S3 EP6: Nick Kyrgios discusses his love/hate relationship with tennis, mental health battles and conspiracy theories

In short

Episode Summary: The Louis Theroux Podcast - Season 3, Episode 6: Nick Kyrgios

Overview In this episode, Louis Theroux speaks with Australian tennis player Nick Kyrgios, known for his controversial reputation and exceptional talent in the sport. They discuss Kyrgios's complex relationship with tennis, his mental health struggles, and his views on conspiracy theories.

Key Themes Love/Hate Relationship with Tennis

Kyrgios expresses a love/hate relationship with tennis, acknowledging his passion for competition but also a dislike for the sport at times.
He highlights the pressure and expectations placed on athletes, particularly from Australian fans who desire a new tennis champion.

Controversial Reputation

Known as the "bad boy" of tennis, Kyrgios discusses how his fiery personality and behavior on the court have drawn comparisons to past players like John McEnroe.
He believes that showing emotion in tennis is normal and argues that similar behavior is often accepted in other sports, such as rugby and soccer.

Mental Health Struggles

Kyrgios opens up about his mental health battles, particularly during 2019, a year he describes as particularly challenging.
He candidly discusses issues such as depression, self-harm, and the pressures of fame. Kyrgios emphasizes the importance of good support systems and mental health awareness.

Conspiracy Theories

The conversation takes a lighter turn as Kyrgios shares some of his beliefs regarding conspiracy theories, such as skepticism about the construction of the pyramids and moon landing narratives.

The Life of a Professional Athlete

Kyrgios reflects on the loneliness of being a professional athlete, including the challenges of being away from family and friends for extended periods.
He discusses the financial burden of tennis, where players must support themselves, unlike many team sports.

Important Quotes

"I feel like you can't judge an athlete for what they do on the court because you have to be two different people."
"Sometimes I care, but at the same time, I feel like when people just get to know me, they kind of understand where I'm coming from."

Notable Moments

Kyrgios recounts his early days in tennis, including how he wasn't groomed for success like many other tennis prodigies.
He shares insights about his upbringing, with a Greek father and a Malaysian mother, and how that background influences his identity.
The discussion touches on Kyrgios's desire to return to tennis at a competitive level, with aspirations of playing at the US Open.

Conclusion The episode provides an in-depth look into Nick Kyrgios's life, blending serious discussions about mental health and the pressures of professional sports with lighter commentary on his unique personality and views on various topics. Louis Theroux's interviewing style encourages Kyrgios to be honest and relatable, making for a compelling conversation about the complexities of fame and personal struggles in the world of tennis.

Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Hello. Are there any listeners there? Not funny. Hello, Louis Theroux here. Welcome to my podcast called, what is it again? Oh yes, the Louis Theroux Podcast.

0:18In this episode, my guest is Australian tennis player Nick Kyrgios. Born to a Greek father and a Malaysian mother, Nick's skills with a racket were noticed early and he made his Grand Slam debut at 18 years old. Nick has won seven ATP Tour singles titles, including the 2019 and 2022 Washington Open, and reached 11 finals, most notably at Wimbledon in 2022. However, his professional achievements have often been overshadowed by controversy and a mercurial personality both on and off the court, which we talk about during the chat. His professional tennis career has been further complicated by repeat knee and wrist injuries, but he's put his time off the court to productive use.

1:00He fronts his own celebrity interview podcast called Good Trouble with Nick Kyrgios and he was chosen to commentate at this year's Wimbledon's Men's Final. I am a tennis fan, not of an obsessive sort, but I like it when it's on and I play very little, if I'm honest. I had a few lessons once and the instructor said, you have the potential to have a very good serve. The potential is as yet unrealised. We recorded this interview remotely in July 2024 with Nick joining from his home in Canberra. I caught Nick midway through the Olympics in Paris, remember that? He wasn't taking part due to a long-standing dispute that he has with the Australian Olympic organisers.

1:46Warnings, adult content, a bit of bad language and what I thought was a pretty good Australian accent, but my production team seems to think otherwise, mate. All of that and much, much more after this.

2:17Thanks for doing this, man. Of course. I'm a tennis fan, but I'm not a tennis expert. And I'm kind of, I follow tennis, like a lot of people in the UK, like Wimbledon is obviously huge. Yep. And then because of BBC having Wimbledon TV rights, every year you're immersed in two weeks of Wimbledon. I know Wimbledon means a lot to you. Yes. But actually what I was going to start by saying, as we speak, we can't ignore the fact the Olympics are going on, right? Yep. But you're not there. Yeah, unfortunately not. But I would like to hope maybe in four years, the next four years, if everything goes well and I'm healthy, I would love to be there.

2:54It hasn't been something that I've always wanted to. I mean, wanted to do yes, but not always allowed. I was on the naughty list for a couple of years earlier in my career and I wasn't able to participate. But now if I was healthy, I don't see why I wouldn't be there and playing alongside all the amazing athletes. It would be a dream for me to be there, to see the NBA players, of course, that represent the United States. So you referred to naughty behaviour. I mean, the elephant in the room, obviously, is that along with your incredible gift for tennis came a reputation, deserved or undeserved, for being feisty on the court and argument-prone, maybe tantrum-prone, which is not unusual in tennis, but you took it maybe, well, did you take it to the next level?

3:44You certainly were the avatar for that kind of thing for a while. That's been the story of my life, really. I mean, I guess coming into tennis, I mean, just to answer a couple of questions that you gave me, you know with the the reputation I guess like John McEnroe coming up and then obviously Kyrgios and I guess we're a bit hot-headed in a way but I don't think we are really because you know tennis is such a old you know gentleman sport I think anyone that kind of shows any sort of personality is kind of outside the box and outside the cookie cutter of the normal tennis player so I feel like behavior that you see from us would be completely normal in say rugby or soccer or you know you can kind of get away with those things in my opinion but um yeah I mean look you can't judge an athlete for what they do on the court because you have to be two different people in my in my opinion yeah or not purely that right and I think we said there was something similar with John McEnroe where he was a flamboyant um you know larger than life personality who would you know famously you cannot be serious which was apparently he only ever said that once I learned that when he told he he said that to you maybe yeah uh and his other one you guys are the pits of the world yeah yeah well i was struck by when he was talking to you by the way i'm plugging your podcast but there we go well you're you're sort of on hiatus from tennis somewhat and among the things that you're turning your hand to is yep is having your own podcast but he found forms of uh of of kind of argument that did not involve swearing yes because that meant he didn't get find yeah i i think he definitely saved a lot of money not swearing that's for sure um but i just think the way that we kind of went about our tennis and the way we kind of walked and the way we you know he was very different the way he dressed on the court the way i kind of go out in jordans and the way we do things it automatically pulls a lot of eyes and a lot of like oh red flag you can't do that that's uh that's not that's not in the rules of you go out wearing Jordan's, i.e.

5:42like basketball shoes? Yeah, just Jordan ones. But you don't play in them? Just runners. Why? Just a routine I had since I was a little kid. That was just a thing I did and I got fined for it, but I'm not going to change. You've racked up the most fines of any player in history, according to my notes. Mm-hmm. Do you think that's true? I think that's true. I was going to say, you mentioned McEnroe and the other person who comes up in this context is Ilya Nastasi, who is a Romanian player. I'm 54, right? So I was born in 1970. And that golden era of tennis in the 70s and 80s, where you had Borg, well, the male players anyway.

