S5 EP8: Michael Cera on working with Tom Cruise, featuring in 'Barbie', and never graduating

28:23That's I think what I mean. Yeah. Because if you don't think of yourself as being a dick. Right. And then you notice you being angry by things that maybe you think other people wouldn't be triggered by. Then you're like, gosh, maybe I am a dick. Other people handled it much better than me, too. Some people like it. Some people like it. Like, I worked with Jack Black in 2009. So this is still right around that time. Year one. Apparently that's being rediscovered now. Yeah. Well, some people like it. Some people like it. It's kind of funny. Some people like it. I wish I'd watched it as prep for this because I'd be able to say, like, I really enjoyed it.

28:56I liked the post. Well, you know, friends, like, I've worked with Kenneth Lonergan. Yes, the amazing playwright. Who's a genius. And he really likes that movie. Yeah. He's like, I like year one. You play two cavemen? Yeah, we're cavemen and it's like a biblical comedy. And it's directed by Harold Ramis. Harold Ramis, the legend. Director of... Groundhog Day. Groundhog Day. Ghostbusters. Didn't direct Ghostbusters but wrote it. He didn't direct Ghostbusters. No. He's in fucking Ghostbusters. He's in fucking Ghostbusters. That's the point. He was an amazing guy. I mean, you know, I would never trade the experience of making that movie.

29:34It was one of the greatest times I ever had working on a movie. But with Jack, Jack Black, he was mega famous. He's probably more famous now, possibly. He's just been in the Roblox movie. He's in so many movies. Which I recommend. What is that? What are you talking about? How old is your oldest child? Three and a half. Are you talking about Minecraft? Isn't he in that? Oh, shit. What did I say? Roblox. Yeah. You meant Minecraft? Yeah, I did. So it was natural for me to be confused. Yeah, I'm afraid so. Because you said something that made... They should make a Roblox movie, though. What is roadblocks?

30:05First of all, it's Roblox, not roadblocks, but a very understandable mistake. I don't feel like I made a mistake yet. I feel like you have. Roblox. R-O-B-L-O-X. And it's, I feel like this is not my audience or my demographic. It's really for kids aged. So it's a kid's thing. Four to 12. Is it a toy? It's an online platform in which people can design their own very primitive video games. and then they basically, so it's kind of crowd-sourced programming but they're very blocky and basic. Oh, that sounds great. That's why I've... Make old kind of platform games. Yeah, I've alighted it with... Minecraft.

30:45Mine-fucking-craft. Yeah. Retake. No, keep all that in. That's good stuff. Don't lose that stuff. He's in the... Jack Black is in the Minecraft. I recommend the Minecraft film. Jack is... Yeah, I mean, he's like in every movie right now that makes like$4 billion. He's a giant, giant star. But he was then already... Did you see the Minecraft movie? No, I haven't. Okay. I'm sorry. That's all right. I haven't seen anything. I haven't seen Enora yet. Really? It's like I have two small kids right now. Enora was on my list of things to ask you about. I can't remember why, though. I'm dying to see it.

31:16It's very cool. I love Sean Baker. Yeah. I think that's why you should be in a Sean Baker film. Yeah. Has he asked? No. What's your list of, I know we're on a tangent, of directors you would most... My list? Like to work with that might surprise people. I'll start. Michael Haneke. Yes. Right? I love Michael Haneke. I heard you mention Michael Haneke in your Mark Maron interview. He's amazing. For people at home, legendary director. We've always used the word legendary. No, he's amazing. Cineist, auteur from Austria with. One of the greats. What is the word? Ascetic and disturbing depictions of cruelty, funny games.

32:01Benny's video, White Ribbon. Benny's video. So good. We're the only two people in this country who have probably seen that. It's great. That's the one before Funny Games. Do you remember it? The kid gets obsessed with a video of a pig getting executed. Yeah, I completely remember it. It's crazy, that movie. Would you do a Michael Haneke film? Oh, of course. I hope he makes another film soon. It's been a little while. Do you think he's on hiatus? Yeah, I hope he makes something. I mean, I think he's incredible. I love The Castle. Kafka. That's a Hanukkah. Yeah, it's fantastic. But Sean Baker is great.

32:40That's a huge list of people that I would love to work with. I love Hong Song-soo. I'd love to work with him. I would be able to say something now if I knew who that was. You know, he's South Korean. He's making like three movies a year. What was his most famous one? The most famous one... I don't really know that he's quite broken through into like the lexicon like yet. But he has a movie called Right Now, Wrong Then, which is the first one I saw. And it was just like, this is amazing. And he has another one called Yourself and Yours. Claire's Camera is what, but he really, he has so many. He really does do like three a year.

