S4 EP1: Willem Dafoe on collaborating with Lars Von Trier, being buried alive, and his 'distinctive face’

28:38It's creepy to imagine that Bobby Peru is sitting across from me even as I speak. Bobby Peru is also sitting across from me. No, I've got to believe that. You know, we're all capable of any kind of behavior. We are. We are, given the right circumstances. I wish. I need more Bobby Peru in there. Well, cultivate it, baby. Yeah, do you think so? Yeah, do get to work. That's the work. That's interesting. To let that little devil come out. Wow, I'm going to sit with that for a second. No, I really believe that somehow because I've seen it in my life. I've seen it in my life. people can really surprise themselves and are capable of any behavior.

29:18Look at history. Big time. I mean, I agree. Look at some big shockers there. The Nietzsche quote is... No, actually, I won't do that. Do it. I want to hear it. We don't have to do anything with it, but I'm always happy to hear a Nietzsche quote. Because madness in individuals is rare, but in periods of time, in nations, in religions, in something, it's the norm. I.e. we're all involved in forms of organized madness and that the behavior that we pathologize is much more a part of us than we care to recognize. Okay. Does that kind of make sense? That's part of our conversation. I don't think that was relevant at all.

30:18Because you're an illustrious guest, I went into overcompensation mode and I watched a ton of your films to make sure I was well prepared. How was that? It was great. Did you see Antichrist? Yes. Why did you go there? It's a good one, because that's a good one and I don't think people know it. That's the one I was going to land on. So I watched... So we're in sync, baby. Florida Project, Poor Things. Good. Shadow of the Vampire. Good. I'm curious to know if there's one that I'm going to say. As I started saying good, I thought, what if you get some stinker? Now I'm going to say Body of Evidence.

30:53You know, every time I come to the UK, they give me a hard time about Body of Evidence. Do they? But if I'm in a Latin American country, they love it. For people who don't know, it was the movie you made with Madonna. Yeah. It was kind of post-Basic Instinct and it was in a somewhat similar vibe. It was and it was for people that didn't care for it, they thought it was like a knockoff of that. I don't think that was it. It was kind of an old-fashioned courtroom drama thing with this sex spin on it. And Madonna was at the height of her, you know, she was doing her sex book then. While we would do it, she was preparing her sex book.

31:34She was at the height of her sexiness. And I think, I don't know, I won't judge the movie, but some people like it, some people don't. What can I say? She dripped hot wax on your nipples? Yeah, but that's no big deal. Was it real? Yes, but that's no big deal. I've done a lot worse. I mean, I'm not talking sex things. I mean, I've done much more difficult things in movies than that. I feel like the reviews were savage. I don't feel like that. They were. But I feel as though in some respects you were collateral damage in a pile on directed at Madonna, that she was, as you said, at the height of her sexiness in every sense.

32:17She was catnip for the tabloids. Yeah. And that anything she touched. And if she was seen as trespassing in movies as a sort of creature of music, an interloper, and the movie wasn't perfection, then there would be hell to pay. I guess in a serious mode, though, because you were actually on an amazing trajectory of films. And it felt like it was intended as a big, successful, obviously, Hollywood film. It was actually quite a modest film. But I think it did okay, but did you feel in any way... It must have hurt a bit. Because where I was going to go... I mean, you get the idea. Yeah. I was there.

32:59I did it. Some people like it, some people don't. There's other movies to talk about. Shadow of the... Where did I get... I put that in there to be cheeky. Actually, it was where I was going to go. Shadow of the Vampire, The Lighthouse, I watched last night. I liked that one. Directed by Robert Eggers. Robert Eggers, who was a great director. Who'd made The Witch, which I also loved. And I just did Nosferatu with him. Okay. And The Northman. So you've done three now. Yeah, yeah. And just to finish up, and I watched adverts for Birdseye, Fish Fingers, Snickers, a brand of car and a brand of whiskey.

33:33Yeah. What is it? Why don't you just watch the movies? The ads were pretty good too. Good. I think we were going to arrive at Antichrist, which for me was, all of those movies have their merits, but Antichrist is something special because Lars von Trier personifies the trickster, the imp of cinema, like he's both a visionary, a provocateur. I have a huge soft spot for him. I do too. No, I just like the movie because I think it touches, it gets misidentified, I think. because of some of its extremeness. But I think it really speaks to interesting things about women's power, men's fear of women, the struggle between the logical and the magical in life.

