S4 EP6: Sharon Horgan on the sadness of comedy, living in squats and FaceTiming Bono

26:35And, you know, I feel like you're always having to please someone. I mean, there's varying degrees of it. I mean, Dennis and I, weirdly, we'd never made anything before. We kind of had complete control over that. It was like... Would you say that was the freest experience you had in TV? Motherland was pretty freeing, though, as well. I mean, they just kind of let us get on with it as well. But then sometimes I like to have someone telling me what to do, a little bit, you know, when they really know what they're on about. And I feel like we're, you know, both aiming for the same thing. And then sometimes it's very, you're very constrained and sort of pushed in a certain direction.

27:16But, you know, the thing about TV is it takes all shapes and forms, you know, and sometimes when you're working with a streamer, there's a lot more flexibility there. You know, you can sort of have your 45-minute episode and you can have your, you know, 56-minute one and, you know, you're allowed a certain amount of leeway. Not with all streamers, but... Would you ever direct? I have directed, yeah. What have you directed? Well, I directed Modern Love, the Amazon series. I directed an episode of that with Tina Fey and John Slattery. I really liked it. I mean, I'd done a short before and I really enjoyed that.

28:05The thing is, like, when you direct, I think, you immediately just go, right, well, this is kind of what I want to do now. this is great because you really do feel very in control of the story and all aspects of it because I've only ever directed what I've written. But it really, it takes an awful lot of time up and it also means that you can't really do anything else. So with Bad Sisters, for example, I mean, you know, we had incredible directors on that and it would have been lovely to have a go, but when you're sort of show running something or when you're like the lead writer on something and you're in it, there's just so much to think about.

28:48And the director job sort of continues long after everyone has sort of gone home. I mean, it's definitely a scratchy itch or an itchy scratch that I have, but I kind of expect finding the right thing at the right time and not just for the sake of it. You know, I don't sort of have a career plan. You know, I don't think about things in that way. I kind of, whatever comes along, comes along, you know. For sure. And you would be less productive, for sure. Like, if you were directing, I think it's part of what you're saying, because actually you just can't be across as many projects. Yeah, and that's slightly the problem.

29:31And why I haven't directed a feature yet is because, you know, I set time aside and feature world takes so long. Everything takes so long, you know, just getting the financing. And by that point, I'm like, I want to do this next thing. And then I kind of, my time goes and then, you know, it's another year down the line. And, yeah, that's what happens. I mean, I always feel like I've gotten to make what was in my head. I get it. Except when I was working in the US and making pilots. then that was kind of different. You kind of ended up with a product at the end that wasn't what you started out with.

30:11So after pulling and doing two seasons plus the special, you got scooped up by America. That must have felt quite nice. What happened, ABC or what was it? Some network said, we liked pulling, do something like that over here. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I made, I think I made five or six pilots, which is a lot. and each year you do one for sort of five years yeah well no no no like each each year you'd go there and make one and then it would get turned down um which always felt like weirdly like a relief you know this is so weird but so many times i got a call which was your pilots getting picked up i.e we're taking it from script to pilot where i would get off the call and start crying because i don't want to make that anymore but i would do it and then there was so many times where i got a saying we're not going to take your pilot anymore.

31:01Really? Yeah, because they just never felt like the thing I wanted to spend the next X amount of years doing, they just never, they kind of became something else. Within that process of making it, you kind of lost what it was that kind of made them fun and a bit, like, singular in the first place, and they just, all the corners, you know, kind of rubbed down, kind of, stories. How do you like the L.A. culture? Have you still got a house in L.A.? Yeah, yeah. How is it? Because it's up in the hills, isn't it? Yeah, no, it's... It's quite close to where the fires are. It was, yeah, it was on the other side, though, of the Hollywood sign, and, yeah, it's terrible.

31:40What's the longest you've spent in L.A.? I only ever went for a few months at a time. Like, when I was making Divorce, that was in New York, so I was there for much longer when I was making the series. Why did it film in New York? Because that's where Sarah Jessica lived. So she gets to say, OK, this is where we're going to film it. Yeah, but it was kind of like, yeah, sort of the story. Yeah. You work with Paul Sims. Yeah. No, I didn't mean it like that. No, I only mention it because when I was in my 20s, my dream was to work on a sitcom and to be a writer. And at that time, I thought, well, I'd love to work on Larry Sanders, which was the spawning ground.

