S4 EP2: Jade Thirlwall discusses being ghosted by Harry Styles, clashing with the Gallaghers and coming up on X-Factor

27:22That's become the narrative. I mean, I'm sure there's many factors. I don't think I can talk on it in depth because I don't think it's my place to because I didn't really know him over the last few years. But like I say, I think everyone that enters the industry at a young age is going to go through it in some way. And it can be really lonely when you're that huge because, you know, none of those boys could just go out and do whatever they wanted, you know, being stuck in hotel rooms and having nothing to do. and so I think it all makes sense that being in a boy band can contribute to being in a dark place for sure.

28:11Yeah. I mean, were there times when you found it lonely? Yes, 100%. Yeah, and always when we were probably at our biggest as well, like when we'd have our biggest career moments is probably when I would feel like the worst. So I do understand in that respect. How would you explain that? I just think there's so much pressure. I think the bigger you get, the more your sort of condition that you have to latch on to that or you have to keep that up because if you come anywhere below that, you're then flopping, which is so stupid to think of because it's like, OK, if the next song's not a number one hit, you've flopped.

28:50And I think that was not so much now, but especially like 10 years ago, that was the mentality of the industry or public perception. so I think when you've got that pressure on you you know for us as women you're like becoming a woman in the public eye and you're trying to maintain relationships outside of that you're work to the bone I definitely had moments where I did have very severe like depression or anxiety there was one like era where I was really in quite a dark place and my mum had to come on the road with me on tour because I think she was really concerned of what would happen if she wasn't there.

29:35Really? Yeah. And I used to... Well, I used to have anorexia as a teenager, so I think now and again that would come back into it if I was really stressed or whatever. As a sort of coping strategy? I think so, yeah. So, like, during the whole... I call it the glory days era, ironically, because that's what the album was called, but that literally was our glory days. It was the peak of our career where Shout Out To My Ex came out and that was humongous and internationally things were popping off. But I look back at pictures of myself now at that time and I look very unwell, I think. And I would suffer from night terrors, but when you're little and you have horrible nightmares, but as an adult I started getting them and that really freaked me out mentally.

30:27so I definitely had my moments. To what extent does having the other girls in the band with you, does that help or is it difficult to talk about or does some of it, are there also politics within the group that mean it's difficult to share stuff? Yeah, it just depends because I think all of us went through waves of having certain moments and all you can do is in a very unqualified way try and support each other because you don't really have the foundations around you to, like, help you with that. So, you know, we tried our best, I think. But just naturally as well, yeah, politically, it's not always happy days, is it?

31:07And during that period especially... And to be honest, now I'm older, I'm like, it's through nobody else's fault, really. I was just feeling that way. But you kind of isolate yourself, don't you, when you're super depressed or you project outwards onto other people. so I don't hold any sort of grudge or animosity for anyone around me at that time. But maybe at the time you didn't feel that supported? You were incapable or unable to seek support in a way? Yeah, I think not necessarily just from the girls, I think just everyone around me. I think when I was feeling really worryingly down, I didn't know who I could call and that's why I ended up ringing me mum.

31:51But I didn't want to scare me mum, so I just sort of said, oh, I'm struggling a little bit. But again, at the same time, I was on stage in front of thousands of people. I was travelling the world, which I love to do. And I think even that makes you feel an enormous amount of guilt because I'm like, oh, my God, I'm doing what I love. But then I get home and I feel really lonely. You know, we won a Brit Award that year. I went back to the hotel room and I was just sat on my own with a cup of tea like, all right, how was that then? Do you know what I mean? So it's quite an isolating experience if you don't have the right tools around you to help you with that.

32:33Winning the Brit Award was a big deal. Yes. What did you win it for? That year we won Best Single for Shout Out To My Ex. Was that the one where you gave the speech basically giving credit to the girl bands that had gone before. That was the Best Group Award that we won only a few years ago, actually. And that was the first time a girl band had ever won Best Group in like 43 years. And everyone was thrilled. And the speech, you basically shouted out Spice Girls, Sugar Babes, All Saints. Yeah, all the pop girlies. And Liam Gallagher said, should we do this? If you want, was it not Noel? Little mix with the greatest respect.