34:26There's lots of sexual politics in it, and it's not about misogyny at all. I think he identifies with the women more than the man. I can tell you that because I play the straight logical one in the movie. But I think he has a... He's genuinely curious and he's a great filmmaker. So he... You know, the opening of that movie and the epilogue of that movie is great cinema. Did it surprise you that it was divisive? I was a little surprised. Listen, for cinephiles and for people that I'm interested in and have good dialogues with, If they were interested in this movie, it's not set up as a crowd pleaser.

35:13A romp? No, it ain't. But you know what? Neither is it a kind of dry... No, it's got lots of fun stuff in it. It's plenty of action. Yeah, yeah. And actually, there's two things about it that I could imagine put people off. One is there are explicit scenes of genital mutilation. Yeah, that sounds terrible. But in context, it's pretty satisfying. mind not the word i had in mind but definitely it feels like it's listen there's this problem where we reduce these things that are very complex to kind of uh the warts you know yeah and then that's what goes out it's particularly a problem as uh real film criticism disappears and gives way to, you know, short form and TikTok and influencers and all that.

36:03There's not the dialogue that some films of sophistication deserve. And you can say, ah, shut up, you know, be an actor, make a movie, you know. But I think it's a problem because it's a star of cinema a little bit. The high-minded cinema, that actually makes way for the popular cinema because I always feel like there is a... Remember Reagan? You know, drip down economics or whatever. For sure, yeah. I think the Lars von Trier's of the world... Look, Lars, the fluid camera, you know, that he used on something like Breaking the Waves, that trickled down and becomes a standard for a lot of, you know, series now.

36:46I like that. It's almost like the Overton window of artistry gets pulled a little bit and more things become... It kind of refreshes the vocabulary and the grammar of all filmmaking. Absolutely, absolutely. And the same for the theatre, for any art form, but it's usually the people that, you know, are the target and seem a little outré or seem a little perverse or seem like... Those are the people that, you know, we've got to let them go. Are you friends with Lars? I, you know, you don't like the main drop. I keep in touch with him. Yeah. Yeah. He was going through a depression when he was making it.

37:22Yes, very much. And so at times... He used to say to me every day, listen, I may not be there tomorrow because I can direct you remote from a trailer I have. With a monitor? Yeah. But he showed up every day. But he needed to tell me that every day, me and Charlotte. Wow. Yeah. It kind of breaks your heart. So he's a guy that struggles, struggles with many things, But he's got a big heart and he also is given a lot to cinema. For people, I feel like as a Lars von Trier fan, I'm in danger of leaving some of my audience behind. So I'm going to say, or people in radio, Lars von Trier is a Danish auteur of the highest caliber who specializes in having a...

38:09What is it? It's almost like a nature red in tooth and claw take on the human-animal and gender relations. And I think probably sometimes does things with a provocateur. I don't think he's trying to represent absolute truth. I think he enjoys parts of it as a tease. Anyway, he takes on themes. But often in his films, women are being brutalised. I think that's fair to say. Yeah. I know that sounds a bit crass and maybe reductive. It's reductive. But it is the case. And I think as a result, some critics, not just the general audiences, have said this is ugly and unnecessary. Well, it's always hard to, you know, when you start sanitising certain images because you have a judgement about them, sometimes that can have a very negative effect.

38:59Sometimes those can be more instructive and they can do greater good sometimes to put it out there. You took the film to Cannes. Was it well received? Yes, very well. Was it Melancholia that got into hot water, like the film after or the two films? No, well, Melancholy, you know, he had this comment about Hitler that if you look at the context, you know, Lars has always been set up as kind of this, as you say, provocateur, you know. Fuckish, contrarian. Yes, yes. He recently said Russians are people too. And everybody at Cannes supports that. And he just crossed the line and then he got cancelled.

39:42That's it. That's end of story. But let's go on from Lars. I mean, Lars is a perfectly good, as you say, maybe your audience doesn't know him. So let's talk about something else. Okay, let me go. If I may. Please. Okay, where we're going to go is here. So we mentioned my cousin, Justin. Yes. He used to work as a ticket taker in a theatre. And he told me this the other night, that he was in one of the theatres when, this is a long segue, but when Last Temptation of Christ came out, The Scorsese film. Another way of approaching this is because it turned out to be controversial as well, but in a very different way.

