S2 EP4: Tracey Ullman on finding fame in the US, her relationship with The Simpsons, and clubbing with Prince

24:42And he was right. And I did. And it was great. Expanded everything. And I'd gone as far as I could in England, I think in the 80s, after the song started to peter out. So you went there. And, you know, so this theme about the class system and, you know, the relevant quote that I thought of when reading up on your story is from George Bernard Shaw, who in the preface to Pygmalion in 1912 wrote, it is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him. There you go. Whereas another philosopher called Tracy Ullman said, I'm even more amazed by the British class system now that I live away from it.

25:22It's just extraordinary. You open your mouth and people know exactly where you're from and what your aspirations are and how much money you have. I just said that again. See, you start repeating yourself in life. You do. And it would seem ridiculous and the royal family just seems ridiculous to me. It always did. You know, it was like we pay them millions of pounds to be better than us. It's what my husband used to say. So I'm not into all that. What would you like to see happen to the royal family? I don't know. What do they want to do? They're not going to just go away, are they? I mean, they've got all these lovely houses and they...

25:47Do you feel bad for Meghan and Harry? No, not at all. They're living in Santa Barbara. That's a torture. All the money in the world doesn't insulate you from grief and existential angst and the pain of family separation. No, no, I feel sorry for them. A lot of it must be dreadful. But I just don't get that side of things. You know, some people get it, some people don't, Louis. You know that. And I think a lot of people in this country feel that way. I mean, the irony is that L.A. in its own way has an acute, I mean, unbelievably sort of stratified sense of social hierarchy. Right. It's the classic place where if you're at the party and someone thinks that you're smaller than they are career wise, prestige wise.

26:28Oh, yeah. They talk to someone else. Pecking order. Totally. You get it. You know, we really see it. And it's never got to me, never bothered me. I got to do what I wanted to do in Los Angeles. And if you're working and you're having a wonderful time, there's a great creative community there. You go there to instigate ideas. And if you get to do it, which we did for a number of years and we were filming and working with great crews and writers, and it's a fabulous community, a working community. It's the people that aren't doing anything that bitch about the place. And if you don't like it, shut your jacuzzi lid and go home.

26:59You know, it's a tough place. It's like, it's an industry town. It's like if you're in Detroit, you're going to talk about cars, you know. But it's a beautiful place to be. And there's great things about Los Angeles. I had a wonderful time there because I got to do what I wanted to do. And I don't like all that bullshit, you know, the agents and the parties and the red carpet-y bollocks. And, you know, you get involved in that if you have to, but it's not what you really want to do. You want to do the work, you know. We should talk about how you became successful there. We've mentioned James L.

27:31Brooks. basically what was the process by which you ended up with your own show fairly quickly by the looks of it yeah there was a new network starting the fox network and rupert murdoch had bought fox and there were a number of new shows to be created and james l brooks had a big contract at fox and he saw me i think in plenty with meryl streep and i probably saw my i was on mtv at that time with the records and took a meeting with me and decided to do a show with me. And so that was great. And then I went off and had my baby. And as I told you, he told me to get an education in America, come back.

28:09And then I got some great writers. He put together great people. Julie Kavner, who'd been in Rhoda. Now she's, you know, Julie Kavner. She is Marge Simpson. About, you know, like four weeks into the show, James said, we need some animated segments. Why were very enthusiastic about this guy called Matt Groening. You had these books called Life in Hell. And a number of people were. I mean, he came in and he pitched a totally new idea to be little interstitial pieces within the Tracy Allman show. And so the Simpsons got their start on my show. And it was fantastic. It was, and I remember them coming in and saying, we need people to record these voices.

28:47And Tracy, you're too busy doing something else. And Julie, would you be the voice of Marge Simpson? Okay, sure. And off they'd go and they'd record in this booth. and it became huge. It spun off and, as we know, it was in its 36th season. It payrolled the Fox network because at that time a struggling network and then thereafter a lot of their problems were solved by this evergreen cultural product. Yeah. And Matt Groening, the original, I mean, he's a brilliant, brilliant man and it's wonderful. It's fabulous to be associated with it. Okay, so I don't want to make things super awkward, but we'll see how this goes.

29:26So I think at times you've had maybe an ambivalent relationship with the Simpsons phenomenon. I mean, I know you jokingly said, I breastfed those little devils but that there was maybe, I mean, I would understand like a feeling that, well, was there a financial side of this where you felt you weren't getting the payday that you were entitled to? Yeah. After it became super successful, they went off and then suddenly, did you not get money from... I do, I do. You also incubated The Simpsons, right? Yes. It was a spin-off, yeah. It was a spin-off. So what happened? And then contractual point was bought up by some lawyers I had at the time that maybe I should get some more.

30:07And so it was... But The Simpsons probably, as a phenomenon, didn't make much money, did it? That was my ironic remark. When I was in Italy one year, like the second year in, and I saw like, you know, a bagno, a burro bambini, you know, like Simpsons bath foam. And I said to Alan, I think it's doing pretty well here. No, it's made a heck of a lot of money. So you get a piece of that? A little piece of it. A small piece of that is still quite a tidy little sum. It saves me from having to do pantomime at the theatre, Louis, or I don't know. It's, you know, it's nice to have. Do you know that you're listed?

