S5 EP4: John Wilson on collaborating with Nathan Fielder, confronting a cult, and hating mockumentaries

29:14It's not. He was making an ambitious nonfiction feature film over over a period of months. And we were going to be in and out in a matter of days. Wait, wait, wait. So this you're filming the same kind of poly. Yeah, basically we had overlap with two or three contributors. Okay. So he felt like, his feeling was like, I don't want anyone else filming, I mean, my people, and I don't really want another project to exist. you can't be too precious about ownership of of of a subject or subject matter because it's like if you're not if if you're worried about someone else making a documentary about the same thing then i think that's a sign that you maybe you don't have anything really unique to say or like stylistically that like what you you're doing can be reproduced by somebody else with a different team you know so to me like what makes gives me peace of mind is that like even if i do see another doc crew and doing following the same people i i feel like there's there's no way that their work is going to go on the same journey that mine is so like i it gives it makes me like feel a little better like you know when i was at the cryogenics conference like a 50-year anniversary of this cryogenics company there was a full other doc team there and i was really upset at first because you know they're just hard to shoot around because they're like we were shooting the same events but i found a way to shoot around them and ended up becoming just friendly with them instead of antagonistic because it was just the best policy i guess the the best documentary portrayal of that whole scenario is ben berman's film the amazing jonathan did you see that oh where he's filming with this magician called the amazing jonathan and then like 10 15 minutes in he realizes another crew is kind of filming a documentary on the other days and then he realized there's a third crew and like there's so there's at least three different crews all filming the definitive biopic of this magician he's like jonathan what are you doing like we can't all be making this film and they've all got the same scenes it's a great example of me which you know it doesn't always work but he's sort of making this the the process of getting the story the story yeah um but it's strange now that we're in this world where because you and i i mean you're a bit younger than me we've lived to see how first hbo and then netflix and then other streamers have taken documentaries out of the little ghetto that they were in Sort of artistic Sort of ivory tower And brought it to a mass market But part of that is suddenly Like it's worth millions to have access To a certain story And so, you know, serial killers' wives Are getting chased by agents So they could be signed up for TV deals Yeah Do you hear about that one?

32:15That was the Long Island Do you remember? Do you hear about the Long Island? The Gilgo Yeah, the Gilgo Beach murders Yeah, yeah. Apparently the wife of the alleged murderer was besieged with show business offers. Oh, yeah. I mean, I understand why it's happening. It's quite weird, though. I get it as well. I mean, to an extent. But, you know, you've also done like kind of very topical stuff, you know, also, but in a unique and interesting way, though, like, you know, riffing the headlines. I tend to think like if it's in the headlines, it's too late. But though increasingly I sort of feel like maybe I was wrong about that.

32:52I mean, there's like the Saville stuff. But with Saville, so with Jimmy Saville, there's a few examples. Another is Joe Exotic. Yeah, yeah. There's been three or four where... But you were before that wave even. Yeah. So with Jimmy Saville, I did it 12 years before he was unmasked as a sex offender. Yeah, yeah. With Joe Exotic, it was whatever it was, like 10 years before it went viral as an internet phenomenon. on Netflix, whether it's through accident or a little bit of now, I've identified some stories that have then blown up and become huge. But at the point they become huge, you're just at the end of a long line of people trying to get the access.

33:34And I never really want to be in that position. yeah it's it's like like the the more civilian i think that the the kind of characters are i think the more interesting it is a lot of the time

34:15How is your energy, by the way? Great. Good. I might need some more water if anyone's out there. If you're listening out there, some more water for John, please. In the episode about how to find a public restroom, you arrive at like a little swampy area of New York. The Hole. The Hole, which is alleged to be below sea level. and so feces and fecal water is sort of bubbling up from the ground and there's a couple of guys living there that's like we're off the grid you know after the apocalypse we're going to be out here we're the only ones who are going to know how to live and you don't know what's gone wrong in their lives but you suspect something significant and I got a little frisson of like wow I'd like to spend time with those guys that was hard to spend time in that area because yeah I wanted to spend more time too but they, it is a really shady area, like maybe shadier than I let on in the episode because they, like there were people actively flipping cars when we were there.