40:22In a way, it was cancelled at a time when it was called to be cancelled because it was cancelled by the religious elements of the religious or Catholic community. Religious right. Yeah, the religious right. At least in the States. It was a huge deal at the time. Yeah, it was. And I thought it was a shame because I think it didn't get the distribution it deserved. Some theatres pulled it. Some? Many. Did they? Many, sure. And I mentioned Justin because he apparently would have to check people's bags. Right, right. Because the threat level was so high. And in fact, you'll know this, October 22, 1988, some crazy Catholic group set fire to Saint-Michel Cinema in Paris while it was showing the film.

41:08The attack injured 13 people, four of whom were severely burned. and severely damaged the cinema. Also, there were many incidents like that. Someone drove a semi into a theatre. You know, these kinds of things. Do you want to say anything about that? That must have been upsetting, right? Ah, yes. You know, it's just strange in the world of slasher films and porn and all that that people got so upset about this because it's based on a novel and, you know, broadly speaking, They're changing the classic story a little bit to consider the character of Jesus in a different way. That's all. It's not this plot to overthrow some religious thought, you know, or change some religious thought.

41:59It's a consideration, another way of looking at the human aspect of Jesus as opposed to the divine part. It didn't feel especially irreverent, like Jesus does miracles. I mean, he's got human traits. Nevertheless, he's depicted as having a yearning for a family life and having sexual interests, and that evidently was considered beyond the veil. Well, remember, remember that a lot of people had protests against the film without saying it. It was the idea. It was the idea. They don't even like the idea of Hollywood making a movie about Jesus unless it's sanctioned by them. You know, is your faith so weak that it can be threatened by someone else's idea?

42:56You know, you're kind of hitting the greatest hits here. I'm trying to. I'm trying to keep it moving. The original cast included Aidan Quinn as Jesus. Did you know that? Of course. I know Aidan and they tried to do the movie but it fell apart for various reasons. And then when they got it together, the second time I had a very simple call that Martin Scorsese wants to talk to you. And I said, great. And they said, what's it for? This movie, Last Temptation. Oh, they're getting that together. Yeah. And I said, for what role? they said, Jesus, you idiot. And I read the script and I thought that was a wacky idea.

43:43But then I read the script and I said, okay, I get it. Yeah, I want to do this badly. I mean, to work with Martin Scorsese would be enough, but I thought it was a role at that point in my life that I was, you know, connected to. Did any of that stuff touch you? Of course. You mean the controversy? only to a degree I mean down the road there was one project in particular that I was cast in and the studio uncast me because they didn't like that I was associated with Last Temptation really? but I don't want to do a big crocodile tears about that because it could have been much worse but I didn't feel it so so much I think most of the responsibility fell on Martin Scorsese.

44:40And I get censored on this, but I think it's really true that somewhere people think actors, you know, are kind of a little whorish and they'll do whatever, you know, to get a good role or something so they don't hold you responsible somehow. They really look to the director and the studio. The auteur. It became a huge anti-Semitic thing too because an association that this religious right talked about, you know, the evil people in Hollywood. So in America anyway, that was the main fight. They put a construction on it that was shadowy Jewish people who were... Yeah. Really? I hadn't realised that.

45:30That was a big part of it. It was a political opportunity for them to rally around an issue. Next. Okay. I'm just thinking about that. So you were offered the role and then... These are films... I mean, they're good films to talk about and they're interesting films, but let's talk about... If you don't mind, fast forward, because I'm a little fresher on that. I'm curious whether... And I've spoken about those other things because that was so long ago that I've spoken about them ad nauseum. And I'll be a little fresher if I talk about something that's a little more recent. That was perfect. Have you ever auditioned?

46:12This is, again, maybe a naive question. Have you ever auditioned? Do you just have a meeting and then obviously now you just sit down and have a chat? I've auditioned. I remember auditioning for the Green Goblin, for example. Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're getting somewhere. Now, yeah. Yeah, now you're doing your job. For Sam Raimi. For Sam Raimi. He's a great film. I was doing a movie in Spain, and they sent somebody down to tape me. They sent me pages before, and in my little hotel room, I did these scenes, and they taped me, and yeah. That was obviously a superhero film. It was like 2000.