33:21He has like almost every film festival he's at. And he was a juror at Cannes just now. I was hoping to meet them but then I was told you can't meet the jurors because there's some fear that you might bribe them or something which you would never do let's make that clear your point though is you could just Venmo them or something you don't have to meet in person in order to do it going on the dark web get some crypto it's not that complicated it's very simple you can get anything on the dark web so they say you just need a Tor browser your point was Jack Black took to fame so gracefully yeah I mean Jack you know the way he handled it it really did make me feel ashamed he was so born for it now I don't feel ashamed I feel like you know I react the way I react and that's me and that you know some people are great some people are extroverts and I'm not and I kind of don't like shame myself about it anymore you wrote two things that I enjoyed One was a Shouts and Murmurs humor piece for The New Yorker.

34:28Oh, I'm glad you read that. Called My Man Jeremy. Yeah. And a short story for McSweeney's, Dave Eggers' amazing literary journal. Yeah, quarterly kind of magazine. Yeah, and that was a short story called... Pinecone, it's called. Pinecone, about an actor called Carol Silver. Yeah. Which is sort of... It's amazing you're bringing this up. Oddly... It's 20 years ago I wrote it, I think. Yeah, it would make sense. I think I was 18, yeah. It felt like, and that, you know, on the surface, Carol Silver somewhat rhymes with Michael Cera, I'm pointing that out, my detective work, and he's an actor who's struggling with aspects of fame and his reaction to fame.

35:08Yeah, yeah. And it felt like you're processing something in both those pieces, right? Probably, because I never thought of that. Come on. You're right. No, it's true. I mean, I just thought it was kind of a funny character. It's not me, that character, but yeah, it was probably a catharsis. He has a tantrum at a woman at a fast food restaurant because she says she doesn't like one of his movies. So he goes, oh, really? Oh, wow. I don't know. It's so funny. I don't even. And then starts throwing money at her to reimburse her for the price of the ticket. Did you get popcorn? Well, let me cover that too.

35:39Oh, my God. Right. And then he has extreme shame about it. And then he gets shame. Yeah. And then he runs out of money and realizes he can just ask for the money back. Oh, yeah. And he asks her for the money back. That's right. Wow, thanks for telling me the premise of something I wrote and me enjoying it a lot Do you write much now? Yeah, well I'm trying to make a movie now The last few years I've been kind of producing a few screenplays One by myself, one with a couple friends One was announced and I think the cast was released Is that in production? We're trying to shoot it this fall Love is not the answer Yeah Are you also doing a Charles Portis adaptation?

36:18Yes Are you a Charles Portis fan? I could see that Yes. Yeah. Well, he started as a journalist. You saw me coming. I could imagine that you would love him, yeah. Have you read many of it? He's an American novelist, not as well known as he should be. He's dead now, died in 2020. Best known for True Grit. Right. Which was made into a couple of well-known films. Yeah. Do you have a favorite book of his? Well, I have adapted Masters of Atlantis. I haven't read that one. Okay. Well, it would be easy to say that's my favorite, I think. But I also love Dog of the South. I love True Grit. But True Grid I read in one day, which is not my style at all.

36:54I don't normally get through a novel in a day. But I remember just, I was like halfway through it at one point. And I was just like, I'm just going to read this whole thing today. What's Masters of Atlantis about? It's about a secret society, secret brotherhood called the Gnomans. And the man who is sort of the figurehead, who sort of accidentally becomes like the leader of this cult. It's very funny. It spans sort of decades. I mean, we don't get too into the weeds, but what was it about it that sort of felt connected with you and felt that you felt that it was something that was worth putting on screen?

37:34Well, I had been wanting to collaborate with a friend of mine named Vernon Chapman, who's a brilliant comedy writer, and my other friend Antonio Campos, who's a writer and director. And yeah, it started as that. It was like, well, this would be a really fun thing for us all to make. And then it's been very challenging to get it made because we actually adapted it into a miniseries rather than a movie. It was just kind of too hard to fit into a feature. And one of my favorite formats is like the four part kind of unabridged movie like the Bergman ones, like scenes from a marriage and Fanny and Alexander.

38:09And so and once we kind of figured out that we could shape it like that, it all felt very right. So I've been pushing that along. Is there any Scientology overlap? it'd be easy to find overlap one could extrapolate that a bit actually you know I don't know if Portis was thinking that but like you know the Scientologists have that SPs you know they call people SPs I believe I am an SP you seem like an SP I could spot that from a mile away I opened the door a crack and you just you came barreling through it's like kind of written all over you but in the book we try to tell people what SP stands for a suppressed person isn't it suppressive Suppressive.

38:47Yeah. That's better. I guess. Suppressed is like... It's a sociopath. Suppressed is like you're suppressed, but if you're suppressive, you're going to be affecting others with your suppressiveness. Yeah. You are basically infecting... You're a sociopath who is kind of has a contagious immorality that's preventing other people from being their best selves. And journalists, by definition, are SPs. But in Masters of Atlantis, there's a term that the gnomans use, which is PS. So it does feel like a little, you know, at least you could kind of project an overlap onto that. It could, you know, could be inspired by.