35:20Flipping meaning? Escalade would show up and then they would take off the plates, like strip, like, you know, VIN and stuff and then send it back out, you know. And there were people asking us what we were doing. And it was it was really tense at a couple of moments. But thankfully, we had a relationship with those guys. And they were, they said that we were okay to these other people. in general um there are a few exceptions but in in general uh you don't make an issue of getting access it's not like we struggle to get in or and you don't also foreground conflict there's a couple of times when people say i don't want you filming me i don't give you permission um in fact one of them is in that same restrooms episode you arrive at is it a reese's pieces It's a very, I couldn't quite make out what it was.

36:18It was a Reese's peanut butter cup pop-up experience on Canal Street in Chinatown in New York. Did they throw you out? Yeah. Because, yeah, one thing I didn't, yeah, they kicked me out, yeah. Go on. um well i went in there asking for a bathroom but then uh they didn't have one and then they had this weird experience set up where it was called like a swap shop where you give that you bring the the idea is you bring them something and they give you a candy in return and it could be anything that you give them and you know it was supposed to be cute like you get you bring them uh you know um like a fork or just like something you don't really want yeah um but i went out and this is so mean basically brought back uh like a fake rat you know like in a in a bag a fake dead rat yeah fake dead rat you know to to to get a free candy back and they got really really upset by that and that's when they threatened to call the police so i condensed it in in the episode but because you could have put that in but i assume you didn't because it it felt a bit mean it felt mean and i yeah i i feel weird even admitting it now um you don't and not none of us gets it right all the way it wasn't a real dead rat no no i get it but they were upset by and you didn't well that wasn't the reaction that you wanted obviously like you weren't trying to upset them it's painful when you upset someone without meaning to um it can be quite painful is that i'm assuming that's what happened yeah or did you get annoyed with them well this was like when you know i was i was also working with nathan fielder so like we were always like thinking of kind of strange things to do that didn't always make it into the show yeah do you choose to dial down conflict at any times one of the things i'm conscious of is is that there's moments of conflict, but by and large, it doesn't feel high conflict.

38:32If you were, so with respect to the, it's called The Hole, is that? Yeah. With respect to a place like The Hole, where you're conscious there's this kind of criminal activity going on in the background, is there a version of what you shot in which you could have made more of that? Like, it's almost a cliche of documentary making that you'd ramp up, you know, something that's going on and I thought it was time to leave and I wasn't sure what was going on. I mean, these are the clichés I use. You pan around. I was conscious something was going on in the background. Yeah, after I started making the show and kind of writing in a more factory kind of way, then I would watch your stuff and I would be like, oh, wow, yeah, maybe it is just like a crutch, the whole certain phrases.

39:20Like I started to think, you know, it's hard to avoid. It's hard to avoid. And I think when I look at my older shows, it's usually the writing that I find fault with. Well, you're a little cheekier, I think, in your earlier stuff. Yeah. It's either cheeky or just lazy. I shouldn't do myself down too much. But, you know, well, I'd had a nice time talking to, you know, Jimmy, the pitch man for the infomercials. But it was time to meet someone else. I'm like, really? That's all you've got to say to get you to the next place? But, you know, you just got to keep moving sometimes. Sometimes there's a temptation to, you know, do a George Lucas and go back and rewrite.

40:09You can't do it. You can't do it. You can't, Lucas. You can't, Lucas. Never Lucas, the bumper sticker, it says. So you mentioned Nathan Fielder. He's the executive producer on the show. And in the narrative around your success, he's sometimes depicted as a kind of, whether it's a fairy godmother, godfather, a mentor or a discoverer. Or how would you describe? Well, like you, he's managed to do something on television that is distinctive, that's changed the grammar and that can credibly be described as having art, like being close to art. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. And it's most famous probably for Nathan, for you, his tongue in cheek business advice programme.

41:05but Nathan also made a series called The Rehearsal that was kind of further into whereas Nathan View kind of has some of the hallmarks of a prank show The Rehearsals which yeah he doesn't like he doesn't like that characterization no no no go on he hates it well well I mean it's yeah I mean in the same way that like when I hear the word mockumentary I like it makes my blood boil really you know I find that to be the most odious way to describe the work. Mockumentary, which I think probably is the worst of all genres. Yes. Taking the worst of nonfiction and the worst of fiction. I mean, Christopher Guest can do it and that's it.