33:23I love how when someone's going to be rude to you, they start by saying with the greatest respect. Not being funny, but... Yeah, exactly. Not exactly. I'm not in the same league as Oasis. Was he up for the same award? No, I don't think so. Not even in the same fucking sport, he said. Well, we're very different bands, so I'll give him that to that respect. He's not wrong. We're a very, you know, we're a pop girl band. I don't know why he was comparing us, actually. Maybe for the cliques. I think so. I think he loves a little confrontation, doesn't he? Yeah, that's part of his brand. I seen him at Glastonbury that year, actually.

33:56Me and my boyfriend and Jordan, my boyfriend, was like, I'm going to go over and say something. I was like, all right, then, give it a go. He went over. I was like, you are really rude about my girlfriend. Do you want to apologise? He went, fuck off. And I thought, do you know what? Fair play. So, wait, and Jordan was like, oh, all right, then, when you put it like that. I just thought it was really funny. You can't really argue with that, do you know what I mean? And I also kind of love that I've ended up in some sort of tiff with one of the Gallaghers. I feel like it's the same as getting a hate tweet from Azealia Banks.

34:25Is that what she specialises in? Yeah, I feel like you've made it when Azealia Banks drags you on Twitter or when one of the Gallaghers has sparked some sort of confrontation with you. And the third one, which you've also... Have you had a hate tweet from Azealia Banks? No, not yet. She had one hit, right? What's the 9-1-1? Was that the track? 2-1-2. What's the 2-1-2? Cut that bit out. 9-1-1's a gargoyle song, very good one. Is it? Yeah. What's the 2-1-2? And it's a great track. Yeah. I mean, she's a brilliant rapper. And based on that, she's been pouring scorn on anyone who comes in her vicinity.

35:01Although I've got a soft spot for her because apparently she likes dating older white men. Well, every cloud. There you go. Where were we going? Oh, yeah, and the third, you know you've made it when, surely is when Piers Morgan has a pop at you. Which you also ticked that box. They're like the Thanos stones. We're collecting all the hateful people. Thanos stones, I like that. There's Thanos stones of the Louis Theroux podcast. Yeah. Which I thought I'd call it the bingo card, which is when we mention, for some reason, Andrew Tate always gets a mention. Have you met him? I haven't, but I mean, I'm not particularly.

35:38Not the biggest fan. No, I'm not fussed about that. Well, I don't know if we're going to hit the bingo card on this one. Woody Allen, is he a fan? I don't. I don't. So, I mean, the thing that resonated with me was when you said you've got enormous success and that takes you to a dark place. You're thinking, wait, have you had enormous success? Answer, no. But I have had some success. You have. And there's this sense of like, now you need to keep it going. Yeah. And actually, I feel like chasing success, it creatively can stifle you because suddenly the pressure is on and you're not loose. And the things that got you success in the first place maybe wasn't necessarily a desire for success.

36:23It was a desire to have fun, express yourself. Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, 100 percent. And so I imagine like especially when there's 100 people, managers, labels, stylists, producers, and they're all saying like, here's what you need to do now. How do you sort of just stay focused on making sure that you're actually doing what you love and believe in? I think we would always try and have some time just to ourselves to sort of probably subconsciously remember what it felt like when we first got put together. That magic of when it was just us practicing in Perry's stepdad's pub, trying to come up with ideas of what we wanted to be as a brand and what we would represent.

37:08Like, we would go shopping together, we'd have sleepovers together because we knew it was important to build our friendship. So I think whenever we were struggling with all these outside voices and noises, we would be like, girl, should we just, like, schedule in a night together where we're just chilling and we're not necessarily talking about all the business-y bits or the kind of soul-destroying parts of the job? because we always knew that if we wanted longevity, we had to be friends or we had to be on the same page. We weren't always going to agree like anyone, but we made sure that we were all the most important people in our career, not anyone else outside of that.

37:53And there was no lead singer and stuff like that as well. We always pushed for. You shared the vocals. Shared the vocals, always equal. Even when people thought we were being insane, we were like no we stick to this because we know what happens when labels or management whatever will push just one person that's when you know the imbalance begins and the resentment or the jealousy or whatever so we'd literally be we'd count that ad-libs her girl sometimes yeah or like in a video be like she's got 10 shots and she's only got five so we need to you know make that more equal and it sounds so silly but i do think it kept us going for longer because we always were like no we're equal in this yeah um it was it was you uh leanne perry and jesse yes jesse left that was a high profile thing um how much can you say about that um she was going through a lot of emotional highs and lows there was a lot going on at that time i think to be honest i think covid was a bit of a catalyst for like things just generally slowing down and falling apart But I think all of us, when we had to stop priorities, our perspectives changed on what everyone wanted individually.