39:23But I mean, I don't know. There's none of the perniciousness in the Charles Portis novel. They're sort of harmless, you know, so I don't know. I'd be curious if he was. I would love to ask him. You've never. Have you had any exposure to Scientology? No, but I'm sure I will be treated to some after this discussion. I don't think you've said anything. Oh, I'm not picking a fight. Have you worked with Tom Cruise? I haven't worked with Tom Cruise. Oh, yes, I have.

39:50Crazy thing to forget. I love that. I mean, I dream of the day when I forget working with Tom Cruise. Yeah, I did work with Tom Cruise. But the memories just won't go. It was the MTV Movie Awards. And I don't even know if you ever have seen those. Of course. Yeah, okay. They did like, you know, funny intro movie video things that they did pre-taped funny things. and Tom Cruise did one where he was playing his character from Tropic Thunder. Of course. You know, the movie mogul guy. Co-written by my cousin Justin. Yeah, great movie. I'd like to name drop that where I can. And so they did like, you know, some little, they were shooting all day these little, you know, clips of him and that character interacting with various people coming in and out.

40:34And I came in and I did a little moment with him. Nice. On that, yeah. It was surreal to work with Tom Cruise. It was very good. It was fascinating. Tom like you know runs the set I mean I was really there for like five minutes but what I observed was like he was you know like the first AD on the set I don't know if that term means anything he was like the guy he was like let's shoot this way first he's got to catch a flight let's get you know we'll get this and then we'll come around to that like I mean he was it was his thing you know and it was everybody was like yeah I mean he was such a leader and um it's surreal to meet Tom cruise and he was you know he like was very friendly the first moment i had with him i arrived they were like shooting and i was like talking to the writer the guy who was writing these scripts uh about the thing we were just kind of mumbling while they were shooting but they could hear us and it was like it was just like 40 feet away and tom cruise looks at me i've never met him and they're in the middle of a take and he looks and he goes is that michael cera talking during a fucking take i think he was joking yeah but it was also like do shut up you know but um so surreal take some and then i met him he's like talking during a fucking day i was like and i knew he was playing around so i was like hey it wasn't me it was the writer he was like i'm kidding i'm kidding and i was like i'm kidding i'm kidding too so many levels would you take a role in a mission impossible movie you've sort of resisted franchises well i don't think i have a franchise resistance i think i uh i think i know what you're referring to i think i turned one down did you once yeah i did which one are you allowed to say it was a harry potter one the fantastic beasts really i mean i don't even know if i was offered i think i just declined to to engage with it because um and i really think the reason was i didn't want well i think it would be like probably six years commitment or something and um but also like we were talking about earlier i i did sort of uh make a conscientious choice to like I don't know, like limit my exposure a little bit or something, or just try and be a little more in control of it.

42:41And I felt like doing like especially little kids movies, I don't know, I had like a big fear of doing things that I'd get too famous a little bit. I think that's changed a little. I think I've outgrown that particular feeling, but I think that's what that was at that time. But if like a franchise came along now and seemed interesting. I don't think on the grounds of it being a franchise, I would leave the office, storm out of the office or anything. If they created a superhero, yeah, Marvel. You haven't gotten aversion to the Marvel. Like a superhero who is a big fan of Derry. I could play Derry Products.

43:21Derry. I thought you were saying Derry. I was like, it's a place in Ireland. There's a joke here and I'm not... That would be very specific. That would be quite weird. But you were right that there was a joke that you were not.

43:58we should talk how are we doing for time we're good how are you feeling I feel good Thank you for doing this I feel great I'm enjoying it I'm a little self-conscious always That I'm a very boring person to listen to But I just have to put that feeling aside On the contrary I have to say that I know I feel like Oh, are you just doing all the hits, Louis? Kind of grow up Fine I'm doing me And that's the way it is You've got Charles Portis We've gone off-piste We should talk a little bit We're off the We're way off-piste I mean, we're off the beaten track. The usual fucking junket bullshit. People don't normally ask about Charles Portis.

44:38No, that's what I was counting on that. That was the ace in the hole. They are counting on Barbie being mentioned. Okay. But here's the way in, which I like. Greta Gerwig, brilliant director, who co-wrote the film with her other half, Noah Baumbach, has said, we always talked about how Alan, your role was Alan, is a tragic Mike Lee character trapped in a Barbie movie. I liked that. Yeah, that's pretty good. So who, Alan, Alan is, first of all, who is Alan in the movie for people who haven't seen it? You're Ken's friend. Yeah, he's Ken's buddy. And there's loads of Ken's, there's multiracial Ken's, singing, dancing Ken's, there's only one Alan.

