S1 EP8: Samantha Morton on growing up in the care system and facing adversity in the acting world

23:50I don't think they're really giving me something from in here. Really? Those actors would be cruel to name names, would it? I'm so fussy, though. I'm not going to say anyone. Are there people you wouldn't work with? Like, big names are you like? I'm not working with that person. Yes, categorically. Because it's all up here. Lots and lots and lots. It's not down here. It's not in the heart. It's not just heart, Louis. It's something else. It's something else. You called out Liz Hurley. That's on public record. You said she wouldn't do street theatre in Poland. It was quite a weird benchmark. It's like, where are you on the street theatre in Poland-o-meter?

24:25I'd do street theatre in Poland, but I don't think it would make me a good actor. I was a kid. I was very young. I don't know how that was asked. you know to be fair to Liz Hurley who I've never met she's an actress there's so many different types of us and we're all under the same brolly but you know there's a lot of people she's not good though I mean I only saw her in Austin Powers and it's really odd when you see bad acting because you don't see it that much when you see bad acting you're like oh wow that is what that's yeah but they're protected by good editors I've worked with some people that literally can't say a line and they're huge they've got their acting coaches on set by the monitor really they're called their voice coaches.

25:02There's a lot of stuff that's by the numbers. And I think what I get from your, looking back over your filmography, you've done extraordinary films and you've really picked a path. I don't know if it's a road less traveled, but you've worked with such interesting people, you know, all the way from Spielberg, Harmony Corinth, Charlie Kaufman, like all those auteur directors who have really distinctive voices. Yeah. So just saying that I'm complimenting you And to each role you bring a quality of whatever it is, like authenticity or some kind of vulnerability, just a really complex screen presence.

25:38Oh, I should mention Tom Hooper. I wanted to mention him as well, because your role in the TV film Longford, in which you play Myra Hindley against Jim Broadbent playing Lord Longford, was also amazing. Thank you. People don't ever mention that, so that's really helpful. When you look back at your, I mean, there's so much to dig into. Is there work that you're particularly proud of? I loved playing Alpha in The Walking Dead, but not a lot of people, like arty people, if you like, have seen that role because it's a horror show and it's season nine. My son said he was excited that I was speaking to you because of The Walking Dead.

26:16I jumped off the bus at season four. Some of the writing, I think the way you are with acting, maybe I am with writing. and some of the writing in season two was a bit wobbly and then it came season five. Some of the characterisations, I was like, this isn't consistent. And you know, it is a lot of episodes. So forgive me if I haven't seen that, but it's nice to hear that you're proud of it because quality television is a beautiful thing. But I don't know if the episodes are any good. I'm just proud of what I did in my role. That sounds very arrogant and eager. How many episodes did you watch before you took the role?

26:46Just the first season. Barely get started. Because I didn't have telly then. I lived on a farm in the north of England and it was grade one listed so we couldn't put anything on the outside of it and we didn't have internet for a really You don't have to make excuses No, no, it's not I literally, when the show was offered to me they were like, what, you'd never heard of the show? And I was like, I remember seeing a billboard with Andrew Lincoln with a big cowboy hat on That's good enough Tell them that at the audition Well, this is the thing You don't know Do you do an audition? Just in passing Do you do an audition for something like that?

27:16Or they say no No, you want Samantha Morton You know what you're getting She auditions for nobody. Are you kidding me? I should put the phone down on you right now. I would audition. That's me being your agent. Yeah, thank you. I would audition. But I also like to audition other people. They want to meet me. I want to meet them. So the offer comes in and we get on a Zoom or we meet for a cup of tea or coffee. And you just walk away and go, do I want to work with those people? No, no, no. You know, so that's what happens. And I think that's really sensible because the worst thing is to just spend months of your life with people that you have nothing artistically in common with.

27:50It can be very, very miserable. But I'm very proud of that role. It's the hardest thing I'd ever done, the character itself. And it was like, yeah, I loved it. It was my first American television. And so I felt really proud that that muscle had been exercised because American television is very different to British television. And I can say, oh, I've done that. In what way? How is it different? Oh, it's brutal. It's brutal to do that many hours. The scripts are coming in at a fast pace, learning things. You just feel like top of your game. Like I felt amazing doing that. And then some movies you do, they take so long and there's, you know, there's a lot of money wasted.