32:24It was Gary Shandling was the star and executive producer. And then the two big writers on it, one was Judd Apatow, who later became known as a Hollywood auteur of some distinction, and Paul Sims. Oh, right. And then I thought, well, I can't write a spec script for Larry Sanders. I can't aim that high. But then Paul Sims left to do news radio, so I wrote a news radio spec script. You did? Yeah. How'd it go? Well, I spent about two months writing it and heard nothing. Like I just wanted to get some representation. So anyway, months went by and then I came home one day on my answering machine, this being the 90s, was Paul Sims saying like, so Louis, I got your script and I liked it.

33:09So why don't you come by and we can have a chat like that. Wow. And so that was going to be my Hollywood dream coming true. Yeah, what happened? Well, I went out for a meeting at News Radio and it seemed to go fine. And then I was a little struck by the atmosphere in the in the writer's room. Wasn't quite I was expecting a kind of Algonquin roundtable, slightly glamorous feeling. Do you know what I mean? Like I thought it would going to be. I don't know what I was expecting. Right. But I just remember it felt like it felt a bit like a squat. Yeah. There was tinfoil on the windows. It was quite dark.

33:46Anyway, that was the first thing where I was like, well, this doesn't look quite as fun as maybe I expected. That's an anecdote without much of a punchline. But I know what you mean about writers' rooms. I mean, they're completely different kind of things now, but I remember being highly intimidated by it. And when I got an opportunity to run one, I just felt there's got to be a way to do this that doesn't involve these kind of hours and working this late. it seems insane and it felt like it was kind of created by a bit of a male culture of just not wanting to go home to do bath time maybe. These guys, they were too young to have bath time.

34:31OK, but then also that, like, just, you know, I don't know, like man cave kind of style. It was kind of like a party at work kind of, it's like we have fun here. But it's also like we don't do anything, We just sit around and chat shit. And then when it comes down to it, there's a deadline. And so we'll stay here all night and get it done. And it's really dysfunctional, I think, and sort of unhealthy. I'd much rather have a, you know, a shorter length writer's room where you work really hard for a month and just like get it done and really, you know, get on a roll. I don't really love the sort of late, late nights, incredibly long hours kind of.

35:14I think I'm just very cautious with my time like way more than I used to be but I was always in some way cautious of time I think because I spent so long at the job centre like I just refused to use my time badly Well, words that come up it might have been Dennis Kelly who said of you that you are fearless and driven Does that sound about right? Not fearless, I am driven Where do you think your drive comes from? You know, my dad, I suppose, and my siblings and myself. In what way? In the way that they're all sort of successful in their fields. And, you know, my dad had an extraordinary work ethic and he had no time for any kind of laziness or, you know, And, you know, I'm wanting to sort of impress him, I suppose.

36:15And I suppose I just also don't love not having something very focused to do because otherwise I kind of end up sort of thinking about death. Or I just go on my phone. And if I'm on my phone and, like, if I'm doing anything that isn't sort of, creatively nourishing or intellectually stimulating, I feel terrible, you know. You've got four siblings. You're number two in the order. Yeah. Which I think is, that's what I am. I think maybe that is more clown mode, isn't it? Yes, oh, very. Yeah, I was clown. You also had, but I didn't have younger siblings, so I wonder if you were also having to fight a bit more for attention.

37:03Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. because the last two that came along were boys as well so they waited a long time to get their boys so, you know, you definitely had to work harder. Right. When you go back to Ireland, is it like Beatlemania?

37:23It's not like Beatlemania but, like, Irish women love the shows, you know? And especially Bad Sisters. and last time I was out, maybe not last time, but the time before, we got accosted by a wedding party. Like I popped into this restaurant to see if I could bring myself and my mum in there for a bit of lunch and there happened to be a wedding going on. So I like skedaddled and then the bride is a big Bad Sisters fan. So like about 20 women came running out and they were lovely but it just, it was intense because it was like a mob and I was like, well, I'm here with my mum and I just want to get my mum something to eat and then they were like, we'll look after your mum and they kind of took my mum off and were kind of, you know, thinking if they could keep my mum occupied that they could have me for a bit longer and it was just wild and hilarious.

