S5 EP5: Little Simz discusses her new album, growing up with adopted siblings, and working with Drake

0:05Hi, it's me, Louis Theroux, and welcome to my podcast. It's called the Louis Theroux Podcast because it's my podcast, and I'm Louis Theroux.

0:20Today I'm speaking to Mercury Prize-winning rapper and artist Simbiatu Ajikawu, better known as Little Sims. After the release of her highly acclaimed first three albums, Sims rose to prominence with the release of her 2021 album Sometimes I Might Be Introvert, for which she won the 2022 Mercury Prize and a Mobo and Brit Award. Across her catalogue of music, Little Sims streams stand at over one billion. You might be familiar with her viral hit Venom, it was big on TikTok, or her feature on Coldplay's We Pray, which she performed with them at Glastonbury last year. Outside of music, Sims has starred in the Netflix revival of Top Boy.

1:00You surely have seen that, based on a hackney housing estate follows the lives of young people struggling and two men in particular who are trying to get ahead in the drugs and gang world. Sims plays the girlfriend of one of the main drug lords. We recorded this chat in February earlier this year ahead of the release of her latest album, Lotus, which is excellent, by the way. Do check it out. I met her once before at Skepta's fashion show. That was also where I met Mia Khalifa. It was like a Louis Theroux podcast turkey shoot. I was just picking up guests willy-nilly. That's an odd phrase, isn't it?

1:41A warning, there's a bit of strong language in the episode. Sorry about that. That's all coming up. Stay tuned.

2:07So this is the first album in two years. Is it? Isn't it? What? No, thank you. Help me out. I'm going to have to look at my research. Two, end of 2022. End of 2022. We're at the beginning of 2025 now. Yeah. What's that all about?

2:28What's that all about? Oh, man. The creative process, Louis, man, it's long. Yes. I also needed a break. I think it was, like, pretty full-on the past few years, so I just needed a sec to just do life, really, and rediscover kind of where I want to go musically and what I want to talk about. So, yeah, I think two years is a stretch, But I put out an EP in that gap, which was more like leaning into the electronic dance world, which I've always wanted to make a project like that. So it just felt fitting to try and explore that for that EP. But yeah, now back with another full length. What's your process?

3:18Because there's the themes. I want to talk about some of the themes of your music generally, of your artistry. But I'm also curious about process. you're obviously a brilliant lyricist and your level of introspection your ability to dig deep emotionally and actually your honesty like I get that and maybe it's the obverse of not wanting to talk that much about personal stuff IRL the obverse of that is that you are you're like an open book in the lyrics like it's all there you talk about the most personal stuff about a fraught relationship that you have with your father, there's stuff about your brother, there's stuff about loss, tragedy, all of that, that you put work into the lyrics, that they're written.

4:07Yeah, I write them down after I figured out like a cadence, like how I want to sit on the beat or instrument or, you know, whatever. Even if it's chords, like sometimes I'll just kind of freestyle voice note a flow that I have. And then if that feels like fitting with what the music's doing, I'll then write my lyrics to that. But it varies. It changes. Like sometimes I'll just have words that I've written. I'm always right. I like journaling because I can... Sometimes life moves so fast and so it's useful for me to document and to write things down so I can have things to refer to. You collaborate quite closely with a producer called Inflow.

4:59Is that right? I did, yeah. You did on this album? I didn't on this album. Who did you work with musically on this one? A producer called Miles Clinton-James because I've known for some time, really, really talented musician and producer. And we, yeah, kind of just locked in. I always like working with people that isn't afraid to just show up at the studio and be like, cool, we can go any direction. It's not got to be, we're not doing a strictly hip hop song with crazy breakbeats or whatnot. Or we, you know, some days I'm like, let's just try something where we can lean into the orchestral space or let's try something that feels quite boss and ovary.

5:40And I felt Miles was just super, super open and happy to go in any direction and, yeah, let me lead as well. What I picked up was that coming into it, you were filled with self-doubt. You talk about feeling like you've got writer's block, that this isn't maybe the path for you anymore. Yeah. I was lonely making an album. I attempted it four times, lost my confidence and you wouldn't believe why. Sitting in the studio with my head in my hands, thinking what am I to do with this music? I can't write. Then later on you say, team falling apart and I'm caught in the crossfire. What was going on? Just a lot of change.