6:19Borg Connors. Borg Connors, McEnroe. And then Nastassi was another who, he was known both for being argumentative and throwing tantrums, but also being a showboat. But, you know, a performer, like he actually would be funny and clown around. And as a kid, like, that was the best thing about tennis was that you had these big personalities, right? You didn't want to see robot-like players. You wanted to see a little bit of a sense of... And even if they lost their shit, if I can put it that way, that was even better, right? Well, of course. That's what sport is. You know, I feel like you hit the nail on the head.

6:54You know, when people come to watch me, it's not so just to see some aggressive and pure tennis. It's also to see the unknown of what could happen, what could I go back home with and talk about my family that's something that I'd never seen before, whether it was good or bad. that I guess that unknown or that question mark is what sells tickets and why people come to my matches because they know that there's something that they might see there that they won't see on 99 % of the tour and I think you can't lose that that's why that's why we love sport that's why I love watching sport because there's different personalities everyone is the same no one would tune in and um I think it's important that we don't kind of bash or criticize these new personalities or different personalities we kind of got to you know embrace them and kind of nurture them so they find their way because everyone can be successful.

7:40I don't think there has to be like a certain type of personality to be successful in tennis or anything, to be honest. You were talking about earlier about how in other sports that behavior would be unremarkable. I think that's true. Like you think about a football match, a player shouting at the ref, getting a yellow, then getting a red maybe. It's quite normal, right? And certainly abusing each other. Again, And it's not encouraged, but you accept that that's how, you know, under pressure, you know, what they regard as a dodgy decision. Their tempers flare up and they'll sometimes fight. In fact, by that metric, tennis is unusually civilized.

8:17Like you don't often see that. You see players fight and being pulled back. I don't think there's been many times. You've never had a physical altercation with a player, have you? No, not at all. And to be honest, whether we might swear or just because there's microphones around the court. So if you swear, obviously, on TV and there might be kids watching, which I understand like to get fined for, but almost just breaking a racket, like breaking a racket has almost been branded as something that I would do McEnroe, like a couple other players, but everyone's broken a racket before, you know, all the top players have broken a racket.

8:48But yeah, as you said, some of the behavior you see that I've done or McEnroe, all these guys, like it's very common in other sports where we're kind of just, oh, no, that's just part of it, you know? Right. Interesting. Yeah. So among other things, among your many accomplishments, you were the star or one of the stars of a Netflix series basically following tennis, sort of in that Drive to Survive format. And I think it's not been renewed, but it ran for a couple of seasons. Anyway, you gave them a lot of access. You kind of let them into your life. What was behind that decision? Yeah, for me, it's very important.

9:27I thought what they did with the Drive to Survive and how much it helped their sport grow. And I felt like, you know, even someone like my partner, who's not into F1 at all, you know, watched a couple episodes just about growing the sport. I think tennis, it needed something to show the world, you know, what we do, how our lives are, how much travel we do. I think it worked for a bit, but for me, I was like, that's one of my goals. One of my goals is to grow the sport as much as possible and get fans that don't like tennis or don't know much about tennis into our sport and I think it's crucial because if you look about other sports and how they're growing tennis is going to get left behind once you know you obviously we've lost Federer already on the brink of losing the Dahl Djokovic is on his way out so you know we're in dying need of to grow the sport and that's what I said to them I was like look I'm going to give you more access than pretty much any other athlete on the tennis tour so just like make sure when you when you're in you you get what you need because it was it was odd sometimes letting them into my house letting them into my my hotel room like my the locker room like it's a bit you know invasion of privacy at times but I knew it was for the greater good because the amount of eyes on the sport after that was was improved for sure do you think that uh tennis is endangered for real like what you know when you look at it like whether it's attendance or viewers or whatnot I have no real sense of it always feels like tennis is just there being tennis you know what i mean yeah i mean i have a sense that it's sort of like gone into the into the background at all no not not not background but like let me ask you this like can you name five other tournaments outside the grand slams um probably no probably not but that that's my point like tennis is played all year round and there's tennis events every week so like the fact that you call yourself a tennis fan so you know australian open french open Wimbledon US Open like tennis needs to do such a better job of marketing our sport and making sure like the there is there are tournaments every single week of the year and if you look at you know EPL or the NBA like the crowds are always packed there's not a seat like left where tennis you can watch an event that's on this week I mean you could tune into the stadium and it'd be half full so it's like I think obviously with the Grand Slams will always be relevant Wimbledon for me is is the holy grail of sport in my eyes as well.

11:52So with those four Grand Sams, it would be incredibly hard for tennis to die off. But the marketing and the players that we've had, I mean, someone as yourself, you would have seen Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Andy Murray. Like these guys were legends of our sport that have carried our sport for 30 years. And once they go, it's going to take a big hit, I think. Interesting. Okay. Now, listen, you said we could talk about anything. And we were talking a little bit about controversies. and okay I'm going to zoom out for a second I know I'm babbling so you're the narrative around you is that you're one of the gift most gifted naturally gifted tennis players of all time but that notwithstanding that or maybe because of that you've underachieved right that you haven't won a grand slam except well as a doubles but not as a singles player and that given your incredible gift like there's all sorts of quotes people saying in tennis saying like he's the most naturally gifted player we've seen in 20, 30, 40 years.

12:48And yet, whether to do with injuries or temperament or just a dislike for tennis that you've talked about, you haven't performed to the level that you are capable of. Do you think that's a fair summary of what the narrative is? Yeah, that's definitely something I've heard my entire career, yeah. Do you have anything to say to that? Of course. I mean, to say that I've underachieved is insanity because I know that what I've gone through in my life and where I've come from and just sitting in this room from Canberra, Australia, the fact that someone sat here and played in front of the royal family is like, for me, that's not an underachievement at all.

13:26I think it's, you know, what I've done in my career and what I've achieved as a person and how I've bounced back from all the negative that I've dealt with and gone through and turned it into a positive and able to help people now and I can give advice to young kids that come up, young fans. I look at that as the biggest overachievement that any athlete can kind of give back. As for a temperament thing, like I think any 19-year-old that got thrown into the deep end at my age with the amount of negativity in social media would have probably dealt with it in a similar way. Definitely could have gone through it a little smoother.

14:02I was very reluctant to get help and to learn about it. So I kind of like prolonged the process of maturing, I guess, because I was just so under the spotlight so much. But look, there's no shame in at the end of the day, not winning a grand slam because 99 % of tennis players don't win a singles grand slam. Andy Murray, Federer, Novak Djokovic, Rafa Nadal, playing in their prime, they occupied a lot of the grand slams. They won 95 % of grand slams. So there's, and I've, beaten them all as well so um yeah that what you what you said to me before that was definitely a an opinion I think that's easily debunked yeah that I appreciate that and in answering that I feel like I got an insight into something uh which is that there's this sort of narrative that's been imposed on you but that from your lived experience obviously you don't just see it differently like it just doesn't measure up to kind of what you feel that you've been up against yeah um I think it kind of maybe maybe it dovetails a little bit with uh some of the um mental health issues that you've dealt with over the years yes well I mean that's also what my mind was going to when you were speaking is that fair yeah yeah definitely and and it's just all like the whole experience coming back down from And coming back from all of that kind of stuff that I've opened up from before and still able to play and do all these amazing things, talk to you on this platform and have my own talk show and just do all the things is for me a massive success in my eyes.