46:50Yeah, and you... It was sort of before they were huge juggernaut. Yeah, there were superhero films, obviously, But, like, I remember explicitly that some of my friends are like, really? You're going to do that? You know? They weren't what they are now, you know? But I thought it would be fun and I love doing action stuff. And I thought I love doing things sometimes with a big mask. You know, it's a great opportunity to really get away from yourself and do something extreme and fun. So I was totally down with it. And Sam Raimi, you know, that was a very sincere movie in a funny way. He really believed in Spider-Man.

47:32And he walked a beautiful line, sometimes in the same scene, elements of drama and comedy right next to each other in a beautiful way, I thought. And I haven't seen him in a long time. But when I did see it, I thought, wow, beautiful. You know, he could switch it really well. It was with the Tobey Maguire incarnation of Spider-Man. And, yeah, it really holds up. I bet. I bet. Because it was solid. And, of course, you know, effects have changed and we had really kind of simple effects. You know, I was on wires a lot, which was a lot of fun. We had to do a lot of it practically. So I was flying around on making these huge, giant leaps, you know, and wires and it was cool.

48:23And one of the legacies of that, as you may or may not be aware, I don't think you're big on social media, are you? I'm not. You're a meme. I'm sure you've been told that. I am aware of that, I must admit. You are not just a meme. I think you're very memeable. In fact, my kids were especially excited about me interviewing you because of the meme factor. It's okay. It's actually not nothing in the sense that it gives you a currency. Yeah. It gives you a currency. And I think it speaks maybe to something about your face. Maybe. And expressiveness. Yes. That's better. Yes. You've said you look like the boy next door if you lived next door to a mausoleum.

49:08I probably said that in a weak moment 30 years ago, okay? this is the problem with the internet it doesn't breathe once it's locked in there there's something special about your face I buy it and I think you made another comment where you said I was on the subway, that one? no actually maybe it was go on no I was taking my kid to the zoo and we were on the subway in New York and it was when New York was still dangerous and some guys got on the train and they took special interest in me and they were looking at me and whispering among each other and they looked rough. So I thought, oh, man, I'm going to get robbed.

49:52Even with my kid, they're going to mess with me, you know. And then one looked at the other and he says, yeah, it's got to be him. Nobody looks like that motherfucker.

50:05Okay, so that was my proof. That was it. Listen, I see my face because I get made up sometimes and I'm looking in a mirror, but I don't think about my face. But I do know because sometimes when I see a movie, my face has a mind of its own, but I let it go. I don't censor it, but I certainly don't think about it. And sometimes when people don't understand performing very well, they say, wow, you made some great expressions. I didn't make the expressions. My body made the expression because I was doing a particular thing and then it manifests in that expression. But I'm not thinking about that. My body gets driven by something else, you know, something mysterious.

50:52Think of all the functions, you know, that the eye does in every second. So much of what we do that we think that we control, we don't. so as an actor you just have to direct yourself in the sense of commit to certain actions and kind of be there and have the world drop away and make your own world be there be there because then you can let go of of who you think you are and what you're hanging on to and it opens the door to being something else and that's the nature of pretending which is certainly the base of performing, at least to my mind. You know, I've heard you say similar... It was great, by the way.

51:35I heard you say similar things. I think about how acting comes so not naturally to me. I love the work that I do, which tends to be interviewing or making documentaries where I'm out on location and there's curiosity, you're in the moment, you're absolutely... If it's going well, you're lost in what's going on. You're in this eternal present of reacting and being curious and being completely consumed by what you're doing. It seems completely... That's a divine place to be, I think. It's a lovely thing to do. And I've read something similar in what you've said about acting. But when I've acted, when I've tried to, it seems to be the opposite where I'm thinking about the lines, I'm thinking about the people around me, I go rigid, right?

