S6 EP3: Bob Vylan on his controversial Glastonbury performance

0:05Hello there, welcome to another episode of the Louis Theroux Podcast.

0:18For this episode, I sat down with Bobby Villain. Not his real name, but we'll come to that. He's one half of English punk rap duo Bob Villain. The other half is also called Bobby Villain. Yes, it's confusing. The other Bobby is spelt with an I-E. Anyway, it's not his name either. and neither of them are related to Bob Dylan. Why would they be? It's a different word. Bob Dylan are a London-based punk rap duo. They use a mixture of punk, hip-hop, grime and hardcore. I would say especially punk. And to the Bob Dylan point, I think it's not coincidental. It's sort of referencing Sid Vicious, Johnny Rotten.

0:58It's a punk... What's the word? Nom de Guerre? Stage name. Their music centres around social and political issues, criticising inequality, racism, sexism and homophobia. Many of you will be familiar with the band, though, because of their controversial set at this year's Glastonbury Festival, where Bobby led the crowd in a chant, decrying, denouncing, deploring, calling for an end to, all of this is relevant to the chat, to the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force. Some deemed it to be anti-Semitic. Either way, it prompted a media storm, and we go into this in some detail. In the wake of all this, the band have been subject to a criminal investigation.

1:41They've had gigs cancelled, visas revoked, and been the subject of a debate for pundits and politicians across the world, all of which we speak about in the interview. Bobby has not spoken publicly about this before, which makes it all the more charged, I suppose. There's a chat, there's a lot of speculation about, I suppose, what he meant and what construction we, the listeners, should be putting on it. He reached out to me, DMing me on Instagram, and said he wanted to speak. So all of that was part of why I decided to have Bobby on. We recorded this conversation on the 1st of October this year in a central London studio.

2:24I should add that this was before the Manchester Synagogue attacks on the 2nd of October, in which two people were killed and three others injured. More recently, there's been pressure on a venue in Manchester from MPs and some Jewish leaders to cancel Bob Villan's upcoming show in Manchester in November. A warning, this episode contains the strongest of language, including racial language and other adult themes. All of that coming up after this.

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4:15Do you need anything? Would you like a tea or a coffee? No, I'm all right. I've got a coffee coming. I've read that you're... I think it was in an interview you talked about how coffee made you nervy or jumpy. Yeah, I can't have coffee because... I mean, I can have it if I wanted to, obviously, but it's more so that I would have trouble getting to sleep or whatever. You're quite health-conscious. Extremely so, yeah. Your veganism became a matter of the public record on the day after the Glastonbury event. Everyone was like, well, he's a militant on stage and now he's eating vegan ice cream. Some people were confused by that.

4:54Yeah, I suppose it maybe seems a bit weird that somebody would be on stage saying that and then be vegan maybe. I don't know, I don't know. It's like my veganism is also kind of part of my politics. Is it? Yeah. In what way? In the sense that, like, you know, having compassion for living things, you know. Also being health conscious, growing up. a working-class environment, seeing how certain foods and education around healthy eating is kind of not offered to us. It became something that I became quite aware of and wanted to make sure that I was as healthy as I possibly could be. You looked healthy when I saw you on stage.

5:46I was at Glastonbury. There's a lot to react to about the set. Shall we start with the elephant? I mean, there's a few different elephants, but there's a lot going on. And also, because around all of this, there's a controversy that sprang off everything that happened with Glasto, with your comments on stage, a chant, death, death to the IDF. Then that led to this ripple effect. You became an international news story. Shall we get into Glasto? It was an amazing atmosphere because kneecap were going to be the story of the festival. there'd been pressure on the organizers to cancel kneecap because of their outspoken political content and there was pressure maybe even on the BBC to not uh to not broadcast kneecap obviously for those who don't know kneecaps and irish political irish band um and there was you know they were dealing with their own legal issues around some of their political output so you were you were on before kneecap so there was this huge i mean many of them were there to see you but some of them were there to see kneecap and so there was just this i remember there was a message that went out an hour before saying like no more people can come to west halt stage it's too it's too packed right and and you did your show um the free free palestine chant went up and then you said something along the lines of forgive me if it's not verbatim i've got a new one for you and then so okay what's this going to be and it was death death to the idf and i I remember looking around thinking like, OK, that's raised it up a notch for sure.

