S3 EP1: Mia Khalifa on living with autism, receiving death threats and her experience of the adult film industry

26:33That's how I came into it. And once I realized that this person is wrong for me, I realized that all of this is not me and very wrong for me. So it was more so just me realizing that this is not a good human being for me. I was in a relationship with a 24-year-old when I was 16 and my keenness to make them happy and do what they wanted is why I was in the industry and why I was in it for such a short amount of time. I left the industry and I left them at the same exact time, the same day, basically. It was just a slutty phase. It was just a phase with like a bad relationship. And unfortunately, it's there for the world to see, but it's also a great learning experience.

27:17It's not something that I see as like something that catapulted me. I mean, for two years afterwards, I tried to put it all behind me and work in an office. I worked at a construction firm. I worked as a paralegal. I really tried to make it work. And when I realized that I am a disruption to the office simply by existing, that people coming in are recognizing me, they're making comments to the partners, that I'm becoming a distraction and that makes me feel uncomfortable in that setting. that's when I decided to leave where I was living move to Austin create a new Instagram account become an influencer I started writing a sports column I started I started doing everything I could to like cement myself in the world of of the internet because I've always been a like a person of the internet I grew up on the internet um so I felt like influencing was was a natural segue for me.

28:10And it has been, it's been great. It's been a, it's been an uphill battle. I would say that once I'm in the room, people see that I actually do belong there. Their judgment goes out the window once they actually meet me. And I think that the last three, four years has been, has been the toughest, the toughest part. It's been really about proving myself because it was easy it was coasting it was like it was it was just me doing podcasts here and there me doing random gigs here and there but now I'm building a career for the rest of my life and this has been the most difficult but the most rewarding um difficult in what way but why is it more difficult now more people to answer to more people to convince I lived a very very low-key life before but that life also came with the anxiety in the back of your head of, okay, but you know what tomorrow looks like.

29:08You know what next week looks like. What does the next five years look like? What are you going to be doing then? And obviously the answer was I need to create something. I need to do something tangible. I need to put my creativity to use because I am a very, very creative person. I have a deep affinity for film and culture and art and music and everything and jewelry specifically. I've always loved jewellery at like a fundamental level in the way it's created, in the meaning behind it, in the way that it's culturally important to so many countries from India to the Middle East. Like that is a part of our culture.

29:45It's a really deep part of our culture. It's how we show love. It's how we pass down stories. And that's how shaitan came to be. Going back, you said you had low self-esteem. Yeah. And also being 16 and meeting someone who was, you said, 24? Yeah. I mean, I don't want to intrude. So you should be guided by what you can say. No, but what does being in a toxic relationship say about you? No one enters a toxic relationship if they have high self-esteem, if they have a good outlook on themselves and their life and a good relationship with shame that's been imposed on them culturally or just from society.

30:22people who have those things in check don't get into bad relationships why why do you think you're because you made like just 11 scenes or 11 movies yeah why do you think they were so popular because basically you were the most searched performer in the world for a while i actually have no idea no clue maybe maybe it's the fact that i don't want people to see it that makes them want to see it more. I think presumably like you don't look, you know, the classic porn or adult performer, they were usually blonde, right? And you were something else, right? I think it was also circumstantial. It was around the same time that Charlie Hebdo was happening and all of these conversations around Me Too were happening and throw in another controversial figure in there that is adjacent to those things.

31:17And I think it was circumstantial.

31:23Would you say that coming from Lebanon and growing up, you famously arrived in 2001, right? Just a few months before the attack on World Trade Center and the 9-11 bombings. And that must have had an impact on you. Of course. I mean, I grew up in a part of Maryland that's only 20 minutes from D.C. So a lot of the kids at my school had parents that worked at the Pentagon. So my school went on lockdown. A lot of the kids weren't allowed to leave. And that was a very, very scary time. Things were immediately, everywhere in the world, things were different. But specifically for our school, the security measures changed overnight.

32:10It was a weird time. They forced us to, they rolled in the TV on those black metal carts and made us watch it. It was crazy. It was really, it was really traumatic. You would have been just eight years old. So you would have known something extraordinary was happening, but not really appreciated quite what it meant. I'm also used to air raid. I was used to air raids at the time and running from the apartment building down to the basement, to the shelter. and hearing the sirens and feeling panic from adults. That was something that I've always been accustomed to. And I feel like that's a piece of generational trauma that I will always carry with me and have to work on so that I don't pass it on.