52:19And I just wonder... That's the struggle. I mean, every actor struggles to find that place where they're free of those things. So learn your lines, dammit. Right, to learn the lines is probably a good start. I mean, you've sort of talked a bit about this, but what advice do you give? Maybe you've gone as far as you need to, but what advice do you give to actors? Like, you know, at its most basic, is there a key to acting well? You know, everybody finds their own way. And acting isn't one thing. You know, you always have to change your approach, and your job is always different. Sometimes you're driving, sometimes you're supporting, sometimes you're reacting, sometimes you're a passive character, sometimes you're an aggressive character, sometimes you're doing that thing that has to be done to push the story forward.

53:07Sometimes you're, I don't know, you get the idea. There's a whole variation of what acting can be. So I'm a little loathe to say this is the way, you know. The only advice that I give like young actors is don't do this to get that. Do this to do this. and that may sound really flat and prosaic, but I think it's very important, not only in acting but in life. Unpack that a tiny bit. You mean you choose each project on its own merits? I'm not talking about projects. I mean lifting this cup, you know. Don't get ahead of yourself. Lift the cup, lift the cup. And in the lifting of the cup, something will happen to you.

53:49I agree with that. I mean, in the sense that people always say, have a five-year plan, have a ten-year plan. I've never had a plan. I can't do it because life is unpredictable, and if you take unpredictability out of it, you're going to be pretty tightly wound. I mean, some people find success that way. That's why, I mean, I'm nobody to give advice. Some people do that, and they're perfectly happy. I don't have a judgment about it. There's no one way. Yeah, but this do this to do this, it's a big thing. That's when beautiful moments happen in the theater. that's when beautiful things happen in the performance and film.

54:25Not about making choices and making clever things. It's really about the depth of giving over. I mean, when I did this Van Gogh movie, there's so many... I read him exhaustively because he was a prolific letter writer. It was called... It's not one I've seen. At Eternity's Gate. And directed by... Julian Schnabel. Of course. I mean, he was interested in craft. He was interested in a lot of things. But I found a parallel when I learned how to paint. And Julian really taught me that you don't paint the likeness. You don't paint the tree. You paint what you see. And what you see is color, shadow, line.

55:09Everything gets broken down. It's similar with acting a little bit. concentrate on those things. Don't try to express the tree. Express the fundamentals of where stuff comes from and where things are going to. And if you start to get that sensitivity to the origin and where things are going, you keep it alive, you keep it curious, you keep it floating, you can surprise yourself that way. Does that make sense to you? I think so. I think so. Well, let me ask you this then. And in respect to, is acting always a pleasure? Are there times when you feel like you're not quite feeling it? Oh, sure. Sure, absolutely.

55:54Like any job, I suppose. It's like anything, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you're in the groove, sometimes you ain't. But the possibility of getting back is always there. And that's what's nice, you know. Sometimes you can be working on something and it feels dead. and then if you don't kick yourself and if you stay on it, it'll come back around. You haven't done, correct me wrong, much TV? I haven't done really any explicitly TV. I've done things that have ended up in streaming. Is that a choice? I don't know. I mean, you know, as long as I have movies to do and interesting movies to do, I'll do that.

56:34You think the work in movies tends to be a little more interesting? For me, yes. It's, you know, you go out with a team, you've got a director, not a showrunner, and you make something. And of course, it's got similar pressures that commercial pressures and financial pressures that, you know, TV has. I also like to give myself to a director. And if the director is changing all the time, and if it's like a series and the actors have more power than the director because they know the material and they know the run of the day better, and then you've got someone that's, you know, basically looking at algorithms and audience response and all that, and he's guiding the ship.

57:19It's not the way to go. I think you've got to go off, you know, go off to the new world, you know, have your adventure, and then come back with gold or glass beads. I don't know, you know. It's romantic. It's maybe silly, and as I say, I'm not qualified to really talk about it, but that's where I am. How are we doing for time? We've got a few more minutes. I feel like, I know you always talk about this probably, but it's nice for people to know a little bit about where you came from, how you came up. Born in 1955, Appleton, Wisconsin. One of the favoured sons of a Midwestern city alongside Harry Houdini.

57:59Yes. Joseph McCarthy. Yes. The senator behind... The Red Scare. The Red Scare and the witch hunts, the McCarthyite witch hunts. That's the right term, isn't it? Yes. Your father was a surgeon, right? Yeah. Mum was a nurse. They worked together. Yes. You were one of, I think, eight children one of the youngest and kind of co-parented by your elder siblings. Yeah. And maybe, I wouldn't say in any sense, well, correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't sound as though it was in any way a neglectful upbringing, but you weren't the centre of your parents' world either. No, and I think they were a little bit of a model that I've always sought out, you know, kind of creative families.