7:19Some people chanted along, some didn't. But that then became an international incident with some people saying this is exactly what should be said amidst a genocide, amidst literally thousands of people, many of them children being killed in Gaza. And then other people saying he's calling for soldiers to be killed. It's a conscription army. Is he saying that actually Israeli soldiers should be killed wherever they are? Is he asking for the actual murder of soldiers as they wander around? And that was extrapolated into the idea that it was an anti-Semitic chant. And the Israeli embassy, I think, made a statement.

7:57It became very charged. I don't think I need to tell you that, right? What was the statement that the Israeli government made? Well, I could look up the embassy. I don't know what the government said. Oh, you said the embassy. The embassy specifically. I could dig it up. Do you want me to? Yeah, please, because I actually don't know. I actually... There was a lot going on at the time. Here we go. Israeli embassy said it was, quote, deeply disturbed by the inflammatory and hateful rhetoric expressed on stage, which, quote, advocate for the dismantling of the state of Israel and show the normalisation of extremist language and the glorification of violence.

8:36Keir Starmer called it appalling hate speech. and on and on. Was that what you expected? No, I had no expectations. Honestly, I hadn't heard it, I hadn't seen it because obviously there was a lot happening at the time, do you know what I mean? But walk me through what happened then. You come off stage... You come off stage and everyone's like, great show, fantastic. We waited for our buggy to pick us up and take us to the van so we could go home. Right. It was very normal. There's golf buggies that ferry. I learnt that at Glastonbury for the first time. There's golf buggies. Is that the first festival you've ever been to?

9:14No, no, I've been to Glastonbury three times, but I'd never been backstage and been on a buggy and been ridden around the little secret. It's like the hacks on a video game. You can hack Glastonbury. So you get on your buggy. This isn't about the buggy. No, it's not about it. But just to kind of show how mundane the whole thing was. It wasn't like we came off stage and everybody was like, it's just normal we come off stage it's normal nobody for anything nobody and even even staff at the bbc were like fantastic that was fantastic that was fantastic we we loved that there was like that's such an npc maneuver though isn't it's like any band comes off you go you smashed it fantastic no but that was like this was this was a couple hours later because it took us a little while to get, but like, you know, Dev, Dev, um, nobody at the BBC at that time was, was there like, oh my gosh, you know, but it was very normal.

10:14And then we got back and then, yeah, like I said, we went and got ice cream and obviously you kind of see. Somewhere in near Glastow, what, in Yovine? No, this is when we got back to London. Yeah, when we got back to London. Yeah. So we were just hanging out. That's a long drive back to London No, no, you're not... Now we blasted through. Is your phone not blowing up at this point? Yeah, to a certain extent. But, again, it's hard to say what's happening because, oh, you've been at Glastonbury, and what's happening because of the chant itself, you know, specifically. So the chant's been the subject of endless analysis, right, and interpretation.

10:51A BBC executive complaints unit kicked into gear. they published a decision on the 26th of September saying taken in the round, the comments from River to the Sea and fucking Zionists and death to the IDF could be construed as anti-Semitic for perpetuating stereotypes of Jewish influence but that basically said death to the IDF wasn't likely to lead to anyone being attacked because it's an institution rather than an individual's and not defined by ethnic or religious composition Thus it did not meet the threshold for incitement. It's been said there was an Avon and Somerset criminal investigation that's still active.

11:31Yeah, there's two. There's two criminal investigations that are still active. Then various people made various different kind of comments and put it in different contexts. Chuck D came to your defence. That's the homie, bro. I was speaking to him yesterday. Did you? Yes. From Public Enemy. That's more my vintage. What was he saying to you? Is he sort of giving you a little bit of advice or just being a friendly presence in your life? A friendly presence, I'd say, yeah. And a mutual appreciation is shared. Nice. Yeah, which is nice. He said when people say death to a country, they're not saying death to a people.