28:25And can we just do it? Can we just get there and just do it? Can we talk for two seconds about Tom Cruise? I love Tom. I was a bit overwhelmed by his enthusiasm to start with, because when you've done a good take and he's like, yeah, and he's so enthusiastic. and I didn't know how to be with that at first. I hope I didn't come across rude to him when I didn't do the high fives. He would do a high five after a scene, like, that was an awesome take. Yeah, Sam, you killed it. Yeah, he's so enthusiastic and stuff and I was really cynical. And it's hard when someone's bringing that energy, you feel like you need to mirror it, but then you feel like you're not being the real you sometimes.

29:02Oh, I wouldn't even do the mirroring. Just didn't know how to respond. So I think I was a bit in the Agatha zone of like, I wasn't method and I'm not a method actor, but I do certainly like to find a space where I can, at any given point, if I'm asked to do something, be able to perform it. I mean, I was still, what was I, 21 or 22? This was Minority Report, for those who don't know. A film directed by a little known director. Actually, he should get more attention. His name is Steven Spielberg? Mr. Spielberg. He was lovely. Tom Cruise called you lightning in a bottle. Oh, that's... I mean, maybe I was when I was younger.

29:39Maybe I'm a bit more sleepy ship in a bottle now. I don't know. Harmony Corrine, who I've got a slight fascination with, famous director of Gummo, Julian Donkey Boy, and the one you were in, Mr Lonely. Yeah. About lookalikes holed up in a Scottish castle, also starring Werner Herzog, a fellow documentary maker. You played a Marilyn Monroe lookalike, falling in love with a Michael Jackson impersonator. What a great script. Him and his brother wrote that. It's just this beautiful concept about all of these lookalikes who are always on the road, always doing their work, just decide to live together in a commune and just the dynamics of all that.

30:19And my daughter, Esme, who is now an actress, that was her first role. So she played the Shirley Temple lookalikey in that. It was a really beautiful time. I confess I haven't seen it yet, but now you've encouraged me to seek it out. It's sweet. It's just sweet And finally John Carter Did you think I was going to mention that one? It's the 10th most expensive film ever made Directed by Andrew Stanton Who'd previously directed Finding Nemo and WALL-E It was his live action feature directing debut I went and saw that at the cinema Do you know who I played in it? I'm not going to ask for my money back I believe you played Solar, a thark Yeah, princess.

31:04So when I got this email, my agent was like, so there's this, you know, Andrew Stanton wants to meet you for this big John Carter of Mars. It's Edgar Rice Burroughs, and I love Tarzan, so I loved Grey Stoke. Right, who wrote Tarzan. Yeah. I was like, oh, okay, amazing. And all it said in the thing was Princess Solar, and I was like, I've never played a princess before because I'm normally, I've got so many stories where I've auditioned for films, and I haven't got them because of my features. My forehead's too big, I'm goofy, overweight, underwear, whatever. How did they say, well, they would say, oh, we loved Samantha, but her forehead was just a little too big.

31:38Yeah, they actually did say that. I had a massive slap head, a big five head. Come on, I don't think they're allowed to say that. Well, they did. They wouldn't put that in print. Well, I don't know if they put it in print, but this was a problem. So I was, my ego was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to meet Andrew Stanton to possibly play a princess. And I go into the meeting and he's got all the artwork everywhere. And then he's like, so this is Solar. And I was like, oh, she's an alien, a green alien with like four arms and they're about seven foot. And Willem Dafoe was already cast as my dad at that point.

32:08So I was like, he was the other. It was this three picture deal and it was going to be amazing. And it was before Flash Gordon, before any of these superheroes. This is the original superhero. Basically what John Carter does. It's sort of the text of any kind of space opera. It was written in the late 19th century. Yeah, like 1910 or something, something like that. precursor to any comics, any of those things. I was really excited. And it's Andrew Stanton. Oh, my gosh, he's incredible. So I was really chuffed to get the part. And then I knew something was wrong when they weren't doing any big premiere.

32:41No, no, no, they had a little screen in and there was no posters and there was no press. And I was like, what's happening with this film? We were meant to be making the second film in Hawaii. And a third, two more. Yeah, yeah, and I was meant to be pretty much a bigger part, like the lead in the second one, because the dad dies and I'm like the queen of the Tharks now. And I was so excited because I had a great time filming the first one. It was incredible. There was no feeling on set that this could possibly be a clunker. No, no, no, no. It was a really good time. I loved it. We shot in Arizona and in studio.

33:12It was just amazing. And then, yeah, they bought Star Wars Disney, so they decided to pack it off. Is that what it was? Really? Yeah, definitely, yeah. And so they didn't promote it, didn't push it out there. It was fine. I was a bit sad to not work with Andrew Stanton again. But that happens. And it was, again, another experience. You know, like doing the television. There I was in a big action film kind of thing with a funny suit on with ping pong balls and a helmet with cameras and learning Thark. They actually wrote a language for it. I read that. The same people who developed Navar E. Yeah, yeah, for what's it?