39:04And I think... Was she pushed? No, no, absolutely not. Nobody was pushed, that's for sure. Maybe pushed mentally just by, you know, the perils of being in the industry, but... She said she needed to work on her mental health, I think. Yeah. And then she quite quickly released a solo record. Yeah. I know what you're doing. Like, you're giggling. You're like, what? No, I'm not going to jump on that. I just... That was what the internet said. Do you know what you do? You just go on... Here's my interview technique. I'm giving it away. You go on YouTube and you look at a recent video and then you look at the most recent...

39:46The most liked comments. And that's what the world is thinking. And it might be wrong or right, but it's what the people are thinking. So that was one of the comments underneath maybe her video or someone else's. I think some people are right, some people are wrong. So much went on during that period that it actually feels like a fever dream for me. It was such a stressful time. I can't remember. How convenient. No, no, I can't remember. I just mean it was so hazy because all of us, all four of us, I think were traumatised by that whole experience. Like, I will never begrudge Jessie wanting to leave because if she needed to do that for herself, no matter what happened behind the scenes or, you know, anything that unfolded, I'll never discredit or invalidate the struggles that she had in the group, particularly at the beginning.

40:40She really did suffer the most in terms of, like, trolling, the press being really mean, all of that stuff, and it really did some lasting damage and we always tried our best to support her in that. Sometimes you get it wrong, sometimes you get it right. Again, like I said before, we're not qualified to, especially at 18 years old, to help someone with that. You just be your friend as much as you can. And I think towards the end, yeah, I think she gradually clocked out and that's fair enough. and I feel like I can't and I don't want to talk about it in depth because it isn't just my story to tell.

41:23I'd be speaking for people and I don't think that's right. But for myself, I will say that I'm still getting over it now, quite truthfully. Yeah, just because it was really sad and it was really stressful because when it all happened, we were literally promoting a single and an album at the same time. Everyone was asking what was going on. And we didn't necessarily know exactly what was going on. We found out very abruptly that it was happening. And again, I don't want to go into the details of it, but I think all of us, probably just included, were all very confused and just sort of, you know, when, like, we had a lot of group therapy, I had a lot of personal therapy, and because the contact was so abruptly cut off, it was very hard to deal with.

42:14and quite traumatic. And I... It was non-speaks, was it? Yeah, it was. I honestly, I'm not 100 % sure. I don't think... I think that's why I struggled with it is because we didn't all get a chance to just sit together like we'd done for so many years to just hash it out. There's no hate there from me or from any of us, I think. Like, I think it's just all quite sad that it happened. And I had to grieve that happening. And I remember I was dating Jordan. It was very early days at the time. And so I was scared to, like, show him, like, what this meant for me. Because I think in his head he was like, oh, you know, you were banned.

42:58Someone left. That happens all the time. And he does not a similar thing, actually, but, you know, he disbanded from Rizzle Kick's years before. So he was like, babe, you'll be all right. This is all good. I remember we were driving to, I think we were driving up north actually to see my family and I was being really short with them, like very snappy because I was frustrated and he kept probing like what's wrong, what's wrong and tell us and then honestly out of nowhere I literally like bellowed like a fucking wail or something you know like when you have so much grief that you feel like you've been like winded and you start like wailing and I'd never cried like that since me granddad died when I was 13 because it was my first experience of, like, grief.

43:41And I think it was all the years of, like, the love and everything we'd been through together, the good things, the bad things, you know, enabling behaviours or being there for each other. It was just all, like, I think so much of being brushed under the rug and then it just fucking exploded. And I was, like, yeah, just wailed and wailed for, like, an hour or something. we parked up at services and he was like do you want some peace and I was like yes and then bless him that's when I knew he was a keeper because he was like are you all right on your own for a little bit I mean I couldn't actually speak so I was like screaming and then he went out into the shops and he came back with the pasty from Greg's and I thought that's the one I don't know where I don't know how I got to that point and that was and that was the grief at basically losing Jessie?