15:40So, yeah, it's just one way of my communication is tennis, in my opinion. Thank you for that. And I hope I didn't annoy you by saying that. No, not at all. Trust me. OK, good. I'm just checking in. I'm just checking in. Of course. So we were going to talk about some of the controversies. So 2015. Yes. Do you know which one I'm going to do? Probably. 2015 at the Rogers Cup in Montreal. Yeah. During one of the changeovers. Yes. I think you said to Stan Warrinka. Yes. Can I say it? Of course. Why not? I don't know why I'm being so tentative. What are you being so tentative for? I don't know. You said, Kokanakis banged your girlfriend.

16:21Sorry to tell you that, mate. Yes. It's just good old-fashioned trash talk that's very good and very necessary in sport. The microphone picked up your comments. Because of it, you were fined$10 ,000. But won the match. But you won the match. Yes. So was that just, that was good, that's sledging. Like, they do that in cricket too, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, it wasn't really, there's a whole story as to why it came out, but I'm not going to blabble on about it, but like. Go on, say it, we got time. No, no, no. Come on. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's just like we were just going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

16:54And, you know, it's just... Was he talking shit to you as well? No, he wasn't really talking shit. But he was trying to hit me in the head with a tennis ball. And I was like, what's this guy's problem? He was trying to hit the ball at you to intimidate you. Yeah, which I love, by the way. I love playing when someone's thinking about doing that to me. It's like, OK, I'm inside there. I'm right where I want to be. Like, I know they're not focusing on their game. And then it just kept boiling over, boiling over. And I was 19 and I said it. And then that's it. Like, big deal. We move forward. You lost the match.

17:24I'll see you next week. Like, whatever. And, yeah, we've seen each other since. We've played each other since. I've got huge respect for him. Hopefully I would say to him, to his face, like, yeah, I've grown up since I was 19 years old. But, yeah, like, I mean, we're all not perfect. Of course. Can we do one more? Sure. All right. Thank you, man. You're being very tolerant. No worries. Because the one I like is that when you get into an argument, the ones I enjoy most is when you get into an argument with someone in the crowd. Oh, yeah, that one's good. They're always good. Because that's next level.

18:00It's like, you know, you can beef with your opponent or indeed beef with the umpire, but some random in the crowd. It feels sort of so beneath you in a way, but actually that makes it even funnier. Yes. I guess it's happened a couple of times. Yes. The most famous one was when, and a lot of people thought you were picking a fight with Ben Stiller. No. But he was just collateral damage. Yes, he was collateral damage. Well, not damage. It was actually a compliment in a way because Ben Stiller is such a good actor and I love him in every single movie he does and I love comedy. So it's like, would I tell Ben Stiller how to act?

18:34No, I wouldn't. Like, I'd leave him alone, so why are you telling me how to play? It was a compliment. And everyone was, you know, it was a compliment. So it wasn't even someone in his party, right? No. They just happened to be sitting near him. Yes, in Exum, yeah. And you were saying, like, look, you can't advise me on how to play tennis. That's like me advising Ben Stiller over here on how to act. It's not my place. Correct. But then one woman actually took you to court because this was at the Grand... Was this at Wimbledon? Yeah, this was at Wimbledon, yeah. At Wimbledon. Just to let you know, I don't think I'm allowed to talk too much about this topic.

19:06Because it resulted in a legal case, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'll say... You don't have to say anything. I'll just say a spectator who happened to be a lawyer called for defamation proceedings after you allegedly said, the one in the dress who looks like she's had about 700 drinks, bro. Yeah. And she took that a miss. Look, I'm not going to condone the behaviour. Like, you know, the future generation and the millions of fans that look up to me and love my game style. Like I want them to remember me as someone that was okay with not being perfect and had a bad day once in a while, but not doing things that leave a bad taste in your mouth.

19:43And those specific incidences, like, yeah, you know, they were, I guess I was young and I was, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm proud of those moments. I wouldn't take them back because I've learned from them. But at the same time, I don't want to like talk about it as if there's every time you go on the court, do something like that. Definitely not. No, no, no, no. Of course. Of course. so you call tennis um one of the loneliest or like a very lonely sport is that right very lonely do you mean the sport or the lifestyle of the of the tours and both or both both i mean really there's so many outlying things in tennis that are so like alien if you told another athlete like they wouldn't understand it like we're on the road for if you play a full schedule someone from australia i'm on the road for eight to nine months a year um every week different hotel and you don't know what time you're going to play indefinitely.

20:38You are adapting to different time zones, different diet. You can either play for an hour and a half at a Grand Slam. You can play for five and a half hours. What other sport doesn't know how long they're going to play for? That's insanity. Even boxing, like you have rounds, you know exactly how long you could go for where tennis, it's so many variables. Because I've often wondered about this. Is it theoretically possible, I know this is ridiculous, but for a tennis match to go on forever? Well, technically. I mean, one went over for three days, yeah. Really? Yeah, one went for three days, yeah.

21:14At Wimbledon, John Isner and Nicholas Mahout, they went for three days because the match went for so long. No other sport would ever know what that feels like, apart from test cricket, I guess. And for me, from Australia, like, you're just away from your family and friends and from a comfortable environment for pretty much like more than seven months. It's like, you know, if you're European or you're American, you kind of lose in a tournament early. You can kind of get one flight home. But in Australia, it's just impossible to do that. It's very lonely. Do a lot of players travel with their, especially if they're younger, I guess, would they travel with their families, with their parents?

21:50Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. But also tennis is a sport where you pay for everything. You subsidize for your coaches, your travel, your parents, your physios, everything, where most sports, it's all subsidized by the governing bodies. So tennis is a tough one. It's probably the hardest sport in the world, in my opinion. Like mentally, you have to be unbelievably tough because you're always traveling. You're never settled. You never have any routine. Physically, you have to be an animal. Look at someone like Novak Djokovic. These guys are some of the most skillful athletes in the world. So it's a brutal sport.

22:21It really is. Is it also the fact that you're out there, I mean, we referred to this a little bit at the beginning, but it's, you know, two people without anyone else really out there to speak to, sort of exposed on the court for hours at a time, just going back and forth and the sort of the strangeness of that, right? Definitely, definitely. I mean, you look at like boxing, for instance, is obviously they have the risk of getting killed. So it's like, it's not really comparable, but every, at the end of a round, they go back to their corner and they kind of, you know, then I don't know what they're hearing.

22:55I've never been in that position, but I guess they have their team in their ear where tennis is like, could be out there for five hours. And it's just like you and your lonely thoughts. It's a bit, gets a bit hectic inside my head. You know, and again, we refer to this, but Andre Agassi, a legend of the game, I've been reading his autobiography, Open, which is well known as a kind of particularly powerful and intimate sports autobiography. Have you looked at that? Yep, yep. He says, like it's one of the opening lines of it, like how much he hates tennis. And it's really shocking in a way to pick it up and think, wow, you dedicated your life, years of dedication and discipline to something that you hate.