33:47Avatar. Yeah. They worked up a language. So you actually learned Thark. Yeah. Dominic West was in it. Who did Dominic West play, just as a test? Dominic West played a prince that was trying to get off with... Did he play Sab Than, the Jedi of Zodanga?

34:07I think he did. Or Tardos Moor, the Hecador of the Thorns. Oh, he wasn't Tardos Moor. I don't think he played Tardos Moor. Who knows? I think what I read was that, actually, that source material is so mined in the Star Wars films. It's almost like, oh, this looks like a pastiche of... Yeah, but it's the original one. Whereas it's actually the other way around. Yeah, it was overtaken. But do you know what? It was a lot of fun.

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35:58Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you, you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now back to my conversation with Samantha Morton. We cover a lot of different things. I want to, you mentioned that you notice things. You said it's not so much acting per se, but you see things. Yeah. Do you relate that to anything? Do you think that's to do with having grown up in care or do you think that's just a natural gift that you had? I don't know, but I do know that it's about spirit. I would have thought as someone who is taken from their home, is going into other homes, is moving around foster homes and then residential care homes, someone who is in a new environment has to acquire the skill of noticing things about their new life very quickly in order to survive.

36:45Of course yeah and in a way that can help with your acting isn't it you know I can look back and go well I was always acting a little bit new family new rules new ways of foods new religions but I think what I'm talking about is something other I don't know like having a very active imagination maybe music having a profound effect on me and not everybody feels those things not everybody I think is as connected to we call them the arts you know but as connected to those things so there's something else going on there that even if I wasn't doing acting or drawing or music or any of those things there would be an element of what I bring to playing characters in my own life and I think it's humanity isn't it I think it's um trying to be a decent human being did you I know music is important to you and and And I read recently that, I don't know if this is true, that you did Desert Island Discs and that maybe off the back of that you will be recording some music.

37:41You've got like a record deal. Is that right? It isn't wrong, but it wasn't like that. I did some work with a musician artist called Chris Cunningham a few years ago, and he's an old friend. The director, the video director. Yes, yes. Didn't he do the famous Aphex Twin video, Come to Daddy? Yeah. Come to Daddy. He did all that, yeah. The same person. And so Richard Russell, musician, producer, listened to the Desert Island Discs and heard the Molly Drake song on there, the Firelight songs, one of my favourite songs. Right, Molly Drake, who's the mother of... Nick Drake, yeah. The folk legend Nick Drake, and you had one of her songs on your Desert Island Discs.

38:20And Richard heard it and then was making his album, Everything is Recorded. I think he was wanting to sample a bit of me talking about A Blue Butterfly. He didn't want to go through agents and stuff, which is fine I like that sometimes when people just want it to be a bit more personal so sent me a message through Chris saying listen could I sample your voice and if you you know want to come to the studio and listen to the music see if you're happy with it and I was like yeah so I went to meet him heard the little bit of a sample said yeah of course you can use that you can have it it's fine me talking about Butterfly and then we just started talking a couple of hours went past and we decided that we should make some music together.

39:00And it was just, there was no pressure. It was just nice. It was like, this is what we're doing. And then after a bit, it was like, you know, we've got a lot of stuff here, Sam, and I think we're like a band now. We're a synth pop duo. And I went, oh, we've been doing this for like six months or something. And then all of a sudden we had a lot of songs. It was like 18 or so songs that we'd made. Hang on, were you singing or were you playing an instrument? Singing and writing and piano, singing, writing and piano. So you play piano quite well. I plonk. I make stuff up. I wish I could plonk. Even planking would be something.

39:33It's not trained. And then, yeah, we had like all these songs and then we were so proud of it. So we decided that this is what we're going to do. So we are releasing an album. Richard Russell. Do I have the name right? Yes, you do. He's very well credentialed is what I've been told. What's he worked on? Is he a producer? He's a musician and a producer. And he also has a label called XL. I would know his work from... He did the amazing Gil Scott Heron album. The one that Gil Scott Heron recorded late before he died. Yeah, that's Richard's sound. That's Richard, yeah. So we are going into rehearsal in September.