30:47I think on Wikipedia is one of the wealthiest something or others in the world. Oh, for goodness sake. I don't know what it is. 75 million, they say. That's probably a bit low. Terribly vulgar. That's ridiculous. Terribly vulgar. That's ridiculous. I'm worth far more than that. Please. So do little checks come in or big checks from The Simpsons? Bits and bobs. Bits and bobs, Louis. I keep going. It's nice, you know. You've been on The Simpsons. Have they animated you? I haven't been on The Simpsons. You have? No. You look like somebody that should have been. You'd be so easy to animate. I think that's an insult.

31:25You started off in comedy. How did you feel when Adam Buxton and the other boat did a comedy show? That's the most inscrutable remark. Did you feel funny about them? About what? Them doing a comedy show. Did you feel a bit left behind at this point? Is this you turning the tables? Yeah, I'll try. Look at me, Tracy Omer turns the tables on Louis Theroux. So what I was going to say was, though, going to America for me was quite a liberating thing. And as a half American, I felt like there was a lack of judgment and a feeling that I felt there was a lifting of a sense of self-consciousness and that I could – and the culture is so weird that there was stuff to get your teeth into.

32:00Yeah. It does make you lose your inhibitions a bit. Is that what it is? Yeah. I love the optimism and then our little pessimism and sort of like self-depreciation and humor of being humble goes a long way. It's a good mix. But there's also this thing where in LA in particular, that self-deprecating attitude of, oh, I'm working on something. It's probably going to be shit. Well, English. That's in English. Yeah, yeah. We had a run through and no one laughed. And in America, in LA, they find that quite confusing. Yes. They look worried. Yeah. They're like, oh, okay. Well, you know, maybe you could do a rewrite.

32:35You're like, no, no. You know, you're supposed to just laugh. I'm just making myself small so that you don't feel threatened by you. And instead of which they feel like, oh, no, it's almost like a contagion. I hope I don't catch your failure from you. Do you know what I mean? I know. Yeah, and you think what's the point of saying that? I know it's like when, you know, I had success then, they go, this is great. It's so great. You're so great, you know. And in England, they'd be like, how did you manage this? You know, I think envy is our biggest export sometimes here. and it's like, but then it keeps you, you know, humble and all that stuff.

33:09But I know I love the American enthusiasm, but they're just as sarcastic as us really and it just takes them a while to be meaner about people than it does with us. Yeah. You know.

33:46Hi, I'm Louis Theroux and you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now, back to my conversation with Tracy Allman.

33:59So, okay, we're going to wade into the culture wars now, so strap in. So some of the sketches, looking back, are clearly sailing close to the wind in a way that certainly nowadays probably would be questioned. And, you know, you've always been about characterization, observation, almost in an Alan Bennett way. Does that resonate with you? Like that feeling of like you could be doing like mini plays, characters with backstories and inner lives, as much as about the comedy, like all really great comedy. It's sort of also about the tragedy, right? Yes. The poignancy and the sadness of people I like, yeah.

34:35And in there as well, how do I put this? Occasionally you take on what would be called, I suppose, transracial. I just didn't make that up, but I've thrown that word in there. Everybody. I wanted to be everybody. I was like... You played No Nang Ning, a donut store owner, Shanisha Turner, an airport security worker, and Chick or Chico. Is that right? Chick, yeah. Indeterminate Middle Eastern cab driver. I was going to a cab in New York once in this late Middle Eastern guy. Hey, you like sex? just straight up there little you went uh ah woof you know and he pointed to his uh he said this is my love cabinet his you know the compartment in the car i thought oh god i want to be that guy you know i saw i could do anything you know i had this amazing makeup department i'd dress up i i put all this hair or like all of my arms and my i was like for chick i was like it was the itchiest craziest character i've ever done and i would be at four in the morning in a gas station in downtown in LA shooting this stuff and I thought I was somebody else you know I used to get high from becoming other people and enveloping myself in these makeups and stuff and it was fascinating it's what everyone was doing 30 years ago you know and you just it just I wanted to be everybody it was really interesting when you were playing Shanisha Turner say playing a black character at that time would that have felt you know nowadays no you wouldn't do it now you wouldn't do did it feel like a dangerous or a big step i just felt fun and i was with other black actors and i think i did it because eddie murphy had just been a white woman and you know it was like it was so much going on and you could just do it and it was done with energy and interest and love and you know love of people and and you wouldn't do it now and it was you know there's this historical nuance but it didn't feel like a live wire at that time didn't feel like a live at that time, no.

36:25I think the Asian character, Ning... Yeah, I mean, if I... No Nang-Ning. And now you look back and you think, oh, somebody saw that and was hurt or felt that you feel terrible about it. But there was pushback at the time about that one, I think. Was there? There were some protests. Yeah. Which, I mean... Well, they probably were right. It was the wrong thing to do and I apologise. And it was in the past now and I feel bad about it and what can you do? It's like, then it seemed fun and, you know, people do things all the time and then, you know, now it's like we're living through this culture Everyone's just to be awash with shame for what they ever did or thought.

36:56And I think we're going through a big, big questioning period, as we should. But no, it's not something I would do today. These things are constantly being revisited and rethought and tastes change. And it's very easy to look back and poke holes and be, whether it's wise after the event or to apply cultural standards that perhaps are now. It's really hard. You perceive things differently in different eras. Watching you do the two Jimmy Savills is fascinating because you saw him as somebody totally different. When you first did it, you were taken in by that now-then-now-then guy. Does Jimmy Savill come into the room suddenly?