32:57I don't know. It was more like, oh, left Lebanon for Lebanon part two. Why, can you talk about your family leaving Lebanon? What was behind that? I mean, why does anyone emigrate for a better life? But what I mean is because I'm much older, you know, I was born in 1970. And what I recall is through the 70s and 80s, this feeling that Beirut was almost like a synonym for war-torn. Oh, no, it was a synonym for the Paris of the Middle East. Obviously, East and West Beirut and the Civil War had a huge effect on that. But I think that anyone who I mean, I even know British people right now who are like, oh, my God, you live in America.

33:34I wish I could get a visa. I wish I could go live there. I'm like, what? You have health care. Stay here. What are you doing? But America is is the country of capitalism. It's the American dream. There's no limit to what you could accomplish there. And to be honest, I I agree with that as much as I despise the American government and the infrastructure of America and everything that it stands for. You have I have to admit it is the American dream is called that for a reason. But I'm also trying to get at what was happening in Lebanon. And I did a little reading before this to try and get... A lot happened in Lebanon.

34:14There was a civil war, right? But it was complicated. Can you summarize what... It was very... I mean, no, I will not summarize it because I also can't even wrap my head around it. It's so convoluted. There's so many geopolitical aspects to it. It's so fucked up that the Lebanese Christians were working with the Israelis to go against the Palestinians. That's how fucked up it was. That's how fucked up the mindsets were. It was the phalanges against them. It was bad. And it's a lot more than I would care to get into because I don't want to say anything wrong and say something that I don't have right.

34:50I honestly know more about the American Civil War than I do about the Lebanese one because that is so confusing. I'd love to go there one day. I think you should. It's such a beautiful country. It's a nation of only about five or six million people. Yeah. Quite small, mostly surrounded by Syria and a little bit Israel. Yes. It's war-torn at the moment, right? What's going on right now? I mean, the South, there's always things going on. Yeah, and the South is what borders Israel. So there's always things going on, but there's also always positive things going on. Like, it is still very much a vacation destination.

35:28Like, everyone is still... We cheers through bombs. That's the Lebanese mindset. I implore anyone who can to watch the two episodes that Anthony Bourdain did on Beirut. The first one when in 2007 he went when the airport got bombed and his him and his entire crew got stuck there. And then they had to be evacuated about a week later by U.S. Marines through through through the ocean into Turkey, like through boats. And it was a very traumatic experience that they kept filming the entire way through. And then he released another episode when he had his show with CNN when he went back to Beirut and he had the same tour guide with him.

36:07And it was just a reflection on the resiliency of the Lebanese and his love for the culture and how much he wanted to show people that Lebanon is more than that and that the Lebanese will persevere through anything. Nothing will get us down. Another beautiful film is Capernaum. Have you seen that? Yes, I have. Directed by Nadine Labaki. She's an incredible Lebanese director. That one won an Oscar. Yes, it did. Yeah. Well-deserved as well. Extremely well-deserved. That film is beautiful. And another one that's... About a homeless child adopting another homeless child who's much younger and basically finding their way around, which makes it sound grim, but it's so exquisitely filmed and it's so emotional that it's majestic and powerful.

36:58Yeah. What were you going to say? Sorry. No, I was just going to say that she's incredible. You should check out all of her work. How are you with relationships? I'm a lover girl. I love relationships. I'm so monogamous. Are you? Yeah. Are we going to talk about that? Sure. Are you in a relationship? I am. Yeah. Yeah, I am. Keep going. Keep going. You sound like my therapist. Yeah. And no, I'm in a relationship that I like to keep close to my heart. Good for you. Thank you. I feel like you're the kind of person who does basically, you probably haven't had many relationships is what I'm thinking.

37:40No, I've actually only had a handful. Yeah. Four, five, six. Three or four. Do you keep a body count? No. Do you know what I'm talking about? I do. It's a big thing on the internet right now. All I know is mine's probably lower than Gal Gadot's. Shots fired. No, those were her shots that she fired. What did she say? She was in the IDF. It's a different type of body count. Oh, you made a joke. You made a very dark joke.