6:30It was a very transitional period. in life. I kind of wish I lent on my family. Like I feel, you know, my family, I love them so much. They're so important to me. Your mum and your three siblings? Basically. Yes, yes. Obviously that's my family of origin. They have known me since I've come out of the womb. Right, because you're the youngest. I'm the youngest, yeah. And so because I'm the baby in my family, like I kind of wanted to subconsciously proved that now I've got I can stand on my own I can figure things out I can make my own decisions just that and the third because it's very protective so I've always had this like you know like I just I just go and do my thing I'll travel what whatnot and then in moments like that when I listen to that song it's like I wish I didn't feel like I had to be strong all the time or make like I've got it all figured and covered and um so yeah I think that song Lonely was like you know feeling like that and that in the creative realm as well having to essentially make a record that I kind of I'm struggling to believe in which is weird because I've always had Like, I've always been a confident kid.

7:55I've always believed in myself. So the minute I'm, like, plagued with self-doubt, I'm like, whoa, this is mad. Like, I don't know how to deal with this. I don't know if this is the path I should be continuing. It's very sad to me, like, considering this is, yeah, I've done this my whole life, you know. So, yeah. Because, yeah, you also say something about, I don't even know who I'm meant to be anymore. Yeah. Why would that be? Is it to do with the marketplace of trying to cater to what you feel the industry or the audience wants you to be? No, I've never really catered to, like, what anyone wants me to be.

8:41I think I've always just been me and I've always just been myself. but I think I do definitely put a lot of pressure or have done a lot of pressure on myself to be the best. And I think, again, going back from when I was younger, kind of being in a circle of boys in a sci-fi and like trying to get my verse in and then knowing that when it's my time to drop my 16 bar, it has to be the best because I'm the only girl in the scenario. When you were coming up, you mean? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just a lot of pressure and a lot of weight of having to always want to cut through. Maybe that's part of your process is trying to dig deep.

9:23You know what I mean? Like I'm maybe overanalyzing it because it obviously sounds like a big existential statement. I don't even know who I'm meant to be anymore. But perhaps that's just part of how you get the best out of yourself. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. So that's simple. In terms of how you came up, I mean, there's stuff on YouTube and on the internet of you rapping when you're like 11 years old maybe yeah and it was played on radio one extra but i was trying to figure out what what the occasion was my sister just took me there and she's like yeah like it's what we're doing today you got some lyrics ready kind of just went and just done my thing but i remember being ready like i didn't i don't i don't i wasn't nervous i wasn't it just always felt like yeah like i meant i meant to do this to a studio somewhere to the bbc where we done that freestyle it was me and a singer called kyra and then heartless crew and um yeah i just came can you remember the bars my real name is simby my tag name is sims don't watch me in the way i'm rocking my tims 10 years from now i'll be rolling in my ben sims simmer who got the key to I don't get carried away.

10:37It's not all about rims, not about showing off with your bling bling, not about bomb threats and victim because it's all about your mind and the power of the pen. Look, I'm little Sims and I set trends. Don't like liars. I hate fake friends. Don't like people that hate on Sims, but I do like Jollof rice on the weekends. That's amazing. Yeah. And then you referenced that on, what, on Gorilla? Yeah. Sim Simmer, who got the keys to my blood clot, Bimmer. Right? Yeah. Was that coming full circle in a way? Yeah, for sure. How old were you when you started writing? Nine. Really? Yeah. Who were you inspired by?

11:19Missy Elliott. Really? Yeah. So, beep beep, who got the keys to the Jeep? Vroom! Right? Is that what you were referencing partly in Sim Simmer? um or not no i think it was she what was it about her i just thought she was cool like i thought she always had the flyest like adidas track suits on she had the coolest dances in her videos her videos are always so out of the box so visual like to the point where if i say a song title my brain just will picture the video you know it's so like powerful what she'd done with visual music the perfect blend and I just it just felt like she was herself and that really stuck and that resonated with me like yeah because I was quite the tomboyish type and so I didn't really see anyone else at the time that felt like oh if you're like that it can work and you can still you know do amazing things in this life and blow or whatever just being yourself so yeah i was heavily inspired by missy for sure it was so distinctive there was that fish eye lens i don't know which video it was do you remember the one yeah pretty sure where she's she's sort of popping i think it might be super duper fly where she's in the black i don't know she looks like a space alien and she's doing funny body-popping moves.