23:38it but you've said that you don't really like tennis as well when you say you dislike it what are you thinking about i i've said that i i dislike tennis i have a love-hate relationship with tennis i love competing and there are days where i absolutely love the sport and sometimes i dislike it and i feel like my actions have kind of proven that i don't have the passion for the sport as some other players do like it's interesting that i hear someone like agassi kind of say he doesn't love it because his entire life he played a heavy schedule he played all the time um i think his partner was a professional tennis player so his life is steffi graf right i think he's still with steffi graf she's the mother of his children so like you've kind of molded your whole life with tennis where with mine you can't say that like i've barely played a full schedule for the last eight years of my life i miss tournaments whenever i want to i'm playing basketball i'd rather play basketball when i'm playing tennis my fashion is completely different um i have a life completely outside of tennis so i guess i've kind of like there have been players that have kind of in my eyes gone and said oh i don't like tennis like whatever but then like they're playing every single week like no one's forcing them to play um so like it's hard for me to believe it because i genuinely have like sacrificed my ranking or sacrificed money to just not play because i don't like the sport where these guys they wouldn't miss that for the world so it's interesting like i was reading about and and the things that he was battling um incredible respect for him opening up about it because there are plenty of players and athletes that worldwide that go through those things for sure.

25:08And in fact, he's come to your defense at least once. I think at times when you've come into criticism for behavior, he said something along the lines of, you know, having struggled with things over the years that he could relate to the idea that, well, his analysis was, I think, that the appearance of not caring with sometimes a performance or a projection, a way of protecting yourself because you cared a lot. But I don't even know if that applied in your case because you've also said that it wasn't that you cared a lot, right? Or was it both? Well, yeah, like sometimes I care, but at the same time, I feel like when people just get to know me, they kind of understand where I'm coming from.

25:52It's hard. A player from Australia that has to stay on the road for six and a half months and hasn't seen his family or friends like if I'm not putting my best effort in for one one match and then everyone's criticizing I'm like how can you guys criticize when all the other players they go home every couple of weeks and see their family they have home cooked food they see their mom and dad they see their family and then you have the outside world that couldn't hit three balls over the net saying their piece it's just like it's hard because there's only there's a few people in my position that are professionally from Australia that that have achieved what I what I've done so like it's not about me caring or me not caring sometimes you're just tired like sometimes I'm just tired of being Nick Kyrgios and playing tennis professionally at the highest level and traveling for seven months or doing this and this sometimes I just want to have a little downtime and I think everyone at some stage deserves that.

26:43When you're out doing the different tournaments and you're on the road and presumably you're bumping into the same characters right the other players and their entourages yeah who's in your entourage like how many people is it is it family friends is and then also how much do you socialize and how much of a scene is there like are you all kind of hanging together and stuff or how does it all work well my entourage is extremely small i travel with my like one of my best friends and he's my agent i travel with my partner and my physio so yeah horse yep and your partner's name is my partner costine costine yeah costine and my physio will and my physio will come only every like every so often so my team is you really like two to three people max so like I was you know nearly one Wimbledon with three people and I just love having a small team and doing you know things intimately but tennis is a crazy sport like that like we're all in the same locker room so we see each other eat we eat together we're all in the same cafe so we eat together we shower like everything you're just doing it next to the person that you're about to go out in the gladiator type stadium with millions of people watching worldwide and the stadium's full and then you shake hands you compete for four hours and you just see him right away in the locker room such a strange sport like that well like for instance if you watch rugby or anything like someone would probably die if they went into the same locker room straight after they've played.

28:08Interesting. Yeah, it's wild. Can we talk a little bit about you kind of growing up? I know that part of your story is that maybe you weren't groomed for success in the way that some tennis prodigies have been. You know, there's a certain, again, cliche of the tennis world, which is that, you know, someone usually from a fairly privileged or at least middle class upbringing is identified as having some talent. And then they have kind of tennis parents, right, who invest a lot in making it happen for them and the way is kind of the path is kind of grooved for them to achieve success. It wasn't quite like that for you, right?

28:49No. Like, can you talk a bit about that? Yeah, it was just, you know, I had two older siblings who played tennis growing up. Well, they were trying to play tennis. We had a local tennis centre around the corner. And obviously my first passion was basketball. I had like a basketball hoop outside my house that was wobbly, but I loved playing on it. And then my dad would just take us down to the local centre and play together. And I guess I had like a local coach that kind of came to my parents and said, look, he's got like a bit of a different eye for things, like he's picking up things a little faster than the usual kid at his age.

29:24How old would you have been? Maybe like nine, nine or ten. That's when I really, I guess I was the top of my age in Canberra or Australia. I was definitely competing. And then, yeah, I mean, my mom and my dad, whoever was taking me to tournaments, we were driving six to eight hours across the country, staying in backpackers. My mom would warm me up mac and cheese macaroni from Woolworths. And then when I was traveling with my older siblings, we had like a$20 budget for dinner. So we were staying in caravan parks. But at the same time, I thought it was the best fun ever. by the way. Like, I loved it.

30:06And we were just playing local tournaments around the country and I was doing relatively well. My siblings started to drop off a little bit, so they kind of just said, look, like, this kid's beaten us at, like, 11 or 12, so maybe we should just... Where did you come in the birth order? I was the youngest. You were the youngest. And I should reflect the fact that your dad has Greek heritage. Yeah. He was a house painter. Where was he from? Was he come over from Greece? Yeah, Greece. He came by boat in 1965. From whereabouts? Yeah, I mean, like a little island in Greece. He came by boat with his mum and his younger brother.

30:40And he speaks Greek, of course. Do you speak Greek? No, I don't speak Greek. My partner speaks fluent Greek and can understand it, but I can't speak it. My two siblings can. They went to Greek school. I went to Greek school. Do you feel connected to your Greek heritage? Yeah, yeah, big time, big time, big time. I feel connected to my Greek heritage. I lived in Melbourne for two years, and that's the second largest Greek city outside of Athens. So every time I played the Australian Open down there, it was like, it was incredible. Like I feel enormous amounts of support from the Greek community wherever I go.

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31:14And your mum is of Malaysian heritage. Yep. Whereabouts in Malaysia? Well, her family is mainly from KL, but then there's like a bunch of them from Penang as well. And we actually went to... Kuala Lumpur. Yeah, KL is the... that's where most of her family's from but she came she was about an hour and a half um in a village that we actually went to go village and i'm talking like pure slum city like my mom was from like she probably grew up in like a wooden shack and she probably thought that was the best thing ever so that was like seeing where she grew up um me and my sister actually went there with her and then we just stood around and that's what i'm saying when people say like that i've underachieved in my career i'm like my mom grew up in like a wooden shack and my dad came by boat But is it really underachieving or is it just like finding a way through all this mess and then making it work?

