S6 EP3: Bob Vylan on his controversial Glastonbury performance

32:18Because it should be noted that I was very, very happy with where the band was. Very happy. When people came up, they were fans of the band. The shows sold great and people bought the music. I was extremely happy with how everything was. And then we were made famous by the media, tabloids and the news, you know. And so now, all of a sudden, you have people that do not know anything about the band. And they will take the tiniest little thing, you know, lyric, or it and it's just and it becomes like a talking point and like a a way of getting their political agenda across you know it's just it's kind of like and obviously that's not something that we have control of um but that's that's where we are as a band so when when you say those whatever certain lines it's like it's not no of course not trying to keep it secret otherwise i'd just remove the song from streaming platforms whatever but it's more so those type of people that are not looking to enjoy the music they're not looking to learn about the band they're looking to just pile on you know um i don't feel any need in helping them do that you know

34:05This episode is brought to you by British Airways. You know, travel's always been an important part of my life, both personally and professionally. Growing up, me and my family, we'd travel to America every year. My dad's American and spend time on Cape Cod. We'd fly into Boston. And there was something about getting in touch with my American side. Although I sort of come across quite British, I'm more American than you might think. and seeing my family, being immersed in their love and also their oddity. Because, you know, they would talk like this and they had different breakfast cereal and they'd say, here's some Hershey's Kisses.

34:44And they didn't really sound like that. But that's the best I can do right now. Later on, I lived in New York when I was starting my work as a journalist, working on television and living in Brooklyn, flying back and forth to London. and then more recently I've been a bit more of a homebody but still once a year we get away to Greece, we go to Crete as a family which always feels like a break from the norm and a way for us as a family to kind of get in touch with each other to spend time together without the stresses and strains of the school routine or the workday routine. So travel has always been important throughout my life and how you get there obviously makes a big difference.

35:26Every one of us is an original and thoughtful touches from British Airways make every journey an unforgettable one. Everywhere we go makes us everything we are. So what will you be? To plan your next trip, visit BritishAirways.com. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen.

36:08This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business. Because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis, L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash louis, L-O-U-I-S.

36:55Shall we talk about how you came up a little bit? I know you... Did you grow up in Ipswich? Is that right? Yeah. But I also spent plenty of time in London. You haven't done a huge number of interviews. Also, you used Bob Villain. That's obviously the name of the band, but you go by Bobby Villain as a, what would be the term, nom de plume. But there is a sort of certain air of mystique or mystery or even secrecy around aspects of you. Do you choose not to make too much of your private life public? Of course. Why? For multiple reasons. The band has always been political, right? Like before Glastonbury, whatever, whatever, Like the band has always been what the band is.

37:48And again, kind of like what I mentioned earlier is that we understand that there are people that do not feel the same way and they feel strongly the opposite way. So, of course, you want to make sure that, you know, your your privacy is is protected. And there is also this entitlement that people may have of like. Who do you go out with? Who's your boyfriend? Who's your girlfriend? Where do you live? How much money do you make? Do you have kids? Do you have this? Do you know what I mean? It's like I have no interest in giving them any more information than I have to or I desire about my private life, you know?

38:32Yeah, so I grew up in Ipswich. Did you feel like you were struggling? Because there's references to struggling in the lyrics. Yeah. Was it just you and mum? I've got other family members. yeah I've got siblings oh my god other family members yeah I've got siblings and I do have a dad as well shout out to the dad shout out to dad because the internet loves to kind of you know where was his dad I bet his dad's not in the picture like me and my dad do you know what I mean yeah yeah so yeah but yeah I mean yeah for sure we lived in like you know I don't want to go like oh we lived in the council housing like we lived in council housing and we We didn't have tons of money, but we kind of had what we needed.

39:19We had a roof over our head and we had clothes on our back and we had food. But obviously, there are reminders. Oftentimes, coming from my mum network, we don't have money. Do you know what I mean? You did a master's? Yeah, I did. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. No, but in all seriousness, it would have been easy to just be like, kind of paint a certain picture. but yes I did I did undergrad in music production and technology and then I did my masters in music and I have plans to do my PhD as well do you? yes you're going to get people he's middle class he's this and he's that he's educated himself into the middle class God forbid it is what it is but it is interesting because obviously like I see those things like on the internet of like because I got a double-barreled last name, because I went to university, there is like an assumption that like I'm privately educated, which I don't know where that came from.