38:25I love when people are passionate about the show. Like it makes me really happy. I've had that a couple of times. We've got a wedding reception downstairs, like you're in a pub or something. Yeah. And we'd love it if you came down for a bit. What do you do in that situation? Well. Depends how much I've had to drink. Yeah, I think that's really true. I had a good night once. I was coming back from someone's stag. It was about two in the morning. And then from somewhere in Covent Garden, there was a flat. and I was, oi, is it Louis Theroux? Oi, do you want to come up? Anyway, I went up and there was some guys and they were sitting around.

39:04Then they started chopping out cocaine and I was like, oh no, I'm good, thanks. But I had a few drinks and hung with them for a few hours. For a few hours? Well, at least a couple, yeah, until like four in the morning. It was really fun. It sounds weird. They told me a story about how once a year they would party with Rolf Harris. What the hell? I know. Were they Australian? No. No. What's the connection? I don't know. They worked in catering. They were like cooks, culinary people. They party hard, those cooks. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's so weird. Once a year, they party. The idea was like, would you like to have the same arrangement where once a year we hang out and get fucked up?

39:45Oh. I was like, no. No. That's not my life. That's not me.

40:11MUSIC PLAYS Was Jimmy Savillon in Ireland? Did they have Jim will fix it? Yes. Was it popular? Yeah. Did you write in? No. Why not? I never wrote into anything ever. I mean, I've done it in a sort of prank way. I've done it. I've done, like, hidden camera TV and... As an adult? As an adult, as a performer. As a performer, yeah. I've done that too. I don't like doing that. No, it's awful. Do you like prank stuff in general? Do you enjoy... I used to really like that. I can't deal with it now. What about Ali G and Borat and that kind of thing? I used to like all that. And what about now? Not so much.

40:48It just makes me cringe a bit. I mean, also it makes me think about what I did in the past. You know, that's kind of how I started out, was doing that sort of prank TV. Really? What, with friends? No, on TV. On what? Channel 4, like a really early Channel 4 show. What was it called? It was actually called The Pilot Show. It was pretty funny, actually. And it went on TV? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we would just, like, you know, create these sort of fake pilots and involve, you know, celebrities and members of the public in them as shows that were really sort of happening. and we had one called Who Wants to Go to the Moon where we had members of the public come in and the show was that we were taking people to the moon and, I mean, people actually recorded goodbye messages to their loved ones.

41:39We were like, you're going to the moon. They would go like, all right, Manzi, I'm going to the moon. I went out my cab say goodbye to Sandra and they would like you know be willing to people are pretty willing to do anything to get on TV Did they think they were really going to the moon? 100 % they thought they were going to the moon That does sound funny I'm changing my mind, I like pranks again And there was this whole other sort of hidden camera bit which was Celebrity Advice Bureau and we would get like celebrities in to give advice to members of the public and I, Frank Bruno was one of the celebrity advisors and I was the member of the public and I was talking to him about my prolapsed womb and it's worth a look online.

42:34That sounds funny. Yeah. I mean, funny but also kind of awful, you know. Yeah. I feel guilty. He didn't give me very good advice though. Frank Bruno. Yeah. Funny that.

42:48That's the problem with non-fiction comedy, if you could call it that, is, oh, shit, there's real people. I know, yeah. And you've got the advantage as a writer of kind of creating situations. You can humiliate made-up people. Yeah, myself. Yeah, yourself. Yeah, I can humiliate myself. Yeah.

43:112017, an article about Woody Allen. He said, Woody Allen warns against witch hunt post-Weinstein. You tweeted, fuck off, Woody Allen. Wow. I don't know if anyone's said it better. Were you a fan of his stuff? Are you still a fan at all? There's some good stuff there. I know. I can't watch it now, can you? I can't. Although the weird fucking thing is, is that I still, I watch Rosemary's Baby, like, at least once a year. Do you? Maybe more. So that's odd. And that's Roman Polanski. He's obviously not on screen, but what he did was, as I understand it, pretty horrific. Yeah. Because Husbands and Wives era Woody Allen, for me, is one of the kind of gold standards of that kind of comedy, which is...

44:06Do you remember the scene where Liam Neeson turns up to go on a date with a woman who's divorcing her husband? Yeah, yeah. and they're in the middle of a horrendous argument, and he's having to stand there like a gooseberry. Yeah, it's wonderful. As she screams at the guy. I mean, it's an inspiration, you know. Right. Like back in the day, I used to watch just in terms of even how he staged it, you know, even how he sort of staged dialogue, you know, and the flow of it and the locations he used and just the naturalism. I mean, it was all a huge inspiration, but I just don't want to buy into his thing anymore.

