S3 EP5: Katie Price on her turbulent romances, cosmetic surgery and dressing up with Boris Johnson

24:22A self-absorbed surgical quest for the perfect body, wild spending and even wilder partying. The thing that she also goes on to say, I can't find the quote, though, is that after you've been through... Did we mention... I think you've had 16... It's been reported that you've had 16 boob jobs. If you Google it, I think it's more. But Google seems to know more than me. My team said 16, although some of those are going up, some of them are coming down. Like, it's not all... But I can give you some insight. In two weeks, they're going down again. You're a 34H right now. Yes. That's just a number and a letter.

24:58It means nothing to me. It is off. But they're going smaller in two weeks. Why is that? Too big. Too big. It's terrible, isn't it? But the point your mum makes, which I think is quite insightful, is that when you'd had a problem with a man... She always thinks I have surgery. Often your reaction is to have surgery, almost like other people might do comfort eating or go on a binge of some kind, and yours is right, I'm going back under the knife. I don't know what it is. Do you think that's true? I don't think it's often... If I was having problems with my girlfriend, I would tidy my CD or record collection.

25:31Really? Because it was control. And I was only afterwards, this is going back years, afterwards I'd realised, oh, that was a coping mechanism. You know, it's a way of dealing with stress. But for you, maybe surgery represented something. I think deep down there is something. I always said I haven't got body dysmorphia, but there's definitely something. I don't know what it is, but even before I was a model, I always wanted my boobs done, always. And then when I was 18, I had them done, so I've always liked that look. But I've never looked in the mirror and thought, oh, I'm pretty and whatever.

26:08And when people show me old pictures, I'm like, oof. So there must be something. Even old ones, it's quite common to look in the mirror and think, oh, I look crap, I certainly think that a lot. But sometimes I look at old photos and think, oh, I wasn't bad looking back in those days. No, I don't look at that at all, I think rough. That was me completely natural, natural boobs, everything. But a very beautiful young woman or girl. See, I don't think so. Isn't that mad? If there's something to tweak, I'd do it. But I can see girls when I think, ooh, that is too much. And sometimes in the past I have looked in the mirror and thought, OK, oh, no, you've gone too far, just get it back out again.

26:50So I can recognise when it's too much. But I'm like, I don't know. I just, I don't know. That's another thing I have to get to grasp with myself about the surgery thing. I don't know if it's body dysmorphia or what I'm trying to gain out of it. Do you ever consider whether... I don't mind getting old. I haven't got a problem with that. Because, you know, your hands, your neck, everything gets all wrinkly. I don't know what it is. I'm not afraid of getting old. I like getting old because you become wiser. But with the face and that, I just think, oh, if there's something to tweak, it's just easy to do.

27:25Have you had much done on your face? I'm having a full facelift in end of July. But your face looks fine. Yeah, but I want it like that. I know, I don't understand, because everyone's like, Kate, you're fine, but I just want it. But you look quite natural at the moment. But I like, this is the thing, I like looking natural. I hate wearing make-up. I've just got a tiny bit on now because I'm on your camera, but I never, ever wear make-up unless I'm working. I hate wearing make-up. If we said... Because if we want to leave, like... There's obviously a narrative which involves a series of men who've behaved in different ways badly, either by being unfaithful, by being coercive, abusive.

28:11But leaving that to one side, let's talk to you about your sense of your relationships and the extent to which you feel you might have not been everything you could be, right? So I've just done the domestic abuse course and it was really interesting. And I can see a pattern in my relationships and I ask the question, I must have made them like it, I must have made them controlling, I must have made them jealous, this is what I'm thinking. But now I've learnt it's the wrong men that I've picked and a lot of men don't like independent women because they're not in control and I'm very independent.

28:54And for me, it's a safety thing for me to know I'm earning the money and I can pay the bills. I don't like to rely on anyone else because that's the way it is. But, yeah, doing this domestic abuse course has made me know about boundaries now. I never knew about boundaries in a relationship. I didn't know what red flags were. I didn't know what early signs of abuse was. What kind of boundaries do you mean? Boundaries like, of course it's all right if you want to go and see your friends. Like, of course it's all right if you want to go and spend time with your family. Of course it's all right if you want to have nights with your kids on your own.