37:34He does always. And I remember showing him, a clip of him to my writing friends in America. They went, God, that guy's weird. Why did you show him? I don't remember. I just remember showing them Jimmy Savills before the big thing. They thought he was so strange. that England would like somebody like that. And I went, what's wrong? That's Jimmy Savile. But, you know, you saw, look how your perception of him changed. That shifted, didn't it? Did your son say to you, like, if he gives you a hard time... You know what to do, Tracey? If you get stuck on the whole what you did 30 years ago, if that comes up, come right back at him with Jimmy Savile.

38:11Just look at him. He'll scratch his head and then come back at him with the Jimmy Savile because everybody's got their shit from the past that they're dealing with, Louis. It's like shit from your past. There's things that you thought were different back then that you just look at now and go, oh! Well, I always thought he was weird. We all have this. The reason I made the first documentary was because I thought he was so weird, right? It wasn't because... Oh, I know, but you... Oh, he seems like a nice man. People were playing along with him and doing that. Oh, Jimmy's fun, you know? No, I wasn't.

38:37A little bit. No, I wasn't. But I love the second one. You know, when you realise... I appreciate that. I appreciate it. I deserve to have my feet held to the fire. No, you were great with everyone. And actually, you know, it's quite a hard-headed piece of work. but that's me reviewing my own. I remember him when I was at Top of the Pops. I was there, Top of the Pops, Noel Edmonds, Dave Lee Travis. So you actually knew him? I met him, no. I just remember those days, you know. I'd be hanging out with U2 and Bandar Ballet and Duran Duran. What did you make of Jimmy Savile? Jimmy Savile, he was just, you know, that was a national treasure kind of thing back then, wasn't it?

39:09I don't think he was ever quite a national treasure. No, but he was... But he was regarded as an institution and someone who, oh, he does a lot for charity, but he's a bit weird and there's some stories, but... Steve Coogan is doing an amazing job in this series about him. Have you watched it? Steve Coogan is a genius. He's a brilliant actor and he's just brilliant. Me and my son send each other Alan Partridge mims every day. You know, he's a genius. So, anyway. Did you say mims? What do you call them, mems? I don't know. I think you said mims. Did I say a mim? I don't know. I'm silly. What's the word?

39:40I don't know. I'm someone's grandmother now, Louis. What is the word? I get told off because I don't remember passwords for Netflix, for flipping Disney +, for the flipping shows. I've got Elijah having a go at me. I've got you having a go at me about my past year. I've got my grandson at home telling me. Do you know what he said to me the other day? He said, why don't you remember the password for the Disney thing? And I said, I'm trying to do it, Elijah. And he went, I don't think you've got the expertise. You're someone four years old. I go, oh, give me a break. I remember when they came out with a$2 word, like, unexpectedly.

40:13That's lovely. You haven't got the expertise. Memes. I think the word is memes. Memes, yeah. I don't say mims, memes. But Steve Coogan's brilliant. Who else do you like? Dave Chappelle. He's telling the truth out there for me now. I go see Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock at the O2 and it's like an evangelical meeting for me. I'm just like, thank God someone's saying this. Do you? Yes, I do. I'm glad to hear you. I love him. He calls me a gilf, Dave. Which is a... Grandmother I'd like to fuck. He called me that once. And do you know what that means to someone like me when you've got your grandson picking on you and you're coming in to see Louis Theroux talking about shit from the past?

40:55It helps. Of course it does. God, I'm really kicking off now, aren't I? I could be a gilf. A grandfather? Actually, I'm not actually a grandfather. I'm at 53. Oh, you're going to love this grandfather stuff. It's figurative. It's really nice. You're nowhere near it. But Dave Chappelle. Love Dave Chappelle. Love Chris Rock. considered quite controversial now but he's talking because he's trying to talk through stuff it wasn't easy for Lenny Bruce in the 60s go Google that guy you know it's you're trying to say something different you're trying to be honest out there you're going to get criticism you know you're going to have to answer back for it but he does an amazing job he really really makes me laugh so with Dave Chappelle some of the trans stuff is what he's got in trouble for yeah thoughts well you know to comment you've got to listen to the whole thing and his whole take on it and he's talking about you know Dave Chappelle had one of the first trans stand-up comedians, a guy, very sadly, who's now no longer with us.

41:50He took him out on tour with him. I mean, he has no... It's a very complex issue, and people take offence and talk about it, and it's an ongoing conversation. But he just wants to... He loves people, and he wants to be funny, and he wants to comment on things around him, and he has a right to. What about Little Britain? You know, I think that was a brilliant show in its day. We all did. We loved it. And now poor Matt and David, who were bloody brilliant in it, they take the crap for it because it got taken off by the BBC. It makes them look bad. Everyone at the BBC was loving that show and everyone the writers loved it and everyone loved it and the public loved it.

42:26So, you know, historical nuance again. You wouldn't do it today. But, you know, it makes them look bad and they shouldn't at all. They did a fantastic job. And mind you, they've both got good careers and on they go, on you go. But that was something. When they pulled the episode of the Germans from the Fawlty Towers, That's when it got a bit absurd. I think that's when everyone went, actually, I think it got a bit absurd. Well, because the Major, one of the characters, whose whole character was that he was kind of a regressive, Colonel Blimpish, out-of-touch old geezer. Yeah. And he dropped the N-bomb, I believe.