38:10Let's just sit in that moment for a second. Andrew Tate. Ew. What the fuck? Why is he so big in the culture right now? He is? Isn't he? No one pays attention to him. All the homies don't fuck with him. I pay no mind to him. Maybe there's many internets. There are plenty. There are a lot of internets. I'm not on that side of the internet. So you're conscious that there's the manosphere, so-called, this community of... They're speaking to incels. I think you mentioned incels earlier. Yes, exactly. It seems like that's what you're alluding to, incel behaviour, which I'm very thankful that it is not even in my sphere, which is why I kind of stopped...

38:53One of my passions is sports, but I have actively distanced myself from anything that has to do with sports because it cultivates a very strong incel community. Yeah. I mean, I don't even, is incel the right, obviously incel stands for involuntary seller, but it started out as it was supposed to be a positive or at least a sympathetic characterization of people who, many on the autistic spectrum who wanted to have relationships, physical relationships, but couldn't and didn't because they were awkward. and then it evolved into something more toxic. Yeah. A self-identified community of, I would say, some of them at least were women haters, misogynists.

39:33And what about, I know I'm jumping around a bit, but, you know, you're internet literate and way more so than I am. Like this community of, say, people like Logan Paul and Jake Paul, you're aware of them? Yeah. Your face is doing something. It's the autism. Oh! What's your face doing? That's the thing. I can never play poker. You're not a fan? No. Why not? Um, well, where do I begin? Begin at the beginning. No, they don't deserve that much of my mental bandwidth. I just simply hate them. In what way? They're just instigators. I mean, they're annoying. I'm allowed to think people are annoying. They're fucking annoying.

40:20People think I'm annoying. Yeah, name it. Listen. You're annoying. We've built you as... We've just been talking about how you're unafraid of being cancelled or saying exactly what you think, so you should say exactly what you think. No, what I'm trying to do is give them less airtime. Oh, I see. They are so unworthy of me talking about them. They've got enough airtime. And I hope they feel the same way about me. Do we know how they feel about you? Well, they've tried to get me on their show. Have they? Yeah. And what did you say? I have said no. Why the fuck would I do that? What does that culture represent then, do you think?

40:52It represents a desperate need to be relevant or for clout or to gain an audience that they have. So the people who I see going on there, I don't think less of them. I think that it's a very strategic move. Like, I have respect for Wiz Khalifa. I can see why he went on there. He wants to sell his weed to their little fans, which makes sense. The talented rapper and weed entrepreneur. Yes, exactly. And that was what he was there to promote, which makes perfect sense. But there's so many things that I know would benefit me greatly, especially financially, that I have zero interest in. Would you go on Joe Rogan?

41:29I used to want to for the longest time. But the more that I've learned, a woman that I respect greatly, Abby Martin, went on Joe Rogan. And her episode is incredible because I feel like she did a great job of showing his audience a point of view that they otherwise would not have been exposed to. And she even changed his mind while she was on his show. What was she speaking about? She was speaking about her time in Gaza and the segregation of the West Bank. And she showed him firsthand what she has seen and what people are going through. And that is something that I really admire, her going on a podcast to teach something.

42:11But no, I think that the circumstances would have to be very unique about what the subject matter is for me to go on Joe Rogan. uh you uh what do you okay this i'm trying to say this in not a leading way you went on call her daddy yes i see overlap between that and the kind of jake paul i do too i do too i actually that was something that i told alex was a huge worry of mine before i went on the show i think barstool is very logan paul and those people is the podcast company that produces uh it used to produce it And I expressed my worry to her. And she also was very vulnerable in expressing. It was one of her first, like, handful of episodes doing it by herself.

43:00And she came over to my house. We hung out the night before. And she also expressed to me what her goals were and what she wants out of her career and how she wants to pivot away from Barstool and her point of view. And I realized that we have a lot of similarities. And I really, I love her. I trusted her. I admire her. I think she's a great interviewer. Granted, I don't necessarily agree with. Well, it's not that I don't agree with it. It's just it's just not my kind of humor. It's not what what I would want to listen to. Like the she she is for a certain audience, which is for sorority girls or was at the time.