44:43Weirdly, I did a film apart in one of his films. I don't even know what it's called, but I got asked to audition for a new Woody Allen film and I was so excited and it was like really, really early, early days and my agent said, look, there's not a lot of words, but the great thing about, you know, Woody Allen films is, you know, you turn up, you've got your character and, like, let's just see what happens, you know.

45:13And I did that and I turned up and I was overwhelmed with actually even being there. And he came over once and whispered a couple of words to the lead actress and that was it. But, yeah, I couldn't make myself, I couldn't push myself forward. I was too overburdened with the, you know, the weight of even sort of being there and how, you know, at the time he was such a hero of mine. So that, yeah, that didn't work out. I don't think I even ended up on screen. What film was it? I can't remember. Can't remember. No. Is that bad? I remember lots of other stuff. You could if you could remember. We'll look it up.

45:56You know, if we wanted to, it feels as though there was a kind of correction that took place in the culture, right? and people were more open to the idea of women's voices and women's stories and was it effort towards inclusivity? Does that resonate with you? Yeah, that happened. And that did happen, right? Yeah. Now we seem to be... Have you got any sense that there might be something else happening? Have you noticed the vibe shift? Into what? A post-Trump kind of backlash. Oh, back to a boys' club kind of thing. A bro culture. I don't know if it's in Hollywood. I don't know. It might be too early to say.

46:28The thing with any of this is, like, if you let your guard down for a minute and think, you know, that the tide has changed and things are better now, it just sort of slips back. Because the pool was so heavily sort of male anyway, and it takes such an enormous amount of effort to, you know, turn that 2 % even into 10 % and then like 25%, you know, female driven stories. And so if you stop it for a minute, it just sort of slips back into the experienced sort of male hands. So it's something you have to like push against all the time. Have you been following the whole Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni situation?

47:19A little bit, actually. Go on. Because that is... What's your read of that? The irony is, it was a movie that was about a coercive controlling relationship in which he plays the coercive controller, right? He's also the director of the film. And then they released the film, then there was speculation while they were promoting it that something had happened. but then it became, oh, actually, I had a terrible experience, she says, making the film, and then he's like, oh, no, you're just trying to slander me, and actually, you were the awful one. It's kind of awful, and then it's oddly compelling to read about.

47:57I've gone down a few wormholes with it. I don't have an opinion, though. No, that's fine. I don't have an opinion because, I mean, at the moment, and it's sort of, it's being played out as a soap opera, so I'm watching it for that. And everyone's watching, and because everyone's watching, it's being, you know, stoked more. So it's more and more kind of content is coming out about it. And because they realise, oh, people like this story, it needs more content, more and more kind of pointless bullshit is going to come out as well. Do you know what I mean? So, like, I kind of hate myself for being part of that audience.

48:37You know, I kind of hate that I'm watching it because it's, you know, I'm just, like, feeding the beast. What about when Gwyneth Paltrow skied into the men? That was gas. That was unreal. Someone should make a drama about that. That was brilliant, brilliant entertainment, wasn't it? Depp B. Hurd. Who? Depp, Hurd. Johnny Depp, Amber Hurd. What about it? OK, listen. I did get into it, though. I did get into it. Depp v Hurd. Yeah, I did. I watched a lot of that trial. Did you? And again, I hate myself for doing that. Why did I do that? Like, often I'll kind of like, when I was making Bounce Sisters, I got really into true crime and I allowed it because I was like, this is research.

49:27You know, I'd never written a thriller before or anything around murder or any kind of cop story. And so I felt I was fully justified in watching and listening to terrible stories about women killing their husbands. What, podcasts and documentary series? Yes, as much as I could get into my eye holes and ear holes. But it was, you know, it kind of took me to a really dark place And it was kind of like I could only be sated by that kind of content. And I could only fall asleep if I was listening to, you know, a story about some brutal murder in my ears. And I had to get out of it. So at the moment, I'm developing this thing, which is much more, you know, kind of grounded and to do with relationships and stuff.

50:18So I'm sort of, you know, I'm more sort of like, I want to watch love stories and I want to read about, you know, breakdowns of relationships. And anytime I find myself going online to watch anything that's, you know, not connected to that, I know it's just like salacious kind of, I'm just like feeding my beast. So like the Depp and Heard thing, like, what did I get from that? like nothing, you know. Well, maybe. OK, I wanted to talk about kind of deep things. And as a grown-up, I know you came through a divorce, 2019. It was kind of smart getting the divorce out of the way pre-lockdown. No, my divorce only came through in November.