42:57So that was why they took it down. Yeah. So I think the defense, which I think is reasonable, is that he was a racist character. It wasn't endorsing those views. And where there were people like that around then, talking like that, you know. Little Britain and Come Fly With Me, do you know if they're back up? I don't think so. I don't know. They tried to edit them and stuff. You could try and do that with the shows I did in the 90s. You could try and edit bits out that people are uncomfortable with. I wouldn't even want to try. Are there shows of yours that couldn't be shown now because of changing tastes?

43:25I don't know. I own them all and they're just not for sale anymore. That era is done. I don't know. Don't you want your work out there? I don't really think of it like that. No, I'm not very nostalgic. The best job I do will be my next one. I'm very forward thinking. I still have some things in me I really want to do. I want to be in a Judi Dench or Maggie Smith now. I want to be in that next era of character. I still want to be a character actress, Louis. I've done some fabulous, weird, brave, odd, controversial stuff. I've had a fabulous career. I had a fabulous marriage. I got to go places I never thought I'd ever go.

44:05And I've got two brilliant kids and I've got two brilliant grandsons. I don't look at the past and think oh I want that out there still you can still see it on YouTube there's the best bits are on YouTube there's loads of bits I'm looking forward to doing some great stuff before I leave the planet in 25 years well carefully steady we haven't got to the end I'm trying to wrap it up I'm trying to do a lovely wrap up that you can edit because you've already said we're going to cut that but don't cut no alright fine because okay that was a lovely wrap up we're not ending it oh Christ Stop it. Oh, bloody hell.

44:39Who's going to let me out of here? Can I dial back? I don't want to have a laugh. Can I dial back to the beginning? I do. I'm living to laugh, Louis. Of course. I love having a laugh. I mean, what's life for? Especially in the darkest times. And actually, I do think that the risk that we run with sensitivity over comedy is that you can't process aspects of the human experience, of cultural hot potatoes, if you can't make comedy out of them. No. That's the risk. It's a tough old world to be funny about right now. It really is. God, it seems like just crazy to me when I'm seeing people coming out of fashion shows on red carpets right now or posing at cameras and you're like, do you know there's a war on?

45:21This world is on fire. It's just a terrible time. You know, it's really rather scary. And all you're hearing about is climate change and war and, you know, breakdowns of society. It seems so trite to be here talking about what I did or something. You know, you just feel, wow, it just pales into insignificance. It seems crazy right now. Well, I was struck, though, that you also got, in certain respects, a left-wing anti-establishment iconoclastic sensibility, but you also have a sort of refreshing, I don't know, kind of freewheeling. You come at things from all sides. One of the funniest sketches I saw of yours, relatively recent, was about a woman going up for a job and she's got the job and then it turns out she's a Christian and then suddenly it's like the job's been revoked because they're like, oh, she seems so weird just because she's a Christian.

46:11Yeah, that was a good sketch. And then in general, you've said, there's a really interesting extended interview with you that you did with a university called Emerson, I think, somewhere in America. And you were talking about the liberal Hollywood bubble. You were talking about late night comedians all making fun of Trump, that it's boring. You said they need to get out into middle America and meet the Trump voters and understand them. Yeah. Well, you do. You go out into America and you really try and understand what's going on. Stop thinking about me. What about you? It's about you. You're very important, Louis.

46:39Oh, thank you. But do you think there's too much safe, on-side, liberal comedy? Yeah, everyone just sitting in those. And, you know, five years ago, it was just so white guy late night. I'm just so sick of it. I want some more girls in there. I think that era's kind of going now. I mean, because you couldn't beat Letterman. Letterman was the greatest. And then you've got just these same talking heads talking about Trump every night and doing the same kind of rhythms and standing in front of the windows. Even that naff guy that you interviewed, that alt-right guy, that he just laughs all the time and talks about, I don't want a lot of immigrants in my country because I love my guy.

47:13That stupid guy with the teeth and he's in front of a window. And it's exactly like Letterman from the 90s because he's picked up these TV things and he's using all these little things. He's a little asshole. He's just a little lost guy. What does he think is going to happen? Think that women are going to go, we're really sorry that we ever decided to go to work. Of course we'll go back into the house and have babies again. You're right. You know, they're just kidding themselves. But the way he's adopted those rhythms of a late-night talk show guy doing the things, just laughing about everything and pretending he's being ironic.

47:43You're referring to a documentary I made called Extreme and Online, part of the series. He's from Chicago, this guy. He's a young sort of incel. Yeah, he'll hear us talking about this now He'll just like do something on me, on his, maybe on his, you know. But there was just a sadness and an anger. And it's like, what do you think? People are just going to change and say, you were right. How could we possibly have the gall to say? I was teeing you up to say something about the liberal bubble. Yeah, there is a liberal bubble. Yeah, of course there is. So what should they be doing? I mean, is that why you like Dave Chappelle?

48:18Because it feels like he's actually just willing to aim his fire in any direction. Like he doesn't really... He does care. He does care. He's a good man. I don't mean he doesn't care as in like he doesn't care about society. I mean, he's not going to rein it in for the sake of those critics or those parts of the media establishment that take issue. Yeah, exactly.