32:02Yeah, I mean, and I think that underachieving thing is intended as a, maybe it feels like a backhanded compliment. There's a tennis metaphor. But I think it's supposed to be saying, oh, my God, this guy is fun. He doesn't seem to even try that hard, which may or may not be. And he's doing these incredible shots, right? Well, I guess that's the case, though, because it's not easy. like it's not like I just picked out a like professional tennis player from a hat and that was my life it was like I've worked 10 times harder than majority of people in people in tennis do you think or majority anywhere or majority people anywhere like I mean if someone did my day of training they would be in hospital for sure you know what I mean like if they don't see what I do every day and maybe it speaks to your style of play right because some of the things that you're known for like i learned this word yesterday the tweenie the tweenie tweener tween that's hilarious yeah i mean yeah just a little shot that i play from time to time like it's not you know it's not that it's not that special it's between the legs it looks magical i'd never seen one i don't think or at least maybe i had but i'd forgotten until i federer federer played it a fair bit.

33:18Did he? He's the original genius. For the listeners explain what a, I call it a tweenie. Tweenie's good, I actually like that, calling it tweenie's better. It's so embarrassing. Explain for the listeners what the tweener is. Just when you let the ball drop between your legs and you just put the racket between your legs and hit it and it looks crazy, it gets the crowd you know, they think it's the most amazing thing ever. It's very easy. I could teach you 100 % Really? Mm-hmm And also an underarm serve Yeah Which again I didn't know that was a real thing Yeah it's not a real thing I made it a real thing And then a lot of players play it now When they want to play it And it's good It's a good mix up It keeps the other person guessing And it's like whoa what the hell is he doing This is a professional tennis match It's completely legal though When did you first do it?

34:13I did it against Nadal I did it against Nadal Really? Well, because he's known for returning the ball really far back in the court, so it's hard to get a free point. So I was just like, I need to do something to get this guy out of this rhythm, and I did it. And the whole tennis world called me really disrespectful, but I won the match, so I found a way. Had you done one before you did it against Nadal? I'd done one before, but probably not on that big stage and not with that many eyes on me. And people thought it was disrespectful. Yeah, they were like, how could he do that? The tennis gods are shaking in their boots.

34:50Right.

34:53Your announcement, when you were kind of announced to the world as an incredible talent, it was 2014, right? Yeah, yeah. I was a teenager. Yeah, I was a teenager. 19 years old, yeah. Yeah, and then I was playing Nadal's fourth round of Wimbledon and he was world number one at the time and I beat him and everything kind of just went crazy after that. You've talked about that quite a bit and in your story it feels like just one of the real milestones, but you've also talked about the way in which that was, well, destabilising, that it had an impact on you, your family. um yeah it was it was a crazy can you explain that a bit like because obviously from the outside there's a glib interpretation which said well this was your arrival at how amazing like you could surf that and and you know suddenly all these doors are open to you i'm sure sponsorship deals were coming your way and and whatnot but explain how you experienced it from the inside oh well still um i was just a kid like i got back home and there were people piling up at the airport the cameras in my face and there were people camping outside my house for like 14 days um reporters or fans just everything everyone um it was just a lot like i don't think my my i wasn't ready for it but my family most definitely wasn't ready for it especially when they came from and their background there it was hard for all of us to kind of understand what was going on um and Yeah, I guess I wasn't ready for the mass and the sea of opinions because I'm quite sensory.

36:37I take everything quite personally and I absorb everything. So it was hard, but, you know. When you say opinions, what do you mean? Was there criticism at that time? Oh, just whether it was negative and negative or, you know, negative comments, positive comments. There were a lot of eyes. Just being in the spotlight wasn't easy. yeah it wasn't easy especially being from Australia like it wasn't easy because you know tennis is such a it's always such a rich culture here so there's a lot of expectations and they want they just tennis just Australia just wants a new tennis champion that's all they want right Australians Australians love sports okay I'm going to go on a limb and say make a wild generalisation but we know Australia's well known for its sporting culture right yes you just need to look at the Olympics in Australia, a nation of, what is it, 25 million?

37:29Yeah. Something like that. There they are, like top of the medal rankings or top three, four. So it's got an incredible sporting culture, which must be, I think this is what you're saying, mixed blessing if you are the recipient of all that attention and all those hopes are invested in you. That's a lot to think about, a lot of pressure. What's your, I think this is a really big question, but what's your relationship with Australia? I think you're very loved over there. Now, I mean, the start of my career, it was mixed, very mixed. And in the middle stages of my career, it was probably more so negative.

38:03But I think the last two, three years of my career, it's definitely changed. I feel like the nation is definitely on my side. And I feel like they've gotten to know me more and just realize that I'm authentic and genuine. And yes, I'm rough around the edges sometimes. But I feel like, yeah, my relationship with Australia now is much better than what it used to be. That's for sure. And like, yeah, I think people tend to forget like I've grown up here my entire life. So I'm very Aussie. You've said in the past, maybe this was 2024, I wanted to play for my country. I can't say that I still have that desire.

38:39And let's be honest, I haven't exactly felt like Australia has wanted me to represent it either. I've said before, I often feel more at home away from home. yeah yeah I mean when I play in London or when I play in the States that's where my home is you know when I'm playing in front of thousands in Wimbledon and when I'm in Arthur Ashe Stadium in New York the fans go absolutely berserk um and I feel like the love there is honestly greater and that's not a shot on Australia or anything but I feel way more loved in the States and way more loved in at Wimbledon when I made that run to the final um and yeah that was just a that was a weird time in my career because I had arguably one of the best seasons in the world I went 61 and 10 um what does that mean 61 wins and 10 losses in a season I had the third best season in in the world behind like Alcaraz and Novak Djokovic what year was this 2022 when I made the final and we gave we gave out an award in Australia to the best Australian tennis player that didn't go to me that year and I was just like um it's a bit odd but at the same time like whatever like it didn't make or break me I'm just saying like the relationship is like who did it go to it went to Ash Barty and she played one tournament that year yeah what do you make of that oh well I'm just saying like I'm just saying like my relationship with Australia hasn't always been like amazing so it's like what do you make of it in the sense of like how do you make sense of that like what what's going on there do you think?

40:10I don't know, you tell me I can't say things that I want to say all the time but at the same time Why can't you? Because you know it's bad PR No, but what she's achieved is amazing Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to sit here and say I've had a better career No, of course not, she's won multiple Grand Slam She's arguably one of the greatest Australian tennis players to ever live She's achieved tenfold what I've achieved, but that particular year the third best season walking on the planet behind Alcaraz and Djokovic it's a bit odd. But I also feel that in Australia they also love someone who's a little bit got rough edges, you know, like that culture of Ned Kelly, you know, I'm going back into history now, the larrikin, you know, the guy who's not going to take any shit, mate, there's my Australian accent for you, you know, who's not stuck up, he's a man of the people.

41:02I feel like that conforms to a certain Australian archetype as well. yeah I mean it does for sure I mean as I said like I think Aussies they love a competitor they love watching sport and I've trust me some some parts of my career I felt extremely loved here when I've put on some amazing performances at the Australian Open and one I've won tournaments in Australia so I definitely felt the love here I've definitely felt I haven't felt the love all the time though like that's for sure you know we we love hanging our athletes out to dry here from time to time um and i just feel like we could do better a bit better than that you know a lot of our athletes go through a lot and we can guide them a bit better and you know that's why i'm always happy to stand up for an athlete you know say when novak came to australia and the way he was getting treated i stood up for him then like i think australia has has some improvement to do you stood up for him when he came when there was the big hoo-ha over what he wouldn't get the vax and then he was getting kicked out of our country and they put him in a refugee hotel Jeez.