44:33I think so, yeah. Losing the friendship? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Are you back in touch with her now? No.

44:44I think a lot, a lot, there were a lot of friendships that went south in lockdown. I don't know if that relates to this one. I think it does a bit. Well, you were saying that, didn't you say that she left in lockdown? I don't say that was the only or even the main contributing factor, but communication became so strained that small misunderstandings got magnified. Do you know what was funny about it? It actually wasn't like there wasn't any big arguments or it was just simmering. And I think because, like you say, with lockdown, the communication sort of dwindled a bit. So I think it was just one thing after another.

45:23It was years of stuff. It was also, I think because everyone had a pause nobody could patch the leaks up anymore do you know what I mean? Because we weren't all together to just keep it moving and I think it's really sad because when we first started you know you always think we're not going to be that band where something like that happens or you know you're so adamant that you're going to that's not going to happen to you but that's just life isn't it? Just worth saying that on iPlayer, BBC iPlayer there's a, her documentary's still up, Odd One Out it's called, which you appear in which is when she's still in the band and kind of dealing with trolling and the level of viciousness that was directed at her.

46:05It was really, like, really brutal for everyone. But, yeah, she got it the worst, I would say. To the point where I even had a Daily Mail account so that I could clap back at every troll in the comments, yeah. Because I couldn't bear it because I felt like no one was helping. You know what they call that? Feeding the trolls? Probably, yeah. Right. Trolls are looking for attention. They love it, yeah. They love attention. They absolutely love it. Yeah, so if you... But the press were just as bad. Do you remember The Sun used to do that thing where they'd get a picture of a celebrity and they'd put, like, a monster next to it and liken them to some sort of horrific character from a movie or something like that.

46:41Right. And they did that with her as well, I remember that, in one interview and showed it to us. Yeah. To see what the reaction would be. Really? Mm. What did we think of Jessie's single, Boys? Louis. We don't have to touch this. Well, um... Because it was criticised because she was accused of the quote as blackfishing. Yes. Which is a very sort of 2024 term. The idea was that she was sort of role-playing a racial identity that wasn't hers. What's your take on it? You've just... You've batted it back at me.

47:24well I suppose if you go by my theory of well look at what the comments say and that's sort of what people think uh it feels like it wasn't that well liked holding someone to account to be accountable for themselves is fine but taking it further than that I don't think it's fine and I think you've said in the past that you someone said I think it was you that maybe someone reached out to her privately to express a few things about the song? No, not about the song. About the video? When we were together, yeah. Right. It was that that topic was brought up. With her? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all really.

48:11Are you waiting for me to fill the silence? No, we're just relishing. I don't know if that was my awkward silence or your awkward silence i actually really enjoy an awkward silence so we could do it for a long time that was fun i don't think i needed more than that

48:51You know, when you did your first solo performance post Little Mix, allegedly was on Jules Holland. Yes. Is that right? And one of the comments was, she can't stop smiling. And it was true, you looked very happy. Did you watch it? Yeah, I did. I watched both, because there were two, weren't there? Yes. You did Angel of My Dreams and Fantasy. And I watched both. And you really did seem happy to be there. I was really happy to be there. Go on, what would you want to say about that? Well, it was my first proper performance of any of my own music, so that was really special. But also being on the Jules Holland show is like...

49:28Because it's music, right? Yeah, I think it meant a lot to be asked on that show because they're quite picky, aren't they? Like you say, it's the music show, isn't it? So, you know, only artists get to go on it and they have to, you know, Jules himself has to approve. He played, didn't he? Yes. He played the intro to me for My Dreams. It was beautiful. It was really amazing. So that was like a pinch-free moment. I grew up watching his shows and especially the Hootenanny performances every New Year. So it was on my bucket list to get to do it. So I was literally beaming to be there. And he was so lovely to me.

50:05We chat early every week now. We'll FaceTime me or give me a call. We've formed a lovely sort of friendship off the back of it. So, yeah, it was a really special occasion for me. And just to play my own songs for the first time was, like, amazing. You know, they obviously mean a lot to me. When does your album come out? At the minute, I reckon it's coming out around May. May. I think so. It was going to be a bit earlier, but I think it's been pushed back. How much pressure do you feel? Not as much as you probably think. I think with my own music, I deliberately took quite a large break between Little Mix and my own stuff because I think I needed time to re-evaluate what success was for me.

