. I don't think there would be a way to have, you know, a boundaried relationship with her because boundaries are just something she couldn't tolerate. Yeah, I guess that's exactly what I was asking, which is that maybe you don't give yourself enough credit because the suggestion you make is that you were so in her thrall that you would have been, as you say, at her beck and call as long as she was alive. Yeah, that's what I thought for a long time. But I think it's possible I would have just cut it off. how you know in touring the book and in reaching out to other people that have bought it and read it correct me if i'm wrong like people are saying to you that there's something about your relationship with your mum that they connect with is that right yeah and i think what it made me think about was you know as your parents get older and they become in their different ways sort of eccentric and how you sort of separate those parts of their behavior that you think you need to challenge and confront in order to sort of maintain your own self-respect and those parts of their behavior you just chalk up to them being who they are.

56:35And as I say, getting a little bit older. These are the hardest relationships to manage in life in a way. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And I agree. I do think they're the hardest relationships to manage. When you speak to people, what do they say? That they can relate? Or what kind of feedback are you getting? A lot of people say, my mom's alive and I can't say this, but I feel the way about her that you've felt about your mom. I get that probably most often. My mom's still alive. I can't say it. Thanks for saying it. Is there any part of you that wishes you could have said this to your mom?

57:05Yeah, yeah. Did your brothers feel the same way about your mom? One of my brothers actually got there first. He had said the only reason I would go back to mom's grave was to spit on it. And I remember it kind of shocked me. It was so angry. And I didn't understand it at the time. Now I really understand it. all my brothers agree. You know, we all had our own experiences, but we were all under the same roof with the same mom. And so she wasn't pushing them to get into show business. No, my oldest brother, she did kind of push into it for a little bit, but he was able to get out how I don't know why I don't know.

57:44I also think she just had more of her identity in me just being the only girl. And the youngest as well. And the youngest. Yeah. And probably just something she sensed in me, the worshipping toward her that I had. I think she just saw that and I don't think it was the same. I thought you were going to say the talent. How would it feel to acknowledge that alongside everything else that you said, she also saw that you were talented and would do well? Because I think that is also true, you know, and that actually she more or less dragged you to these auditions, but nevertheless, on your own merits, you were landing jobs and then doing extremely well.

58:21I guess it's weird to think that she would have spotted any talent because I didn't have any. Like starting acting, I was really bad. I was really uncomfortable. I mean, literally agents said like she has no charisma. Like they said, my brother was great and super charming, but I had no charisma. I was stiff. I was uncomfortable, anxiety ridden. Like I didn't know how to be present. I didn't know how to access that part of myself that I think it takes to act. And then I think I found it eventually, but it certainly wasn't there initially. So I don't know what she would have seen. You know, I hear all of that.

58:51And nevertheless, you did end up doing well. But I don't say that in any way justifies the hoops that you were made to jump through. And I'm remembering earlier in the conversation when me talking about you being in those shows, that was an emotional thing for you. Me too. Yeah. Why is that the thing that lingers? I feel like I've processed a lot. Yeah, I suppose your tooth falling out on a plane or, you know. Truly. Yeah, it's something I'm actively working on. What is it about this that's the thing that sticks. Maybe I worked on the things that affected me more and this is just kind of still there lying dormant or something.

59:21I don't know. Should we talk about the creator? Sure, we can. I get a little nervous because people get excited to do like headlines on anything about him, but I'm, you know, I'm bound to go there. Okay. So there's a character called the creator who created the shows that you were in. It's been speculated online. Well, it's been pointed out that the creator of your shows was someone called Dan Schneider, who was subject to allegations of being verbally abusive and inappropriate in various ways on set. I'm saying that. You don't have to say anything. You can if you want. I will say the environment that I was in for making children's television shows was undeniably toxic and aspects of it were undeniably abusive.

1:00:04And I don't think I realized it because those were the environments where I spent most of my time. I knew that sets beforehand had felt somewhat different, had seemed different. there had been a different vibe but I'd certainly been on tense set environments before but it was just by far the most intense the most extreme and then afterward I really realized how unhealthy it was. Do you think that was typical in so far as you can tell or was the creator unusually autocratic and unpredictable and emotionally manipulative saying like I could give you your own show if you want. I mean, if you want, I could give it to someone else or, you know.

1:00:43I don't think that was a typical situation. You know, I had a lot of friends on Disney Channel shows. I was on Nickelodeon. I had friends on Disney Channel shows and it seemed like everyone kind of knew of the creator. Everyone knew rumors about him. Everybody seemed to know the kind of set that he ran, that he led. It was a lot of like, how's it going over there? We've heard. That was kind of how people spoke about him. And I think it's the case that if it's someone who's created a lot of hit shows, if they're a rainmaker, these are guys who basically get so much latitude. And whether that's part of it, it goes to their head or, you know, that sense of being overly entitled.