42:04Yeah. Why was he being kicked out? Because he didn't get vaccinated and he wouldn't, yeah. And you stood up for him? Yeah, just more so the standing up for, I don't think we can put the greatest athlete of all time in a refugee hotel. I mean, I don't know. And did you get shit for that? Yeah, I mean, half of the country kind of agreed with me and half of the country didn't. So it was a tough situation. I put myself on the chopping board, but I just... And me and Novak didn't really have a great relationship at all as well before that. So I just stood up for the guy. I felt like he needed a voice and I gave it to him.

42:40Do you think there's a racism factor in there as well? Big time. You've also said that Australia is one of the most racist countries in the world. Of course there is. One of our sporting legends told me and my family to go back to where we came from. It's arguably the most racist thing I've ever heard in my life. Of course there's racism. Are we going to put her name out there? I don't care, but I'm just saying, like... Dawn Fraser, 86 years old, eight-time medalist and world record holder. That's what I'm saying. There have been times in my career where, for my relationship with this, how am I going to go represent a country that one of our greatest sporting ambassadors tells you that?

43:17Did she... I think she apologised. Yeah, but a sorry doesn't always fix things, does it? Not always. Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. Like, look, every time I go overseas and commentate, every time I do these interviews with some of the biggest names in the world. I'm Australian. I represent them every day, even though I'm not healthy at the moment playing. I represent this country every day whether I'm doing things globally. I'm known as the Australian. So, yeah, I feel like I've represented this country a lot. I will be representing this country for the rest of my life. I'd hope. If they came to you tomorrow and said, and you were fit, and we want you to represent Australia, as far as if they buried the hatchet, if I can put it like that, then for you it's like, were you looking for something more than them saying, okay, we'll have you now?

44:04I would play. For sure I would play. I would want a bit more of a former, you know, just something, of course, not just, oh, okay, we want you now. It's like, that's not how it works. What would it be, do you think? I don't know. You're doing a lot of breathing and a lot of thinking. I'm trying to listen. and think about what you've said.

44:30And, yeah, I am. I'm known for my breathing and thinking. Okay, I think I've got it. You feel like there needs to be a conversation. Yeah, of course there does. You can't tell me to go back to where I came from and then expect me to play for the country. Yeah.

45:09When you were on the tour, and this would have been before you were obviously happily settled with your girlfriend, are there groupies? 100 % definitely. Come on now. Go on. I told you I wasn't going to hide. Yeah, of course there are. Talk about that. that's a very broad question what would you like me to talk about that like what specifically do they you know like in wrestling i think they're called ring rats do they have a name in tennis i don't i know i i don't i don't classify girls with those sort of names but yes there are fans that are very very into the sport very into the sport jesus why are you you're crazy you want to You're not giving me anything.

45:51What are you for? Yeah, well, I'm PR trained now. I'm on my best behaviour. You got me on the worst side of my career. I'm no fun anymore. They're very into the sport and they love to... They like to learn tennis one-on-one. There you go. They like to get to know the athletes. You're hilarious. But there isn't a name that you wouldn't use. I mean, I wouldn't say ring rats. That's offensive. Yeah. I don't know. I'm out of the game, man. They're not called like tennis bunnies or... No, no, no. No. You're not going to get it. I'm not going to give it... I'm not giving you something. I'm not going to give it to you.

46:28They trained you well. They trained me well, yeah. Conspiracy theories. Yes. Conspiracy theories. What would you like to ask me? You don't think the pyramids were built by humans? No, I don't. Impossible. Do you? Definitely. how so well as opposed to who i i mean i just think they rolled huge blocks around on logs that's insanity the fact that how's that possible they got every measurement correct and they're all aligned and they did it with rolling large stones on logs is an insane statement why the door's so big like what who needs to walk through the doors if they're that big i don't know i don't i don't know who it was i just don't think that we were capable It's 2024 and we can't even all get along and you think that we built the pyramids.

47:23You're insane. That's insanity stuff. What about learning on the moon? I have my thoughts on it. What are your thoughts on it? Well, obviously I think we landed on the moon, as in humans. Who, who, who, who landed on the moon? Do you think that the Americans did first? Is that a trick question? I'm just asking you. Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin and the other guys whose names we've forgotten. Okay. But obviously it was of the first Apollo mission, it was those two. And then Michael Collins stayed in the thing, in the spaceship. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a lot of interesting stuff there. Come on.

48:02So where are you with it? Oh, I just, I don't know. I'm not going to answer any more questions. I just think like it was interesting the Americans did it first because they had not one successful rocket that ever took off and then all of a sudden they were on the moon. You can read about it. They had not one successful rocket takeoff and then all of a sudden they were just on the moon. You said it's a conspiracy theory, so I'm just going with it. Give me another one. No, I'm not going to because this is going to go out. Maybe they're going to come to my house and raid my house or something. I'm not doing this anymore.

48:35What about the Earth is round or flat? You go first. The Earth is round. It's round? Yeah, it's a globe. I'd probably be inclined to saying it's round. But I'm also not surprised if it was the other thing either. Maybe we need to have a beer and have this off record. Really? How deep does this thing go? It goes deep. All the way down? Is this what you do all the time? You talk about conspiracy theories at the end? No, this is a first for me. Oh, so you just did this with me? Yeah. Only because, well, but it's quite unusual that we have a guest who's on record as saying they've got doubts about the pyramids, but they might all believe that.

49:22All my guests, as far as I know. I could guarantee you that some of your guests would have that belief. Do you spend a lot of time on the internet? No, I don't. I just think that... I feel like you're on there a little bit. No, I'm on there. I'm on X. I'm not on Google searching about things. Yeah, X. That's what I mean, X. Sometimes, like I'm on there when I see and hear about controversy, I like going on there because I like to keep up with it all. I'm a commentator now. You didn't exactly pick a fight, but then the media spun it that you picked a fight with the Hawk Tour girl. I did not pick a fight with her.

50:01This guy. I did not pick a fight with a Hawk Tour girl.

50:08That was the best. All I said, I just think it's very cringeworthy that someone can do that and then like all of a sudden like is you know i guess famous is doesn't that prove like what i'm saying like there was a time where someone like you had to work very hard to get to where you are today your platform people respect you because you're good at something just like my i spent my whole life practicing day in day out being the best in the world mastering a craft and getting good at something where now i could just do an interview about huck-turing someone's and then becoming famous. Penis. You don't see anything wrong with that.

50:42You don't see anything, not wrong with it, but something a bit strange about the world we live in today, day and age. Conspiracy theories though, right? Well, I don't know if that relates or not, but I think there's a part of you that is an outsider, a maverick, a disruptor, right? And then there's another part of you, maybe there's overlap here, but is representing something more traditional, like a sense of certain norms, like of morality and culture. Can I put it that way? Of course, definitely. Definitely. I feel maybe you touched the water. Did you touch the electric fence too many times?

