S2 EP7: Germaine Greer on her three-week long marriage, flirting with George Best, and her controversial views on gender and the MeToo movement.

34:37the idea is that young men are confused and young men don't know how they fit into the world. And the idea of toxic masculinity, which, you know, obviously is deplored appropriately, but that it leaves them with no positive idea of what it means to be a man. And so people like Andrew Tate step into the gap and fill their heads with these kind of very outdated notions of what manhood is. So I suppose I'm just, since you haven't heard of him, it's maybe a moot point, But do you recognize that as an issue in the culture at all? Have you noticed that there's this sort of resurgent, almost revanchist men's rights activism?

35:16yes I think I do recognize that but I watch men a lot because I wish women could learn some of the things they know how to do and one of the things they know how to do is to be clubbable to be together as an undemanding group who give each other support by meaningless activities like obscene jokes or playing barbillards or whatever. And I wish women could learn that a bit more because they tend to be demanding of friendships. Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. Whereas sometimes the real secret is to tell me less, tell me less, tell me less. Take care of me, make me laugh, tell me a joke.

36:03Let's run a sweepstake. All those things men do. Oh, hang on, my coffee's coming in. It's a good time for a sip of wine if you're thinking of having one. Goody. I'm not instructing you to consider. I've already had several, but you didn't see. It must be piped in in a way that I can't see. In contemporary academic discourse, gender is seen very much as a construct, I think. There's a view that, I don't know if it's still fashionable, it definitely used to be that there's no essential differences between men and women. and everything is a result of kind of acculturation and conditioning. Is that your view, or do you think men and women are fundamentally different?

36:47This is a bit hard, this question, I think, because there are some things about being a woman that do not transfer. You might think that you've got the wrong body, but you can't really have the wrong body. I mean, I've tried very hard not to talk on this issue because I realise that there's a whole body of thought now which wants to erect gender into something which is given to the person. Whereas in my mind, you're born with a sex, you can't opt out of it. and when you come into maturity, sexual maturity, it will be brought home to you. I mean, menstruation is no fun. You don't really terribly want to do it but you do it because you don't have very much choice.

37:40And if you don't do it, you get nervous because something's gone wrong. And I think there you are inventing manhood as a gender, an imaginary thing, a construct, and on the other hand, you've got this sex thing that is going to grab you it'll grab you at certain stages in your life it will grab you when you get diseases that are connected to your genes and your construction and you realize that sex is going to be there and to me it's really important that our earth is populated because of sexual reproduction so my feeling about I don't say anything in the discourse because I'm listening to what the people who are inventing it now and building it now are saying about it.

38:31But I don't want to intervene. I think being 80, how old am I, 84? The time I shut up is my feeling. I mean, there's a lot of different things to think about in what you just said. I mean, I do think it's worth reflecting that your views on the trans issue have been extremely controversial and I guess I could say divisive and that for some people me even speaking to you would be a derelict. Yeah but I didn't even I didn't utter them though I didn't utter them I'm told I'm transphobic I didn't say I was transphobic I'm perfectly happy to accept people who think they're transgender I can't see why you wouldn't say you were transgender if you felt it, but it's a matter of feeling it rather than it being a condition of human reproduction.

39:25It isn't. I think the quote that gets recycled a lot is in 2015, you said, just because you lop off your penis and wear a dress doesn't make you a fucking woman. That got you into hot water. Who says I said that? I don't recall. It was in 2015 to Rebecca Root, a trans comedian. It wasn't perhaps a considered opinion. I've never met Rebecca Root. I don't think I ever said that. You won't find it in my papers anywhere. They're all at Melbourne University if you want to look, but I don't think I said that. There must have been a context, supposing I did say it, but I don't recall the context either.

40:04I think, I mean, there was a time when I used to say to my workers in the rainforest that we needed to be more Aboriginal and they would say to me they thought they were quite Aboriginal enough, thank you very much. And then so we had to discover could we be Aboriginal, could we put up our hands. Self-identifying is supposed to be the name of the game. So we are self-identifying. I'm Aboriginal. Oh, no, you're not. because one of the things you think you have is the right to your appellation, the right to the thing you are. And if somebody tells you that you're not English or not human or you're going to say, yes, I am, if you do identify that way.