1:01:20Like it seems like he was grinding out hours and hours of hit television and was bringing out the worst in him. I also think he had a knack for finding people who had a people-pleasing instinct, who really wanted to do well, who were followers. Every department head was just, you know, yes sir, yes sir, of course, yes sir, absolutely anything you need. Like so accommodating, so working way more hours than they should, and trying to make and keep him happy, it did not feel different from home in that way. I felt like at home it was everybody was trying to make and keep mom happy. At set it was everybody was trying to make and keep the creator happy.

1:01:54Did you think that you liked him? Was it something that you had to realize, or did you know that you didn't like him? It's funny, because I feel like my body always knew. My body always knew when I was uncomfortable, when I felt on edge, when I felt tense, when my shoulders would clench up. But I just wanted to please him. I was just so focused on pleasing him and doing a good job and getting whatever opportunities I could, you know, per my mom's wishes. So that was really just my focus. But then, yeah, in retrospect, I just remember how often I was just so uncomfortable. At one point, Nickelodeon offered you$300 ,000 for a sort of non-disclosure agreement.

1:02:31Yeah. What was that about? It felt nasty. It felt gross. You know, the way I see it now is like, I think it was just moral righteousness. And then sort of almost instantly after saying, no, I'm not taking the money, I felt like that's a lot of money. Like, that's a lot of money. So you're explaining why you turned it down, but what was on their minds? Oh, the conversation was that I would get this money if I didn't speak publicly in any way about my experience on set. I mean, at this point, the set environment was so chaotic that the creator was not able to talk directly to actors. So he was off in like a little soundproof room watching us on four monitors, one for each camera.

1:03:11and then our sweaty, exhausted, hardworking first AD would run to the opposite side of the soundstage to get the note from the creator, then run back to the opposite side of the soundstage to relay the note to us. Because he can't be around people because they don't want to get a suit? How does that work? I think they were just worried about something getting out. I think it was to the point where it was enough people knew about this. There was enough speculation. There were enough people who had been in the presence of it that I think they were just like, we've got to do something about this.

1:03:49you're listening to the louis theroux podcast only on spotify

1:04:08you know i think i said the book is superb and just as someone who's written a few books i kind of admire the technical side of it as much as anything because clearly there's a lot of people who've been through things, believe it or not, as bad as you, and in some cases worse. I hate to shock you or undermine your subjectivity and your narrative. But I think the reason people have bought your book is really also because it unfolds as a brilliant piece of storytelling with scene setting and crisp dialogue, short chapters, each of them like a little epiphany or a vignette. You've got a real gift for exposition and comic storytelling in its sardonic key.

1:04:50Oh, I appreciate that so much. I think it was a lot of work to write it, wasn't it? It was a tremendous amount of work. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. You probably rewrote it about five times. Twelve times. I rewrote it a dozen times. Yeah, a dozen times. By the time it was like the ninth draft, I was just like, I never wanted to look at it again. I was so tired. I felt like I had it memorized at that point. It was just like annoying. Of course you wrote it twelve times. Nothing that's that enjoyable to read is written easily, I think, in general. Oh. It would be supernatural otherwise.

1:05:20Thank you. I was going to say my editor was great. I feel like there's a lot of times where you get notes and you're like, oh, this person just doesn't see what this is. Like they're trying to note me into a different thing entirely. And I felt like he really gave notes on what it wanted to be. And he understood the voice instantly. And he was just extremely helpful and wonderful. His name is Sean Manning. Shout out Sean Manning, if you're listening. You know, the thing I didn't say is, maybe I should say this. How are you doing now? how is your relationship with food? We didn't really talk about that.

1:05:52Oh, no, I'm really glad you asked. I consider myself fully recovered, which is actually sort of controversial in the eating disorder community. They say to always say that you're recovering because we're never fully recovered. We have to think about it every single day. And I just think that's kind of bullshit. And that's really demotivating. I wouldn't feel motivated hearing that. And I haven't binged, purged, restricted a calorie, counted a calorie, monitored anything on my phone, weighed myself in years. I eat whatever I want, whenever I want. I'm proud of that. I want it for anyone who's struggling and I want them to know that it is possible.