48:43So, hello, ladies and gentlemen. You're joining us for the Louis Theron podcast. The older section. For anybody over 50, you might enjoy this show. somebody's on the show who talks about people like Dandy Nichols. It's the early bird special. Yeah. You know, I always assumed that you were Jewish, something people sometimes assume about me. It turns out you're not Jewish. You're half Polish, half British Roma. Is that right? I don't know. I've never done my DNA. I don't know. I'm a person. I don't know. I'll do a DNA test. Well, you know that your dad was Polish. Well, my dad came over from Poland.

49:21He died when I was six. I really don't know anything about his family. My mother was illegitimate on one side and Swedish something. Is the term Romani? Would you say gypsy or is that offensive? Well, she used to say we're gypsies, but I don't think we're Romani gypsies. I don't know. I'll do a DNA test. I don't know. Can you imagine me going on that bloody Who Do You Think You Are show? And then all the horrific, you know, crazy, alcoholic, nut and mean people in my family start coming up. I couldn't bear it. I don't ever talk about myself or my personal life. I hate it. Do you? Yeah. I don't take any pleasure in talking about who I am or what I do.

49:55Really? No, not really. All right, let me have a go. You're getting more out of me than, you know, but I knew this would happen. That's why I came into that. No, no, no. I think, by the way, you know, I'm not all about, like, let's get to the quivering jelly. You know what I mean? If I wrote a book about my take on Hollywood, who gives a shit? I give a shit. I give a shit. You've got a lot to say. Yeah, but, you know, so what? I see a lot of pain in you. Oh.

50:19So your dad died. It sounded horrendous. He was reading you a bedtime story when you were six years old and had a heart attack. He was taken off to hospital. Your family told you that he'd gone on holiday. Yeah, really covered the grief thing well with the kid. That's extraordinary. No, he's not dead. He's gone on holiday. And I thought, oh, he must be somewhere sitting by a pool with a, you know, and those drinks with a little umbrella in it. But that's how they handled grief in 1966. And gradually you think, like, when's he coming back? You're like, God, he's gone on a long holiday. It was ridiculous.

50:46I know he's dead. I know he's having a nice time. I was one of those very factual kids. I know he's dead. He died in front of me. Yes, it's, yeah, I missed him all my life. Wow, wouldn't it have been great to have a dad? That's nice. You know. He, I think, made a decent living. Yeah. Is he a solicitor? Yeah, he was. He was a lawyer. He was a translator. He came over during the war from Poland, and then he had a shop in Slough, and he used to put me on the counter in his shop, and he used to make me sing a little Polish folk song in front of his customers. That's what I remember. And I used to stand on the Zoszale Gorale, and I used to sing it, and he's going to say, Tracy, she's going to be a star.

51:23That's all I remember about my dad. Wow. Well, damn it. And then he went on holiday for six weeks. No. So you have very small memories. You know, I remember his voice, I remember the things about him, yeah. But that makes you tough as a girl. You lose a parent and you, on you go, you know, it's not easy. And am I right that part of this was also dealing with the financial upshot of his dying, which meant yeah he was he would he was you know made money and we went to private schools and things I remember and then I remember just being you know taken out of school and put somewhere else and having to be the new kid in a little state school and just be you know and then my weapon against it all became being in the school shows you know suddenly I was in the school show and I could be the star of the school show and I had a nice teacher that and then a really really nice teacher when I was 12 and Mr Harding Ronald Harding Stepgates Junior School said um you're very, very good in these school shows and, you know, getting a lot of impact on all the other children.

52:22And I think you should go to a stage school, a special school. I thought, what does he mean? And he helped me get a scholarship to the Italia Conti Stage School, which was back then, it was just a lovely thing for me to be able to do. Go to London every day and learn to sing, dance and act and met some fabulous friends and had a laugh. I was very naughty at school, but it was a lovely, lovely thing that he did for me. And it's true that you meet a couple of teachers in your life that really help you. And then when I was doing the Tracey Olman show, cut to, in the Fox show in the 80s, he was traveling around California with a group of educators and he came to see my show and said, Ronald Harding is here, I'm your headmaster.

53:02And I went, oh my goodness, Mr. Harding. And I brought him onto the stage after the show when I used to say goodnight to everybody in my bathrobe. And on camera, and you know, this wonderful man in polished brogues and a Harris Tweed suit, Mr Harding who I was sort of terrified of at school and I got to thank him on television in America and say thank you Mr Harding for just spotting that all those years ago and he was so shy and so English he went oh dear you know like this and you know he was so complete I was hugging him and thanking him and just really appreciated it and it was lovely that I got to come full circle and say thank you to Mr Harding Did you feel like an outsider at school?

53:42Yeah, I thought it was very awkward. And I felt the whole stage school thing was just ridiculous. Some of the kids there were like, well, I've been in a Barbie commercial and a McLinty's commercial and I'm going to be a star. And I thought, what do you mean? You know, there was me, awkward little girl that looked like a troll in black tights. You know, I thought, is that what being a star is? Or just being blonde? But then I started doing voices and doing improvisations and writing sketches at school. and then I realised the power I had in words and in comedy and I thought, ah, they can't do that.