40:28Does that bother you? No, I don't think, no, it doesn't bother me. Absolutely not. Is it true? Not the private part, but the idea that you lead a sort of, what would it be? a kind of middle-class bourgeois lifestyle? Absolutely not, bro. I definitely don't. What would that even mean to you? I suppose it would mean that, like, I have a relative... Shop at Waitrose. You probably shop at Whole Foods, though, don't you? Nah, bro. I'm an Audi guy. Are you? 100%. Audi, Lidl. That's what I'm shopping, man. Waitrose. You're mad, bro. No. I wouldn't. Do you know how expensive it is in there? It's crazy expensive in Waitrose.

41:08I haven't been recently. I've been there maybe once or twice and I'm just like, this is, yeah, this ain't it. But it doesn't bother me. Do you like the own brand stuff at Aldi? Like sometimes you're like, oh, that's just as good as, you know, whatever, like Heinz beans or whatever, you know, ketchup. But then I tried to get some of the cereal. You know, they've got this. I think you might need to pull them back. You know, they've got a cereal thing called Harvest Morn is their cereal brand. Yeah. And then you get like. Craves or whatever, six pounds. But Harvest Morn Choccy Pillows, whatever they are, they're like two pounds fifty.

41:45I don't eat that. That's a three pound saving. That's significant. I don't eat them. I have Wheat Abix. I'm not talking specifically that, but I'm making a general point. I thought I wouldn't know about them. I feel like he's filibustering me. They've got these clone brands. It's a slight obsession, sorry. I was going to make a point of how people's assumption of me being whatever middle class because i'm because of educating myself or whatever um is steeped in racism but we should probably talk about harvest morn and um and and cereal from audi and the deals that we can get sardonic dunk noted um the

42:30you know you reached out to me on insta didn't you say like you know if you want to do a chat let's hook it up and we did was there something that you wanted to i mean i think we've covered a lot but yeah what was it that you were thinking about would you feel like you haven't had a chance because piers morgan must have reached out and said i'd love to get you on the on the show right anybody you can think of everybody everybody and anybody you can think of fox news gb news all of that piers morgan and why did you not go on any of those well you know why everybody else But I suppose like, you know, those kind of shows are not looking to explore the nuances around anything that has taken place.

43:11They're not looking to have any kind of meaningful conversation before you know it. You know, they're kind of, do you condemn this? And oh, but you've said this and da, da, da, da. And you're not really given any kind of chance to speak. But, you know, so I figured I'd come here and listen to you talk about Serial. Oh my God, that's really become a thing. But what was it that you were thinking about or was there anything specific? What was the thing that, I'm advising you, I'm giving you a free hit. Yeah, no, I know, I do think we've spoken about a lot of it. I think it is important to kind of reiterate that the focus should have never been on the band and Bob Villain and it should have always been on the conditions that allow for that chant to exist.

44:04But you've got to own part of that, because the world is the way it is, right? The world is the way it is, but yes, of course, the world is the way it is, but the people with the power to change it are not changing it. That's really kind of what I wanted to get across. And also, I suppose, use it as a somewhat cathartic process of just speaking about it and adding my voice to the fight, I suppose. because, of course, we've been attacked like nobody else has, I think. Maybe I'm being naive or maybe I'm kind of focusing too much on self there, but I think we've been attacked to a degree that I haven't really seen anybody else attacked for speaking up about this issue.

44:48With a kneecap?

44:56That's an interesting one. it's an interesting one because as with everything race comes to play a part in that we're an easier villain no pun intended than they are because we are already the enemy so you don't really need to give much context as to why the british public should hate us um yeah that's that's that's tricky but i mean yeah you think they've had an easier right i'm I'm not saying it like that. I don't wanna say it like that because I'm not trying to compare the struggles of whatever, outspoken bans, whatnot. But I think it's important to look at that. I think it's important to look at the way that race plays a part in even the way this country presents its enemies.