40:59But it's too complicated. This self-identifying thing, half of us are misled about our identity. It's a really evanescent thing, your identity. When you get old, believe me, your identity changes big time. When you turn into the person nobody listens to and you have to learn it and it's hard. And then you have to find ways of getting people to let you get your view out, your statement finished. And if they've already decided you're as mad as a meat axe, it won't do, it won't happen. I mean, I suppose there's a division in the culture now that it's seen that the left is maybe more censorious and less tolerant of dissenting opinions and more opposed to free speech.

41:49I mean, you yourself were, well, you weren't, I don't know if the term would be no platform, but you were invited to speak at Cardiff University. That's right, isn't it? and then there was a small protest or some people decided that you shouldn't come, that it was because of your views. But the university didn't let it happen. There was a small group of people who had posters, I think, and when it came to the point of not allowing me to speak, the university cleared the protesters away and I spoke. But I'm on their side. If they want me to be shut up, then fine, go for it. I don't think anyone's got a God-given right to speak.

42:33That sort of thing doesn't worry me terribly. I mean, you can always speak somewhere else. You've always got another place to make a noise. It doesn't frighten me terribly. I expect students to rebel. I expect them to object. and I expect as a teacher to have to play my corner, to actually have to deal with them and not dismiss them. Probably an unsatisfactory answer, but it doesn't worry me, this notion that people will shout me down, shout away. Well, that sounds like a healthy attitude. So basically, you mentioned your age, 84, so I can say it and hopefully that's not rude. What preoccupies you?

43:25Yeah, but why would you think it was? I don't know. That's convention, isn't it? I interviewed Joan Collins a few weeks ago and she didn't want me to say how old she was. But either way, I know that some older women and people, I think men are all right with it, don't like you to say their age. You must be aware of that, surely. Yeah, we're not worried about it at all. I was wondering if you asked Joan whether her husband was gay. What makes you say that? Just curiosity, really. Right. Best reason for asking a question. But why? I mean, perhaps I'm being a little bit puckish, but why would you think he might be gay?

44:03Well, anybody might be gay. Okay. You're not going to be pinned down on this. I think I know how your mind works, and you're thinking because she's 90 and he's 50-something, that why would a straight man be interested in a woman who is so much older? Is that what you're thinking? Not quite, no. I know lots of men who have been interested in women a lot older. I could include myself. Okay. What's the biggest age gap in any relationship that you've been in? I can't remember. You opened the door to that question, and I went through it. Yes, I realise that. I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't have. Let me see.

44:43I have to be careful now because they're all bloody dead.

45:05you

45:15Hi, I'm Louis Theroux and you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now, back to my conversation with Jermaine Greer.

45:27I should probably mention Me Too, having been such a big cultural moment. and I think you were a bit of a Me Too sceptic. Is that fair? I wasn't really a sceptic. I just kind of, I thought, oh, for Christ's sake, here we are. We've got victims of sexual assault. And then we've got a whole bunch of people saying Me Too, as if it was somebody to be proud of. Well, bugger that for luck. It isn't. And we should be better at fighting it off when it happens. I just don't like the idea of saying I too am a victim and you could argue when you're getting people when people are sexually molesting you how much have you got to do with the fact that you're in a situation in which you can be molested you know if you're in a hotel room in Hollywood where's the surprise when the man who's pouring the drinks tries to get it on none That sounds a bit like victim blaming.

46:34Oh, well, please don't think that because I know what it is to be a victim and I don't blame the victim, especially when the victim is young, especially when the victim is inexperienced or on-job experience or whatever. It's just the whole idea of I'm one, it happened to me. I'm going to invite you on to another controversial area because you wrote a book, well, a pamphlet really, called On Rape. And one of the things you've said is, I think you've sort of suggested that, forgive me if I'm misquoting, but the idea that rape isn't the worst thing that can happen to a woman, and that maybe it's been sort of freighted with too much kind of meaning, like it's made out to be worse than it is.

47:21Is that sort of what you've said more or less? And is there anything you want to expand on about that? I wouldn't say it like that. But what I would say is if you believe because you've had a pretty unsatisfactory episode of failed intimacy, if you believe that you're ruined, you are devalued, you are rubbish, you are to be jettisoned, then that's your problem, not the rape itself. Half the time when people have sex, one person thinks it's one thing and the other person thinks it's another. And I don't think you've got the right then to go racing down the street after them and shoot them because they were wrong.