1:06:26I love that I just love food and I don't think anything of it. It feels amazing and free. And I read that you decided, maybe controversially, not to have any kind of trigger warning in the book. Is that right? Yeah, somebody had suggested that we do a trigger warning, and I felt really strongly that we couldn't. I saw an eating disorder therapist early on, and they said that trigger warnings are actually really damaging because everything can be a trigger. And if you are walking through your life trying to avoid your triggers, you lose the opportunity to actually work on what those triggers are bringing up for you and to actually face the issue.

1:07:05So he encouraged me to view triggers as an opportunity, which sounded like a slap in the face at the time. I didn't want to hear that a trigger was an opportunity. That sounds lofty and crazy. But I really did see a lot of value in working on my triggers and being triggered constantly every single day and facing what they had to offer. And so I kind of viewed it the same way for my book. And I thought, well, probably the person who would most shut it away because of the trigger warning would benefit the most. I like that. Maybe we should start having opportunity warnings. please right that's a bit like when in the self-help community where they say we don't talk about problems we talk about challenges you know because who doesn't want a challenge in their life it makes life exciting right and so from now on my shows are going to carry opportunity warnings you know what gets me i don't like when they say like resilient like that's a bad job i'm like you're so resilient wouldn't you rather have the life that didn't necessitate you being resilient No, you disagree.

1:08:01I'm thinking about that. Well, but I like courageous and I like brave. But actually, sometimes people say about my programs, that was very brave. And it sounds like they're saying foolhardy or rash or ill-judged, right? Like, why did you make a program like that? Well, it was brave. It was a brave choice. I hear that also sometimes in brave. Do you? About the book. The book was very brave. Yeah. I defensively am like, no, it was well-written. Like I just clenched to whatever I wanted to be. I want to hear the right kind of praise. I don't know. Yes. I don't. There's certain compliments. I'm like, no, that wasn't it.

1:08:36That wasn't the right word. I absolutely feel that.

1:08:57So I hope you enjoyed that chat with Jeanette. I know I did. It was a real pleasure. I am kind of a fanboy about writing. Maybe that came across. I could see in reading her book and listening to it, because I listened to the audiobook as well, how much work had gone into it. So rewriting it, she said, how many times? Twelve? That wasn't a huge surprise. and the shows, one thing that brought her to tears was the recollection of the shows the experience of which is clearly still traumatic for her nevertheless, those shows are quite good as children's television goes I was thinking of watching some of them with my 8 year old to see how he enjoyed them so I wish Jeanette all the best I'm going to be looking forward to whatever she writes next just to provide a little context for some of the things we talked about specifically what Jeanette was saying about the man known as the creator Last year in 2022, Russell Hicks, former president of content and production at Nickelodeon, released a statement regarding Dan Schneider, who some have speculated might be the creator, saying that he, quote, cared about the kids on his shows even when their own families did not.

1:10:03He was the shoulder they cried on when something happened to them. He understood what they were going through. Dan was like the great high school counselor you could always turn to for help and guidance, and he was their biggest champion. And he went on to say every single thing that Dan ever did on any of his shows was carefully scrutinized and approved by executives at Nickelodeon. In an interview with the New York Times in June 2021, which I think we will link to in the show notes, which has a kind of a weird photograph of Dan Schneider standing next to a tree. Make of that what you will. In that, Dan denied claims that he, quote, sexualized, end quote, the child actors on his show after several posts went viral on Twitter.

1:10:38He said the posts were, quote, ridiculous. and he denied sexualising any of the young actors claiming the comedy was totally innocent. Dan Schneider parted ways with Nickelodeon in 2018 after an internal investigation by ViacomCBS found evidence of verbal abuse towards his colleagues. So make of that what you will. And just to say that for information and support on the issue of eating disorders, or indeed any of the other difficult subjects discussed in this episode, you can go to Spotify.com backslash resources. Also, the fictional town in the Andy Griffith Show, in case you care, you may not, was called Maybury, but it was based on Andy Griffith's real-life hometown of Mount Airy, North Carolina.

1:11:22Lovely little town, which also boasts the American Independent Wrestling Federation, or it used to in 2000 when I went there and made that episode, that hallowed and rather wonderful episode of Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends. I like to have Louis Theroux in everything that I'm creatively involved in. The Andy Griffith Show ran from 1960 to 68. So, just time for credits. This episode was produced by Paul Kobrak and Mahn Al-Yaziri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer, Aaron Fellows. The music in this series is by Miguel de Oliveira.

1:12:05This is a Mindhouse production exclusively for Spotify This episode is brought to you by Shopify When I was younger I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete I was a fast runner, I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics Or be blasted off into space As it happens, neither of those dreams came true I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever.

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