12:09The legendary rapper explained, they're saying death to imperialism, death to colonialism. Bob Villain ain't got no tanks. As far as we know. And then on the other side of the fence, who else have we got? I mean, we sort of talked about this. The UK's chief rabbi, Ephraim Mervis, called the episode A National Shame. He said, toxic Jew hatred is a threat to our entire society. I guess the construction is that... Who else did you find? Who was basically critical? I mean, there's quite a few of them. Well, you know this one because you responded. Damon Alban from Blur said, it was one of the most spectacular misfires I've seen in my life, especially when he started goose-stepping in tennis gear.

12:53Yeah. I think he was being hyperbolic. I know Damon a little bit. I'm declaring an interest. I think there's no space to be hyperbolic in that, especially given what we were accused of. Being accused of being anti-Semitic, it was disappointing because it lacked self-awareness, I think, his response. And I just want to say that, like, categorising it as a spectacular misfire, right, implies that somehow the politics of the band or our stance on Palestinian liberation is not thought out. and as a more senior, experienced... He's a veteran artist. He's been in this industry for a long time. I think that there were other ways that he could have handled that question being fielded to him.

13:55And I take great issue with the phrase goose-stepping being used because it's only used around Nazi Germany. That's it. And for him to use that language, I think is disgusting. I think his response was disgusting, especially when you look at it in comparison to Chuck D's response, who is equally seasoned in this music industry and is a veteran. And his response was, again, not because it was more favourable to us, but because he understood. But naturally, of course, Chuck D from Public Enemy is going to understand where we are coming from with our politics more so than, say, Damon Albert. Do you, just to be really super basic,

14:56fuck the IDF, I think, dispassionately, would be quite relatively easy to defend, I think, from that political position, right? Death to the IDF is obviously a step up from that. What does it mean, in your view? Because you're saying the people who take from that, oh, if you see an IDF soldier, kill him. There were many commentators who would have put that interpretation on it, so I think I'm inviting you to give your version of what that means. and maybe even with the spirit of, like, can you see how some people might have seen it the other way? I mean, my whole issue with this thing is that the chant is so unimportant.

15:46It's so unimportant. Like, and the response to it was so disproportionate. what is important is the conditions that exist to allow that chant to even take place on that stage. And I mean the conditions that exist in Palestine where the Palestinian people are being killed at an alarming rate. Who cares about the chant? You know, it's like, what is it that is allowing for that chant to even exist? That's what the focus should have always been on. What does it mean? What does it mean? Just to the IDF, yeah. You tell me what you think it means. I guess my starting point is, and speaking, because we've got very different life experiences.

16:52I'm conscious of all the privilege I've enjoyed, which is my long wind-up to saying... I was talking to the team about this. I don't think there's any chant that starts with death to that I'd be especially comfortable with. Death to capitalism? Death to capitalism, death to paedophiles, Death to Nazis, death to... You know, someone who opposes the death penalty, I suppose, death to the death penalty, it's kind of paradox. But you know what I mean? All right, let's take that. You know what I mean? Death to the death penalty. What's it mean? So death to... Yeah, it means... So I think the construction you'd put on it is that it means an end to, but obviously...

17:40An end to? Yeah. An end to the oppression that Palestinian people are facing, an end to the apartheid regime. that has been created. An end to that. End, end, the IDF does not rhyme. Wouldn't have caught on, would it? Do you know what I mean? Because that is what we're up there to do. We are there to entertain. We are there to play music. I am a lyricist, right? Deaf, deaf, the IDF rhymes. perfect chant the following week people in the audience started chanting it and you said no no don't stop that you're going to get me in trouble because at that point we had the criminal investigation was fresh and I was unsure of what the legal ramifications would be is it legally okay now the investigation's still going on uh but people chant at the show let them chant it but at that moment as well i suppose it's important to to understand like where we were in terms of the the the media right um anything everything it was just like they're waiting there so they want to see like is he going to say it again is he going to think whatever so um in an attempt to make sure I wasn't shooting myself in the foot when it comes to the criminal investigation, because the last thing I want to do is help London Met.