48:08And when you tell me that the man who raped me when I was 19 should have gone to jail for 10 years, which is what the tariff was, I can't accept that at all. I mean, when it happened to me, I didn't even ask the man his name and I realise to this day I don't know what his name was. I don't want to go there if it's in any way painful. I don't really want to talk about it at length. It was rather funny. When I'd written a piece on rape for The Guardian, I got some snotty letters saying that I didn't know what rape was, that I was clearly ignorant, that I had said that it was this devastating blah-de-blah, et cetera, et cetera.

48:57And so then I wrote the article and said, well, you may not realise this, but I do know what rape is. And it was unpleasant. It was horrible that I didn't want to kill him. In fact, I was really worried that he was mad. I thought any man who thinks he can have intimacy with a woman like this is mad. and I wanted to help him because he kept saying, what did he say, help me, help me, help me. And as we're sending him to jail for 10 years, I would have been mortified if that had happened, utterly mortified. They never caught the man who did it. What, to me? Yes. I never complained. I was working as a housekeeper for some young men who had a flat in St Kilda Road and I was staggering in the street in shock and a car came and in the car was a man and a woman and I knew that I could ask them to help me.

50:03I kind of knew that if I asked a car full of rugby players to help me, it would have been a mistake. So I asked them and they took me back home and then the guys who took me to the party came home and then there It was a whole other story because they decided what to do about this bloke because they knew about him. They'd had problems to do with him for a long time. So they just told him that if he went to Torquay or to Hotham, they would kill him. And he believed them. I never saw him again. I would like to talk just for a minute, if we can, about your upbringing. You've written about it extensively, and in particular in your book, Daddy, We Hardly Knew You.

50:51Tell me a little bit about the household growing up. I know you had a couple of siblings. You've said that your mum could be quite brutal, that she hit you with a stick. Your dad was a sort of distant, enigmatic figure. He'd come back from war, kept to himself. I think he perhaps had relationships outside the home, maybe with his secretary. But what would you like to say about that that might shed light on people's understanding of you? Well, remember that this is not just my story. It's my sisters and my brothers and they're both around. I had a different time because my father was away at the war.

51:29My little sister was conceived when he came back, but it was a terrible time. I don't know what my mother had been up to. I was a child. I just didn't know. Other people would have told me, but I didn't ask them. She'd had a relationship with, was it with a soldier or what was it? She had some sort of relationship with someone we think, right? I don't know that she had a relationship with anybody. I certainly didn't see any such thing. I do remember that one night she made lobster Thermidor for someone and she gave me some before I was put to bed early and I vomited all night long. and she nearly lost me, which probably would have been a stroke of luck.

52:16But, I mean, she was different with my sister and different again with my brother, what's to say? And I ran away, started a lifetime career of being a bolter. Why did you run away? I was just sick of being victimised and kicked around. and there was a really terrible moment when I asked if I could have a banana and she said, they're for my children. So I went. I wasn't a child. It wasn't her child. I could go and I went. And I went and went and went and went and kept on going.

53:06She was young when she married my father and then there was a war. I mean, it was a big disappointment. Then he came back and I remember we went to Spencer Street to meet him and we couldn't recognise him. We went up and down the station looking in every face. and then we realised that an old man standing against a stanchion on the station was my mother's husband and she put him under her arm and took him home. And do you suppose they were happy people? As you were growing up, did they seem as though they loved one another? To what extent were they kind of imprisoned within gender norms that prevailed at the time and how all of that trickled down to you?

53:55So when Dad went to the office every day, he never worked an afternoon in his life. He would go to the CTA, the Commercial Travellers Association, and he was the principal referee for all the card games and he was the referee for, what's his name, the billiards player, Lindrum, Walter Lindrum. So that was pretty full at life. He had no complaints there. He went off every morning in his car, leaving mum at home without a car, of course, which was par for the course. I think she made his life pretty difficult. But I didn't make a judgment of that sort. I was a child. I don't think I could have done.

54:38He sold advertising space in the newspaper, is that right? Advertising manager, I think, was his title. and he mostly sold advertising space to the schmutter merchants on Flinders Lane. Tailors, do you mean? Schmutter's is Yiddish for rags. The rag trade, that's what it's called. And I believed that I was Jewish. Why did you believe you were Jewish? Because my father's mother was called Emma Rachel Wise and I thought, Rachel, wise, Jewish name, Jewish matriarch, here we go, I'm Jewish. And my ambition when I was little was not to be part of the Holocaust. I didn't want to be guilty. So I learnt Yiddish.