29:33Of course it's all right if you want to go out. Just things, boundaries. If you get somebody who's like, who are you messaging? Show me your phone. I want all your passwords. It's all things like it's not normal. It's just all red flags and stuff. And to know that they're just trying to teach me what a normal, healthy relationship is, and I haven't ever been in a normal, healthy relationship. I've been burnt. I've been ripped off. I've been walked over. People have taken advantage of my kindness as a weakness. I've hit the most rock bottom I could ever have hit in my life, committed suicide, but I survived it.

30:13and to help yourself, it doesn't matter how many people say, you've got to do this, you do that, you've got to want to do it yourself. I've had to do a full circle, and I'm so positive now that I look back and it makes me like, oof, sick, like how I was. I never want to get in that place. When I look at my private notes, I'm like, oh, my God, that was me. I was so ill, because I reflect on it now, how different I am. I know all the triggers. I got rid of people out of my life who I knew weren't good for me and communication is massive. You know, if you're getting bills or, you know, I had the bankruptcy, they were really on my case, all of this, and it become noise.

30:54But the day you start communicating, that's all it takes. You don't have to do a lot, just little bits of communicate. Then it's like a seed that's been watered, it grows. Communicating with who? Bankruptcies, bills, tax people. Well, just on that, I was confused. You must have made so much money over the years. I've made loads. Millions. And I'm still making loads. I used to get a lot for OK magazines, like£80 ,000 to£120 ,000 a shoot. Now you're lucky if they offer you£5 ,000. It's not worth doing it. OK magazine. It's all different now. How much did you get for your wedding to Peter Andre? It was just under a million.

31:31Because it was reported that you got more than... I always got more than Pete. My contracts were different. Wait, I thought I wasn't going to say that. Did Pete get a... I thought you were... You were married, you get the same... No. Surely it's all in one pot. No. What? Because if I did a photo shoot with him, we'd have separate contracts. Why? Because I was worth more. But didn't you share everything? Oh, we paid bills and that, but... Different bank accounts? It was always my house. I never bought a house of him, never. How much did he get for getting married to you then? I think with the marriage, we put a lot of that money into the wedding that I didn't even see on the day because it was OK shoot and I was pulled here there and everywhere, had to do pictures for the magazine.

32:15But, no, as a rule, because he'd just come out of the jungle and who was he? He'd come out of I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here, which is where you met. Yeah, but I was already, like, established. He'd met me and it was his lucky day. So we always had separate contracts. There's no way I'm splitting half and half, no thanks. My point was you got paid more than David and Victoria Beckham. who also sold their wedding photos. If you think, me and Pete were on the cover literally every week. They're good paydays, they were. Yeah. And you probably make a pretty good living now. How many OnlyFans subscribers do you have?

32:49I have no idea this company run it for me. I just do the pictures because I absolutely love it. Can you say how much you make from the OnlyFans? It's different. It depends what I do, what content I do, when I can be bothered. I know that sounds awful. But you've got the subscriptions, so each month there must be a baseline of how much is coming in. To be honest, I don't even look because it goes into a different account so it makes loads. I mean, anyone knows. You can be someone who's no one and make 30 grand a month. I think with mine, it's a lot of my old school fans. People in Radioland who don't know what it is.

33:30It's a subscription-based... Everyone's going to know. It's a subscription-based social media platform where in order to see someone's content, you have to pay a monthly subscription. Yeah, I mean, it has got the tacky side. It's often adult-related. It's got a side. I think some people do porn and all of that on it. Or you've got it where, say, myself, because I do TV and I've got a family and that, and I've always done my glamour shoots. I don't go, Nate, I don't show anything. But although it's still... Nothing topless. Do you consider what you did back in the day to have been porn? People could say it was, but I never done all of that.