58:44And, yeah. And also I also tend to work with the people that I love. Not always, but my two long-term relationships are both women directors. So I'm repeating something from my past maybe. Yes, you've created a work family. You've got one son of your own, correct? Yes. So you haven't repeated the sort of, as it were, organic family. He used to work with us, but then he hit adolescence, and I swear to God, he got awkward all of a sudden. He was a beautiful dancer, one of the most beautiful dancers I've ever seen. But then he hit adolescence, and he got self-conscious. We all do in adolescence. Yes, but it ran deep, and I think it was, you know, it doesn't take a psychologist to think that it had to do with He didn't want to compete with his mother, who was a director, and his father, who was an actor.

59:43So he chose another path. He became a lawyer. He became a lawyer. And he also grew up in a theatre company that, you know, was quite marginalised for a lot of the time I was there. And it was a tough life. That was the Wooster Group, you mean? Yeah, the Wooster Group. And they're in New York with a kind of... And they continue. Imagine the bohemian New York. Yeah, a little bit. CBGB. 70s, 80s. Kicking in with the Ramones. You got it. You got it. It wasn't, I mean, we were working, so it wasn't like we were out every night. We were working. But, I mean, the life was rough then, and some of the people didn't make it, you know what I'm saying?

1:00:19So he was witness to that. Do you think he saw, like... Oh, God, he was the child of a basically childless community of artists. Downtown punk scene of the early 70s in New York. Yeah, I don't know about punk, but, yeah, We were doing stuff that, you know, I think was new. And so how, I mean, like they're kind of very cliche. Again, it comes up in all the interviews and profiles. You'd seen the moon landing because being born in 55, you would have been 13 or 14. And then the idea of being in space made a big impression. So you got into it. Well, do you want to finish the story? No, when I saw that moon landing, I was always interested in challenges, you know, funny little things, solitary challenges.

1:01:09And after I saw the moon landing, I thought, how long could I stay isolated? This is a true story. Yeah. So one weekend, you know, I locked myself in a closet with a little food and I was allowed to go to the bathroom. But, you know, it's this kind of thing. And then I thought, basically, that's the performance artist impulse. Yeah. Take an idea and test yourself against, maybe that's not a performance artist thing, but, you know, as a kid, it was to take something, construct a situation, apply yourself to the situation, and see who you were through that situation. And I think that's some way to express the pleasure that I get when I say, oh, I like performing because it's such an adventure.

1:02:01I guess that expresses it in a slightly more articulate way than it's not about, you know, just having a good time. It's a form to deepen your experience of life, hopefully. Yeah, it feels almost like a Joseph Boyce kind of thing. I'm down with Joseph Boyce. Or indeed Marina Abramovich. Who is a friend of mine and I've worked with. Yeah. Yeah. I like transgression. Did I say that? Yes, you did. Oh, that was probably said 50 years ago. That doesn't apply anymore? No, of course it does. But I think when I say I like transgression, I think it's essential to challenge the things as they are, you know.

1:02:46So transgress, I guess, goes against. I don't know the origin of the word exactly but when I think transgression I don't think about shitting on the floor at a performance that's not what I'm talking about necessarily That can be a valid choice It is and I've seen that performance I haven't done it but I've seen that performance Who did that one? A Japanese performance artist in a space right near my house Divine famously ate dog poop in a John Waters film Famously I saw it Did you? Yeah. The movie? I mean, I saw the movie. I wasn't there. That's kind of like locking yourself in a closet. Oh, my goodness.

1:03:31Well, so what do we do with the fact that we want transgression, but we also want to be kind, right? Are these values in opposition in any way? No, they're all together. They're together because you're trying to be useful and you're trying to figure out what matters. And it's not just for you because in your giving yourself to a performance, I don't want to get too holy about this, you're trying to do a service. Somebody's got to do it. Let me do it. You know? What kind of transgression do we endorse, do you think? Things that make us think and reconsider things as they are. That's all. Yeah. That's all.