55:30I can still sing the Hatikvah. I joined the Habibah players. What is the Hatikvah? The Hatikvah.

55:43So I can still sing it, I just can't remember what it is. That's life for you. Who were your heroes? I mean, it was a suburban existence, and then you became obviously an eminent best-selling author and intellectual, but what was the launchpad for that? And what were you reading? What did you claim as your own? What pieces of culture spoke to you clearly and distinctly? Well, when I was 12, I read all of Dickens. I would sit on the train and read it and carry it with me everywhere until it was read and then get another one and another one and read them all. I mainly read whatever books I could get my hands on.

56:22We didn't have very many. In fact, we had all the free books given away by the Herald and Weekly Times. And Daddy would bring those all and stack them in the little walnut bookshelf about this high. That was our library. But then I had membership of the Brighton Public Library. I used to ride my bike there and get a book. And I used to always pick the book according to its mass. It had to be a big, fat book because it had to last. Then you went off to university. You fell in with a Bohemian set. Is that fair? And correct me if I'm wrong, you know, Clive James is there in the mix somewhere. Various glamorous, artistic and interesting people.

57:07And this would have been, what, the late 50s, early 60s? Did it feel as though you were part of a kind of an emerging cultural movement? First of all, I went to Melbourne University on a teacher's college scholarship. And then I had to go and teach. and then I realised I had to teach something called civics and I said, I can't teach that, it's nonsense. And I ran away. I did what I used to do, I ran away. But I didn't meet Clive James until I was in Sydney. And so then we were part of what would have been an anarchist cell, which I loved. What did it mean being an anarchist? Well, it meant, I'm finding it interesting at the moment because people are talking about authoritarian government.

58:04I was listening to a discussion of politics in Gaza, I think, about how the tendency now is towards authoritarianism. We existed to oppose authoritarianism, but however we were to be governed and marshaled and pushed about, it had to be rational rather than religious or even political in that sense. And we did read Bakunin and other anarchists from Russia. Did you? Mm-hmm. Do you still think of yourself as an anarchist? Well, I'm not in favour of people having power over other people for no good reason. But do I think of myself as an anarchist? Yeah, probably still a bit, still a bit. So how did you wind up at Cambridge and what was that like?

58:56I had a job at Sydney University and I made the application for a Commonwealth scholarship and got one. And so off I went to Cambridge. And when you were at Cambridge, one of the striking things was that you got involved in the comedy set and you were part of the Footlights. I was the first female member of the Footlights. I actually got into the Footlights by doing a skit based on a Barry Humphreys joke. which I never acknowledged. Wicked of me. What was the joke? It was about how you get an Australian accent and it involved an egg timer. I mean, an egg slicer, I should say. And it was quite funny.

59:40And was it Eric Idle that was part? I mean, a lot of the Monty Python people were there at that time, is that right? I wasn't the same time. They were a year before me. That was the next year. It was more of the goodies. Was it? I noticed Australia watches The Goodies. That makes me laugh. That's amazing. We haven't watched it in England for 40 years. Well, they still watch The Goodies in Australia to this day? Yeah, they're on every day, I think, yeah. I used to love The Goodies. And that makes me laugh. For our younger audience, we should explain who they were. It was Bill Oddie, Graham Gardner and Timbrook Taylor.

1:00:15They sort of played these sort of, well, it was almost like they were boys in men's bodies living together and getting into adventures. was that more or less what it was? Very Cambridge, very public school. And then you actually worked in TV comedy on a show called Nice Time, which you co-hosted with Kenny Everett, which is still up on YouTube for those who are curious. And it's quite funny, still holds up. It's never, is it? It's pretty funny in parts. I mean, like a lot of old television, the grammar is a bit weird and skits that might be funny at 20 or 30 seconds length seem to last forever but i mean people may not even remember kenny everett now but he was very famous throughout the 70s and 80s and he was gay and um he was again someone i used to love watching growing up were you aware that kenny was gay and were you conscious that that was might be difficult for him in that cultural setting in that society in that time not as long as it was show business Really?