34:09To me, it was just like... It was topless. I did page three, yeah. You did page three a lot. You did a lot of the men's magazines, the lad magazines. Like the loaded FHM, GQ. You never did bottom half naked? No, only the American Playboy, but my legs were closed. Why is that? Five to twelve, should I say, or midnight. because I'm just... For me personally, I wouldn't do that for my family. I think you either want to do that or you don't, and I never wanted to do that. I'm really weird to work out, by the way, because it's like I would say I'd stand there and do topless, but then I've got morals on a different way.

34:47I'm really confusing to work out, because there's things I've done. I've done Playboy and I was naked, but yet I wouldn't do a naked shoot. That's quite normal. Is it? You have to burst your bubble, yeah, to have, like, a moral... I don't know what, but I'm still the same person. I'm not inconsistent. You've got just different moral... You know, some things are comfortable, some things you like, some things you don't like. One thing I'm confused by is how you managed to go bankrupt, given how much your earning power was. Where was all the money going? It's when I met my ex-husband. It all went downhill.

35:19Which one? Kieran. It's all coming back to Kieran. You were with Kieran for six years. Of how? 2012 to 2018, got engaged after two months of dating. That's too fast. Tell me about it. No, not engaged. I got married after five weeks. OK. Remember, as soon as I met Kieran, he started an affair with my best friend on 25 years, three months in, and I was pregnant. Like, it was just horrific. How quickly did you say Kieran started a relationship? Three months. Three months? Yeah. But he destroyed my best friend's marriage as well. Who was your best friend? She was Jane. I'm still friends with Derek.

35:56He's still friends with the family. Derek's the husband? Yeah, their divorce. Did they split up? Because of it, yeah. It's such a shame because I love Jane. How did you find out that Kieran was having an affair with Jane? Caught them on holiday. How? On the sunbeds when we were in Cape Verde, a holiday that I paid for us all to go on. The four of you, the two couples? And the kids were all on holiday, yeah. And what happened?

36:22Basically, I was playing Uno with the kids and I was pregnant and I asked him to get me a hot chocolate. He said, I'll go to the bar. And then an hour went by, two hours, and I thought... I don't know, I just thought, this is a bit weird, but I thought, oh, we'll be back in a minute. A kid's toy kept going off in my room, waking me up, this kid's toy. And then I'd look at the time and I'd be like, this is taking the piss. So I went outside to the security and I said, have you seen, is Jane in her place? Because her villa was opposite. He went, no, she's not in there. And I said, right, can you just keep an eye on my villa for me?

37:01Because the kids are asleep. And then I went to the beach bar on the front, walking through there in my shorts, and people were saying to me, you all right? I said, has anyone seen my husband? And then there was a table full of people and they pointed towards the sea. He said, oh, we saw him walk that way. and I just knew, I just knew before I got there and I remember walking to the beach, you know when they stack sunbeds up and I could see two figures on it and I stood there, I got close enough to how I am with you here for about 30 seconds, watching them kissing, he had his pants down, she was sucking him off basically and then I remember getting her hair and I went, I fucking knew it and pulled her back and I remember hearing a click, I thought I'd snapped her neck and I looked at her for a minute and thought, fuck, what have I done?

37:55Then I started punching her going, I fucking knew it. But then it was so weird in my head because it's like I'm punching my best friend in the face. It was such a weird, surreal thing. And then he was doing his pants up. And I remember it was this scene out of my best friend's wedding when Julia Roberts is running after Cameron Diaz and she's running after the guy or something like that. And I went, you're never seeing this baby again, I knew it. And then Jane went, what, you're pregnant? You just couldn't make it up. So we had to do two weeks off that holiday because it was new then when people were going to Cape 30.

38:33They only had flights on a Thursday. Jane's husband was due out to fly out the next day because of work. And then he's like, I've done nothing wrong, I've done nothing. They just both fucking lied to me until we got home. Even though you literally ripped her mouth off? Oh, it was all these bollocks. And then when we got home, I made him do a lie detector test. He failed three of them. That's how I got the truth out and the truth out about my other friend. It's horrible for me to talk about because I've had therapy for it. But it felt like to me that two people have been murdered, like murdered.