40:06Yeah, going to rehearsals for the live shows. You have to come to one, Louis. Oh my God, I would kill to come. It would be amazing. I hope you like the music. This is the thing. This is like now. I'm sure I would. You know, I've enjoyed your musical choices in your film, The Unloved, And then a lot of the music, basically, I watched Morvyn Caller for the first time last night, almost feeling like, oh, this was the missing piece of my 20s that I didn't know was missing. It's almost an existentialist road trip with a female protagonist, sort of anti-hero protagonist, without giving too much away, with this amazing soundtrack.

40:44It has sort of Aphex Twin and Boards of Canada and quite a lot of Cannes, the German Krautrock group. And then I don't think it's giving too much away to say that it starts with she wakes up next to her dead boyfriend in their flat. And all the way through, you're like, what is happening? Like, you're constantly trying to figure out the choices she's making. There was an extraordinary, beautiful... It's Lynne Ramsey's the director, isn't she? And she wrote the screenplay, yeah, as well. And wrote it. So Alan Warner wrote the novel, amazing Scottish writer. You know, he did the Sopranos, he's an amazing writer.

41:17He can really write for women, he can write for girls. Sometimes male writers, when I read their writing, I'm like, oh, as if, get to fuck. You wouldn't do that. Oh, I don't believe that. And Lynn wrote an incredible screenplay and directed it. Exactly, and you're constantly watching and thinking, whatever that test is where it's like, is there more than one woman in the film? Is it actually a film in which the women have agency and aren't just adjuncts to the men? Yeah. This film passes that test with flying colours in the sense that... I think it was ahead of its time as well. And also you think like, oh, no, she's going to get assaulted.

41:47You just think it's going to go down some sort of path that would leverage some sort of victim narrative, right? Because they're obviously vulnerable. They're off their tits, if I can use that phrase, clubbing. And having romantic encounters with men, and you think, oh, this isn't going to end well. But that's not where it goes at all. It goes somewhere completely different. I think it must be interesting watching the film from an older person's perspective than if you'd have seen it when it came out. How dare you? Are you suggesting that I'm an older person? Do you know what I mean? It is, though, because we do see things with fresh eyes.

42:21It's like watching Gremlins with the kids. It's like, oh, I'm going to watch this film. It's a Christmas film with the kids, and it's so rubbish. And you're like, why is Gremlins so bad? Some films don't last at all, whereas more than Callow. I thought Gremlins 2 held up quite well. I haven't seen Gremlins 2. Better than the first Gremlins. You know, I had the same experience, though. I spent a lot of capital, figurative capital, social capital, trying to get my kids to watch a film I remember from my childhood called Candle Shoe, which had Jodie Foster in it. Okay, I'm going to write that down.

42:47No, after five minutes, I was like, okay, fine. It was so bad. Some of these films don't work, but when young people... So there was a screening of Morven Caller, I think, at the NFT recently, and young people watching it loved it. Like, it really had, you know, time travelled well. But yeah, it's interesting the kind of the worries that we might have as adults now watching that film about them being in danger or having encounters with young people of the same age whilst high or drunk. Yes, and it feels high risk in this day and age. It does, but not that. I mean, I don't know, students back then.

43:20I don't want to give too much away about the film. It's normal life. And actually, my point was simply that I enjoyed that it wasn't trying to be a kind of Me Too fable or a fable about consent. It's about something kind of weirder and more interesting. I don't even know what it was about, actually. To you. Because by the end of it, you're like, I think I like it, but I'm not really sure. I don't want to give away, if anyone out there does want to watch this film, first of all, it's Lynne Ramsey, if you know Lynne Ramsey, so it is really good, just cinematically and all the rest of it. But there's something quite inspiring in a pretty dark way about how she claims the right to have a future, to have some kind of other future than what's been prescribed for her.

44:04And interestingly, in the book, she was a foster child and she was kind of there in Oban. Imagine being a teenager sometimes in places like that. You know, it kind of can be tough. Well, in the film, because I actually watched it while reading, this is going to sound odd, while reading a transcript because I was missing parts of the dialogue. And the scene where Morvan arrives and knocks on a guy's door, he comes to the door and he says, I've just found out my mum's dead. And then she goes in and says, do you want me to tell you about how my foster mum died? Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So it's these kind of subtle references to the past.

44:37And then they're bonking. Yeah, well, they're dancing first. Dancing and drinking. Yeah, dancing and drinking first. I'm glad you watched that. That's cheered me up. I was so good. I loved that and I loved The Unloved as well. Thank you. And I thought, wow, you're a terrific director. I like documentary style direction. I'm a kind of a pervert for nuance and texture. So if things feel not quite believable, even if they're in the intonations and how people relate around each other, it takes me out of the moment. Yeah, filmmaking can be really pretentious as well in those kind of, you've got something happening, but we're going to frame it this way because it's more interesting and you miss what's going on with the people.