50:59I didn't want to go into my own stuff chasing a hit or feeling like it has to be huge all the time or it has to be as big as Little Mix because I think I would just be setting myself up for a fall that way. So I took the time out to just be like, just make music that you really love, hon. And then whatever happens, happens. So no, I don't feel an enormous amount of pressure. I'm just proud of it. And I'm hoping I can get on stage and do my own shows, however small or big they are. I don't care. I just want to perform. We should, I know we haven't got very long. Oh, no. Well, I've got as long as you like, but I've told that you have to finish quite soon.

51:43I can go over a little bit. We normally talk a little bit about kind of growing up and stuff. I feel like South Shields is important to you and you tap in there, I think, from time to time, do you? How often? Whenever I can, really. If I get the odd weekend off, I'll go home, see all my family. Your mum and dad are up there? Yeah. They're divorced? Yes. Was that a big deal when they split up? It was a relief, to be honest. Was it? Was there quite a lot of arguing? Yeah, I was 16 when they broke up and I think I was on holiday with a boyfriend at the time. I got back and I got back in the house and my mum was like, oh, your dad's not here anymore, we've broke up.

52:23I was like, oh, right then. That was that. Really? I mean, I'm sure this happens all the time. If you go up in a house where you don't really see a loving relationship or you see parents arguing all the time, whatever, you'd rather they just weren't together and I remember my mum saying when it happened you know we wanted to stay together for the kids we wanted to make sure we stay together till you were old enough and I was like mum I wish you'd just done it straight away Really? Yeah it was one of them ones and as a grown up now I'm like oh wow because now I'm in such a loving relationship I wish they could have had more of that Kids need to see it too they need to see parents that love each other I think to have a sort of model for what healthy a healthy relationship looks like, ideally.

53:06Yeah, I think I was quite cold in relationships for a long time, yeah, off the back of that. But I think there was love there. When you were going out with Harry, so you were being quite cold. Oh, no, don't... You did say. It was one time. Did you go out with all of One Direction? No, no, don't do that. Isn't there a gay one? No, no. No, I thought, don't! You're very good at this, but no. In every boy band, they say there's one gay one. That's something that... That's true, actually, yeah. One of the guys in blue, Duncan, said, in every boy band there's always a gay one and then he goes and for a long time I thought it was Lee Brilliant That was a good line Yeah it was good But I had you know I had a pretty great a great childhood to be honest I was always around with Gran and Mohammed and that's where the whole Yemeni culture comes in so yeah we were still a very tight knit family I'm still really close to my dad and my mum Is your mum Muslim?

54:00No Really? No My granddad was Muslim. Granddad was Muslim, but didn't raise her in the faith. No, it was kind of East is East vibes. The movie? Yeah. I've never seen it, to be honest with you. It's probably very problematic now, watching it back. But, you know, I guess when it came out, everyone related to it. So we'd get called, like, you know, East is East family and stuff. But I think my granddad, he was Muslim, but he didn't necessarily push that onto his children. I think he just wanted them to decide for themselves, but also it's funny we always joke about it because obviously he's called Mohammed but he named all his children like Brenda, Alan, Michael, Norma.

54:41Did he? Yeah. I think he just wanted them to fit in as much as they could. And I think they did that as well. Like me and my mum, growing up, we very rarely spoke about racism or the culture or heritage. It was like she'd sort of put a block on it to try and fit in to a town. like South Shields because she'd obviously had a lot of struggles being a dark-skinned woman in a town like that. So we never really spoke about it until the BLM movement happened and then we were kind of forced to and we've been speaking about it ever since, which is better. More engaged with it and more public-facing with it.

55:21Yeah. You mentioned, this is quite heavy, but we'll try it. So you mentioned having anorexia, right? Yes. Which is a serious mental condition. It's got the highest death rate, basically, of any mental illness. Yeah. Are you all right to just talk about that for a second? Yeah, I don't mind. I mean, I made a programme once about people struggling with anorexia, and what was striking was there's a lot of misconceptions about it. And what struck me anyway was that people think, oh, it's about people who look at too many fashion magazines and they aspire to look like that. Maybe that's true for some people, but what I took was that actually it's not necessarily about looking a certain way, it's about control.