12:56She's wearing a big puffer jacket. Yeah. And which one? Do you know the one where it sounds like she's speaking backwards? Yeah, work it. That is work it. Yeah, yeah. It's all coming back to me. It was a long time ago. Yeah, come on. How did you do it? Yeah, come on. Yeah. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. That's so bad. Okay. And she wasn't selling sexuality, right? She was selling something else, like vision. For sure. I enjoy rap as a whole. One of my favourite, like, lyricists of all time is Nas. Yeah. And I remember my brother playing me Nas for the first time.

13:39And I was young as well, and I didn't understand, like, the real depth of what he was talking about. But I just knew this guy is mad smart. Whatever he's saying, my brother is... I've never seen him connect so deeply to music, the way he's connected with Nas. And that, I don't know, done something to me at a young age, like, wow, like, this is really hitting. And then as I got older and I start deciphering his lyrics and taking him in, it's like, OK, I understand, like, what you're saying and how you're storytelling and how you're literally just speaking your experiences in your life. Lauryn Hill was someone that was amazing at that as well.

14:26But I've known, OK, that's the kind of artist I want to be, you know. There was loads at the time. There was like Busta Rhymes. He had a similar... Ludacris. Yeah, that was the era of whatever. It was almost being a cartoon character. Yeah, yeah. It's cool, man. Have you met those people? Yeah, I've met Busta. I've spoken to Buster loads of times, yeah. He's really cool, man. I think he's phenomenal. Like, his rapping. Mm-hmm. Is he a nice guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really nice. The first time I spoke to him, I think I was in Jamaica, like, he hit me up. Was he a fan? And, yeah. Yeah, we were just showing mad love, like, just super nice, super respectful, like, just nice guy.

15:08And we have spoken about doing... We've actually worked some stuff. Have you? Yeah. Did you get in the studio? We haven't properly got in the studio studio, but we've, yeah, just back and forth been sending each other ideas. Remotely, really sending each other, what, beats and lyrics? Beats, lyrics, verses, like, little hook ideas, like, you know, just throwing paint at a wall, really. He spits so fast. Yeah, he's quick with it. He used to be a lifeguard in Morecambe. Really? In the north of England. Did you know that? I didn't. That's one of those, like, pub quiz facts. He must have some British family and obviously grew up in America and then would have spent maybe a year or a summer in the north of England and he was a lifeguard.

15:54Had no idea. Crazy, strange. Yeah. Imagine having your life set, you were struggling out, swimming in the breakers and then you're like, oh no, this is it, I can't manage, I'm dying. And then Buster Rhymes swam up and saved your life. That would be quite surreal, I would have thought. Yep. Insane. I've read in the past that you don't even think of yourself as an MC necessarily or at least that's just basically there was an interview with Cathy Newman where she called you a female MC and you're like that's not really a label I identify with I shut it down Was that the female part or the MC part?

16:34Maybe both It's just like you get wound up it's not it just feels a bit lazy And I understand, like, sometimes it's the quickest and easiest way to just identify what someone is, but it just never really sat well with me, that title. I get it. I think I'm just an artist, you know, and that's it. Can I make things really awkward? Go on. So on the album... Yeah. ...have you listened to it quite closely? Yeah. The first track is called Thief. Mm-hm. And you are shouting someone out. That's not the term. You are basically identifying someone who's misused you. There's people I've known my whole life come in like the devil in disguise.

17:23Then you say your company's going down the hill. Thank God I never signed no deal. Damn. Financial exploitation, emotional exploitation. And then in Hollow, later on, you talk about someone. Daylight robbery of my soul. My world got smaller. Couldn't believe it was somebody I know. Smooth talker. You told me be wary of the sharks and then you became one. What can anybody truly expect from a day one? It's real shit. That is real shit. Someone did you dirty. Yeah, people do that in life though, don't they? Well, hopefully not often. Hopefully not often. Yeah, there are people who... People lay down, you know what I mean?

18:03People disappoint you and hurt you. Definitely. and abuse you yeah for sure and thankfully it didn't break me could have but I came out stronger and thankfully I've been blessed with like a place to channel everything I feel so I just tried to I tried to be honest and I think it's yeah the album definitely touches on a lot of raw subjects but I didn't want it to feel like dark and depressing or like I still feel there's light I still feel there's like moments of feeling uplifted and that breakthrough which is essentially kind of what a lotus is like it's like you know this is a flower that thrives in muddy waters that once it pierces through, it becomes this beautiful thing.