51:05Last year? Yeah. Yeah, but that's like decree Nisi, decree all that stuff. Yes, decree, absolute. That'll do Nisi.

51:17But, yeah, that came through when I was over in New York promoting the second season of Black History. But you separated in 2019? Yeah. Actually, it's really interesting reading the cuttings, you know, the old articles and whatnot. You did an interview, I don't know if it was the New York Times or the New Yorker, and you're talking about how difficult it is being in a marriage and how difficult it is, and the strain. And I know there was a lot you went through because you were, apart for a significant chunk of time, it was a very difficult time when you were writing, a catastrophe filming divorce in New York and you were away for a lot.

51:48Can I just say, though, that a lot of the interviews at that time would have been skewed towards that because I was making a show called Divorce. That would be it. So, you know, I think that what I was saying was that long-term relationships are hard and anyone who's been in a long-term marriage knows what it's like to want a divorce. You might not know, like, how it feels to go through it. And really, you don't. It's a massive, massive, massive upheaval. And so I would recommend that you really like, you know, you have to really want out to go through it because it's a huge upheaval of life and it drags on for years.

52:28And that's kind of what I wanted the show to be about, you know, this never-ending divorce kind of thing. But, yeah, I kind of, I feel like I try not to talk about personal stuff. But I think when you make shows that are about marriage, like catastrophe or about motherhood or about divorce, that you kind of, to a certain extent, you kind of address your version of that experience. And so I guess that's why I was talking about that then. Do you have any advice for people getting divorced? I guess that might be a helpful way of talking about it. I know. I've gone a bit Stephen Bartlett. My advice for someone getting divorced...

53:11Think about it very carefully. Think about it really carefully. Don't move out of the house. Don't, don't... Do you know that one? Because then they can't get back in. Actually, it happens in divorce. You're serious. Yes, that's right. Have you heard that? Yeah. You're surrendering occupational rights. Yeah. I've said that kind of clearly. Well, ours was, you know, because we did that nesting thing because we didn't want it to impact on the kids unnecessarily. So we did sort of move out of the house and then move back in every week kind of thing. Right, that's the Scandinavian model. Yeah, the kids didn't have to go anywhere.

53:49But no, I would say just be really on it and don't hand over anything without, you know, making sure you've got a smart lawyer. I think that's really important. and have a smart lawyer who's on it. You know, you can go into it with a lot of naivety and you can take your eye off the ball. You're talking financially, custodially or the whole package? Just everything. Sometimes I think lawyers create more conflict. Well, that's the thing that I was interested in, in divorce, like the personalities and the egos, you know, that are involved in that. I mean, it must be really... I mean, it's a pretty juicy job, isn't it?

54:33And there's definitely a whole area that is driven by the personality of your lawyer, I think, you know. So, but, you know, it's done now, and it was nice to get it done. It was nice to... After 14 years? No, I mean, like, the divorce. It was nice to get... Not the relationship. Well, you know, I mean, clearly it was nice to get that done as well, but, you know, it was nice to just finally have the divorce bit done. I think you said one time, like, in Ireland, maybe a divorce is more frowned on than it would be perhaps in England. Well, I mean, it wasn't even a possibility for years. You know, it was...

55:18You couldn't get a divorce. Really? When did they change that? I think it was, like, late 90s. I mean, my sister made an amazing documentary called Housewife of the Year about a program that was on RTE called Housewife of the Year. And it was still going up until the late 90s and where, you know, women would just sort of compete against each other in their housewifery skills. But the documentary was about so much more and how the sort of, you know, sort of how the church ruled and the impact it had on women in particular and what their roles were supposed to be. And so, yeah, I'm not saying that that impacted on me, but there was a sense that.

56:05Just a sense that you just don't get divorced, like you do everything you can to avoid it. And I think that sort of somehow got into my bloodstream. And it's kind of crazy. You know, it's a really short one life that you have. And do you do that? Do you sort of, are you a what if-er? Like, do you do that thing where you sort of think about how things might have gone? Like, say, for example, what you were talking about earlier, that moment where you were almost, you know, a sitcom writer. like it happens to people in my job a lot because you know you sort of jobs that you either turn down or decide not to do or don't get you just see them in posters all over the place and on a screen and you know so you do have that sort of feeling of like that in a parallel life that happened I made that choice and what would have you know transpired if I'd gone that route well I do that in my personal life as well.