45:16Yeah. What I got was verisimilitude, like truthfulness in terms of, it's really about abuse among other things, but the way in which the abuse is enacted, it's very finely grained and it's horrendous. And at the same time, the people are behaving exactly as people behave. If that makes sense, like the girl slightly seems to imagine she might be giving consent, but clearly is in no position to give consent and the guy's preying on her under the guise of caring for her. As an explanation of those dynamics, it felt very subtle. Well, I think your job, my job, when I'm behind the camera, is to just try and find the truth and then just not be too invasive with the camera.

46:00That's why sometimes I don't want to do too many cuts or too many takes. so I do a lot of rehearsal prior to shooting with the young people so that they're so comfortable with the camera and this was a while ago now so we're talking 2007 2008 and now so many young people are very comfortable with cameras because Instagram TikTok whatever they're used to seeing themselves back then it wasn't so much so in the rehearsals I'd be filming everything so that by the time we got on the set the camera was like just so they could forget it was there so they weren't performing for the camera and likewise with the camera letting space and light happen because when bad stuff happens there's a tendency for certain cinematographers or filmmakers to want to get right in there let the audience see what's happening as close as possible and I think that when those things happen the earth is present as well the light is present the space is present and they're just as important as the thing itself.

46:58So how does that person feel? Let's say, for example, they are being molested or abused. I'm always fascinated in what are they looking at? What can they see on the wall? It's not always telling the audience what they're feeling physically. It could be where they're at mentally. Just allowing that process to happen and then obviously things can always change in the edit. But also working with children, you know, letting them be in that space and in their character. The two female principal characters One is I guess an 11, is she 11 or so? Yeah, yeah, fourth year junior And there's a 16 year old and it sort of follows their friendship And they're both extraordinary in the performances And one's coming into care in a residential home And she's put in a room with a 16 year old And at first she gets on the older girl's nerves And then they kind of rub along And there's a great scene where they go shoplifting Or one goes shoplifting and brings the little one And then it's so gobby with the security like, you know, fuck off your plastic police.

47:55And then it's continuing to be a gobshite in the car on the way back when the police are escorting her. You don't for a second sort of not believe it. Like, it just feels like... One of the moving things in your film is the girl, the younger girl, experiences the abuse vicariously. Like, she witnesses it. She's in bed seeing it happen. And a lot of the camera is on her face or her hiding her face as the older girl's being abused in her bed. and it's a very powerful way of doing it. Seeing both the impact, not just on the victim, but on the witness to the crime is really powerful. But I was going to say, just as upsetting or even more upsetting to me, it was a scene where the young girl goes home to see her mum and her mum seems almost a little bit miffed initially anyway to see her daughter home, a bit like, what are you doing here?

48:41And I just wondered how close to reality that was in terms of your own experience of your mum. That film could have been like a six-part telly where you understood why she was estranged from her mum. I wanted to take this character through that character's day or the next day or the next day and not explain anything. So you're just with Lucy all the time feeling how it is to be that person and that's all we can do. If we want people to think differently, this happened to me, I don't think this was okay, what do you think? Can we make a difference? Can we make this better? That was my motivation all the time and in reference to my mum.

49:16My mum had lots of different jobs. She worked all the time whenever she could and she was an amazingly dedicated grafter if you like. She worked at pork farms, double shift and she didn't want to be late for work but my mum also, and we don't have very long so I don't want to get into it too much, my mum also suffered extreme complex post-traumatic stress syndrome. She was very very mentally poorly a lot of the time due to things that had happened to her when she was younger. And Susan Lynch is one of my favourite actresses of all time, plays her so beautifully. And you have all the moments, the fantasy moments where Lucy's in bed with her mum and just the closeness of those moments, the dreams that Lucy has about having a mum.

49:57I never had a mum in the way that maybe other people do, but then everything's relative and everyone's got problems in their families. And it's how we forgive and we heal and we love each other and we're open to change. So I don't feel sorry about those things. And I was never crossed with Pam, who was my birth mother. But I had a fantasy about having a mummy like they were in the movies. Is she still alive, Pam? No, my mum sadly died 2017. She died quite young of lung cancer. My foster mum died of breast cancer, Sue. And it's like they were all my mum. So sometimes they say, oh, my mum died of breast cancer.