1:01:18Just about everybody in show business was gay. He was pretty safe, I think. I knew him pretty well and I knew all about that and I knew who the boyfriend was and I was glad for him. Before he met the boyfriend, he married a woman who was a jazz singer. I didn't know that. But he had a few boyfriends who had an eye on the main chance. But I think we all did. I mean, I got all tangled up with George Best. That was pretty funny. In what way? What do you want me to say? Romantically. In a pretty obvious way. He was a good-looking man. I was very, I was down on him. He was a fucking good footballer as well.

1:02:03But, I mean, what happened there is that I used to ignore George. We all drank in the Brown Ball, which is a hotel near Granada. and the footballers would come after the game. And so one night I was there socking back the suds and he said to me, you don't fancy me, do you? I said, George, for Christ's sake, there's not a woman in this room who doesn't fancy you. What do you think I am? A monster, abnormal. Not that it made a difference. I did not immediately leap upon him or vice versa. So I thought you'd revealed that you had a fling with George Best and now it sounds like you're announcing that you did not have a fling with him.

1:02:52Is that what we're going with? I've never announced that I had a fling with George Best. No, I thought you said you got tangled up with him and I think I got two and two and made 16 out of it. Yep.

1:03:39The End I'm conscious of not taking up too much of your time. So maybe we should talk a little bit about just how you feel about feminism. I'm assuming that you still view yourself as a feminist. Going forward, do you sort of survey the picture and see other people who you think are carrying the torch in any way? Or you're not that interested? How do you see the scene at the moment? Well, let's see. It's really interesting to see in a place like our care, in aged care, what these older women are like. They have their own style, their own fashion, their own way of reacting. They're generally fairly fit, which I'm happy to see.

1:04:31It's still there, but what's going on at the moment, and I'm not sure if it's really going to take off is that feminism is beginning to reappear in the schedules of talks and so forth and it looks as if feminism is going to resist the attempt to turn it into single-sex marriage and sexual identity and so on that these are women who've lived their lives as well as they could have been independent, have been through the marriage mill, come out the other side, watching their daughters go through the same thing. And I'm really touched to see how many of the women in aged care here are visited all the time by their daughters.

1:05:22It is wonderful to see. So the last thing I do is think, you know, oh, I'm 84, and so now it's all over. It's not. But it is changing. There's a change coming and there's going to be a resistance to this peculiar sexless or sexological or whatever it is that's going on. I mean, the women are kind of taken aback by the noisiness of the transgender movement, by the staginess of it. And I mean, I think the one thing I said that got me a bit of immediate reaction, I said something about how seeing their version of womanhood, it strikes me as hostile and caricaturish. I'm going to push back on that, Jermaine, because I think that actually, you know, part of how female gender is expressed is caricaturish and hostile to women.

1:06:23I mean, you could make the argument that false eyelashes, Botox in the lips, plastic surgery all over the place, that that's not only is it not unique to people who are trans, but that actually that's kind of epidemic across the culture. You know, it's part of Instagram culture. Do you take the point that it's been sort of been over, whether it's because of capitalism or some other reason, to a great extent, we still live in that sort of slightly Stepford wives-esque culture? Well, it is very Stepford Wives-esque. I don't think that's spontaneous expression of womanhood. I think that's pretty peculiar stuff, really.

1:07:04I think it is actually a parody, a grotesque parody, and mainly driven by hostility. And part of the background of what we've been talking about all night is an enduring hostility to women so that even men who are very susceptible to this kind of gross parody will go for it, will react to it. Don't ask yourself what happens next. I'm going to throw a quote at you. Women have very little idea how much men hate them. Do you think that's still true? Yes, I do think it's still true. It's not so much that men hate them a lot. It's that all men hate all women some of the time. And if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, it can cost you your life.

1:08:03You don't really know what the suppressed rage with women is, but it's there. Well, I think we've arrived at a good point, suitably dark and troubling and uncompromising. I thought it might be funny if I tried to explain, if I mansplained feminism to you, that would have been a kind of a meta joke. Go on. No, I can't do it. Do it. Do it. It's not funny anymore. It's just human rights for women, isn't it? Is it equal rights for women? How would you define it? We should have started here. Well, feminism, in my notion, means identifying with women Can a man be a feminist? Yes, but they're not often They tend to think they are And they tend to feel as if they could take it over and do it better That's the next thing But feminism, as far as I'm concerned, is looking at every question that comes up From the point of view of what does this do for women?