55:58Yeah, 100%. And dealing with anxiety by having the utmost unhealthy level of control over your intake of food, basically, and also exercise. 100%. Would you agree with that? What was your experience? And I suppose more, because, you know, you have to talk about it carefully, but I'm curious to know what made you better as well, like in what respect you found different interventions helpful. So I think I started becoming anorexic when I was like 13, maybe. And it carried on until I was 18. And I was in and out of hospital with it. I think... Were you at your hospital? Not as an inpatient. Or clinic?

56:37Yeah, like clinic, like as an outpatient. Right. I think the first time I went into hospital, I was scared of having to stay there, and that was the kickstart into changing stuff. But, yeah, nothing to do with how I looked at all. Everything to do with having some sort of control of my life. because, you know, my mum and dad were arguing a lot. My granddad had just died and he was, like, my best friend, so I felt like I'd lost a part of myself when he left. I was getting bullied at school. Bullied for anything in particular? Mainly because of the colour of my skin. Really? Yeah, I went to a very white Catholic secondary school and that was a shock to the system because my primary school, where my mum worked, actually, there was, like, 36 different languages.

57:26so much culture and diversity and then I went from that into this Catholic school and I was the only person out of my primary school that went there so from the jump I was like friendless and bless me mom she put me in that school because it was like the better one and ironically it like you know was the toughest but um so yeah I think all that stuff was going on and I felt like controlling what I put in my body was, like, powerful because I could decide that, do you know what I mean? And I hid it for a very long time. I'd wear a lot of, like, baggy clothes and I didn't want people to know about it.

58:07And then I obviously got out of hand. My mum took me to hospital and then I started, like, recovery. I had a friend as well who I guess almost, like, trauma bonded with, who had the same thing but worse. Her anorexia was worse to an extent and she actually did go into a hospital for it and stayed there and I think that scared me as well. And I think my family had been so distracted with their dramas and issues, they didn't realise what was going on with me and then when they did realise, it was really heartbreaking seeing the response from, like, my dad, my mum. Like, everyone was so devastated and I think that also kick-started me into wanting to make a change because I didn't realise it would hurt everyone that much.

58:58I think for a long time I thought if I just literally shriveled away no-one would notice.

59:06So, yeah. And then I think the main thing that made me better was auditioning for X Factor because I knew I couldn't do it if I was still poorly. I went and asked the doctor if I was allowed to go and audition because I'd made a lot of progress it had the whole intervention where they'd sat me down and be like if you keep doing this you're going to die and blah blah blah and at that point to be honest I wasn't really that bothered but then when I was going to audition for the show again I think I just thought and my brother said this this could really change your life if it works out for the better and you deserve that And so I asked if I could do it.

59:47And they were like, if you can promise us you'll keep us up to date with, you know, your diet and all that stuff, then you can do it. And so I did. And then I got better. I think I didn't even realise at the time, but when we spoke earlier about that period where I was really depressed, I was anorexic again, but I didn't even realise that I was, to be honest. I just sort of fell into it. so it's actually weird for me now because I feel so far removed from that person and now when I see any negative comments like the last two I mean the girls did or up until now the majority of the negative comments I receive are about me putting weight on which I find really strange because I'm like the healthiest I've ever been so it's quite ironic it does live with me forever i think um that's again that's why i find the comments really bizarre my fans know that history so bless them they always leap to my defense and anyone like says i'm fat or like there was a wedding that i went to was it this year god i can't remember where everyone thought i was pregnant because i was bloated and like obviously stuff stuff like that is very triggering for someone that's you know had a history of anorexia so i really have to battle a lot sometimes with people's comments um i did go to like a um i guess a sort of rehab facility a few years ago for people with eating disorders and to speak to them yeah and that was really amazing actually because i think it might help me if i'd seen other people struggling like a group of people and knowing how to get through that together or relating to someone and um and all that stuff um i think you can go both ways well yeah like i say you can you control my bond for sure you can yeah or even become competitive yeah that's all that's definitely that can be a part of it as well but it was really um it was nice to sit with the majority girls there show them that it doesn't always have to be like oh you can come out of the other end of that do you know what i I mean, help them see that there's a future where we can be healthier.