41:53Barely. Barely. He can barely do it. Like Spinal Tap is obviously brilliant, but I don't much care for any of the others. No. I mean, I just watch, well, for your consideration, it wasn't like a documentary, a fake documentary. It was more just like. I didn't see that one, but Best in Show. Yeah, Best in Show. Waiting for Guffman. I mean, you're relying on the strength of the talent of the actors in there. But without that, I don't know. I just want to say definitively now, if you're out there making a mockumentary, stop. Yeah. Please. But who's called How To a mockumentary? I've seen it mentioned like that here and there, but I think that maybe their definition of a mockumentary was a little different.

42:38But to me, a mockumentary is like something kind of pretending to be a documentary, not a documentary that mocks people. I think that's how they were maybe defining it. Got you. And with respect to Nathan and Nathan Few, has he said, how dare you call it a prank show? I don't know, we were talking about it one day. We've talked about it a few times where like someone would characterize it as a prank show in a review or something like that. And like we'd be like reading some reviews where we were both kind of cross listed or something. And and that would like really upset him because it is much more like like artistic.

43:23And it is like I mean, that's what attracted me to all the stuff to begin with. I was such a massive fan of Nathan For You just because it did something that was like formally very familiar, like visually and everything. But the kind of content was just – had this kind of strange and like bizarre quality to it that like kind of lampooned all this stuff that you're used to. The premise is he's giving business advice to struggling businesses, but the advice is so strange and hilarious. But, you know, it is, even though there is a lot of like humor and stuff in there, like knowing him, he is working through something real, you know, and I really sense that in the work.

44:13So, like, yeah, I think that is definitely what sets it apart. I totally agree. And I think that's a good way of putting it. How sensitive are you to reviews in general and criticism in general? I feel confident with my decisions I make with the work, and I really don't think about criticism that much. I mean, the stuff that would really hurt me is if someone from the work had a serious problem with it. That's what I was really worried about when I started the show. I thought I was about to make a thousand enemies in the city of New York. Just because, like, my style is very kind of voyeuristic in that way.

45:01And I didn't know how people were going to take, you know, like, that kind of representation. But at the same time, you put yourself in there. So if you were sort of sitting in judgment in a kind of rarefied and antiseptic way, I'm the invisible auteur. Yeah, it would have a much different flavor. But you're there, like struggling with various things, living in what I assume is your real apartment and confessing aspects of, you know, being in a acapella group or your girlfriend pops up in a bit. And you see, you know, you go through a lot of life changes in a way that feels like, look, I'm down here as well.

45:45Like I'm not holding. Obviously, you have more control because you're editing and putting the shows together, but it feels like there's an appropriate level of vulnerability on your part as well. Yeah, I try to – because, I mean, these people are revealing a lot, you know, and that's – I do want that just because it's – I mean, that's the kind of curiosity I think that any journalist or, you know, you're just like trying to get to. but I always want to at least match like match the reveal like whatever they're revealing I want to match it personally with with something that that happened to me or that's currently going on in my life just so it it feels like a bit more level um because you know it's also just like a like a very much just a mental imprint as close to a mental imprint of like my thought process in the moment You know, like when I'm editing, I just like I really just want to just somehow display what I was feeling when someone was confessing something to me.

46:51And I feel like I can in my normal life, I feel like I can be a bit of a cynic. and I so much of the of the work is is is me just like trying to override that in in in certain ways and just being like I am here and this is the group in front of me and I just like maybe don't relate to them like immediately but like part of me is in there part of all of us is in here and I just need to like figure out what that is just just to like remove the cheap shot element from anything just because like there is a wrong way to do it you know there is the kind of like daily show like approach where you're just just one punchline after another you know and it's just like not humanistic it's not like fine margins in the sense of sometimes you could see it as a segment on a well on the daily show or on a kind of breakfast TV show or kind of magazine show, meet the guy who's been collecting balls of twine for more than 50 years.

48:04Yeah. Like I watch these reality shows, like whether it's like Hoarders or like anything like that, where it's like, and I feel like they just waste like such interesting people, like in their stories. And they just like, they just like kind of, they put them into this one little basket and then it's, you know, they film with them and they have their single purpose but there's this whole galaxy within all these people and I feel like they're just being burned through in this reality machine and they're not being given the time where we get to actually see the dimensionality of these people. Dignity.