50:33And then she will go, but I thought your mum died of lung cancer. Oh, no, that was Pam. And that was my real mum, because I've got so many mums that have been my mum for a bit. So she was dealing with her own things? I don't know dealing with. I think she was just getting by, just going to work, coming home, fighting the social services to try and get custody of me at various times when she was well. Yeah, she was doing her best. Always doing her best. Did she have a diagnosis? I'd really like to be able to get hold of her records. and the stuff, it's hard to read it like in my files from the social services.

51:06It just talks about her hospital admissions, but no, it doesn't really say. And she was also heavily medicated a lot as well at certain times to cope with what happened to her as a kid and also the trauma of having your children taken away from you. Well, I would just mention briefly, like, you know, clearly that kind of subject matter, which is about vulnerability, it's also about predatory behaviour. And, you know, I've made several documentaries about sexual abuse or predators or sex offenders. And I've also made documentaries in prisons and mental hospitals. And I've often thought about whether I could make a film that was somehow based in some kind of secure unit for children or children in care.

51:48And what you keep coming up against is I could never see a way of making the film that wouldn't in some way end up compromised because of the need to take care of the kids. right? There's no film that's worth making if you think there's a chance it might end up hurting the kids. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What you did was perfect because it's better off to do it as fiction. I think that if they're young adults, let's say the government considers a 16 year old now as an adult. So you're not taking care of past 16 when you're in care. It should be 18, but they're not making it a legal requirement for local councils to take care of those young people.

52:22So if you were doing something in a secure unit, Louis, Why can't those things be made? How old would the kids be in a secure unit? It depends, but from 16, you can get a unit above 16. It's very rare you have younger people than that. I hear what you're saying about filming the abuse and not doing anything about it, but if you don't film it, if you don't somehow get the cameras in there, how are we going to have these conversations? Because I'm not able to make my second feature right now. Film four won't read it. The BBC haven't got back to me for eight months, So my second film is about leaving care.

52:56So The Unloved is about going into care. The second film is called Starling. It's been written for a long time. They don't want to make it. Why won't they make it? Just out of interest. I don't know. I've not had an email back from the Beeb. Just no response. And film four is just not for them. It's not a comedy and it's not a love story. The Unloved was a while ago now. When did you make that one? I've been trying to get it made for a very long time. Different producers now. And actually The Unloved did very well, didn't it? It got two million on Channel 4 when it went out. Yeah, I think at the time it got the highest viewing figures for a single drama at the time.

53:27Yeah, it won loads of BAFTAs and stuff like that and nominated for other things, and it went around the world in regards to its cinema release as well. But I think if you've won BAFTAs and you've got really good viewing figures, and it did really well, why don't they want to make the second part? It's not a shit script. If it's shit, they can just tell, but listen, it's just not good enough, we'll do some more work on it. But the script's in great shape. It's just they don't want to make that content. They don't want to make grim... It's not a tough watch, as in like, oh, this is like being squeezed through a mangle.

53:57I don't know. I wanted it to be financed through good old BBC or Film4, because it's taxpayers' money in that way. It belongs to the people. And this is a film about the people, for the people. That's how I've always envisaged my responsibility as a filmmaker. I get offered to do other films, all the rest of it. I can't tell those stories. I don't know how to tell that story. That's not me. I'm not a director for hire per se in that way. I've just got these particular stories I want to make and people don't want to make them yet. So I'm just going to keep on my soapbox until someone said, yeah, OK, maybe we're ready for it.

54:29But this is why people like yourself should, thank you, should go into these places and don't feel bad. I mean, there's so many brilliant documentaries out there that are incredibly tough watches. But then we have to have cameras in places that people don't want them. They've got to be there because people are so judgmental in the world at times. We're living in these times now where people are so kind of extremely this or extremely that. And we forget to just have a look at how it is for other people. You know, the shoe on the other foot, the realities for other people. So we get these glimpses into other people's lives and we see it differently and we grow up as human beings.

55:05We have compassion and empathy and we're less judgmental about things. And I think that's why films like The Unloved or documentaries that you make or the show I'm referencing just is an eye opener and a kind of a way of loving each other, loving human beings. How close was it to your upbringing? Does that reflect things you experienced? Oh, completely. But there was a lot of blending of stories. So this bit happened here and that bit happened there. Can't put that person's story in because they're still alive. Eek, we'll move that there. So it is all true, but different characters' names have been changed and all things like that.

55:40You've gone on the record in the past as saying that you experienced sexual abuse in at least one of the group homes that you were in? Yeah, there were lots of things at lots of different homes, but one particular time we're talking about, something happened. And I told my mum, I still knew my mum, I didn't live with my mum, but I used to go and see her. I told my mum and Frank, my stepdad, and we went to the police. and we told the police. And the police didn't do anything about it at all. It was one of the residential care workers who'd done it? Two, two, yeah. But there were other things happening in that home as well that I made a report about.