45:25Alan was a real toy, as I understand. Yeah. Didn't take off. Discontinued toy, I think. Didn't put up huge numbers. Didn't feel Ken needed a friend. Because Ken was already an auxiliary character. Yes. So you don't need to go further into his world. It'd be like, I don't know, it's like seeing Newman's friend on Seinfeld, to use a Seinfeld reference. Like Newman's already a friend of a friend. We don't need to go further into that world, even though it would have been fascinating. Yeah, it'd be like a Christopher Nolan film. like they'd just be I mean I'm just kind of referencing That'd be a good show actually where you just keep going Inception where there's just different layers You get further and further from the main character You get an Alan's friend and then Alan's friend's friend and You're like where is the main story and the main character well we're so far off But it was as I understand it you initially it was turned down on your behalf is that right?

46:19Like an agent Well no it wasn't turned down but my manager called me and you know he had said to them it's very unlikely that Michael will want to do it. And I don't know why, but he, I mean, I think what he did, actually, I think he probably, to give him some credit, Willie Mercer, my manager of almost 20 years, because he hates this story and he hates that this anecdote has become public. And he's like, why?

46:46But I think he was preparing them for a no. And I think it kind of helped me get the job probably. I don't think he meant it that way, but you know he set the table for me to like get the part to give him some credit but I don't think I had just had a son and I don't think Willie thought I would want to go overseas for like several months but it was like the most enticing thing to my wife and I to come work here in London for like five months with our baby yeah so the three of us we just had one son did you base yourself for something like that we were living in Primrose Hill we were there for like five months that must have been awful it's quite dangerous around there People run at you with baguettes.

47:24Yeah, the farmer's market's really... The baguettes. You've got to, like, not... They're so crispy. Be careful not to bump into people when you're going for your coffee. You could get mugged by Jude Law. Yeah, exactly. On a heavy night. You could. That actually could happen. Yeah, I guess it could. Or Brian Cox. If they were going method. Who he ran into constantly. Playing a foot pad in a Victorian adaptation. It's like Dream World. I mean, you know, Premier's Hill, a friend of mine was like, it looks like a child designed this neighborhood. It's like, yeah, but anyway, we loved it. I once went there and there was a protest, though.

47:53What were they protesting? The butchers were selling foie gras. Okay. Which is such a primrose smell. I haven't eaten it in years. It was getting violent. They were literally holding placards. But it's a valid thing to protest, unless there's sort of vegan-friendly foie gras. I don't know if there is. Like made of... Well, I'm being facetious, but obviously foie gras is horrendous if you make it in the traditional French way. They ram... I don't think there's another way to make it, is there? I think they can actually just kind of leave cream in the goose's coop and hope that the goose eats too much of it.

48:23It's not cost effective. Leave cream in the coop and hope the goose will eat it? Yeah. I think that is... I mean, you're looking at me like I'm crazy. I think that's real. It doesn't sound traditional. It's not traditional. I don't think the French approve. It's ridiculous. Any French people listening to this would go, leave cream in the coop. They'd be like, you've got to ram it down with a stick, otherwise it doesn't taste the same. It's not the same. we should talk about your new movie yeah have you seen it yes I enjoyed it I'm very proud to be a part of it must have been wild being on the set the star list on its own the great Richard Ayoade Richard Ayoade have you spoken to Rich he'd be a dream guest he's done Adam Buxton's podcast so many times I almost feel like he's damaged goods at this point he's said it all hasn't he he's sloppy seconds I'm like, dude, when you talked about Michael Cera, I don't need when you talk about the British comedy thing, like loving British comedy discovery.

49:24Right around that time when I was 18, I was obsessed with Rich and with Garth Marenghi's Dark Place. Right. And I knew Edgar Wright. And when I first came to London the very first time, which was in promotion of Superbad, Edgar introduced me to Matt Berry and Rich. Just because you'd already made Scotty Pilgrim. No, this was before. How did you know Edgar Wright before that then? Well, Edgar was sort of... The director of Scott Pilgrim and so many other great... Yes. Hot fuzz. National treasure. Yeah. And Edgar... National treasure is what he is. He didn't direct National treasure. No. That was directed by someone else.

49:59I wish I could say who. That'd be cool if I was just encyclopedic. Edgar introduced me to them. I knew Edgar because he... I think he was already starting to think about Scott Pilgrim. Maybe we met about it, but that would be a few years before. We made it. But I was like in hog heaven. I said Scotty Pilgrim. Does anyone call it that? Scotty Pilgrim. Am I remembering Scotty Pippen? It's very familiar. Scotty Pippen is a basketball player. Yeah, he was from the Bulls. Does anyone call it Scotty Pilgrim? Nobody calls it that. So why did I say that? Scotty Pippen. Because you've been thinking of Scotty Pippen.