48:41Yeah, but there's also the Janet Malcolm argument with the journalist and the murderer. I'm sure you're familiar. Of course. Where it's like... What's the opening line? I forget. I don't know what the other... Do you know? Any journalist who isn't too stupid to realize it or something like... or too drunk on their own virtue, it's not that... or too self-important, has to recognize that what he does is fundamentally immoral? Or like exploitative or immoral or something like that. She doesn't really mean journalism. She means immersive, long-form journalism in which you cultivate a relationship with a subject with the agenda of ultimately telling the truth, whether or not it kind of conflicts with the relationship that you have.

49:38In other words, a sort of seduce and betray style of filmmaking or journalism. Yeah. You know, I try not to be that naive where, like, I know there is something extractive happening, you know, And the relationships often don't last much longer than what's on screen just because of, like, the sheer volume of stuff you do. But like I also just like to admit that that is an aspect of it, you know, and I do like respect that idea in a way that you do have to admit to yourself as a long form journalist sometimes that this is an unnatural relationship and that maybe you are after something. no matter how ethically you're doing it.

50:37Maybe it was morally indefensible. Maybe that was the phrase. Was that the phrase? Yeah, maybe that's a little strict. When you think about times when you've been really happy doing your work, like I'm thinking mainly on location or in the field, like gathering material, where does your mind go to? Um, it's, it's always that high that I'm chasing of, of capturing something that you're the only person there that you feel like is seeing this thing. I mean, one of the most euphoric moments I had during the whole production of the show was right after I ambushed the CEO of an energy drink company at his house.

51:28And he let me in. That was in How to Drink Wine. Yeah, How to Appreciate Wine. How to Appreciate Wine. Yeah, and then he gave us this whole interview. and when I left it felt like I just like there was some kind of bank robbery that just happened and I you know I got the bag you know and what was it do you think it was just a crazy risk you know like breaking and entering to this millionaire's house and he happened to be having a Bridgerton-themed baby shower for his wife and he let you film the whole thing. And in moments like that, that is like the synchronicity of everything. Or even there was the one episode in How to Throw Out Your Batteries where I encountered this sex offender in the city And then we have this whole interview where he's talking about people feeling disposable, especially on the registry and stuff like that.

52:41And then this garbage can that he had previously commented on that was at this bus station, like the worst bus station in the city. This garbage can just ignites in flames and burns down the whole bus station. you know and it was just the most perfect metaphor for everything that had like yet to intersect up until that point and there are just like moments like that where it like it is a horrific thing that you're witnessing but it it it it just it just feels like um like like like there's some there's something manifested i don't i don't know i mean

53:33yeah like just just by thinking about something hard enough and by by trying to do it enough the world universe just provides you with it like somehow and and and i i really am not I've never been a believer in stuff like that, but it's just time and time again with the show. Like, it has happened. Should we talk for a second about how did it all come together for you? Because I know you'd studied film in school, then you had some jobs like private investigator. You worked at a home shopping channel for a while? Yeah, I worked for doing infomercials. I liked having a job where I could emotionally vacate.

54:17and not have to think about it at all when I left and just devote all my free time to making my own stuff, you know. So meanwhile, you're living where? I'm living in this cinder block, you know, like former tombstone factory in kind of Ridgewood area. I should mention your mum was a teacher. Your dad was a systems analyst. You grew up in Long Island. Yeah. So then how does it happen that you get a show on HBO? Like it feels like you went from naught to 100, right? I know you did an apprenticeship. Meanwhile, you're doing your own films, right? And you're obviously making a lot of films growing up.

55:07How did you make the leap? How did that all take place? um i think it was just by never stopping making the work um i would try to like the whole how-to project was an experiment for me from the beginning just to like see because i i like hated the sound of my own voice i hated my written word and i was afraid to like kind of combine any of that stuff so I started making like the how-to stuff just isn't it like kind of a sketch you know to begin with and I would just put it online for free and I to me it was like if they were good then people would watch it and share it with one another you know but if they were bad I would just find out the hard way and but I have like never promoted anything I've always just like put it online just as a way for me to kind of crowdsource the archiving of this material in a way also um but yeah and then I just did that for long enough and just I think made enough friends generally like within the world that it was sent to Nathan just through a mutual friend and it really spoke to him and I think people just like to feel like they've discovered something, you know, like all my favorite stuff is stuff that I've like, I feel like, you know, I've discovered like even including your stuff.