19:22It seemed like the appropriate thing to do, you know. The other thing to reflect on is it was alleged that after the Glastoset there was an uptick in anti-Semitic incidents. Did you see that? Yeah, I saw it. The Community Security Trust, an anti-Semitism monitoring charity, they noted that 29th of June saw the highest daily total of anti-Semitic incidents in the first half of 2025. That's a report in The Guardian. What are they counting as anti-Semitic incidents? I don't know. Yeah, because I didn't see what they were counting as anti-Semitic incidents when I read it in The Guardian either. I wonder how you would find that out.

20:04because in the reporting, no-one seemed to press on that quite key detail of what we're claiming is anti-Semitic. But I do think it's fair to say that there's a lot of nervousness in the Jewish community in general. Is that in your head at all, the possibility of creating an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community? Me creating an unsafe atmosphere? Well, that's what you've been accused of. isn't it? Yeah, I don't think I have created an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community. If there were large numbers of people going out and Bob Villain made me do this, then maybe I might go, oof, I've had a negative impact here.

20:57Again, in that report, what definition are they going by? We don't know that. So it's kind of hard to add anything to that, I suppose. We're going to find out. A little bit of suspense for people to listen to the end. Let's do justice to the level of the fallout. There was an American tour that was planned, and did Trump himself weigh in? I don't think he publicly weighed in. But Christopher Landau, the Deputy Secretary of State, he weighed in. I suppose explaining it, we had US visas that allowed us to go and work in America. And somebody has tweeted their local senator or something like this, saying these guys' visas should be removed.

21:58He then has talked to Christopher Landau. and Christopher Landau has said, I'm going to sort this out. I then get an email saying, your visa has been revoked. He then tweets out, done. That's how it took place? That's how it took place. You can go and you can look back at the tweets. So when the State Department spokesperson, Tammy Bruce, was questioned about it, and the journalist that asked the question, he said, for years and years, decades in fact, the mantra has been visa records are confidential. She didn't have an answer as to why, in this specific instance, the visa was removed publicly.

22:51So what's your point? My point is that they have done that specifically seeing the media attention and the discourse that it created and have sought to suppress that from happening any further. Any other artist doing a similar thing. It's a scare tactic. and also possibly to make us persona non grata. Don't stand next to this band. It might hurt your chances of getting your visa. It might show that, you know, you're supporting somebody that they deem, you know, a pariah. You got dropped by your agents? Yeah. UTA, is it? Yeah, so they were, yeah. I mean, again, it should be... I don't want to put anyone in the shit, you know.

23:51The call came on the Sunday. We played on Saturday. On Sunday, that's when our agent called and was like, look, guys, I've got to let you go. He said that it's come from the most senior members of the company. He didn't have any choice. It was either we go or he goes. And even if he goes, we don't get to stay. We go too. So that was kind of like how that transpired. I didn't, like, me and him are still, you know, he's cool. Is he still at UTA? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could argue it became a massive distraction, right? And maybe it was deliberately weaponised as a distraction tactic. Owen Jones said in his commentary a day earlier, This is before Glastonbury.

24:44The Israeli newspaper Haaretz revealed that Israeli soldiers and officers had confessed they'd been ordered to shoot at unarmed Palestinians as they queued for aid. At the same time, Ted Cruz, the American senator, is using you and the chant as a stick to beat anyone who disagrees with Israeli policy. I mean, that's an American senator with a huge international profile. So I guess it's a distraction, but in that sense, maybe it's a tactical error. Even if you're leaving aside the morality of it or otherwise, you could say you've opened the door to the possibility of people weaponizing a chant and just getting obsessed with that instead of focusing on the real issue.

25:31But they were doing everything they could to not focus on the real issue anyway. and it's not like they were so focused on the well-being of palestinian people in the first place and then oh no here comes bob villain and distracts us all and now we have to comment on this you know no wouldn't have changed their outlook but it gave you could argue that gave them an opportunity to distract millions of people hundreds of thousands of people and say like here This is the problem. It's not people being killed, civilians being bombed and killed and children being bombed and killed in Gaza. The problem is we've got a punk rock actor, artist, saying death to the idea that becomes an opportunity to misdirect.