39:07Because when you go through something traumatic, you either turn to your husband or your best friend. But it was them two who had betrayed me that, like, you would not believe. How long had it been going on? A year and a half. Really? Yeah. Until then, you hadn't known that he was cheating on you? No, I knew something was going on. Because my waters broke in France with Jet. And I was in Ex-en-Provence in hospital there for six weeks because he came early. He was about 31 weeks. My waters broke, so I had to stay into hospital. and it was weird because she wouldn't visit me nor him until the evenings and she was all done up.

39:50It was like she was turning into me and I just knew it but he would make me feel like... I'd say, do you fancy? Like, fuck off, she's old enough to be my mum, stuff like that. The gaslighting, all of that. Did you stay with him after that all came out? Yeah, because funny enough, I was pregnant with him, didn't want my friend to have him. It was just such a fucked-up situation. In a weird way, maybe that made him... No, when you forgive... Yeah, this is what happens. When you forgive them, they do all the sorries, then they do it again. It's still quite emotional for you. It's not emotional. I'm over him, but he has fucked up so many families, situations, my kids, and, like, I just didn't know him.

40:32It's my own fault for not knowing him, getting married and fooling for how he's charmed. like I fell for it and he's good at what he does.

40:45MUSIC

41:03If we got all your significant exes in for a focus group, right... I would love to sit with them all. Like, OK, so JJ, the one you're with now... No, he's not an ex, you're with him now. But let's say Peter, Andre, Alex Reid, the cage fighter that you went out with. See, the thing is with Pete... Leandro Penner, an Argentinian model, Chris Boyce and personal trainer, Ice the gladiator, Dane Bowers. Ice or Ace? Ace. Ace. I haven't really got that many exes considering my age. No, no, I'm not trying to imply that there's a lot. No, no, but I'd love to get them all in here. And we said, what was the issue in your relationship with Katie?

41:41What would they say, do you think? I don't know, because they were the issues. They've become the issues. What would they say about you, though? I think they would be, say, they didn't like my work, but they liked it when they met me. This is the trouble. They didn't like the fact that you did topless modelling? I think the initial is they just want to have sex with me, but then they actually fall for me as a person and then it starts, oh, I don't like you doing that shoot or why do I have to talk to that person? And that's how it starts with all of them. And then it's always, you can Google me, look at my past, you know what I'm with and then it's the same exhausting relationship.

42:25What about... I need a Richard Gere, I've always joked. I said I want to be Julia Roberts and get swept off my feet like I'm Pretty Woman. Do you... I've never had that, by the way. I've never had a man, ever... A real man. A real man that's ever, ever said, do you know what, we're going away for the weekend, or, oh, I'll pay for your holiday. Oh, let me take you out shopping. I've never had that. Who's your ideal man, like, not that you've been out with, but your fantasy figure? That's probably a businessman, someone who doesn't want to be the fame, someone who doesn't want to be famous, who's got their own little empire.

43:05of people that you're attracted to. No, personality, I think. I've always... But then you saw Gareth Gates, the singer on Pop Idol, and you thought, oh, he's really hot, and then you went out of his way to... Yeah, but I was, what, 20? ..get something going with him. I was young. This is before I knew about boundaries when I was young. But saying now, it would have to be someone who's driven... Do you remember what you said about his penis? I can't remember. I know I split the bellend bit. Banjo. What's banjo? You know what the... Shut up, Louis. But you know what the banjo is. I've never heard that.

43:36The banjo string. Yeah, the bit. Pull the skin down, it's that little dilly-dilly, that bit. You shut up. You don't know what it is. To be fair, you've had more face time with penises than I have. Do you know I don't like doing that either. Mine is always three or four feet away. I've learnt you don't send people pictures and that. Not that much. Mine's a couple of feet down the chest. I don't see it that close. I don't see that side of it either. No, you wouldn't. Isn't that weird? That's the dark side of the bellend. of the helmet. Oh, so you do know. I've never heard that term banjo. Is it banjo or banjo string?