51:20You don't really care though, like in your heart, like in the sense that you're not really worried on a personal level. It's not that you think that... Of course not. I'm not worried on a personal level, but I know I've spoken my mind a lot and it can sometimes lead me to places where it's clean up for other people and I don't want to make their life hard and I don't want to cause a scene. Like it's too much attention on those things already at the moment and I've got a lot of things that I've worked hard for at the moment and it's just not worth being controversial over. Like it's just not going to change anything.

51:54Yeah. For instance, if I wear a hoodie at BBC, the whole world goes wild. Oh no, he can't bring his sort of fashion into BBC in the tennis world. Why could he do that? They would expect me to wear a suit. Why would I wear a suit? But then on the final, I wore a suit. I surprised them all. What about, because in a way, this is the whole dichotomy. There's a part of you that loves Wimbledon. I'm speaking for you. Correct me if I'm wrong. The tradition, the sense of occasion, everyone has to wear white. If you don't, you get fined. You have to be very quiet. There's a sense like you dress up. It's one of the few times when I would have put on a suit, you know weddings funerals and Wimbledon because it's just what you do and at the same time there's a part of you that I think there's probably that loves that and a part of you that actually wants to disrupt it uh no I don't want to disrupt it I think there could be other spins on it I think that no one has to wear a college shirt I don't think everyone has to wear a college shirt where that's why I wore a tight white shirt with a white tank shirt I wore all white I just did it my way I think there are other ways to wear all white.

53:02And I think if, you know, you have a 15-year-old, you say if he or she, I didn't... I've got three boys, 18, 16 and nine. So if they were to turn on the TV and watch tennis and they were watching commentary, do you think they'd be more inclined to keep the TV on if they saw me wearing what I would wear with my style that's more relatable with them or watch four old white dudes with a suit on? you know the answer to the question yeah yeah i mean you're right that's my point like it's it's you you can't just like i understand the tradition of it but like the world is changing like sport is changing like we need new fans like i'm just saying like if you can incorporate other things to make the event cooler and more appealing to other people like i'm not like yeah i'm not a criminal no but do you feel like the world sees you as a criminal no no no no they don't i'm just saying like because when i rocked up in my my outfit the first day they were like how could he but my insights were the best so you've got a lot of love for your punditry of course i that's all i've done since i was seven years old i've played against these people i see them more than my family of course my punditry was going to be good you know them inside out exactly how How are you doing?

54:21I feel like, I mean, I can keep going. How's your energy? I'm okay. I mean, I don't even know how long we're supposed to go for. Because I wouldn't mind, like, I feel like we got to an interesting place that was quite awkward, which I enjoyed. If we dial out, you know, one of the surprising things in reading about you is how serious your, are you all right talking about mental health stuff? Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's how serious your mental health stuff over the years has been, right? Like it wasn't, you know, the stress and strain and whatnot, but correct me if I'm wrong. that basically you've been through periods of extreme, well, depression, I guess, certainly self-harm, and even I've read suicidal ideation.

55:01Was 2019, was that the worst year? Yeah, that was a bad period, yeah. Can you shed any light on what was going on with you at that time? I guess I was just struggling with being who I was, was hard at that time, and I was playing. I didn't feel like I could take a step back from the sport and kind of work on myself and get myself in the right headspace. I was just playing and playing and playing and kind of dealing with everything. And it was just, yeah, it was a dark time. Like I was drinking and just I was spiraling out of control and I was continuing to play and travel. It was a lot, yeah. You say drinking.

55:42Whenever I read you say like, oh, I was drinking every day, I'm thinking, well, I'm not a professional athlete, obviously, but, you know, I like a drink. Like, drinking every day, if it's a couple of glasses of wine... 20 or 30. 20 or 30. 20 or 30 what? Drinks. In a night? Easy. I drink like a fish. What was your tipple of choice? Anything. Vodka, anything. Right. So it wasn't just drinking. It was, like, fully getting loaded. Yeah. But then just wake up and play Nadal the next day. Give him a good run for his money. For real. Wow. It was pretty hectic, but I was good. If you were drinking on tour, would you have been drinking on your own?

56:24Most of the time, yeah. Sometimes, I mean, if like another player or something wanted to, but rarely, very rarely. And then was there a moment when you hit bottom or how did it all, how did you come? I mean, in a sense, or is it a misnomer to imagine that like, you don't sort of come out of that and be like, there's not one day when you're like, oh, I'm fine now. no there was just I just needed to fix a lot of relationships in my life and just be happy again I just hated traveling I hated playing I hated training I hated just doing anything that was basically my responsibility um so yeah it was a hard it was a hard time um but yeah I had great people around me great people around me they could see you were going off the deep end or was it really because you were drinking more than usual because I imagine you'd always like to drink yeah just yeah but just like I was like an autopilot I was not fun to be around I was just like you know it was just yeah it was just not me I was just so like rude mean blunt like just I was just not a nice person and I was just downward spiral and yeah they just turned it around and then Andy Murray was someone who noticed that you had cuts on your forearms yeah it was pretty hectic how did that happen um just just sharp things yeah it was just yeah it was got bored and then I guess just doing things like that and then he noticed it and I mean I obviously couldn't go on center court of Wimbledon with it so I had to put like a sleeve on um yeah no one noticed it felt at the time like that was another way of kind of relieving your stress like it just that was horrible I mean I almost like kind of enjoyed feeling that way and that's when I knew I had to get out of it yeah it's been said that it's a way of making your outside match your inside like a sense that like that's a good pain kind of yeah that's a good analogy do you trace that back to your childhood at all no my There's no forerunner events.

58:30No, I just felt like I was, I didn't deal with all of the outside noise. Well, I always felt like I was letting people down and I just didn't want to be like Nick Kyrgios and go train. And tennis was the head of the snake in the stress. And then it was just like, I couldn't wait to get home and start just like drinking. And it was a bad lifestyle. Waking up, always in autopilot, not having good conversations, not excited for anything, not appreciating small things. just like yeah just it was just a bad time and then at a certain point you you you got some help right you in fact you were institutionalized if I can put it that way you certainly you were we did you do some residential treatment yeah well I did for one day and then I had to play nadal the next day so I didn't really have time up my sleeve so you went straight from was it a kind of a clinic a hospital a kind of rehab yeah it was like that well they would wanted me to stay for a bit but I was like I have other duties that I need to fulfill yeah that's wild I nearly got him though I nearly beat him which was this 2019 yeah how many sets was it four seven six in the fourth set nearly had him that's wild that's almost surreal yeah it's pretty crazy it was a crazy time man it was I look back at it and I was like I'm so glad I'm not at that point in my life I was probably it's hard it was hard but I had good people around me what do you think helped I I mean, I know good people around you, but was there any lesson that you took away from it?

59:59Well, not just that. It's just like even when fans come up to me and they look at me as if I'm the best thing ever and they're like, oh, we need, what do you think on this? Or a little bit of advice or just want a signature. Like that stuff's eye-opening. When you have that, when that's your lifestyle every single day, you've got to be a bit less selfish, you know? Can't be so internal all the time. Yeah. Ah. There was no particular habit. I mean, you cut down on the drinking or did you kick it altogether? No, no, I still drink. But I just, yeah, I don't go just like crazy on it. I still have fun.