54:16And I'd get sent along to stupid auditions with loads of the little girls that had been in the comedy commercials and they'd line us up on the stage for a West End musical and they'd say things like, you step forward and you step forward. And I remember once I thought someone pointed to me and I stepped forward and he went, no, no, not you, dear, the little blonde girl next to you. And I thought, oh, this is painful. It's crazy how we remember those things in our whole lives. You bastard. Let it go. That's horrible. Let it go. I know. Look, where is she now? Exactly. Where is she now? Her name is Kim Basinger.

54:48Yeah. Actually, that wouldn't work. I could have worked as a joke if I thought of someone who is still super successful. Who paid for your scholarship? I guess the county council. The Labour County Council. Labour County Council. Thank you, Labour County Council, for paying for my scholarship. I wonder if they'd do that now. No, I don't know. and I think well there's the Brit school now there's I mean there's many schools that really help talented kids and potentially talented kids you know there's things like that now although there's academies and Paul McCartney's got some votes in Liverpool yeah LIPA Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts there was a point where your mum remarried I think you had a difficult time with the stepfather yeah it didn't go great well that's you know it's hard it's hard to integrate families and so yeah it wasn't great But, you know, she tried.

55:38It was up to her. She wanted to... He was a difficult man. I don't, you know, it was a difficult marriage. I don't really know. I mean, it was, I just, I was off up to Clapham in my tap shoes by that point, living with my Auntie Brenda. Really? Who was fantastic. You'd moved out. He used to put me on tables in a pub and make me sing. You know, I was looking for a laugh, Louis. I was looking to get out. I thought, there's something great out there. And when I was 16, I went to Berlin. So I got out. When you were 16. I always knew there was something going on that was going to be better out there and more fun and light-hearted.

56:07And then I met Alan McKeown when I was 21 and my life really began. You don't like staying in the dark places. Well, why would I do that in public? It's awful. No, you've had fun from that. I had my moments. My mum had these half-brothers who had these hilarious friends called Butch Castle and David James who we used to go to Benidorm with on holidays. I used to laugh so much. I used to wet myself every day. I mean, I love laughing. I love guys making them laugh. Were they the ones who said she looks like a troll? Yeah, they were just so mean to me, exactly. They said, look at her, she's not a troll.

56:44And my sister Patty is a really, really pretty, beautiful girl. They go, Patty's gorgeous, isn't she? Trace looks like a troll. And then when they saw me again when I was older and quite successful, they went, you've done all right, you're still all like a fucking troll. It didn't feel hurtful at all. No, I love it, it makes me laugh. That's Bantz, isn't it? You can get in trouble for bants nowadays. They would never call it bants. No. No. They call it reality. Gosh, I'm getting so old. Stop it. What, older? Like 63 in new money is like decimal. 63 in new pence is like 45 in old money. Keeping fit, I get into cold water every morning.

57:24You look great, by the way. I don't eat after six. You look amazing. Do I? Yeah. I wouldn't say you're a gilf because that would be weird. No, it's like, calm down. I can't get away with that. What's your regimen? I've never eaten a processed food in my life. My mother never allowed me sugar. I've never done drugs. I've never even seen cocaine. Smoked a spliff? Yeah, I've done that. But I've never even seen cocaine. It was so weird. I've lived in Hollywood and I've been in music business. I just like veginine paracetamol with a splash of codeine. That's the naughtiest thing I do. Seriously? Yeah.

57:57What are you doing for fun at the moment? I love all new music. What music do you like? I keep up on things. I went to see Marina Abramovich in the Callous musical opera the other night. So what I do, I get out and about a bit. I've got some really good friends. What would inhibit you from finding a fella? I don't know. I don't know. I've had a fella. I had the best bloke. I had a best bloke. It's really hard to find anyone like Alan McEwen. He's hilarious, Louis. You have no idea. My husband was the best bloke. He was a grown-up. A lot of you blokes, you're not grown-ups. You know, and most blokes, they're just so neurotic and they're not as great as women.

58:34But he was great because... He was just for me. He was just, I'm not, you know, I'm not a coquette. I can't charm people and stuff. He was just great for me. You meet that person in your life. You know, I've had my moment. I am elevated by solitude. I cannot tell you how much I like being on my own. It's terrible. I just really enjoy it. Thank God. I mean, you know, I've been a widow for 10 years now, Louis. I mean, it's like, imagine me going on a dating service. The only people that put my age, women, in their profiles would be 117. That's my theory. You guys, you always go younger. You're not out there dating?

59:10No, please. What? No, I don't think so. Why not? What? Where am I going to go? What, you're going to go to a nightclub and meet someone in elasticated waist jeans? It's a whole new world out there. If I can find someone like Thierry Henry. You're only 10 years older than me and I'm a young man. It's not that funny. You're funny. If it happened again, I'd be lovely. I'm just not, you know. It has to be a footballer. Let's see. Wouldn't it be great? Wouldn't that be a footballer? I like football. I like musicians. So anyone who plays lead guitar, I'm not. Seriously? Yeah. Well, what can you do? Birds like musicians.

59:44I like funny blokes. Really? Yeah. I want someone that gets up every day, takes charge and goes, this is going to be great. Positive. Yeah. I've grown up. So he's grown up, takes charge, which plays lead guitar and plays football to a very high standard. Very funny. And funny. Yeah, funny fit. And a big... What? Guitar. Yeah. Don't talk that bit up. That was funny. No, it was funny. It sort of worked and I went with it. We were both thinking Willie and we didn't say it.