1:01:59Just now, maybe I misheard you, it sounded like you said you were told that if you carried on you would die and you said you wouldn't have been that bothered. Not at the time, no. I just think I was obviously... I was in that headspace where I wasn't fussed either way, I think. Because you didn't believe that that would happen or it just felt like life had lost its importance for you? I think I was such an anxious person, even just going into school would fill me with fear. And not even necessarily because by that point I wasn't being bullied as much or whatever. I was probably even becoming popular because I'd already auditioned for Ex-Fet before, so I was the girl that could sing.

1:02:42But I think I just didn't want to feel like that anymore and I was happy wasting away, which is a very unhealthy mindset to have. and I think it did become, well obviously I wasn't eating well so I was very irritable, I was snappy, I was moody so everything was like a defence mechanism at that point and I don't think it's until you're really confronted with that or you have this sort of intervention that you realise the damage that you're doing to yourself and other people. Right, because you're not thinking clearly. No. Because you're calorie starved. Yes. And so literally your mind isn't working right.

1:03:20Yeah, as a teenager as well, you know, hormones. Your hormones, you've got a lot going on. Yeah, periods and it's stopped and all that stuff, so yeah. We're going to coast out of this on something more positive. Yes, yeah. What's it going to be? When's your next single coming out? Do you know when it's coming out? When's my next single coming out? Well, I've got a song coming out on the 10th of January. I just like dropping music because sometimes there's quite a big gap between singles and I don't like that, so... Will you do a video for it? Yeah, there is a video. Or just a visualiser? Well, it's a visualiser, but I don't like...

1:03:55That's a term I learned last week. Yes, but I think everything I do is quite extra. I don't like doing anything that's not got the kitchen sink thrown in. So the visualiser is pretty much a music video. So that's coming out. We're going to see how that goes. But my official next single is out in February. My boyfriend always tells me that this is my bonus round now, which I think is a lovely way of putting it. he's like Jade you've clocked it already you did Little Mix like I clocked the pop game so now it's just bonus level just doing what I want and having fun with it so that is literally how I treat my music, I write about things that I want to write about I don't care if it works for radio or not or all those industry things I just do what I love and that's enough

1:04:58OK, here I am, back. Did you enjoy that? I did. What a nice person. And what a helpful and revealing insight into the way the pop industry works. Thank you, Jade, for all of that. So I was aware we spoke unguardedly or maybe just candidly about reality shows, X Factor in particular. it's worth saying several other contestants have spoken out about struggling with their mental health and contracts that they regarded as exploitative over the years. In response, a spokesperson for The X Factor said in 2021, duty of care to our contestants is of the utmost importance to us. We take welfare very seriously and have measures in place to ensure that they are supported.

1:05:42I also know Simon Cowell a little bit. I don't think it's awkward. I think Simon Cowell's the kind of person who takes a grown-up view of the way TV is made and is open about the fact that there's good and bad associated with being in the music industry and in being part of a reality show like The X Factor. He said to me, in fact, when I interviewed him for my series Boy Bands Forever, I think there was a litany of things that could happen. Maybe I presented them or some of the other people were talking about them, some of the boys that had been in the boy bands, and he said, if you don't want that, be an accountant.

1:06:28Which is another perspective, right? I mean, there's some truth in that as well. Worth saying as well that Jessie Nelson has responded to criticism of the alleged blackfishing in her video for Boys, her solo single, saying, my intention is never to offend people of colour with this video and my song. I'm very aware that I'm a white British woman. I've never said that I wasn't. It's interesting to think about any kind of fishing that I might have done. Do you know I have done a kind of fishing? This isn't a set of like, yeah, fly fishing. No, I think I've possibly vegetarian fished. I think I've given the illusion of being a vegetarian on social media.

1:07:13And in fact, I admire vegetarians. I would like to be one, but I'm not one. Guilty as charged. If you fished intentionally or unintentionally, please email me and let me know what kind of fishing you've been doing. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com slash resources. and if you're listening to the podcast as opposed to watching it, you can watch some clips of the episodes over on my YouTube channel at official Louis Theroux, as well as much else besides. I'm taking over YouTube. I think I almost have a thousand subs.

1:08:02That's not a joke. So smash that like button. I'm kind of fishing now. I'm YouTuber fishing or baiting. I think that might be it. Oh, yes, credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

1:08:40Thank you.