19:07And that is, you know, regardless of what you've done or where you come from or what you've been through or who's hurt you, you can still use that to channel something beautiful, you know. So I just try to use my music as a space to, like, allow me to thrive in muddy waters. And it doesn't feel, like you said, it doesn't feel dark or depressing. feels angry at times yeah for sure i mean it's raw emotion it's raw emotion yeah um i get the sense that music for you is often a way of processing something yeah trauma um grief does that make sense does that resonate with you 100 i really struggle with or have i think it's gotten better like since i've started therapy and i've like confronted this issue i have with like talking because I've always been like a listener and yeah I don't I don't really say too much like I've never been loudest in the room like it's just not my personality and so it was always easier for me to process things by writing stuff even if when I was younger I wanted to ask my mum something like a bit uncomfortable difficult I'll write her a letter and like give it to her like that just so I didn't want to get in front of her and then freeze and then not be able to say what I wanted to say and then you know so I just write it down and like cool you can read it or write has always it's just always been easier for me to process like that and get what I truly want to say out but now I think I'm getting a lot better at just um yeah saying saying how I feel on the spot if If something bothers me or if I feel way about something, it's still hard.

20:52I think it's hard for a lot of people. But, yeah, it's a process, isn't it? Are you good at that? I'm somewhere in the middle. Yeah. I kind of toggle between performance mode, party manners, where I'll sort of show up and do my best to be funny and amuse people. And then I can also feel at times like, you know, I struggle with confrontation, sometimes articulating my feelings. Do you think that is dependent on like who it is you're speaking to? Or is that like? I like listening. I find speaking quite draining. Really? Yeah. And in my relationships. You're really good at it. Oh, thank you. In my relationships, I would prefer.

21:37I mean, the reason I do my job, which is obviously interviewing people, is because genuinely I'm curious about people. and I find it quite relaxing. Really? Yeah, to hear someone sort of downloading whatever they are dealing with. I think, I wonder if it's, because we're both younger, you're youngest of four, I'm younger of two, and I feel like there's almost like you're the one in the back of the car who's not speaking. Listening. Just listening to it all going on around you. That becomes quite a comfortable role. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Watching it all happen. Yeah, that's so true. And feeling a bit like a plus one, you know, feeling a bit like you're not the main event, you're not the headliner I'm being cool with that I'm fine with it, I enjoy it and just sort of thinking I'm definitely not what this situation is about and I'm just going to see what happens but then a little part of me was also supposed to be the court jester like I was supposed to be the funny one as well but I was kind of, that was a bonus but I think introvert is a big word for you isn't it, in terms of obviously you have your album, sometimes I might be introvert and the feeling of, this is I think what you're talking about.

22:42It's the feeling of introversion. The feeling of not necessarily wanting to share. Yeah. Right? Yeah, for sure.

22:51So I said I was going to make it awkward. Are we going to put the name out there of the person being addressed in Thief? It sounds like it's someone in the industry. I think the album is my most personal yet. and the the album that probably was for sure the hardest for me to make on so many levels because I knew if I'm going to take it I'm going to take it there and I'm going to have to touch on things that are going to be uncomfortable and that are going to be hard to talk about as well because it's a lot of like it's essentially kind of feels like dealing with grief you know in the eyes of everyone and being so inviting to letting people in on that process and how that feels and how i'm dealing with it and like you said there's a lot of anger there's a lot of when you say grief do you mean the grief or because we were speaking about what i think i get the sense we're probably not going to unpick thief like the specifics of who it's about it's probably just as well but is it the feeling of grief at feeling like people you collaborated with or friends of yours that you knew from early on weren't the friends that you needed them to be or is there other grief that you're talking about just the ending just something coming to an end what was coming to an end sad well i'm moving on like and other people are moving on you know i mean it's like a team breaking up a team breaking up a separation a part in a you know that's this is closed you know And there's so much investment into that friendship or whatever it is, whether it's working on music or, you know, which that legacy will always be there and that will always continue.