44:09I just said banjo. But then, as you said, you split his banjo. And he hopped around the room. And he hopped around the room and then you had to stop and then you reconvened, you postponed it. The next day, I think. You took a rain check. Yeah. Due to banjo issues. But there are people in the industry who people know, who I've done things with. Go on. No, because they've been all right with me, I don't need to say anything about them. But I think people would lift their eyebrows and be, what? You and that? How the fuck did you get in there or this and that? Seriously? Yes! Boris Johnson. No, no, you'll never get it out of me, Louis.

44:51So don't worry about it. You can keep pressing and pressing. You'll never guess. Piers Morgan. And my sister would be in the back room watching this guy and fuck's sake, Kate. Piers Morgan said that you tried it on with him and Simon Cowell. Oh, please, shut up, Piers. You fucking wish I tried it on with you, you egg. Sorry. So just to zoom out for a second, because when I think about... I was most closely kind of engaged in what you were doing when you were at this... I suppose it sort of depends on what was going on in my life a bit. And before I had kids, I was watching more TV. Yeah. And, you know, you were coming up through the Lad Mags and that was in the air.

45:31And then when you went on... I'm a celebrity, obviously, that was a massive moment. And you'd come out with all the issues that Harvey had and it felt like you were very beloved and that the public viewed you as a national treasure. So... It all went downhill when I split with Pete. And it's taken me all these years to rebuild, go through the breakdown, rebuild myself again. It was tough. Everyone just turned on me. Then it was the Team Pete, Team Kate. It was awful. Awful. Awful. You split in 2009. Peter hinted at a significant undisclosed event leading to their separation, while Katie admitted the split was silly and just stupid.

46:15It was. And then from... Because you could have figured it out, do you think? Yeah. How's relations with Pete now? Don't speak to him. Why? Just don't. it's all through legals. He was quite jealous of me working. We'd better get this episode very well legaled. I'm sure it's nothing you can't handle. How are you doing? How's your energy? How are you doing? I'm a bit hungry. Got any biscuits? Bring a bit, bring biscuits. I want to zoom out for a second and just say... Go for it. Look, it's worth mentioning that your first autobiography was the best-selling in British history at the time. It outsold David Beckham's, sold over a million copies.

46:58That's amazing, isn't it? Do you know, I'm actually like, all my books have gone to number one, every single one. How do you explain... Because I worked hard to get it there. People who didn't know, you might think, well, what's her claim to fame? She's been on some reality shows. She's had some memoirs that were ghosted for her, probably. Like, what is it that she's got? Nevertheless, everything you do... Well, I would say most of the things you do, like the books for example go to number one right they're really well uh loved and that you've got a huge following in the tv shows and the documentaries yeah keep getting recommissioned because people always want to know they're interested and what's that all about do you think first of all the public keep me here because it's down to them who buy stuff or buy into it's the public and two i think because i'm not manufactured a lot of people in this industry are manufactured I'm not.

47:52I am what I am and I really have had true life. And I love doing my reality shows. I just love speaking about stuff. And I think, because I started when I was 17, I don't really know any different. This is all I know. And it's like if I have surgery, I'm happy to talk about it. If it's gone wrong or this and that, I'm just, I'm quite an open book, but I think that's just it. I think people have grown up with me. I wonder if it's well. It seems like your superpower is also what's got you in trouble over the years. A lot. And that part of you is attracted to chaos or chaos comes to you for whatever reason.

48:32It does. It can't be coincidence. And, you know, we've talked about a lot of your ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends and there's this pattern of it not working out and it being complicated. And I think some of that you have to own, right? That's just the nature of reality. When I look at all old school reports and that of me or through my career, My choices of things, I'm like, I would say, the rocky path person or I would do something and be like, ah, I've done that. Ah, I've got to wait for the chaos. For example, if an ex or someone said anything about me, I'd go on Instagram, rah, this has happened.