1:09:09Does it do them ill or does it assist them in what is already a difficult life path to take? And what about this idea that feminism is obsolete? You know, you hear this quite a bit now that, oh, well, women are at the commanding heights of all the industries and whatnot. And actually, we don't really need it anymore. And in fact, by some metrics, men are killing themselves more, dying younger, more depressed, more anxious. and actually we need to be thinking about the men a bit more. Well, I could agree with all of that, except in my experience men think about themselves a lot. I could keep going for another three hours.

1:09:54That sounded almost like a double entendre. But I feel as though we kind of reached a good conclusion, which was to do with, you know, there's still work to do, really. And how are you doing, Germaine? I hope that was okay for you. I'm conscious it's not ideal in the sense that you're 5 ,000, 10 ,000, 10 ,000 miles away, but I really enjoyed the chat, and I feel very privileged that I got to talk to you, and maybe one day we can meet in the flesh. But until then, this will have to do. Well, I've enjoyed it. Thank you. Now I've got to go away and think about stuff that I haven't thought about for ages.

1:10:29Oh, have I dredged up a lot of stuff about Kenny Everett and George Best? Those were the fun bits Those were the fun bits Not objecting to them

1:10:56So there we are Jermaine Greer And I think you'll agree it was interesting and times maybe uh well i was going to say close to the line i probably a bit over the line in the sense that um i imagine there will be people who are offended there was content that was controversial and what was striking was that at one moment she said i'm going to stop talking about subjects to do with you know the trans community and that felt well i was thinking like yeah i think that's probably a good shout and then couldn't seem to help herself and and at times clearly that served her her willingness to be unafraid and to go straight to the subject that people don't want to speak about or don't want her to speak about and i understand that some people will be offended some listeners will be those aren't the positions of the podcast i think we have a podcast where we're open to having guests with whom we don't align in every respect.

1:12:01A clarification about Germaine's comment when she characterized the trans community. I said that she put it to Rebecca Root, a trans comedian. In fact, and Germaine said, I never said that. In fact, it seems Germaine never said it to Root. Sources do show it was put to Root as a statement from Jermaine by Victoria Derbyshire on her show. I mean, there's more that I could unpack. When I talk about WAP and the epithets wet ass applied to pussy, I think I've listened to it a couple of times. I think we're at loggerheads. I think she takes ass to mean the female genitalia. And the thing she says after that about, well, it's quite hard to get a wet ass sometimes and sometimes you don't want a wet ass.

1:12:56I think she's talking about female arousal. That's the best sense I could make of it because I can't think of many contexts in which people go around thinking like, oh, I wish I had a wet ass and I can't get one right now. Right? Is that making sense to you at home? Either way, maybe that's what I need. That was part of my journey fate had for me was that I needed to explain in cringe-making detail Megan Thee Stallion lyrics to an icon of second wave feminism. I deserved that. It was even more awkward than it sounded. A documentary exists, we can put this in the show notes, called Town Bloody Hall, where you can see Germaine very much in her pomp as a sort of statuesque and deeply impressive figure at this town hall event where feminism's being discussed with Norman Mailer, the American literary lion, and it all slightly kicks off, and there's various leading feminist figures all slightly talking at cross-purposes, and I think it's made by D.A.

1:14:01Pennebaker. And her appearances on some of these amazing old comedy shows, including the one with Kenny Everett, you can still find on YouTube, in which she acquits herself as a comedy professional. what else can we say like um you know she's an older woman she won't be with us forever you know it's been a kind of a cozy space the sort of the louis through podcast space like you know there's moments of grit and there's certainly we like to get into subjects that have some heft some seriousness some conflict i feel like this is a new bar for us i'd rather have this be more interesting and have more moments of grit, even at the risk of it feeling uncomfortable at times, rather than have everything kind of blanded out.

1:14:49Former podcast guest Nick Cave talks on this subject as well. I refer you to that episode. He didn't want everything put through a sieve of, what did he say? Ideological rectitude. It wasn't that, but everything blanded out. He doesn't sound like that, but I only have one Australian accent, and it's the one I have. You know, if we've got Australian fans, I probably shouldn't be doing a bad Australian accent. If you've been affected by sexual violence or any of the issues raised in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com slash resources. Credits produced by Millie Chu, The assistant producer was Mahn Al-Yaziri.

1:15:36The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.