1:00:34All of those, so all of those little, you made a number of small changes that added up to kind of a new outlook. Yeah. Yeah, just, yeah, exactly. But I think, you know, my family, my best friend, my agent, and they were the biggest immediate help. And then obviously I've got a great partner now who understands my lifestyle, how hard it is, and that she's miles better than any female I've ever met. And I just enjoy my life now. I'm excited to do things. I move with purpose now, which is, that was not how it was back then. Is that still a date? Do you check in with your mental health? Do you feel like in a good place generally now?

1:01:15No, I mean, I have fired it most days. I don't wake up feeling amazing and I don't... I feel like I know my steps to get me out of my bad thinking now. I feel like I could go back into those habits in an instant. That's how it feels. I feel like I could do those things, but I don't want to. Before, I didn't have any resistance. I don't want to do that now. you know when you check wikipedia it says uh tennis player inactive right i don't know if that's a technical term or it just means you're not playing at the moment when was the last time you played competitively i played a match last year um and that was just like my first match back since my knee surgery and then i played that match and my knee wasn't ready and then i ended up finding out that my wrist needed surgery um so it was actually a blessing in disguise because if i'd taken more time for my knee, I would have come back and actually would have just sent me back longer.

1:02:14But I wouldn't say I'm inactive now. Like I could come back now and beat 50 % of players. But I'm just not, I don't want to do that. I want to come back because my fans deserve a better, like a better version of myself that I am now on the court. And I want to go out there competing for tournaments. Like when you made the finals of Wimbledon, you're making quarterfinals of grand slams and you're winning events you want to go back knowingly thinking that you can have a chance and have a shot at winning these these I don't want to just participate and I know the world's not going to be nice on me when I come back they're not they're going to all of a sudden forget that I was out for a year and a half with injuries they're just going to think that it's the Nick Kyrgios that has all the expectation again so and and and when he loses it's it's not okay so I know that I'm going to have to be resilient mentally and physically but I'm in a great great space on court now like I've had the best two days since my wrist reconstruction 10 months ago and today on court was amazing so I'm super confident in three weeks I could potentially play you know doubles at the US Open we'll see so it'll be good.

1:03:23So you might be playing as soon as the US Open because you've got a few you're 29 right got a few years in you potentially you definitely feel like you are going to come back it's not like in terms of singles you've not retired from singles no no but at the same time like I look at how Andy Murray is doing it now and how Rapha is going out I don't want to be like that either I don't want to be kind of crawling to the finish line in a sense like what Andy Murray's achieved in this sport is second to basically no one like unless you're Novak Federer and Adal like the next person is Andy Murray it's like you've achieved everything you deserve to go out I think a little bit grace more gracefully than he's done i think like that the surgeries that the pain it's not worth it in my opinion like you've achieved everything i don't want to do that because i know how hard like have a serious surgery and the recovery is like it's not easy at all i know what he's going through so it's like i can't i don't want to go out like that i would i'd rather go out knowing that i gave the people a good glimpse of my peak and then you know played a good year or two and and I'm okay after that.

1:04:30I don't have to go out and scrape the barrel of every single tennis ball ever. It's kind of that winner's mindset. Definitely. It's the love and obsession that they have too that I don't have. That's obviously what's made them super successful and that's why Andy Murray is Andy Murray because he's obsessed. He can't live without the sport and that's special but that's just not me either. No. you're that way about conspiracy theories yeah no you i think you are because you keep mentioning it oh man i really enjoyed talking to you nick thank you i appreciate that no worries it was fun

1:05:23Hello again, welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that. I did. Thank you to Nick for taking time out to speak to me. Looking back, he was obviously more guarded in some respects than he has been in the past in the sense that he's got a reputation to keep up. He's doing broadcasting and clearly doesn't want to damage his relationships, which I well understand. I also noticed that, I don't know if you noticed this out there in Radioland, he seems to yawn when he's uncomfortable. So make of that what you will. I mentioned the Andre Agassi autobiography, which I since finished, which is called Open. I totally recommend it as an insight into the loneliness and the all-devouring quality of being a professional tennis player.

1:06:15Anyway, it's very well written and well worth the read. And Ghost, written by the man who also ghost-wrote Prince Harry's memoir. Fun fact. It's also worth saying that Andy Murray came up in the conversation and he has, of course, since retired from tennis. so we wish him all the best Andy Murray into the future good luck with all your endeavours despite mentioning his hope for playing at the US Open this year that didn't happen for Nick he conducted the on-court post-match interviews with players throughout the tournament though we spoke about his on-court confrontation where he incorrectly accused a spectator of being drunk It's worth noting he settled a legal case with The Spectator.

1:07:07I think I might have mentioned that. And apologised for his comments and donated£20 ,000 to the Great Ormond Street Hospital charity. OK, on to conspiracy theories. Nick said, I guarantee some of your guests believe the pyramids are not man-made. I can't speak to that. I can guarantee you, pretty well, that they are man-made. The Egyptians had an advanced civilisation. They knew about geometry. They knew about all kinds of things. Astronomy. They didn't have the wheel. They had logs. They had slaves, right? So you take 10 ,000 slaves and a block of rock and you roll it around on a log. Okay, end of the mystery.

1:07:51Moon landing fact check Nick said it was interesting the Americans did it first Because they had not one successful rocket That ever took off And then all of a sudden they were on the moon Okay that isn't true with all due respect to Nick They had a number of successful rockets In fact I'm going to read you what it says Project Mercury Had six human piloted flights And eight automated flights All of them successful Between 58 and 63 There were also the four successful Apollo missions before Apollo 11. OK, Dawn Fraser, the swimmer who told Nick and his family to go back where they came from. She did, in fact, apologise.

1:08:32I think I said that in the chat. She said, I want to unreservedly apologise for any comments I made this morning, which may have caused offence to my fellow Australians, including Nick and his family. She went on to say, my intended message, which was not delivered as articulately as it could have been, was on a purely sporting level rather than meant as an attack on Nick's ethnicity. So there you have it. If you're interested in learning more about tennis or just soaking your eyes in some classic matches from the golden age of tennis, you could check out Gods of Tennis on iPlayer in the UK and PBS in the US.

1:09:06Yes, it was made by my production company. It's a shameless plug. We'll put a link in the show notes. I think that's it. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

From the publisher

In this episode, Louis is joined by tennis ‘bad boy’ Nick Kyrgios. Beaming in from his home in Canberra, Australia, the pair discuss his love/hate relationship with the sport that made him famous, his well-publicised mental health battles and internet conspiracy theories.

Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.

Links/Attachments:

Good Trouble with Nick Kyrgios (Podcast)
https://open.spotify.com/show/7iswYJAWYkeXLOmgSvlNlh?si=564f42f9346e4407

Break Point (Netflix)
https://www.netflix.com/title/81569920

Open: An Autobiography, Andre Agassi (2010)
https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/open-an-autobiography-andre-agassi?variant=32545747468366

Gods of Tennis (iPlayer, UK only)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0fd5qk1

Credits:
Producer: Millie Chu 
Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill
Production Manager: Francesca Bassett 
Music: Miguel D’Oliveira 
Audio Mixer: Tom Guest
Video Mixer: Scott Edwards
Executive Producer: Arron Fellows 
  
A Mindhouse Production for Spotify 
www.mindhouse.co.uk 
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