56:42And, and, um, I think the worst thing that someone can do, especially when they're starting out is, is to create barriers to the work. And like, because there's so much to compete with. And if you really believe in whatever the thing is, you should make it as available as possible, especially if it doesn't cost any money to make and that's what i love about documentary is that you don't have to spend any money making it really like you just be whatever you want it to be i mean i've seen um an early how-to which was about getting a film into or getting to sundance oh yeah what's it like so it's a short issue it's like 10 or 15 minutes but it felt tonally uh you know in terms of the writing and the aesthetic quite close to where you arrived.

57:30So I'm curious what you feel Nathan did.

57:39You think I could have done it without him? Seriously? No, no, he really like, he, I don't know how to tell a story. I could do a 10, 15 minute thing. I didn't mean that. Did it sound bitchy like what I was saying? No, not at all. Not at all. Not at all. I was being a bitch. No, Nathan helped to sculpt everything. Nathan's a really good storyteller. I was so stubborn, and I thought that I knew how my work was made, but I was just so wrong, and Nathan really beat it out of me. You know, I know we're very close with kind of, you know, we will show up. Please buckle in your seatbelts. we will shortly be landing.

58:26If you need to use the bathroom. No. So I think there was, here's where I'm going to arrive. Okay. I sometimes think of the, you know, like the happy times I've been filming and it's awful maybe to confess, but it's like it's been in very, sometimes twisted and dark situations, but in which I feel like I have a privileged glimpse or some level of intimacy. and the phrase is intimacy without commitment or intimacy without accountability. It's some version of safe intimacy, right? And so just putting that there, then a phrase that came up was in one of your other interviews where you said, I have a lot of social anxiety and the camera is very much this tool that gives relationships purpose in some way.

59:13I'm processing stuff. And which also resonates with what you were saying about Nathan and how he is dealing with real things. Yeah. Even though there's elements that are clearly tongue-in-cheek or, you know, as a joke, but there is something real there. And I'm just curious, like, what you think you're dealing with?

59:34I think that I am dealing with the fact that I do have a hard time with like close relationships of mine, like asking questions sometimes. I've heard this before and it's something I'm trying to work on where I, I think there's some emotional distance sometimes.

1:00:12and you know whether whether it's like family or longtime friends and and and I I use the work I think sometimes as a way to I think be be more kind of inquisitive and and and kind of like ask more questions and and and that bleeds into my real life in in in you know in ways sometimes but it's really just I think the act of asking questions is like is like a big kind of important kind of health like emotional health routine for me but also you know it is a it is a crutch at the same time and although it does it it gives the relationship purpose but I think it also like does create a distance at the same time you know and so yeah there is this closeness and distance thing that that I'm like always there's always been a dilemma for me and yeah I think that's what I got right now because I had something else something you want to say or yeah you don't you don't have to spill your guts by the way that's okay um i think that goes without saying right i mean the question was what this is is i suppose it's to do with emotional sustenance right like it's the sense in which um i feel like i you know sometimes life takes place behind a glass a little bit maybe everyone has a degree of that i'm i have I'm not a brilliant friend, I don't think.

1:01:58I find social arrangements quite stressful. I probably have a degree of social anxiety. And there's something about having, you know, it's an enormous privilege in the work that I do. I arrive because the groundwork has been laid, especially in the kind of thing I do where I have a producer who's already opened up various avenues of access and I'm suddenly sitting with someone. And if it's going well, a set of things take place, a sequence of things take place in which I feel like I'm just getting an insight into someone or into their life. And I'm just transported away from my day to day concerns and all of the things that I worry about disappear for a while.