50:31Remember? The Chicago Bull. Yeah. Or did he play for the Knicks? No, he was Bulls. There we go. Yeah. So you came to London. You met Richard Ayoade. Yeah. Having grown up on Garth Marenghi. It's odd, isn't it? because I think Garth Marenghi's Dark Place, I haven't watched. I know. I know that. When I came here, everybody I met, I was talking to about it because I thought it was a massive show here. But it's not. It's a very, you know, small following. How would that have been on in Canada? I saw it like on my computer. Someone sent it to me. A comedy nerd guy. Is Richard Ayoedda in Dark Place?

51:07Yeah. Okay. He's brilliant in it. And he wrote and directed it.

51:14Riz Ahmed Tom Hanks maybe you've heard of him Brian Cranston maybe you've heard of him Jeffrey Wright I mean Benedict Cumberbatch Yeah Michael Cera it's an all-star cast Scarlett Johansson and of course the male lead Hope Davis is Benicio Del Toro Yes and Mia just not to leave her Mia Thrippleton not to specifically leave her out and introducing Yes it was fantastic I imagine it was fun like maybe it isn't that fun because you're not obviously all going around in character like it's probably like a lot of waiting around is it what's it like or is it after dark you're quaffing drinks in the hotel lobby and like trading stories about and Bill Murray did we mention Bill Murray Bill Murray and Willem Dafoe and F.

52:01Murray Abraham Charlotte Gainsbourg it is a great hangout I mean it's an amazing You don't have to pretend that it was if it wasn't. Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like there's pressure when you're doing a joke. Like, that Charlotte Gainsbourg wouldn't stop kidding around. And she was always playing pranks. You know, like, we don't have to do that. No, she wasn't. She wasn't. I won't pretend she was playing pranks. You're right. Thank you for stopping me. I've killed you. I've killed you in your tracks. Thank you for stopping me from saying that. So you don't have to. It's a workplace.

52:35It's your office. Yeah, but it's a joyful thing to be a part of, for sure. But it is specific. I mean, he creates a really specific atmosphere and working method. It's not boring. It is. They're long days, and it's rigorous in a sense. And it's the opposite of that kind of free-flowing... You just start doing it, and we'll capture whatever you do. It's not that. It's not that, is it? No. that's a way of doing something else. You wouldn't achieve this kind of movie that way. No, this is a specific and quite dialed in movie. Does he give much direction to you as an actor? Yes. He absolutely does.

53:19Like what? Well, you'll try something and then he'll make adjustments to you and you really will hone and refine. It kind of depends on what's being required in the moment, but some things are very technical in a way that's really fun as an actor, and almost like a dance, really. Like, you know, there's a shot in the movie. You saw the movie. There's a shot. It's kind of, maybe you wouldn't even recall it, but like we sit down to eat pigeons together. It's quite early in the movie. That's right. And the camera tracks in, and like there's a lot of stuff happening. There's like three servants that set the food down.

53:55One lifts a cloche. I love that word. Wow. I love that word. That's a good, that's like. It's a French word, isn't it? Yeah. I think it's a bell in French, I believe. Yeah, and it looks like a bell. Millie's nodding. That's great. I got it right. The word for bell and clock is the same in French. But sonne le matin. That means bell. Matina just means a morning bell, I think. The morning chime. So they have different words for bells. We wouldn't say dang in English. Onomatopoeia in different languages. Someone should write a book about that. My wife is German. you know the things that they say that animals say yes like you know they're like the elephant says tattoo in what language?

54:38yeah you know or even like a dog you know like in German yeah the way they make like the chicken is so different like you know we say like cock-a-doodle-doo they say kick-a-doodle-doo crazy French is cock-a-doodle-doo could you imagine anyway must be confusing for the animals I'm confused he takes the cloche off the salva so all that's happening and you know we do like you know upwards of 30 takes because because that is like a dance it's like you know okay something went wrong in that take it's like actually you have to lift the cloche with your left hand because otherwise you know your left hand is going to bump here like it's very technical and in a very satisfying way but it's that's a different kind of very specific assignment than, you know, doing a scene where you're just kind of having dialogue and playing off each other.

55:30So, yeah, there's a lot of muscles and a lot is demanded of you, but it's very satisfying and you're all working together. And then when you get a take where everything comes together after making all those micro adjustments, it's very satisfying. You know, it's kind of athletic in a way. Absolutely. And it's a team endeavor and it must be, do you feel pressure? I just would be shitting my pants, pardon the expression, to be the weak link, you know, be like, I'm the one fucking this one. up and everything else has gone right but you didn't get it quite right but you have a lot of chances yeah but there is that you don't want to be the but um there's always that on a movie and you kind of uh you kind of have to become comfortable and familiar with that feeling as a performer and embrace it and kind of you know kind of maybe what you'd feel as an athlete or something you know like playing basketball you're like you know there's a lot of pressure to hit the shot but you're like this is what i'm here for this is what i've prepared for you know This is my job.