43:40What she has done since and what she has done now is like unbelievable. The people that she's been able to get on her show, the vulnerability that she's able to get out of the person she's interviewing is really admirable. And that's the reason I went on the show, because we saw eye to eye in what we should talk about and what the show is. I don't completely understand the sexual politics. That's OK. That's where my issue is. I don't either. It's something that makes me uncomfortable. The idea of going on and on about blowjobs. But it's salacious and it gets her views. I'm going to be an athlete in the bedroom for my man.

44:19Yeah. If you're not, then look out because someone else will be. Oh, I hate that. I hate that mindset. I hate that rhetoric. It's gross. It's cringy. It's very, it's almost pick me. It is pick me. It's very pick me behavior. I like that phrase. Did you just come up with that? No, I absolutely did not come up with it. I think it's a psychological term. Is it? What does it mean? It means a girl who is trying to put herself so far ahead and to be so different from all other girls that she gets picked by the guys. Like a girl who says, I don't hang out with other girls. There's just so much drama.

44:56I love my guy friends. We just drink beers. Oh, my God, you're drinking Cosmopolitan? No, I like my pint. I'll stick with this. That's a pick me, girl. Got you. because I was thinking about how... Is that the king of Denmark? Oh, Jesus. Is the king here? Should we move to the other one? What do we do? We just walk over and then we just pretend we pick up without a beat. The mic sounds different. The studio's different. They can do amazing things in post.

45:50Where is the king of Denmark? It's actually the ex-prime minister. Oh, my God. Jesus, someone said king, didn't they? You! I told you ex-prime, I'm sure my... He was never the king. Wow, he's not letting you have that one. Not even in front of your guest. Wow. Shout out to all our Danish fans out there. Oh, I rolled over my skirt. One, two, one, two. I was thinking... Should I just go? Yeah. Shouldn't we close the door? We're leaving. Oh, you're going to leave. Okay. Thanks. Because I was thinking about how many celebrities, like Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, who had sex tapes, right? And in fact, that was critical to them becoming famous, it's arguable.

46:35But actually the number of performers who've actually fully graduated from real sex work is... Borderline non-existent. Yeah. Especially ones that have completely pivoted away. Yeah. Jenna Jameson became very, very famous, but she never really left sex work. Same with Sasha Gray. Sasha Gray did a couple of movies. One was Girlfriend Experience with Steven Soderbergh. She was in Entourage as well for like a season, I think. She was the girlfriend of one of the main characters. But it was while she was also in the industry. So what do we make? So which speaks to your point, I think that it feels as though it's gate kept or ring fenced or whatever.

47:18Is that what it is? Or do you think it's something else? I mean, I think it's I think it's seeing how profitable of an industry it is, but not wanting to actually associate themselves with something that they look down on. And that's that's what it comes down to. They actually look down on it, but they want to profit from it the same way that they look down on Arabs, but want to profit off of colonizing the food, the culture, the muse, everything. Do you think it should be more normalized? I mean, it's a hard thing to talk about. I don't I that's that's a double edged sword of an answer to give because I don't think it should be more normalized because I don't think that it should be encouraged.

47:56I think that if if anyone is to get into the industry, it should be after they're 24, 25 in their right mindset, in a healthy place, doing it for the right reasons. But that's such an unrealistic suggestion or or thing to expect. but I definitely don't think that it should be encouraged. Did you sort out, you know, you've been very vocal about having been ill-used by a specific company. I'll name them. I'm not sure. Don't name them. Don't name them. It's better not to. Okay.

48:36They came out and criticized you. The guy who's in charge of the company, I Googled him. I was trying to figure out who is this guy. He's quite shadowy. Like you don't, you can't find a photo of it. They all are. They all use aliases. They all use second names. It's insane to see the lengths that they go to to protect themselves and their identities while benefiting off of exploiting every aspect of a woman. I mean, I will go as far as to say on record that they love it when a girl passes away because it means that they can, it's more ad revenue. It's more views. It's more clicks. It drives traffic.

49:13Of course. They are disgusting individuals and they get to hide away under fake names that they operate under. It's a really, really dark rabbit hole to fall into. I was looking at an interview where you were saying that you used to have trouble talking about any of it. And now what's your, how do you view, how do you contextualize that chapter of your life and how do you look at yourself going forward? The reason I used to have a lot of trouble talking about it is because I was extremely clouded by shame. I used to have a visceral reaction to even hearing the name Mia and knowing that if someone is calling me by that name, they are seeing me in a way that I do not want to be seen in.