56:14And there was other homes where I witnessed things and reported them and things were never done. But I then went and told the officer in charge at the home and my account was verified if that, you know, whatever. There were more than one person there at the time. And I was just moved to another home and those staff members were downgraded. So they didn't lose their jobs. There was no investigation. They were just downgraded. And the reason I talked about that years and years later was because of the Rotherham stuff and the fact that the police knew. How old were you when it happened to you? I can't remember now.

56:45I think I would have been maybe 13, 1990. And you knew, not to ask a stupid question, but you knew it was wrong. It wasn't a case of, oh, I thought. I was really shocked. The staff members were drinking. There was a lot of drinking and there were young people at that home that were on the game. They were young teenage prostitutes, but they were being abused. You don't choose to be a prostitute when you're 15, 16. You're groomed and you're put into that profession. In fact, the term child prostitute using quote marks, I think, is rightly frowned on now. Like, it's about child pornography. That's abuse that's been videoed.

57:21It's not child pornography. Exactly. There needs to be new. It's a new language. Yeah, I... But these were girls who were in the residential home that you were in. One particular girl who I knew was being used by the staff. So I'd reported that anyway, and then this thing happened. And as I say, I was moved and they were downgraded. How did you know what was going on? Because you would have been, you said very young, like 13? Yeah, I was quite old. I was mature for my years. Kids like that are a lot older because of what you've experienced, and people expect a lot of you, even though you're looking back and you go, I was 12, 13.

57:52What the fuck? Yeah. Were the girls confiding in you? No, no, it was an older person. It was one particular girl. It was common knowledge and it was talked about who was getting what and when and why and there was a lot of drug taking in the home. But in particular, there was also a lot of sadness for me because these two particular care workers had been really kind to me for ages and ages. I thought they were cool and I just thought they were amazing because they were always so nice because there were so many really nasty ones. And then they were drunk and this thing happened And then what was really interesting is the police report.

58:25So after I spoke to Simon Hattonston years later... From The Guardian, you did an interview, right? Yeah. I just wanted to say, listen, things haven't changed. I reported something back then, went to the police about something that happened to me in a children's home. Nothing happened. They take the statement and then nothing is done. No investigation. There's nothing done. There wasn't an apology from Nottinghamshire County Council or from the police force. They denied it. And then we found the record, my historical records, you can find that thing. and all that was mentioned was that I'd reported some frolicking with staff members.

59:00And so my reasons for talking about it, and you have to remember that I have children, and so the impact of me having conversations like the one we're having now, that is on the record for the future, is grave. You don't just talk about these things because I didn't for years. It was important for me that I just got on with my life. It wasn't that I was burying anything. It just wasn't, to me, it wasn't relevant anymore. But when I saw what had happened in Rotherham and Oxfordshire, I was like, no way. And I phoned Karen Maskell, who was my publicist at the time, and I said, can you help me? I want to talk to somebody.

59:35I want to talk about what happened to me and say that it was happening then and it still hasn't changed. You know, it hasn't gotten any better for young people in care. Also, I read in an interview with you that because I think you've been keen not to stigmatize social workers as a group I think you said residential care workers tend to have fewer qualifications like the bar is lower or none or certainly back in the 80s and the 90s you didn't need any qualifications to get a job working in a children's home access to vulnerable children putting them to bed at night there'll be two staff members on with 16 or 17 young people aging from the age of say seven eight years old right up to 16.

1:00:16Some of those care workers were 19 years old themselves, 19 in charge of a unit. So that's what it was like then. Now we have a situation where there is nobody to answer to because they've all been privatised. Children's homes now are run by private companies who then monetise, charge local councils an absolute fortune for the care of these young people. And there's nobody to go to if you're being abused. I was going to come on to that. There is a fortune to be made. You read about pub landlords converting properties because they can make a better check, getting£12 ,000 a week in some cases for housing kids if they have complex needs.

1:00:53I would have been better off going to boarding school. I was a bright kid. I've often said, why didn't you just think about sending me to boarding school? The system isn't fit for purpose. The latest figures say there's about 80 ,000 children in care, I believe, across the UK. And there was a report last year that suggested that the system's still very much in crisis. You know, kids are being failed. Very often they're getting pushed into what they call unregulated homes, aged 15 and 16 at a point when they still need really good support and really good supervision. But what's your sense? Is that it's improving or not?