56:24Like Scotty Pippin. And you make it sometimes, sometimes you don't. You get, you know, a lot of chances. Like Scotty Pippin, for instance. Or Dennis Rodman. Thank you. We're developing a lot of themes. I think it makes for a very rich listening experience. How are we doing? We're not going to do the CeraVe advert. Can you just throw me one line from various projects? I could do that. I kind of like that as a format. I loved This Is The End. Do I have that right? That's right. Did I say it right? Yeah. There are a lot of movies with those words in them. Because actually around the same time - The World's End.

56:59World's End came out. Yeah. Which was Edgar Wright's movie, also about the end of the world. Yeah. You played a version of yourself. Yeah. I think it was one of the funniest movies. This is the End was one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. And I'm almost afraid to watch it again in case it's not as funny as I remember it. In case it's not what you think it is. Yeah. I get that. Did you think it was funny? I never watched it, unfortunately, with an audience. I think that would have been funny. I don't think I ever got a chance to do that. Sounds like you didn't think it was that funny. I think it's funny.

57:29I think it's very funny. I think it's really funny. You played a version of yourself. We laughed a lot. I was only there for like two days. I hope the listeners explained who you were in it. Yeah, I play a sort of, well, yeah, a version of myself that's like a maniac. It's really fun. I mean, you know, they... You snort cocaine and slap Rihanna on the behind. Mm-hmm.

58:02That's true. That's all we've got on that. I thought that was going to lead to a stronger exchange.

58:12Well, can you cut to a clip?

58:17I was very excited that they wrote that that way for me you know when I was like a small kid like we talked about being in those acting classes we would eventually put on a show for the parents at the end of the semester you know and we'd audition for roles and I wanted always to be the bad guy and I got I got the villain in one of them bad Bart it's like a made-up play that we you know that the teachers like wrote but i was so happy that i got that part because everyone all the kids like auditioned for all the parts and that was the one i really wanted that's a really fun thing to get to do to be like gross and evil and like you know it's it's i find it very satisfying um how long we got millie 10 minutes have you done any acting louie the answer is yes i will do it yeah i will do it um well you sort of must feel like you're sort of playing what is the role yourself when you're interviewing say a prisoner and asking him about being on the top bunk and that being a less desirable yeah to be in and the guy's like no i like it up here and you're like but everybody says that's where the bitches sit you've seen it and he asked me if i'm a real n-word yeah that's an awkward question yeah for a white person like myself so i i you said step up and find out or what did you say i what i actually thought was i had a like half second of panic you're amazing in that your composure is under unbelievable my performance in the role of it is a performance i mean quite seriously that that takes a lot i mean you're like you're going through a lot of processes in your brain you must have thought i cannot i mean i was really thinking when i was watching that how are they so sure you and the camera crew How are you so sure some opportunistic person wouldn't go, I'm going to...

1:00:08Have a pop. Yeah, it was possible. Yeah. When you're the big dog, that's a risk you always run. Yeah. Or were you worried about it? Not especially. In some part of your brain? Or did you just turn that part of your brain off and just go, no? Or you felt pretty assured that the situation felt under control? When you were with the guards going into a jail cell... The guards were there. For people at home, I did a program called Miami Mega Jail, and I went into the cell. The odd part is that the guards were nervous and they're like, I don't want to go in there just by myself. They wanted two guards.

1:00:37Yeah. Because guards get attacked. Of course. And in fact, the guards are at more risk than a BBC journalist, I would argue. I felt like the guys liked you. I felt like they recognized that you were, you know. The expression is real, recognize real. That's what it is. It really feels like that. I was joking, by the way. Real doesn't, well, real does recognize real. They respect you. You feel that they respect the way you're putting questions very directly? I think. What happened was, so he asked me, are you a real N-word? I had a moment of panic and then said, well, how do you answer that? And I said, what do you think?

1:01:12And he said, I think you might be because you came in here. So I was off the hook. It's a great program. Cumberbatch, that's what I call him, said that you working with Wes Anderson, and it was like God discovering water. Quite flattering. But God doesn't discover water. He just creates water. Last I checked, he made it up. Yeah. The water thing. God. God just made it. He just invented everything. But I think what he meant was... Yeah, I think he was being very kind. There's an element here that's essential to his creative vision that should have been there all along. I think really that... uh i've been being asked this question in this during this junket and i about the cumberbatch quote yeah and that like you know that i haven't worked with west before and um that it's you know feels natural or whatever and i think on it the honest answer is like i grew up watching his movies and um and and you know worshiping him and all of my friends you know all of my peers we were all like he's he was like you know the guy yeah west so i mean he's had a huge like influence on my general sense of taste and humor and like you know aspirations as a performer so i think if i fit in his thing is because i've grown up on him do you present company excluded or rather present product movie excluded what do you have a favorite wes anderson film well when i was like a teenager i watched rushmore at the same time i was watching the office i used to kind of watch things on my laptop watch dvds till the thing gets real hot and you hear the fan humming you know and i mean when i was in high school i think i stayed up till like two or three in the morning every night watching the office and watching rushmore and clockwork orange and like mr show and a few things that were just really sure they were really becoming really indelible like essential things to me and and that was one of them for sure rushmore at that time was huge for me.