45:52Ultimately, the fight is against white supremacy, right? That is what the fight is against. And I think white supremacy is displayed so vividly in Zionist. They'd say we're not white, we're Jewish, right? Yeah, yeah. People have written about this. You know, people have written about about viewing the Zionist movement and the war crimes being committed by Israel through the lens of white supremacy. I think his name is Yoav Litvin. He has written about it. He's a doctor of psychology. He's also a photographer, but he's a writer as well. He's written about it. And I think you can see it quite clearly when you start to look at the relationship between Israel and the United States, for example, where American police, American law enforcement have direct relationships with the IDF and are sent there to train.

47:02in Georgia they have something called the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange Program and it has been sending people to Israel to train for the last 31 years and those tactics are then exported directly to the U.S. soil and they are then used as we know disproportionately in black and brown communities in 2015 the Atlanta chief of police has said that the surveillance tactics used in downtown Atlanta were directly inspired by those that he saw in Jerusalem so I think it's important to not just view what Israel is doing as like they want to call it a war or a conflict It's a genocide, but it's not an isolated thing.

47:52It needs to be looked at and viewed through the wider lens of white supremacy and the impact that it has on people of colour throughout the world. I think I'd add to that there's an even more macro lens which you can put on it, which is that Jewish identity in the Jewish community as expressed in Israel has become almost like an acceptable, quote unquote, way of understanding ethno -nationalism. And so it's like they're prototyping an aggressive militarized form of ethno-nationalism, which is then rolled out, whether it's by people like Viktor Orban in Hungary or Trump in the US. It's become sort of a certain sense of post-Holocaust Jewish exceptionalism or Zionist exceptionalism has become a role model on the national stage for what these white identitarians would like to do in their own countries.

48:44Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's the part. So I think there's a lot of cynicism about, because I think actually a lot of the people who are claiming to act as like friends of the Jewish community, that's the thin end of a wedge that will end up excluding Jewish people and excluding anyone who doesn't match the description of kind of traditional British racial type. Well, I suppose because, you know, we'll see that possibly play out in the United States. I don't want to say immediately, but, you know, in the possible not so distant future. Yes, big time. That is, that's the point I was making, you know, is that like there is, it needs to be viewed for a wider lens, a much wider lens.

49:34But I didn't, I noticed on Spotify that you got a date advertised in the US coming up. That's like probably from the tour that we aren't able to do. So that's not happening. No, no, no. Our visas have been taken away, so we can't go over there. But there is an assumption that we are kind of sat at home in tears about that. Yes. I should make it clear that we do not enjoy being in that country. We never have. In the US. Oh, yeah. We never have. And I think... But there's a lot to enjoy in America. Is there, tell me. You're putting me on the spot. Are there any Aldis over there? I think there might be, you know.

50:22There might be, or a little. It's so much culture. If you're a fan of music, just for starters, the birthplace of not just hip-hop, but rock and roll and R &B. It's obviously got vast divisions of wealth, economic disparity, all kinds of horrific things happen there. At the same time, there's all kinds of amazing culture and positive aspects to it. But you're talking more sort of a bit, it sounds like tourist-ish attractions, which are, I mean, like fine for a holiday, but working there is very strenuous. You know, you drive 10 hours and you're kind of still in the same state at some points. That's true.

51:09It's very hard to tour in terms of like the toll that it takes on your mental, the toll that it takes on your body. It's extremely expensive to tour there as well. You don't really make a lot of money, especially a band of our size. And I think the politics of that country have just really made it an extremely ugly place to be. I mean, seeing the difference even in such a short period of time of when we were over there in October last year, 2024, to being over there again this year in April and May, it just seems to have gotten even more volatile. When we got the visa taken away, I called Lil Bob and I was like, yo, they've just sent me an email.

51:55My visa has been taken away. Have you got an email yet? He's like, nah. I said, OK, well, expect one. Then there was a slight moment of silence. and then a unified sigh of relief. And he just said, well, at least we ain't got to go there anymore. And we both laughed. And it was like it felt like a weight because we loved the artists that we were going to do the support tour with, right? So we were not the headline. We were the support and act. We love him. He's wicked, amazing band. Grandson is his name. But, you know, like it really is just like you're counting down the days until you have to go and then you get there and you're kind of counting down the days until you can get home other bands may enjoy it they may really enjoy um being out there they may want to like kind of crack or break america we never really had that desire we kind of did it because it was something that the management pushed for um nah man i'm yeah we're right you know We're right.