57:08Do you? Yeah, yeah. It's sort of like if I'd gotten out earlier and if I'd met so-and-so instead of, you know... Because I guess, you know, we're both 1970s and, you know, time's ticking on. Oh, my God. You know, it took me a long time to adjust my life. And it seems crazy to me now. You know, it seems bonkers to me. And, you know, I blame the church. Do you? No, I don't. But, you know, just from what we were saying earlier, whatever it was that was in my head as a sort of reason to not get divorced. And like part of it is, of course, you feel like, you know, this is what's best for the kids. You know, this is like to keep the family together.

57:50Well, what is a family? Like, what does that mean? It doesn't need to be a man and a woman living in the same house, you know, unhappily. That's like I feel much more of a family now, you know. So, yeah, yeah. Because family is my, you know, my brothers and sisters and the support network that the Horgan family bring me, you know, and my girls feel that as well. And if I'd sort of been more aware of, you know, the, like, the beauty of that and, you know, how that can be as more functional than a relationship that's kind of, you know, dying. I mean, you want your kids to see you happy, don't you?

58:34Because then they bring that into their lives and their future relationships. And instead, you stick around in an unhappy marriage and you give your kids an idea of that's what it means to be in a relationship. Not that it always works out like that, but I do think there's a lot I should have figured out better. What do you think was stopping you from doing that? Well, you mentioned the Catholic thing, but maybe, well, inertia. Also, you're so busy, right? And you just don't, you've got the time. It is a little bit, it is a little bit like, you know, I stayed at the job centre for way too long as well.

59:15So I think there is a little bit of, I'm not great with change, which is weird because now I'm just like, I think I'm the opposite. I'm just like, want to keep things moving all the time and, you know, and trying new things and challenging myself and getting myself out of my comfort zone. But for a long time I wasn't like that because I think it took a while for me to start being a proper adult, you know. And so I was scared of being alone, I think, you know. I was scared of what it meant to have to manage a life on my own, you know. How's your energy? I think we might be close to the time. Yeah, I mean, I'm dying for a pee.

59:57That's my main sort of big wee energy. Can I ask one more question? I'm going to do the wee first. Ask it. Do you think there's like a road where, because you talked about other lives or like hypotheticals and, you know, having worked throughout your 20s in the job centre, I remember the first interview I heard with you, I remember thinking, wow, is there a world where Sharon Horgan is not the Sharon Horgan that we know? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And observing the world bestriding success that you enjoy now, that, you know, what does the other path look like? Do you know what I mean? I actually do think about that a lot because it does feel unreal.

1:00:37I don't know if you get that. I mean, sitting here with your Louis Theroux podcast screen behind you. You know, it's a mad old life that we live. so it does feel a little bit like that there should have been another life for me that I would be sort of more comfortable in or more, you know. I think you would have found the way though eventually. What I was doing was I was heading into sort of production of some kind, you know. I'd kind of given up on the dream of being an actor and I didn't really think the writing thing was ever going to pan out. So I was going to find my way. Like my sister was making documentaries and I thought, you know, I can probably find my way to be in the industry in some way.

1:01:28And I think I'm a good producer, you know, and I think that I would have been doing that. I don't think I would have been, you know, regional manager in the employment service. I don't think that would have been my, you know, parallel life. but, you know, one where I'm not creating shows and I'm not on screen, definitely. I mean, it could have so easily have happened because it's sort of, I gave up so many times but somehow it worked out. And you get in the room and then you realise, oh, wow, I'm not just good enough. Like, I have something to offer, right? Yeah. I don't know if it's like me but you have moments of self-doubt and then you think, wow, I think I see something that other people don't see.

1:02:11Yeah, it's weird. but it's also weird to have that dialogue where you're like hey I'm doing this thing that people say I can do like I have that sort of weird dialogue running in my head the whole time like if I think of something if I think of a way out of a problem like if I'm able to troubleshoot what's wrong with a what's not working in a script you know I'm like oh oh yeah you can you just did that or you just you know figured that out like that's why it feels like you know kind of like I'm like I almost shouldn't be here because I'm constantly commentating on what's happening but maybe everyone does that do they uh I think I do it that thing well out of body out of body experience sort of noticing what you're doing yeah yeah because otherwise and I read a thing that you said where you were in therapy and you just talking like I'm in a scene where therapy is happening.