1:04:21Shifting the paradigm and disrupting things a little bit. Yeah. And I always felt like that, you know, because I think it's a good, you know, we've got to shake ourselves down, you know, every once in a while. I don't want this to sound like a loaded question. Uh-oh. Here we go. But it is. Well, it shouldn't be, really. Maybe it is. You've never worked with Woody Allen? No. Which seems surprising. Not really, because I'm not a New York type and he really deals in types a little bit. I'm not, you know, like a typical Jewish New Yorker and I'm not a blue-blood uptown guy. And he deals a lot in those things.

1:05:04Have you been invited? Never. Interesting. Never. But, you know, sometimes you can admire someone or you can admire a filmmaker or a film and you're just not part of their language. You're not part of their world and you just got to let it go, you know. You would have liked to have been in one? I don't know. It's funny. I'm aware of that because so many friends and so many people have been in Woody Allen films. And, of course, you know, he's had a long career and his work has changed a lot over the career. And, you know, now he's kind of somewhat canceled because of certain personal things. So it's, you know, it's a whole subject.

1:05:48But before, you know, the last 10 years, yeah, sometimes I thought, wow, he's never talked to me about anything. But then I sit myself down and say, you know, I'm probably not right for anything. that he's doing. I love that we got a tiny glimmer of insecurity there. Hey, it's... Maybe not. No, I'm not Mr. Confidence. I mean, being an actor is always filled with little rejections and, you know, yes, some celebrations, but little rejections always. In terms of that word cancellation or being cancelled, do you think we're in, you know, and also having talked a little bit about transgression, Do you think there's anything to this idea that the culture is more risk-averse, that people are policing the morality in a way that feels inhibiting?

1:06:38I think it's not even worth talking about because it's so obvious. Really? Don't you? I mean, I don't know because I live a life that in some ways is very simple, but also I live in a bubble. So if you don't spend a lot of time on social media or you don't watch the news a lot or you're not on the Internet much, there's a lot of things I don't know. And I let it go because there's other things I'm interested in. And as you get older, time management becomes so important because there's so many things I want to do and there's so many things that I love to do. And certain things I just don't get involved in.

1:07:20But do you think, and again, feel free to leave this on the table, but you said that in a way seems so obvious. It's something I think about a lot, but I don't have a conclusion about. Do you say that because it's touched you in some way? What? The idea of a culture that feels risk averse, you know, the possibility of. Of course. Of course. In what way? Of course. Just in people's behavior. Mm-hmm. And sometimes people are cancelled for things that seem disproportionate to their merits. That's all. You know, having done risky work creatively and boundary-pushing work, but also specifically, we talked about Lars von Trier.

1:08:01A lot of those are sex scenes. I could imagine on set it could be awkward, right? And you want everyone to feel involved and consenting and appropriate. Yeah, yeah. Is that a difficult... What does that process look like? If this was a tabloid, I should be careful because it would be what they'd run with. But I like doing those scenes because stakes are different and what is required between the actors is very concrete. And because it's intimate, it kicks it up to another level and you have to really cooperate with each other. Now having said that, there's a common discussion about sex scenes.

1:08:39They think, oh, they really did it or, oh, they just went and the director, the little pig, he or she just filmed it. It's seldom like that. There's so many technical aspects to it that they aren't fun to do for the pleasure of touching and all that. They're fun to do for the collaboration because the stakes are higher. but actually they're usually quite unsexy and quite technical. I did a film with a Chinese woman and I learned so much because she was talking about, you know, you really, it's best to make a score, you know, kiss here, kiss here, kiss here, kiss here, wherever, you know, but make a score and so there isn't all this, you know, stuff that won't be good for camera.

1:09:30Just, you know, feeling doesn't assure that that feeling will be conveyed. You've got to consider the camera and what it looks like and what triggers if it's like a neurotic scene or it's supposed to convey that these people are really connected. You just can't jump into it. Anyway, they're interesting to me, I must say. I know you've got me pegged as low road and that's fine, but have you? Oh, boy. Do you? No. No, right? I'm just trying to talk with you. Yeah. So, because Lars von Trier... I haven't decided about you. No. That'll happen in the car after. Lars von Trier, I'm trying to keep it a little bit serious, a little bit of light.