1:02:44And it's almost like I'm on a vacation from myself a little bit. And so aspects of what I think makes me good at the work that I do are also overlap with qualities that I have that are probably a little antisocial or a little bit to do with not being brilliant at kind of the basics of human intercourse. Yeah, I mean, you know, all the work is a way of like kind of sublimating these kind of like very intense emotions. And I think that's why like whether it's about social anxiety, I mean that's what like small talk like started about too because Nathan and I both had like very intense, we both had very intense social anxiety.

1:03:32This was the pilot episode. Yeah, yeah. And it was just like really just getting into all of these kind of nightmare scenarios that are pretty banal but like are really like emotionally stressful for someone with social anxiety. And, you know, I just like that. I think that's why there's such like kind of deep irony within certain kind of juxtapositions within it. And I feel like it's, but they're also like universal feelings, I would hope. And that like, I think we all kind of share a lot of this, like a lot of this anxiety and that we probably view more things the same way than we realize, you know.

1:04:34Okay, welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that. Very nice to have someone come in who, well, enjoys my work.

1:04:46and was so appreciative and actually to geek out a bit as well on documentary making. If you're in the UK, you can watch all three series of How To on BBC iPlayer. And also you can watch my back catalogue if you want, including the episode about the sex offenders called Among the Sex Offenders. I'm talking about my stuff. I should be talking about John's amazing work. And they kind of do, although I was joking about the fact that, oh, I needed to see them all because there was a few I hadn't seen when I spoke to him. And since then, I have watched them all. And there is a kind of build. There is a sort of a series arc.

1:05:23And then across the whole three seasons, there's sort of an arc. And so and the last few are really good. There's one about that condition where you're allergic to life. You know, and there's a town where all these people have congregated because they're having a reaction to whether it's like radio waves or whatever it is, because I think it's a controversial diagnosis. And in fact, what's funny-ish in the episode is that there's various people claiming they have the illness, but saying that the other person who claims that they have the illness isn't legit. so there's this strange disparagement of each other like they haven't really got it, they're faking everyone is calling everyone else a faker we talked about NXIVM and The Vow, the documentary series which I haven't seen all of there's also one called Seduced which is pretty good what I did watch recently was a documentary series called Stolen Youth about a kind of cult that existed at Sarah Lawrence, the American University.

1:06:32I recommend that. It's on Disney+. I watch anything that's about cults, basically. If it's a decent documentary, I'm an easy date. Is that the term? You'll find me a receptive audience. The Janet Malcolm quote, which is always being mentioned, I got it pretty much right. The quote is from the journalist and the murderer from 1990, and it is, every journalist who is not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible. Yeah, that's a bit much, isn't it? I would love to talk to Nathan Fielder, if Nathan's listening. He's got a new season of the rehearsal out on HBO, I believe.

1:07:18Would he come on the podcast? I do know him a little bit. I'll just send him a message. I feel like he doesn't readily agree to doing many interviews, like deep dive interviews. I think almost it's part of his craft or his art, if you like, that he wants to maintain a little bit of, is it, you know, mystery or distance or he wants the work to speak for itself. definitely watch um finding francis which was the season finale i don't know it was about maybe 70 minutes almost feature-length documentary in which he goes on the road with a bill gates impersonator to track down his lost his long lost love the bill gates impersonators long lost love and then it just gets stranger as it goes on it's genuinely kind of weird and funny and troubling in parts and famously got a great write-up by Errol Morris, the documentary maker, who kind of claimed it as a brilliant piece of art.

1:08:27So Nathan, let's hook it up. He might do it. What was it John said not to call him? A prankster. Just don't call him a prankster. Things that I don't like to be called. No, nothing. Faux naive i'm fine they call that that's what they mainly call me is faux naive bbc wacky presenter fine don't call me a podcast host lucky you he didn't like that because it's like how's the podcast always sounds faintly like demeaning how's the podcast because everyone's got a podcast you know people think they're being like hi louie how's the podcast like are you trying to make me feel small i'm an esteemed filmmaker i'm not i'm a journalist a broadcaster and a podcast host how's the podcast how's the garden do you know what i mean how it just feels small i feel like it's important that i do other things with the podcast if it was just podcast Don't be lame Okay When you're in a hole, stop digging That's it for now Oh yes, credits The producer was Millie Chu It's a long suffering The assistant producer was Amelia Gill The production manager was Francesca Bassett And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify

1:10:08Thank you.