49:07It would fuel the fire, then it's in the papers, then it's this, that. Because I didn't know how to control things or no-one was there sticking up for me, so I'd try and stick up for myself and it comes out wrong when really I should have just left things. but I didn't know how to control all that but now I know how to control that and I don't do it now. And what I'd add to that is that all that chaos, the ex-husbands, the bankruptcies, the substance issues, the drama, it's all, while it must have been painful to live through, extraordinary... I can't blame anyone because I made them choices. And for people on the outside, your life unfolds like a human soap opera.

49:46It is exactly that. And so, you know, and that's, you know, whether it's been to your benefit in the long run, it's only you can decide, but actually it means that there's this never-ending appetite to follow your life and what's going on with you. And as sad as it is, it is my life, and I'm the person living that, the hurt, the pain, the good things, the bad things. And I am to a blame for a lot of it through my choices, my reactions, my decisions. But I've never harmed anyone. I'm a good parent, I'm a good person, I'm professional, I turn up for work. Obviously, when I'm coming out of a nightclub when I'm younger, I'm with my mates, you're pissed, the cameras are like, you're like, yeah, and you're in your little outfits.

50:37But people have to remember, I was young. Like, I've grown up with the media, grown up with people, so they've seen me going out partying, then having kids, then getting married. Relatable. Do you ever worry that you've been an influence on young girls who might think, oh, I want to get a boob job like Katie because, you know, I admire her? Do you know what I mean? Yes. In any way, do you take responsibility for that? Yeah, I've never said to anyone I want to be a role model in the way of... Because I'm not perfect, definitely not perfect. And I've made it very clear that I had my boobs done too young.

51:15now I look back 18 because I look at princess she's going to be 17 um next week she's like a baby and then I think oh my god I look at princess and think god I was out in my car with my A to Z at your age um traveling and all of that but I think I was a little bit more grown up than princess and then thinking if she was going under the knife to have boobs like she's young I think it should be 21 for girls to have boobs and that done. Because it is anaesthetics and all of that. I know I'm not sitting there and being a hypocrite because I'm 46. Now if I want to start tweaking my face, then I will.

51:52I've done my whole modelling career. I know I had my boobs done, but that was it. A couple of times I tried my lips, hated it. But I think because it's so easy to get now, so accessible. Accessible? Accessible, for sure. You can just walk up any street now and there's an aesthetic clinic and you can go and be pumped with stuff. I just think it's sad on young girls. So no, I don't want to be a role model like that. And I don't think girls should get their boobs done for a career. But you are one, whether or not you like it. In a role model, maybe in the way where I've come through things and that, but not for surgery.

52:25I don't want to be a role model for surgery because it's not always what it's made out to be. When you look back, I mean, we haven't really talked about it but I mean you've spoken frequently about issues that you had or things you went through as a much younger person yeah because when clearly people who listen will be curious about when I was raped at seven in a park well that's one of them so I knew he was coming there well there were other things as well yeah I've been abused raped um they never caught the No, but the problem when I have therapy is I say things so matter of fact and that's not normal.

53:03And that's why I do have the therapy because I'm like, yeah, this has happened, that's happened, that's happened. When really one life of trauma event can affect someone for the rest of their life because I've had so many. I'm like, yeah, that's happened. I was held at gunpoint, raped in front of my kids. That was in South Africa. That was much more recent. That was 2017 or something. It was recent. But also worth saying that your biological dad split from your mum... When I was three. ..when you were three. Yeah. Your stepdad, Paul, entered the picture when you were how old? Three. He was my dad's friend, yeah.

53:40Either way, it must have been weird. It would have had some effect on you, I would have thought. Maybe that might be why I needed... Not that Paul, my stepdad, has been a fantastic dad. Yeah. and there's no issues with my biological dad or they all like talk if they'd meet up or whatever and my wedding I had my biological dad and stepdad take me down the aisle so there's no problems with it there but I think when I was younger and I used to go around my friend's house is to see the mum, the dad I think it does probably play something on you because it must do that might have been where my need is to find the mat I don't know because I was brought up in a really nice family, working class.