50:00But that had a lot more to do with my mental health than it does about the bigger picture of things. But I think it's important to talk about it when it's in the right context. I think that there's a lot of people who want to talk about it because it'll get clicks and it'll be salacious and they think they're going to get one thing out of me when in reality I'm not going to engage whatsoever. If the conversation starts going in a way that I don't see as being important. If we're talking about it as a vessel to drive a message that will reach any young women, then I'm more than happy to talk about it.

50:39But if it's to talk about it for their benefit, for views or for any other reason, they're not going to get that conversation out of me. And if you were to discourage people from going into it, what would the grounds for that be? Why is it a bad idea, do you think? I think that nine years of therapy is a lot. And it's not because of what I went through in the in the industry. It's it's what I it's what I had to go through to get to a point in my life where I feel like I feel like I am of a healthy state of mind to make decisions in my life. and that's how long it took me to make those decisions that are so life-changing when you're 19, 20, 21 years old, 18 most of the time, that's what they're hoping for.

51:30You don't know what you're going to want for your life or what you want out of your life. You don't even know yourself that young. You should not make life-changing decisions when you're that young. Do you, as someone who looks at the internet, right, as a denizen of the internet, someone who's very fluent in the internet. Do you still find the internet enjoyable? Do you find the platforms fun to be on? Absolutely. I also feel like we're in, unless you go looking for it, you live in a social bubble. The things that I see on my feed reflect my opinions and my point of views. If I'm seeing anything else, it's because it's making global headlines.

52:08But for the most part, I love my feed. My feed reflects my ethos. It's a reflection of my beliefs And it's a place for me to have discourse that I enjoy and learn from. And I love social media because it also teaches me so much. If I feel something wrong with my body, the first thing I'm doing is putting my symptoms into either TikTok and watching a video on it or learning to do something through TikTok or finding a recipe or doing something. My screen time on Instagram, actually, when I look at my week, is always less than 18 minutes. I am on it to post what I have to post and then I'm getting the fuck out of there.

52:49I hate scrolling on it. Do you manage it yourself? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I know we haven't got that much longer. Again, we may or may not. What do we do about what's going to happen? Okay, how am I going to put this? So regarding Israel. How are we going to solve the Middle East? Is that what you're getting at? I'm trying to. Do you see a two-state solution as either viable or desirable? They have no right to exist.

53:19But I'm also not a politician, so why are you asking me that? That's my personal opinion. So. I think what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, is the state has no right to exist. Yeah, exactly. The people do. No, the fascist government has no right to exist. Of course. What the fuck? What do you mean the people do? That could be taken out of context. But where are they from if not Eastern Europe and all over the world? What do you mean? That is a religion that exists, that will exist everywhere. It's a peaceful, God-loving religion that is rooted in family and in tradition and in so many beautiful things.

53:57That country is not reflective of that. That fascist government is not reflective of that whatsoever. In fact, the most religious people that are a part of that community do not agree with what's happening whatsoever. Do you use psilocybin for your mental health? I do. Yes, absolutely. Are you a fan of the mushrooms? I am a huge fan of psilocybin mushrooms. I'm a huge fan of psychedelics as a whole. I love dabbling in, well, mushrooms more so than acid, but acid, weed, and mushrooms are my big three. They say that there's a lot of research going on at the moment. Have you done ayahuasca? No, I'm actually scared of that.

54:36Me too. I don't want to... That sounds terrifying. I don't want to defecate in public. Is that part of it? Yeah. That part I think I could deal with. It's the idea of having your brain assaulted, right? Yeah. Your mental faculties fully ravaged. Yeah. Like acid is a couple times a year thing for me. Mushrooms is a couple times a day thing. What are you getting out of? Are you micro dosing or do you have a macro dose? Do you ever actually go full? I macro dose, but that you got to set a whole day aside for that. And the last time I tried to macro dose in public did not go very well. Why? What happened?