1:03:18Was that his first movie? Was that Wes Anderson's first movie? It was his second movie. What was his first one? His first one was Bottle Rocket. Wow. That's wild. That's his first film. It's very strong out of the gate. Because it's slightly different. You've got Owen Wilson. Who's the other male lead in it? Luke Wilson. Are they brothers? Yes. And Owen Wilson wrote it with Wes. Right. They wrote the first handful of movies together. And Owen Wilson again, he was sort of I guess, I don't know if it was his debut but that energy he brought That was his first movie. they were in film school together and you know Owen Wilson was not a movie star they're like playing like they're doing a heist or they're going to crack a safe and it's this bizarre he's come out of prison there's this caper they plan to rob a bank or something it's all in that world it's very childish maybe that's my favorite one that'd be kind of crazy to for your favorite one to be his first one but maybe it's like bands it is great the first album is like somehow your favorite it's a wonderful movie there's a lot of Wes's you know whole language already so strong in there.

1:04:18And I think the strength of Bottle Rocket is how he gets kind of Bill Murray after that, you know, to do Rushmore. I think it was just so evident that this is like a really strong-handed, you know, filmmaker. And Bill Murray's been a kind of muse. Yeah. I mean, I said muse because actually, what's that about? There's a symbiosis there. I think Wes has that with many people though. He definitely had it seemingly with Owen Wilson. They created some amazing alchemy together. And also Jason Schwartzman, who was a teenager when they made Rushmore. But I think he's a huge part of the voice of Wes in general.

1:05:01I feel like Jason is in there always, even now. I think so. I know Jason. And when I met him, I was like, oh, it's amazing how much just being around Jason feels like that sensibility that we associate with Wes. Like a lot of it is just Jason's spirit. And I think that's kind of gone into all of Wes's work. Look, I don't want to take the piss and I don't want to presume on your time too much. No, I'm enjoying talking. So we're going to say something now that's going to round the interview off beautifully. I look forward to this. What is it going to be? You know what? My life is open-ended. So how can you sum up my life?

1:05:40How are you finding, you've got a young family. How are you finding work-life balance? Like it can be difficult. Actually, that was something I was hoping we would talk about. But here we go. Should have touched on it. We are. Half hour ago. Yeah. Work-life balance is like a thing that you have to figure out. That's something I'd really like to hear your thoughts on. But that becomes a little project, I think, figuring that balance out. Did you find that? I think it can be healthy. Yeah. And I think it can be a boundary that is non-negotiable in a weird way. And it's like, if you're a people pleaser, or if you're in any way unboundaried in the sense of, oh, okay, I'll do that, I'll do that.

1:06:17And you suddenly find yourself overwhelmed. Yeah. That having the ballast of family can help you police your own perimeters. It just puts the barricades up for you. It's like, can't do it. Right. I don't think that particular problem is something I can relate to. I think I'm pretty good at saying no, actually. Yeah. Do you have that, where you're like, you want to over-deliver? Mm-hmm. Over-commit. And then you're like, now I'm spread thin. Now I can't give to my family. Come in on the weekend. We work late. Like, I feel like that was most of my 20s. Okay. And then you started having kids. And then you have kids.

1:06:48You need to be there for them. You have to, yeah. Actually, no, I can't do that. Like, I actually, there's someone here who's depending on me. Yes. Yeah, it makes things very simple. So in a way, I found it simplifying. But it sounds like that wasn't it for you. What is it for you then? You just need to make sure your work doesn't take you away too much. Yeah, I just want to be there with them. and um but i also want to work when i i mean i love working and it's important to me and when i don't when i sit at home for a long time i i become really unbearable because i'm really there's something not feeding me you know it's just it's like a balance you know it's just about a nourishment balance it's hard to hard to achieve like a perfect harmonizing balance there but it'll be interesting to figure out how to do it as especially as my kids grow up you know and they yeah there's more stuff going on are you looking forward to um directing more i hope so i hope to it's not like it's not a given that you can direct something it takes a big push it's like i'm hoping i'll do it but i don't take for granted that i will it's not we're there it's not done yet it's not a done deal i'm really hoping to make this movie uh my first feature this fall and I'm terrified that I won't because I feel like you get kind of a window with things when everybody's schedules line up and then you just got to get everything together and if it goes past it things kind of die on the vine or at least that's my paranoia about it is my fear is that we'll overshoot and we'll miss it and then so I'm like I'm I'm very charged about making it this fall and not missing the chance.