54:27There's not one complaint I could have about my childhood. Apart from my mum and dad were quite protective, but I think that's because of what's happened to me as a kid, you know, getting raped at seven and all of this. They were quite protective. But I was just into my horses. I used to have my bike, type my radio to it, tape it and write to my horses. Hold on, because we're running out of time. I know I talk a lot. Your mum said this, OK, because I thought this was quite perceptive and you can react to it. For years we've looked on, often powerlessly, as Kate's relationships have repeated toxic patterns of coercive control and domestic abuse.

55:02We've watched her turn to drugs and even more drastic measures to protect herself against the pain of childhood traumas and a longing to reconjure the lost relationship with her dad. How did she say that? She's defended her vulnerability with alter egos, like Jordan, but it can still be seen in her needy men, treacherous friendships and even an obsession with caring for animals. She's right. My relationships are like that. Yeah. And I used to say that when I was the Jordan, I am the same person, whether it was Kate. When I used to do men's magazines, it's like they can look at me but they can't touch me.

55:43Does that make sense? Mm-hm. I used to say, is that why I love it? Like, I can get my kit off and be like, yeah, you can look at me, guys, but you can't touch me. I don't know. I just think it was a more... It gives you a power? More probably a power thing, yeah. That's the control I had because I was... I don't know, because I was never in control of relationships. But the bigger point, I think, was that... I've just had so many traumatic things, like, and the men thing, like... Maybe it has had an effect because there was a lot of incidents when I was younger, but it still hasn't... Well, I've had shit relationships, but I'm still here sitting to tell the tale and still got a big grin on my face, ready to bring the empire back, and I will.

56:29Good for you. We haven't really talked about me very much. You? Yeah. Oh, shut up, Lou. What do we need to talk about you for? Have you seen any of my programmes? Oh, fuck off, you know I have. Have you? Love your stuff. There we go. Always love it. There's just so many. that I just like the way you're so dry. Yes. There we go. Cos I've got to dry him. You don't have to go on about it. Oh, shut up. You just asked me. I feel like I could just carry on talking for hours. There's so much, isn't there? Let's do a marathon for charity. 24-hour... You probably could as well. And you keep going and then we could do it in shifts.

57:05Like, you have a quick sleep and I'll talk for an hour.

57:21Hiya, it's me. I'm back. I hope you enjoyed that. I did. It was an extraordinary conversation and an insight into a unique individual, someone who's been through a lot of chaos and heartbreak. There's clearly trauma there, and Katie speaks about it so lightly that I think it can be disarming. You can almost assume that there's less trauma there than there actually is because of a kind of levity with which Katie speaks about it. I also enjoyed, I mean, look, there's a lot of highlights. I don't want to spend ages post-morteming a conversation that sort of speaks for itself, but the Lebedev chat, the quip that I wished I'd made was the fact that it sounded like the ultimate murder mystery weekend.

58:04You know, like an Agatha Christie novel murder at the villa, murder in Tuscany, with the mercurial Russian oligarch, the unpredictable political figure, the foreign minister, the pop star Pixie Lott, the glamour model, the film legend Joan Collins. Maybe it could be a reboot of Cluedo. No one died, though, as far as we know. Or did they? The other thing I didn't pick up on was the fact that everyone was on the private jet except Boris, who flew EasyJet. It's kind of hard to imagine Boris Johnson on an EasyJet, but there you have it. I guess it was to do with some kind of declaration of financial interest or the perception that he'd be receiving gifts, but then he was a guest at the Tuscan Villa, so I'm not sure how all of that works.

59:03What else? Well, it's clear that she's still dealing with the fallout from the breakup with Kieran and specifically the betrayal, which sounded awful. the betrayal by Kieran and also her best friend and the fact that they were on holiday together. I mean, all the details are hideous. And catching them in the act. I mean, if you watched it on a soap, you'd think it was overblown. In flagrante delicto. In the heat of the crime. That's Latin. I am educated, is the point. Oh, did I say that? You can cut that out. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources.

59:45Visit spotify.com forward slash resources. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. I did some research. Can I have a researcher credit? it. The music in the series was by Miguel de Oliveira. Special thanks to our long-suffering legal counsel at Abbas Law. They had a lot to do on this one. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.