55:12It was at Universal Studios in Orlando. It was a terrible idea. I was dressed up in a full Harry Potter costume. Interesting. You know that stuff? You were a child at the time? No, this was two years ago. It was two or three years ago. I just saw a lot of adorable little kids and I was like, I hope you stay that innocent. I didn't actually say that. I felt it on the inside and then cried. You did a little too much. I did a little too much. How are we doing for time? I don't know. Are you okay? I'm going to have to wrap it up in a second. It sounds like you're in a good place with your relationship.

55:47Could you see yourself starting a family? Absolutely. I can't wait to be a mom one day. Then they're asked to boarding school. That was a joke. It was not a joke, actually. I do not believe in the public school system in America. Come on. No, absolutely not. A boarding school? Yeah, but like... Don't do that. Next to home. I went to boarding school. Ask what they want. And it was the greatest thing in the entire world. Ask what they want. I will not be asking what they want. They are going to the school with the best education program. I will be moving to the state with the best schools per zip code.

56:21No, you cannot take chances in America. Right. The education system there is abysmal. Did you have a good experience at boarding school? I did. I had a great experience. Were you weekly or monthly? It was about three hours from home. And it was the only time in my life that I started to make friends. Everyone there was on a level playing field. We all wore a uniform. That was the only time in my life that I didn't get bullied. Everyone there had so much compassion for the other person. That was the first time in my life that I made friends. I had a roommate who was my best friend. Everyone who lived on our floor was, we were all such good friends.

56:57And it was military boarding school. So we would wake up at 530 with Reveille, do our morning chores, march down, raise the flag, march to the mess hall, march back, do our schoolwork. There was no more than 11 kids per classroom. I never felt like any question I had was stalling the class. There was never any. I just felt like it was it was such an invaluable learning experience, literally like literally a learning experience. I would not know the amount of things that I know had I been lost in a class of 30 plus kids with a teacher who was making minimum wage, barely surviving, as you do actually paying for a child's education.

57:36And I'm very grateful for that. And I'm very grateful to know what I should do if I want my future children to be in the same position. I feel like if private schools didn't exist, then the state would be forced to have decent public schools. Yeah. But that's the downside of America. I feel like public schools here and in Denmark or Sweden are completely different. But in America, it's bad. The teachers are barely making enough to live. There's teachers who have their hands tied behind their back financially so much that they're resorting to OnlyFans and then getting fired for trying to find another source of income to survive or to even fund their classrooms.

58:18How old were you when you went to boarding school? I went, high school starts at ninth grade, nine to 12th grade, and I went halfway through my 10th grade year. So I had both experiences. Right. So you were sort of 14, 15, something like that? It was a feeding school to West Point, which is, I don't know if you guys know what that is. West Point is... Military Academy. Famous. Yes. Marines graduate from it. No, Marines. No, it's for the US Army. And then the Naval Academy is all, like, it's DC. It's not as uncommon as it sounds. You either pick military boarding school, Catholic boarding school.

58:52Like it's a choice of like five top schools in that area. Could you have ever gone into the army? I thought I applied to the Citadel, which is a, I mean, if you look at my last tweet, it is a complete 180 from where I was when I was 17, 18. I really thought that like... Go on, your last tweet was? My last tweet was... Do you remember it? Not by heart, but I do remember the essence of it. And remember, you've got to read everything with a little hint of humour. Stop thanking people for their military service and start asking how many civilians they killed instead. Emoji, sort of a smiling, sleepy emoji.

59:37Not sleepy, just a little prideful. Is it prideful? It's a little... It's a wisdom smile. It's a smile of wisdom. It's it. And obviously, obviously. 4.1 million views, 59 ,000 likes. Go on. I mean, I, it's. But back in the day. Back in the day, that shit was driven into you. And I know being. And you were signed up. Were you very patriotic? I was patriotic because I had a lot of internalized racism. I did not want to be Arab. I did not want to be. I was a pick me. I was a misogynist. I pandered to all of these things that I thought would get me accepted in the communities that I so badly wanted to be a part of, which was white male dominated things.

1:00:25So I'm not proud of any of it, but I'm also really proud of my growth and self-awareness and ability to point at that and say, this is what you should not be. This is why you should take care of your mental health. This is why you need to address feelings that are so detrimental, like shame. Shame is I will die on this hill. Shame is the root of all evils of emotions. They wanted to put shame in Inside Out 2, and when they tested it, it was too depressing. They had to cut shame out. That's really interesting. I wonder if there's ever an appropriate level of shame. Of course. People need shame.