1:01:26The system is completely broken. A report that's just been done is absolutely shocking to do with the state of the care system today and young people in care. It says this is broken beyond repair. It has to be completely rethought and rebuilt from the ground up.

1:01:54you're listening to the Louis Theroux podcast

1:02:03hi I'm Louis Theroux and you're listening to the Louis Theroux podcast and now back to my conversation with Samantha Morton I just find it inspirational the way in which, I'm going to sound like Tom Cruise if I'm not careful, everything you went through to achieve the level of success and the level of excellence in what you do. I wish we could put that lightning in a bottle because I worry that there's all these talented people living in care homes or wherever, just their talents aren't being recognised. Without sounding really grim, I think teachers are striking, aren't they? everyone's striking because things need to be better for everybody and there's always the underdog there's always the vulnerable person and we need to be mindful that there's always somebody with a greater need than ourselves and I think young people watch and listen they do have access so we just have to keep telling them stories and keep telling them that they can get through it that there is another day that when it's really really rubbish I promise there's another day and it's better and that there's light at the end of the tunnel there always is there's always a new day and to give them hope and then from the other side of things whether it's through government or charities we'll find ways to help them from our end do you get involved do you are you involved in a charity do you go back to nottingham not local charities no i work with the nspcc and i work with the world health organization trying to eradicate violence towards children and put my name to things when they need letters and things like that.

1:03:34But fundamentally, it's the NSPCC. National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Yeah. Everyone knows that acronym. I don't know why I felt like I needed to say that. No, because we get used to abbreviations for things, don't we? And when you say the words, words have such power when you say them. I know. Cruelty to children. Prevents cruelty to children, you know. Thank you so much. Thank you, Louis. Amazing to talk to you. Hopefully our paths will cross again, either here or on Helium. Helium is the planet that John Carter went to. Well, you must be tired for asking lots of questions for two hours.

1:04:08Oh, no, I loved it. Guys, join it. Ma and Paul. Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you very much. Oh, for you. And I meant everything I said about digging into those films are so good. And especially the unloved Longford and Morven Caller were revelatory. And John Carter. And John Carter. I'm so glad you talked. No one's ever mentioned that. I love that. Have they not? Never. Never been asked about it, no.

1:04:41And with that, the conversation with Samantha was over. I love talking to Samantha and also diving into the amazing films that she's been in, which I recommend. And we'll have some links in the show notes to those of her productions that are available. that feel relevant. She's got a totally no-nonsense approach to Hollywood, and I imagine that served her in good stead in a profession that can be, well, predatory at times and certainly exposing, you know, both literally in the sense of requiring kind of nakedness, but also figuratively that you are emotionally laid bare. Her Channel 4 film, The Unloved, is definitely worth checking out, and you can still see that online.

1:05:24Check the show notes for links. Morvan Caller in particular is worth a watch John Carter maybe less so but it also has its charms if you'd like to spend a little time on the planet of Barsoom fictional representation of Mars John Carter's failure has been blamed on its promotion which has been called one of the worst marketing campaigns in movie history the film she made about Myra Hindley is also worth watching Her battles to continue with her trilogy of films on the experiences of the care system are, as I understand it, ongoing. Which is kind of amazing because that first film is so powerful you would have thought producers would be queuing up.

1:06:09From reading a little about the subject of children in care, it's clear that it's still an ongoing crisis. A little bit of data. This year in the UK, around 36 ,000 children and young people will enter the care system. that's 100 children every day. And it's horrendous to reflect on how many talented people, people with potential, people who should enjoy a positive start in life, will end up being funneled away from that. Last year, an independent review of children's social care called for a£2.6 billion investment to reform a system that is under, quote, extreme stress. the government response was well just way less than that so something to think about oh and just to say if you have been affected by any of the difficult issues covered in my chat with samantha you can find information and resources at spotify.com backslash resources at time of recording i have not yet heard the album that samantha's working on i live in hope that I may get an invitation to one of the live performances.

1:07:16I'm curious to know what kind of music it is. So, just time for credits. This episode was produced by Paul Kobrak and Mahn Al-Yaziri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer, Aaron Fellows. The music in this series is by Miguel de Oliveira.

1:07:40This is a Mindhouse production exclusively for Spotify I remember living in LA when the posters went up and I was like, oh, that looks quite intriguing There were posters, there were no posters in London I don't think at the time I think it's one of those ones where they open it in America and it's a big flop and then they're like OK, we're not going to worry about this one Yeah This episode is brought to you by Shopify When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true.

1:08:19I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business, because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S.

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