1:00:45Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you, you're listening to the Louis Theroux podcast. And now, back to my conversation with Tracy Almond.

1:00:59Okay, I'm feeling a leaving, ending energy. But before we do that, why did you come back to London? And when did that happen? That happened, what? When Alan died. Ten years ago? Yeah, Alan died ten years ago. Cancer? Prostate cancer? Yeah, prostate cancer. He'd had it for years and years and years. Yeah, and his treatment was in Los Angeles. And I didn't want to be a widow in LA, live up a hillside. Why? It's easier to, it was much more fun to be in England and move around and talk to people on the street. You're more in the swim of the activity. Oh, yeah, you have to, like, yeah. And I love LA and it was all that, but I just, no, it was time to be near my daughter, love living here, and then she had a baby and I'm near the grandsons.

1:01:39It's great to, yeah, you can't beat it. So, and just walking around, you know, London was just fantastic, you know, and people would suddenly say to me on the show, who chose you on? I go, what would she be doing on the district line at 2.30 in the afternoon with a Sainsbury's bag? Of course not. Do you say that? Just to get them off your back sometimes. I've been guilty of saying, I wish. Aren't you a bloke off the... I kept it yesterday. Aren't you a bloke off the telly? Oh, I wish. Yeah, doing that, yeah. Two words and the conversation's over. Yeah, but no one recognises me or they do. Everyone's very kind to me and just like, oh, yeah, you're mad like my sister.

1:02:13Oh, thank you. So, no, it was... You bump into people in London. You don't really bump into people in LA very much. No, no, it was a different time and, yeah. I go back and I work on Curb Your Enthusiasm with Larry David, where I used to, that's the area I used to live in. And I love doing that show. Oh, my God. It's been such fun to go and do that for a couple of years. Is he fun to work with? Oh, he's a good bloke. He's secretly a really nice man. Yeah, I believe it. He's great. I've really loved working with him and Susie Essman and Richard Lewis. And so that's been great fun. And that's the way I would like to work.

1:02:48I'd love to do something, a show like that. just, I don't know, maybe in London or New York, but you just make everything up. TV. You say all the things that you want to say. TV. I love TV. I'm a TV person. I mean, I've never made a successful film, really. You don't need to see me bigger than a television size. Big screen. I don't know about that. You've been in a very critically, highly regarded Woody Allen film. Yeah, I did a couple of films with Woody. I did Small Time Crooks, and I did Bullets Over Broadway. I love working Woody. You played his wife. Yeah, yeah. You have never felt an obligation to speak out on the Woody subject.

1:03:26Not my business. None of my business. What do I know? I knew him in a professional capacity and I had the most wonderful time and all that family stuff and everything. I'm not sure what's going on, but it's not for me to comment. There seemed like a time when actors who worked with him were kind of queuing up to say, I wish I'd never made a film with him. No, really. Well, that's what they want to do. It's not what I want to do. All right. And then you also worked on... What are you laughing for? Well, because I'm trying to figure out how... Yeah, you're trying to end this big. How can we end this big?

1:03:57I think we sing or something. You also started one of the biggest movies... Why don't we sing They Don't Know? Get the lyrics on your little computer there, your tip, tip, tapping away. You also started one of the biggest movie flops of all time. What was that one? I'll Do Anything. There's been tons of those. I'll Do Anything. Oh, yeah. I didn't star in it. I'd have bitten it. James L. Brooks. Because they took all the songs out. It was a musical. I got to meet Prince, though. He wrote the music for it. Yeah, he gave him all these songs, and none of the songs worked. I don't know. It was like, but people in it couldn't sing.

1:04:27Set it up for us. Set it up for the audience. Coming off the back of two huge hits, James Earl Brooks. He played Terms of Endearment and the equally brilliant broadcast news. He wants to do a musical, because he used to love all the songs we did on the train. I'll do a musical. It's about life in Hollywood for a jobbing actor. The heroism, the daily struggle of a jobbing actor. And you get Nick Nolte to start, who was hilarious. He's brilliant. But he can't sing. He had this song called, Be My Mirror, Be Like Me. And then Nick's going, Be my mirror, be like me. But, you know, what are you going to do?

1:05:03You're well-intentioned. Polly Platt was our producer. We, you know, James gives it everything. Wow, man, we're going to do this, man. And then things don't work. Well, you know, you just, you know, I don't know. They had a viewing. Some people want to put the songs back in. I had a good song. I'd like to hear it with the songs in. I went to see it when it came out. I lived in New York at the time. And I was a James L. Brooks fan. And I thought the movie was pretty good. Nick Nolte's a terrific actor. Oh, Nick is fabulous. And then I was reading up on this. And it was said that they had a screening.

1:05:33And it was so bad. It was that the people were, first they were enjoying it. Then they were not enjoying it. Then they were laughing at how bad it was. And then they were leaving the testing theater on the lot over there in LA. and then James L. Brooks said it was the worst experience of his entire life. Oh, darling. And I think it would have been crushing. But a strange decision to take all that. How bad could it have been with the songs? I know. I never saw them. I mean, I just saw... Did it feel all right when you were me? I saw... Julie had a song and I got to meet Prince, you know. That was cool.