1:01:03You need shame. Because I look at people and I'm like, have you no shame? There's got to be a balance. There's got to be a balance of self-awareness and being able to say, oh, maybe I shouldn't wear this here, but it's appropriate to wear it here. Like, you know what I mean? There needs to be a concept of shame in a person to be able to. It's interesting. It's making me think of, you know, during the McCarthy trials and when Senator McCarthy was finally outed by a famous American journalist and the journalist said to McCarthy was that, long last, sir, have you no shame. And it's almost like a Gregory Peck moment.

1:01:44Yes. The idea of just kind of producing finally the appropriate morality and attempting to actually hold someone to account. Yeah, I mean, that's what I want to yell. Well, anytime the U.S. press secretary gets on the podium and is responding to questions from respectable journalists who have been doing this for decades and they are just being flippant in their answers about a genocide or about the state of America and where the citizens stand. My only thought is, have you no fucking shame? How do you go home and sleep at night? So which is the shame we're trying to get rid of? You're trying to get rid of the shame that places blame when in fact it should be something that you should be addressing.

1:02:28You should not feel ashamed about the way your body looks. You should address that and say have you no shame to the people who are making you feel that way and the reasons that you're feeling that way. Shame is heavy. It's a heavy thing to carry. And I think it comes from a lot of cultural reasons. I think anyone with brown parents, doesn't matter what kind of brown, can agree with that. The level of shame that's put on kids for any reason, for being slightly overweight, for not marrying the right person, for a plethora of reasons. Or for not having the right shoes, like poverty shame. You know, shame about I just didn't have the lunchbox that everyone else had.

1:03:10You know, I don't mean to trivialize. It's like the idea of not measuring up. No, no, that's not trivial at all. You know what I mean? That you're not part of the acceptable community. No, because what that breeds is an insecurity. And the healthy shame should be directed at the person who is making it. Who is doing the shame. Yeah. No shame on you. Yeah. The king of Denmark is, I think, no, he's not at the door. The producer is at the door. Can we still, I know it wasn't the king of Denmark. It was the ex-prime minister of Denmark. Is he out there? She. Sorry, that was everyday sexism. Oh, wow.

1:03:46Oh, she, of course. Women can be prime ministers too. I've forgotten that. Only in Denmark, though. Thank you so much, Sarah. I really appreciate it. No, for real. I think we solved the Middle East. I do too. I think we solved it.

1:04:13So here we are. I hope you enjoyed that. it was like a one-act play in two parts called The Prime Minister is Coming, that we think it's the king. And I'd forgotten that women can be prime ministers. They're allowed to do that now. Irony alert. Her name is Hel Thorning-Schmidt. I've got to stop doing bad accents. I don't know where the king thing came from. It was a product of my febrile imagination. Anyway, that's not really the main takeaway. I think the main takeaway is what an interesting person Sarah Cho is. With all she's lived through, perhaps you wouldn't expect it to be otherwise. What else do we say?

1:04:56I think in listening back to it, I was thinking about whether I should have gone a little further in the conversation about two-state solution in the Middle East, which for a long time has been the mainstream, as it were, certainly in the West, that's been the goal for US policy, the idea of both Israel and Palestine having their own states. But actually on the ground, as the encroachments of the settlements have continued, it's been a less sustainable, less realistic possibility. And so the one-state solution, somewhat like the South Africa model, the idea that actually there should be a single state in which everyone's rights are recognised and given equal weight would be, you know, a bit like America, say, where freedom of religion is guaranteed, there is no official religion, in which there would be more or less equal numbers of Palestinians and Jewish Israelis.

1:05:53Whether the state would even be called Israel is open to question, but I think that's more or less what Sarah Jo is advocating. I don't know if Mia slash Sarah Jo is offended by that question. She did mention it on Twitter afterwards. It'll be interesting to see how the episode is received. Feel free to let me know if you're offended. If you want to dox me, I am open to you doing that. That's a joke. Please don't. But, you know, we need people who shake things up, mix it up. Rebels, contrarians, provocateurs. I don't want to be one of those, but I'm happy to have a conversation with one or many.

1:06:37Are we done? Maybe that's it. Oh, yes, credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in the series is by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.