1:10:18Lars von Trier, because, again, this is probably something that comes up in the interviews in the UK. Don't go there. Don't touch it? No, no. It's boring for me. Yeah, fine. You're going to see how respectful I am. You're respectful. Totally. I think the meter just went like that a little bit. Do you have boundaries in terms of... Because what I get from you is experimental, up for it, excited by it. When I watch The Lighthouse, I might be wrong about this, but there's a scene towards the end, huge spoiler alert, you're buried alive. Which is very memorable and that was a challenge and that was hard and that ran deep.

1:10:57and that scene, I shouldn't blow my own horn, but that's pretty incredible. I would agree. Fuck. It was scary. I bet. Yeah. And when I was seeing, again, second spoiler. But I know they wouldn't let me die. And I knew I had to say that beautiful text. So I had a couple things that I really had to accomplish and they were beautiful challenges. so the director of the situation gave me something that I carry with me even today. Really? Not as a prideful thing, but I learned something about myself and about suffocation and about being buried alive. He's shoveling earth on your face and there you go.

1:11:41It's one of those things where you watch it and you think, this is acting, but it's also, I am now watching real life. Yeah. And Willem Dafoe, the actor, is being suffocated with earth. I hope you're not thinking about that, but maybe that's OK. Well, it's because I was interviewing you. OK. So I suppose it was in my head. OK. It's funny that you mention that, because that was a very memorable scene for me. It's quite brief, but it's extreme. Do you have red lines? Again, that's where I was going to go. If someone said, we're going to do, we require you to fully have sex, that's what, which I think has happened in some movies.

1:12:16Like, that's something, you know, it's obviously a big decision. I don't, you know, we don't deal in the general. We deal in the specifics. What are we talking about? You know, I don't know. I don't have, of course, naturally, I have things that I like to do and that I don't like to do, but everything requires context, you know, when you're talking about decisions like that. I love that. Everything's on the table. We need you to cut off one of your arms. That's not going to happen. that I feel comfortable to say if I'm not sure about anything else in this interview that is not going to happen fair enough?

1:13:03maybe we're done I had more that I could go at but I feel like that was a nice out point

1:13:24Hi, welcome back. Hope you enjoyed that. I did. It's always a privilege when you talk to someone, well, with that level of, that kind of a body of work, and specifically who occupies the sweet spot of artistry and commercial viability, right? We're all trying to find work that's fulfilling, but that can also pay the bills, right? And at his level, he's obviously, I think we said he's never done TV because he really doesn't want to do anything that doesn't feel challenging or interesting. And he's all about, and that's the kind of the downtown art scene, vaguely hippie-ish or bohemian part of him that has never died, which is a great thing.

1:14:05In hindsight, maybe I could have gone deeper into his sense that we are being hemmed in by a sort of overly censorious attitude. It was striking that he was keen to, well, it sounded like he was keen to work with Woody Allen. Just to say that, to be keen to work with Woody Allen is controversial in this landscape. By the way, those of you keeping Louis Theroux Podcast bingo cards can tick Woody Allen off because that came up. But obviously, some of the other ones didn't come up. Like, have you ever blacked up and what's your view of it? And Harvey Weinstein. We're thinking of others. If you have others, let me know what should be on the Louis Theroux Podcast bingo cards.

1:14:55Lars von Trier, his comment about Hitler. Here's a little more on that. In 2011, he spoke before the Cannes premiere of Melancholia and announced, quote, I'm a Nazi. Yeah, you can see why people might have been confused, offended. He also said he, quote, understands Hitler. Organisers of the festival issued a statement saying that they were, quote, disturbed by the remarks Lars von Trier apologised.

1:15:26I submit that without comment. he's an artist and a provocateur. That's my comment. Bobby Peru, maybe my favourite part, well, one of them, of the chat was where I brought up Bobby Peru and he said that there was Bobby Peru in all of us. I said, I'm not sure about me, and he said, cultivate it. He said, that's the work, which I love as a phrase, like theatrical phrase. I've got to find my Bobby Peru, something I've been embarked upon ever since recording the chat and I'm up to 10 % Bombay Peru in my day-to-day interactions, which my wife is not thrilled about. OK, that's it. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu.

1:16:09The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

1:16:29Thank you.