24:41But it's just this next phase, this next chapter is no longer. And that hurts, you know, I'm not like made of like stone or something like I feel a lot. And I feel it's hard to like lose people. And it's sad. but I always um I'm always gonna have my music and that's what I'm so grateful for like I'm always gonna have this thing even though it's it was so challenging to make this record and as I was saying emotionally yeah and big up Miles because he really like helped me overcome a doubt that I just felt like I don't know how I'm gonna I might be wasting your time here mate I'll be honest you know yeah for sure you know I can't look at you and say by the end of this we're definitely going to have an album that's going to be wicked you know I don't feel that I'm not feeling it at all but I'm going to show up every day every day I'm going to come here and I'm going to give my best and if you're just patient with me I'll do what I can and that's with this with all the collaborators I just have to be honest with everyone like I don't know what you think you're stepping into but I don't feel like I've got it right now whatever it is that you think I've got I definitely don't feel like I've got that so I haven't got it as in I don't have literally just the words or I don't have the um sort of the mental bandwidth or I don't I mean because you've got the intention right yeah but I feel like I ain't got the source like I ain't got the recipe to make this thing I don't know what version of sims you're gonna get yeah it's a tough one when did you start with the therapy um it's been a year yeah that can help um one other thing in terms of processing trauma um i mean what came up in the notes was that a friend of yours who was a fashion model had been stabbed in shepherd's bush and killed he was actually killed wasn't he yeah and that's referenced in some of your lyrics i think what was his name harry uzoka and he was a he was a young fashion model yeah yeah yeah yeah um but the loveliest boy like just harry was literally one of 10 people at my shows you know when no one knew who i would like just always had championed me always believed in me always like Like, anytime we go and meet new people, he's like, trust me, Sims is next.

27:18Like, this is, and I'll be like, Harry, like, stop. Like, just all shy and like, you know, but he, yeah, always, always had my back. So that was definitely, yeah, super hard and tough to deal with process. Still miss him very dearly. but yeah when I think about it I just think yeah he will definitely be so proud of everything that's happening now and yeah rest in peace Harry yeah having brought that up it's like it's such a sad thing to deal with so I'm going to try and put a veil over that and I want to talk about probably your biggest track Venom it is it's 141 million on YouTube is it? Yeah why did that one blow up?

28:06Why? Yeah. I don't know. My guess is like, never giving credit where it's due, you don't like pussy in power. Maybe that line. Right. That's exactly right. It's a woman's world, so to speak. Pussy, you sour, never giving credit where it's due because you don't like pussy in power. It's quite an image. You're funny, man. What about, um, it says N-words, excuse my French, pussy licking batty and shit.

28:43Can you unpack that line?

28:48I am dead. It goes moving scatty. Okay. If you don't want to see dead bodies, probably not. They ain't rolling with no automatic clips. moving scatty all erratic and shit and pussy licking batty and shit. Just like kissing arse, basically. Right. Just like, they're just moving weird. You're not saying they're batty. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying... I'm definitely not saying that. I'm saying like... Yeah, just kissing arse. Just like sucking up. Right. Did it blow up on TikTok? I think it done all right, yeah. It's crazy what the algorithm can do. Mm-hmm. Do you make a lot of money from streams or is most of your income from doing shows or maybe brand deals and fashion stuff?

29:37I think I'm a pretty well-rounded... It's a bit of everything. ...individual. Yeah. Yeah, man, I'm all right, man. We're at Spotify. You know we're at Spotify HQ, so... I heard. We can't talk shit about them, but people say that in the industry. Have you heard this? Some artists feel they're not getting enough from their streams. I mean, everyone's not getting enough of anything. I'm getting too much. Oh, well, then there you go. There you have it. Now we've solved the problem. That was a joke. Some people are getting too much. Yeah, maybe some people are getting too much, but the point is it's human nature to want more.

30:16There's like, yeah, fair enough. I get it. You're not going to throw shade at Spotify. I'm not throwing shade at anyone. I come on humble, peace and love vibes, you know. Your company going down the hill. Thank God I never signed no deal. Damn. Whose company? Whose company, Louis?

31:04Top Boy. Yeah. Kano brought you in for the audition. Yeah. Is that true? Yeah, I saw that at Kano. You knew him just from the London music scene? I met Kano through my first manager and he just off rip was a show in love and kind of anything I needed if it was advice, which was super nice because at the time as well, I didn't, I felt like when you're young and up and coming, it's like you have so many like questions and things you want to ask and things you want to know but you don't really know who to turn to or who to ask or who to reach out to or that fear of like not hearing, but whatever it is, you know.

31:48So Kano was one of the first people that made his presence very apparent in my career, my life. I was like, yo, I got you anything you need, you know. So, yeah, just from that point, he's just always been hailing me up and showing mad love and having my back for sure. So he'd been on the Channel 4 seasons of Top Boy, right? Yeah. And then did you come on board for the Netflix versions? Yeah, exactly. Where they kind of, it went global and Drake got involved. I don't think Drake was there that much, was he? He came to the read-through. Did he? Yeah, and premiere. So are you tight with Drake? No.

32:44LAUGHTER

32:50Yeah, nah. LAUGHTER