1:06:04What was he like? He was cool. I mean, just very quiet, yeah. And, you know, he knew my song, but I don't know. and just that he knew who I was. Did he? It was just an amazing thing. Come on. It's a good song. It was a top ten hit in America. People always remember this. Sorry, I sounded surprised. That was rude. Yeah, of course he knew that song. It was a big hit. And actually, sort of, he likes that kind of bubblegum girl group. Maybe I'm not doing it justice, but there's... No, he knew a good song. He wrote Manic Monday, right? Yeah, he did. For the Bangles, wasn't it? Yeah, the Bangles, yeah.

1:06:32And it's very... You know, he was an R &B soul legend, but also a creator of sugary pop of the highest order. I see him in a small club in East Berlin when I did the MTV Awards in the 90s and I was with Michael Hutchence, Jean-Paul Gaultier and George Michael. I was with them in a limo and we went to this weird little club in East Berlin. The wall had just come down. And they made me jump over a fence to get in because even that group couldn't get in. And we got into this club when there was like literally 47 people and we watched Prince and Mighty, his girlfriend at the time. And later wife. Later wife.

1:07:10perform and it was just amazing. I just thought, wow, I'm so, so lucky to be here. What a cool moment. What a cool moment. That's incredible. God, it was good. I think that's where we're going to leave, Tracy. Yeah, I've had some laughs. I've had some moments. Watching Prince with a veritable constellation of incredible talents. Nice to have all those amazing memories. I know. I was in that group that night. I know. No wonder that you... I'm a girl from Hackbridge. I used to live next to a fish and chip shop and a sewer works. Interesting smell combination. They're trying to imagine that. Oh, goodness, yeah.

1:07:48Sort of like alternatively like... It was, it was bloody awful. Deep fat frying plus faecal overtones. It really was. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. Oh, I've had a nice time. I mean, yeah, I really wanted to meet you. I think you're a good bloke. I think you're a BGB. You're a bloody good bloke. You're interesting. And I don't want to talk about myself, but my kids wanted me to talk to you, and I'm glad I have.

1:08:31So, I hope you enjoyed that. This is me back on my own. It was a real pleasure to speak to Tracy and also to revisit and visit in some cases for the first time her vast body of work. We'll link to the clips we spoke about in the show notes. In particular, I'd like to shout out the TV series Mrs. America about Phyllis Schlafly, played by Cate Blanchett. it's about the conservative activist and the early days of feminism and Tracy it's an ensemble but Tracy's in it playing Betty Friedan and yeah it's really good I think it's on iPlayer what I got from Tracy was well she's just really funny isn't she and there's nothing quite like being in the room with someone who's effortlessly amusing I really loved her impression of her grandson Elijah saying I don't think you've got the expertise um that made me giggle and I see I mean I also like I mean I'm a horrible person so I quite liked sort of bringing up quite dark things in an inappropriately light-hearted way should I say that and when I said do I see sadness in you I think I do see some sadness in her well of course because she lost the love of her life and Thierry Henry is out there but perhaps not available um she's a born entertainer cliche alert and you know she was basically driving the conversational bus at the beginning which I enjoy I enjoy being driven for a change and then also kind of turning the tables you know nothing that's my favorite thing is having the tables turned on me the rains being kind of fought over it's like is it hunt for red october where there's two submarine captains and one of them says i'm the captain then the other one's like i don't know i'm the captain you remember that that was a good movie so we both were captains of the submarine kind of fight not fighting over the controls but enjoyably maybe sort of roughhousing over the controls and she brought up jimmy savile and that's not funny and the nick nolte impression be my mirror be my gal um nick nolte is probably listening and so nick i think you'll appreciate it was done with love and um perhaps you know accuracy i don't know will the world ever get to hear nick Nolte singing Be My Mirror.

1:11:09I don't know. Strange. For Prince Aficionados, those songs are, I think I said it in the chat, did I? They're on YouTube. You can listen to them. We mentioned the Steve Coogan drama BBC's The Reckoning in which Coogan plays Jimmy Savile. I've watched three episodes of that as I record and Steve's amazing in it. And actually, you know, if you have the stomach for that kind of thing, it's done with extraordinary, I would say, kind of verisimilitude, like the accuracy, the work they've put into. Here's flipping Penthouse Flat in Roundhay, where I went a number of times while filming and afterwards.

1:11:48For more on that, read my book, Gotta Get Through This, five chapters about Jimmy Savile. But it was extraordinary. Like some person had studied pictures and film of the flat and reproduced it. I'm still trying to figure out the comment, you'd be so easy to animate. That made me laugh when I listened to it back. What does that mean? It's such a baffling remark. It feels, it's like a compliment that you could take as an insult. I'm going to assume, not an insult. Tracy would never insult me. I like her too much. What I'm trying to say is, I wouldn't take it as an insult. I think it was meant nicely.

1:12:28And you know, who wants to be difficult to animate. That's not something to aspire to. Maybe it means I'm expressive. I wish I could be animated on The Simpsons. I could die happy. That would be the last thing. I don't need Oscars and Grammys and Olivier's, but to be on The Simpsons. I've got a friend who writes for The Simpsons. So, Tim, if you're listening, consider this me inviting myself onto the show. I'm ready. I think that might be it. Oh yes, credits. Produced by Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Marne Al-Yaziri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows.

1:13:10The music in the series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

1:13:26Thank you.