1:03:12Yeah, it's awful. It's great when it stops.

1:03:18You just need to find the right drugs. I mean, I take beta blockers now to sort of... Do you? They sort of help me in a way. No, no, no, no. But like, you know... They just slow your heart down, don't they? Yeah, but they sort of... The thing is that when you have an increased heart rate and when all those things start happening to you physically, that's when you kind of step outside of yourself because you're like telling yourself to calm down. You know, you're telling yourself to sort of be less nervous and you're kind of like admonishing yourself and all that is making you feel a bit disembodied.

1:03:54And so, yeah, they do just something very practical physically, but I think the sort of mental stuff that goes with it, you know, has had a real kind of calming effect on me in situations that would normally kind of terrify me. Like what? Well, I mean, Eve Hewson, when we were at the Critics' Choice Awards last year, me and her were going out to present an award. And, you know, that place is insane. It's like Cate Blanchett's there, and there's Nicole Kidman, there's Steven Spielberg, and it's insane, and you're going out to present an award, and you need to be funny, and you need to also feel relaxed so that everyone else relaxes.

1:04:33and, you know, I took it and I went out on stage and I was like, I'm actually fine, happy to be here. Whereas before, I swear to God, I couldn't. It was the worst. It was like I would hear my voice, my heart would be going crazy, I'd be sweating, I'd be, my voice would... Wobble? Wobble, but also like get higher or, you know, like I wasn't getting enough oxygen to my brain and, yeah, it was nothing. It wasn't like I was flat. It was just like, I'm absolutely fine. All I have to do is, like, say these words that I know are funny. So from then on, I kind of take them in any sort of situation that feels a bit, you know, that would create some kind of anxiety.

1:05:20I might try that. Yeah, it's good. I have the same thing where if I'm, especially if it feels like it's a huge, illustrious audience of industry people and you're straight out, released like a bull in a rodeo. Yeah. And then I find, even as a middle-aged man, this strange, yeah, this feeling of... It's so annoying. Because I'm fine talking on stage. Yeah. But it's the artificiality and then the heightened sense of, like, observing yourself beginning to lose it or hearing yourself and then you get in a feedback loop of anxiety. And then you're, like, thinking ahead of what you might forget and how you might fuck up.

1:05:59and it's weird because everyone says, like, you know, everyone's faking it to a certain extent and everyone feels the same, like all of those people that you're worried about are as sort of anxious as you. I don't think that's true. I think some are and some aren't. I think many are. It surprises me that you would be. Really? Oh, wow. Only because I think of actors being less afflicted by that. Oh, yeah, no, I'm very, very afflicted by it. I know you need to do the... Do the toilet. I know we arrived at a place of encouraging people to take beta blockers if they're presenting a high-profile award in Hollywood, which is maybe not the most relatable note to end on.

1:06:45But thank you for joining me, Sharon. Oh, thanks for having me.

1:07:01So there it was, the amazing Sharon Horgan. Hope you enjoyed that. So should we do some footnotes to the episode? The Woody Allen film is so annoying. We can't seem to find out which one it is. And I didn't want to text Sharon and say, hey, Sharon, like what was the Woody Allen film? I know you can't remember. Was there any? Do you remember who else was in it? because we can figure it out, and then we can maybe use those clues to figure out what it was because it would have given the message that the main takeaway was that she worked with Woody Allen, which is not the main takeaway, right? It's just one of the takeaways.

1:07:41Nevertheless, you can tick Woody Allen off the bingo card also. I don't think Roman Polanski's on the bingo card. Jimmy Savile is. Rolf Harris. if you heard the idea from that that rolf harris would party with the cooks and take cocaine with them that's not the message but what was he doing

1:08:06and they give me a hard time about jimmy savile come on follow the breadcrumbs uh was there no other thing on the bingo card oh gwyneth paltrow skiing into the man i said it might make a good drama. Bing! Turns out it was turned into a West End musical called I Wish You Well, starring X-Factors' Diana Vickers. Sadly, it's finished its run. I want to say more about that, but I don't know what else to say. A legal note, as of 2012, squatting in a residential building is now a criminal offence. Please don't squat in buildings and consume enormous amounts of weed and Gange. It's not funny and it's not cool.

1:08:55I had to say that. That might be about it, other than credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

1:09:22Thank you.