53:01I really don't enjoy it being there. Your tattoos on your fist? Yeah. On your fingers? What does it say? Lavvy Hill. Lavvy Hill? Yeah, Lavvy Hill. Lavender Hill? Yes, Lavender Hill. Is it SW18? No, the one in Ipswich, not in South West London. Okay. Yeah. But I've also got it across my chest. Lavender Hill? A mural of it, yeah. And I've got an LH here as well that stands for Lavender Hill. Because you really liked Lavender Hill. It was an important place to me growing up. Yeah, it was like kind of the base for a lot of things at that time when we were younger, you know. What kind of things? Well, I suppose like, you know, you'd have great times there.

53:45You'd have bad times there. But like, you know, people would just hang out there. It was kind of what people call a frontline, I suppose, to the area or the estate or whatever, you know. There's lyrics that seem to suggest you might have dealt back in the day. there's lyrics to suggest that that's what i just said yeah you just said the same thing i did there's lyrics to suggest that yeah um but you know those cases statute of limitations yeah no but i've got a daughter do you know what i mean like and and yeah i've got a daughter so i've you know i'm mindful um but yeah like if if it were to have taken if those things were to take place that's where they would take place.

54:26I mean, I saw... I had some of the happiest times in my life there, but I also had some terrible times there. I saw a friend of mine get stabbed up the road from there. You know, it's just... But it means a lot to me. Where do you feel at home? Now we're going to get really deep, because I don't feel at home anywhere, if I'm being completely honest. Why not?

54:54I'm not too sure. I think it's because I'm always on the move and I've not been able to be comfortable anywhere for a long period of time. There's also a strange relationship that I have, I suppose, with this country as a whole in that I feel like I'm in it but not of it because it's been made so explicitly clear throughout my lifetime. and it continues to be made clear I think by some of the rhetoric that's being delivered by some of the politicians on the right on the supposed left it doesn't seem as though there's anybody representing me personally and I know that there are a lot of people within the within within the community that I come from that feel that same way I think seeing large numbers of pissed up people on a march to unite the kingdom, but seemingly leaving so many people out of that unity, it's hard to feel at home in a place like that.

56:10It's really hard to feel at home in a place like that. I'm sure your notes will tell you that the first time I was called a nigger, I was seven or eight years old. It was by the kid across the road. The last time I was called a nigger was this January by my neighbour at the time. It's hard to feel at home in a place like that. Certain people will never have to understand that. They'll never have to go through that. But that is something that from seven to now I've gone through and continue to go through. so that's probably why I don't really feel at home anywhere you know but I'm searching the room was quiet but it's gotten quieter went very quiet yeah no it's good because it's a serious issue hmm you know but I'm searching I am searching for that home I would call myself a pan-Africanist and so I do believe that maybe I might find my home somewhere else outside of the UK um many bright wing voters will be happy to hear that but um not not immediately at least you know I've still got work to do

57:37it's not an easy segue um it's going to come back to Aldi but maybe not what do you think about that when you what you just said yeah what do you think about that it's very i feel it's disappointing i don't mean that it's disappointing of you but it's disappointing that i suppose that um someone who comes across to me is british and also for me it's always like lives in london sees london as the lens for how i experience i guess the uk or england or I feel as though I'd like to believe that we are very diverse and that we have everyone. And by most I'm not saying like there's whites and then there's the diverse people.

58:23I mean, we're all part of whatever's going on. And what I hear you saying is that you don't feel part of it. It's not that I don't feel part of it because, of course, there are instances, there are moments when I feel part of it. And I suppose I feel most part of it when I'm abroad, especially in America right because and then I become I'm British you know I'm English well that's that's interesting right but when I'm here I think such a job is done to make me not feel that way when all of this happened I mean UKIP party which is like like who cares like they're barely in existence right but it was you know they used an AI image of me and said uh if we're elected we're going to deport Bob Villain.