1:08:30But I'm kind of learning on the job a lot about like financing a movie and putting it together, all the things that need to come together financially. You know, it's like this would be an independent film. I'm not, you know, setting it up with a studio. So we have to like raise money. This is what I've been doing for the last year is like figuring out how to raise funds. Do you have anyone in you? Sometimes it's like if you had a, say, a Seth Rogen or an Edgar Wright or you know what I mean? who was like, I'm going to exec this. Do you have someone like that in your corner? Not on this project.

1:09:02I have producers, a company called 2AM, and they know how to do it. But I haven't had an executive producer kind of throw their weight around person on this. Sort of opening doors. Yeah. But I have, on other projects, tried to set it up that way and it doesn't always work either. A lot of things need to align. you gotta fight this one on your own you just gotta do and you know I do think also like I haven't made a feature film and I'm a bit of a liability I think in that way to the investor like not in a self-diminishing way just like you know there's no nothing for them to point to that would prove this to be a worthy investment I mean it's a lot of money and like it's an investment and it's a gamble other than the script which I've written you know they can read it but a lot of people don't read the scripts I find And I think movies are put together, now I'm rambling, but I think, especially a movie on this scale, it seems to be all about the package you put together with the cast because that's ultimately what will kind of translate to sales.

1:10:05And I find that a lot of financiers and people, they don't even read the script because it doesn't really matter what it is or what movie you're trying to make. I think those days when it was kind of like you could write a script and if it had merit and if sort of Harvey Weinstein saw your talent in it, he'd get behind you. that particular avenue is not really available anyway are we going to say probably not having Harvey Weinstein behind you is an asset in this era it's a perfect closing statement I think it sums everything up beautifully thank you so much man thank you I really appreciate it good luck with your projects I hope you enjoy the rest of your stay are you around for a little bit I'm leaving tomorrow that's crazy in and out really quick but I'm excited to go home to my little guys yeah

1:11:07welcome back that's my new thing is clapping like a clapper board I hope you enjoyed that Millie said it was quite you heavy what does that mean no I think I talked about myself a lot maybe too much and in my notes I wrote tongue-in-cheek narcissism versus real narcissism. I think the question is when do they become the same thing? That's a line I'll be continuing to explore in future conversations. As long as I'm talking about myself, that's the important thing. Bingo card. Have you watched my documentaries? Quite a bit, Millie's written. Did I say that a lot? and a last minute Harvey Weinstein reference to make sure listeners stay all the way to the end.

1:11:54Was there? Yeah, there was, wasn't there? And then did I make a joke? And then was it a double entendre to have Harvey Weinstein at your back? I could make up my mind whether or not there was an implied sexual position. You said behind you. Behind you. Is that an innuendo? Probably, yeah. Might be. I think the phrase basic bitch could go on the bingo card. Plugging my book can go on it. Maybe me using the word legendary. There's going to be too many things on the bingo card if we're not careful. Ethical foie gras. I feel like I'm going down a list now. Ethical foie gras is a thing. Whether the French think it's dégueulasse, I don't know.

1:12:39Apparently they don't leave the cream in the pen. what they do is put grain out and then they use the fat cycles. Geese get fat in the winter naturally. So you leave a bit of grain out, they get fat in the winter and then you kill them and you make your foie gras. Or maybe it's called foie royale. Replicating the desired texture and flavour without force feeding or gavage to use the French term. do a photo search on google of gavage and see what pops up and enjoy your day i think the other thing worth mentioning and picking up on is how much like mclovin was i and i think the answer is maybe quite a lot and i feel good about that because in hindsight But sometimes, especially the adolescent years, you can cast them as years of loneliness, confusion, not fitting in.

1:13:44That's sort of been my narrative. And I prefer to think that I was that overly confident, overly entitled. OK, maybe geek or odd looking chap, right? Man, child. I didn't have braces, but I had glasses and I was awkward. and you know it was odd if you I was a year younger than everyone else in my year at school because I'd been pushed forward a year and I was already a late developer so I had um my voice hadn't broken I was small you know other people in my year were a year year or year and a half older with many of them with stubble some of them starting to go bald and there was me hi talking to the girls girls mature earlier in general so there they are older womanly and i'm there um like a little pipsqueak a piccolo voiced androgyne is is the phrase and nevertheless if i brimmed with confidence and you know was au fait with talking to girls and occasionally getting a piece if I can use that term then yeah maybe that's accurate and maybe that's good and maybe I'm still playing that role somewhat the McLovin is still in me

1:15:12and I should remind my wife of that more often you get me? so this is the last of this run hence it being the end of series episode but we will be back with more episodes coming soon we are taping them in secret in our bunker as we speak I just recorded one I'm not going to tell you who it was with but stay tuned because they will be dropping shortly on the streaming service you know as Spotify and also wherever you get your podcasts okay I think that might be it apart from the all-important credits the producer was Millie Chu The assistant producer was Mahn Al-Yaziri. Welcome back, Mahn. He'd been away for a bit.

1:15:58The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The audio mix was by Tom Guest. The video mix was by Scott Edwards. The music in the series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.