59:07For real? How are you going to deport me? I'm born here. When was that? A few years ago when you kept... Farage is out there. No, no, no. Recently. Recently. It was on their Facebook page. Really? Yes, really. So it's weird. It's a weird existence, man. Because there are certain things that, like, I am just... I mean, I have a hard time being in other places because I am British. I'm English. but then when you're here you're reminded that you are other and i've been getting reminded of it every single day since glastonbury why is it that any of those uh right wing pundits or i don't know what would you call the the lot on stage at at this unite the kingdom March, whatever you would call them.

1:00:05Why is it that it's completely fine for them to critique this country and say, oh, it's going to hell, it's going to hell, they're letting the boats in, but when I say something critical of this country, who are you to say this about our great nation? why I was born on the same land that these people were born in but I say that thing I criticise this country and I'm told I have no right to the only thing that differs is one maybe our opinion and of course my skin colour um how are we going to glide into something did ice tea reach out uh not to my knowledge no you know about the reference he'd made a song called cop killer yeah he did though in the early 90s was a big deal because the police didn't like it surprisingly it's funny isn't it that like certain things at a time seem so extreme, or at least the response to them is so extreme.

1:01:23So Ice-T is cop killer, NWA is fucked police. But now you hear them and you're like, and I think that goes back to kind of what Chuck D was saying about like, you know, as you said, Bob Villan, but any artist that could be applied to, they don't have no tanks, they ain't got no bombs. So you realise that actually these individuals, these artists, They're not doing any real damage for the most part. True, although words can hurt and words, you know, inflammatory rhetoric, you know, especially if it's online, which obviously wasn't in your case, but can absolutely contribute to a climate that's extremely volatile and unsafe.

1:02:05Yeah, absolutely. But mine is through art. And I think, you know, as like many artists before, they have just documented the times that we're living in, you know. And Paul Robeson says, you have to pick a side. You either fight for freedom or you fight for slavery. And he goes on to say, I've picked my side. I've made my mind up. There was no other option. And I feel the same way. I've picked my side. I have to fight for freedom through my music, through my actions, through my activism, through my politics. That is what my fight is for. And, you know, if it means documenting the struggles that I or other people are going through, and that is met with sharp criticisms, well then so be it.

1:03:01Because I know that my intention is not to create division. My intention is not to put anybody at risk, any individual or any community. My intention is to bring about some sort of positive change. That's my intention. Because our politicians seem so hell-bent on the opposite.

1:03:32I'm doing that with art, man. like bro it's an uphill struggle it's an uphill struggle otherwise i wouldn't have to talk about the same things that ice tea or public enemy or rage against the machine or nina simone or curtis mayfield sang about it's good stuff you know like i wouldn't have to do that but unfortunately here we are and i've got to do it so i'm doing it

1:04:19welcome back did you find that interesting i hope so so a few footnotes to the chat that's what I'm calling it now, footnotes. Like, you know, like it's a book, like you're reading the podcast. We talked about the reported uptick in anti-Semitic incidents after the Glastonbury set. And Bobby questioned what data was being used to define what was an anti-Semitic incident. It was based on an article in The Guardian that was using information provided by the Community Security Trust. They use the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which is also the one adopted by the UK government and other governments.

1:05:01Nevertheless, it's also come under some criticism. We will link to an article in the show notes from The New Yorker, all about some of the controversy around the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, And also we'll link to the definition itself. It's also worth reflecting that the Community Security Trust report refers to 26 incidents of anti-Semitism on the relevant day, 16 of which involved anti-Jewish responses to Jewish organizations condemning the chant. I'd also recommend, I mean, we also have a chat, you heard the bit where we're discussing whether the right wing of the Israeli political establishment is prototyping a kind of ethno-nationalism.

1:05:48There's a great book on this by Anthony Lowenstein I think it's called The Palestine Laboratory in which he talks about how techniques developed and deployed in the West Bank and in Palestine are then exported and used as instruments of social control around the world If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode Spotify do have a website for information and resources Visit spotify.com slash resources. And I think that's us done for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Man Al-Yaziri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett.

1:06:31The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

1:06:46This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business. Because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website, to marketing, to product descriptions, to sales.

1:07:28The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S.