26:15Well, yeah, but then even with you saying that, listen to how ridiculous it sounds. Do you know what I mean? It's ridiculous. of this. I think it kind of worked for some though, didn't it? I don't know because I think shortly after they were done battering us, the tide started to change a little bit. In what way?

26:46Well, I think having to have that conversation about the chant as they were all having amongst themselves, it created this discourse within the media of, is the chant right? Is it OK to say, is it this, is it that? And then that gave platform to certain people, maybe like Owen Jones, that would come on and say, well, actually, this is what we should be focusing on. We need to focus the attention back onto Gaza, back onto the people of Palestine. And he's laying out facts and presenting his argument. I think it allowed for that conversation to have a new life almost because unfortunately people have short attention spans and watching people being killed every day in real time for the last two years so vividly, so prominently, I think a lot of people just got numb to it.

27:52They stopped even seeing these individuals as actual people, start seeing them as numbers. But it's disgusting. Who cares about the chant? Why is that the conversation that they're having? But I do think within that conversation it allowed to bring the issue back to the front page. Do you stand by the chant And would you chant that on stage now Yeah like what If I was to go on Glastonbury again tomorrow Yeah I would do it again I'm not regretful of it I'm not regretful of it I'd do it again tomorrow Twice on Sundays I'm not regretful of it At all Like the subsequent Backlash that I've faced It's minimal It's minimal compared To what people In Palestine are going through If that can be my contribution And if I can have My Palestinian friends And people that I meet From Palestine I've had to flee I've lost members in double digits Of their family And they can say Yo, like your chant I love it or it gave me a breath of fresh air or whatever.

29:16And I don't want to overstate the importance of the chan. That's not what I'm trying to do. But if I have their support and they're the people that I'm doing it for, they're the people that I'm being vocal for, then what is there to regret? Or because I've upset some right-wing politicians, some right-wing media. This feels apropos. This is from Pretty Songs, which I saw you perform at Glastow. The lyric is, No liberal lefty cunt is going to tell me punching Nazis ain't in the way. That feels quite apropos to this conversation.

29:54Yeah, we should do like a project where you just read out lyrics that way because you can read out the whole song. It's quite enjoyable. Is it? It's kind of my way. But, you know, I know you're like, you're in this sort of grime punk genre, but rappers, especially where, you know, grime and drill artists, where they're like, I'm not telling you about any of that, I'm not talking about that. And then it's all in the lyrics, like basically full confessions. Yeah, except for they're doing... Yeah, yeah. Heady one. When I dug into the lyrics, I was like, well, let's see what's in the paper trail. In 2020, on England's ending, you said, this country's in dire need of a fucking spanking, mate.

30:32Spanking sounds relatively benign compared with some of the other things. look it over, get the fucking dinosaurs out yeah, and kill the fucking queen that escalated quickly she killed Diana, we don't love her anyway that's it, I would have thought that would have got some pick up, did anyone react badly to that? I mean I'm sure they would after your podcast thanks for dragging that up you were trying to keep that quiet no I'm not trying to keep it quiet, I mean it's there isn't it for everybody to go and listen to but you know But that's the issue that we now face, I suppose, as a band that has been thrust into the limelight or whatever, you know.

31:15Because it should be noted that, like, I was very, very happy with where the band was. Very happy, you know. Like, when people came up, they were fans of the band. The shows sold great and people bought the music and they, you know, I was extremely happy with how everything was. And then we were made famous by the media, tabloids and the news. And so now, all of a sudden, you have people that do not know anything about the band. and they will take the tiniest little thing, you know, lyric, and it becomes like a talking point and like a way of getting their political agenda across. You know, it's kind of like...

32:14And obviously that's not something that we have control of. But that's where we are as a band. so when you say those whatever certain lines it's like it's not no of course I'm not trying to keep it secret otherwise I'd have just removed the song from streaming platforms or whatever but it's more so those type of people that are not looking to enjoy the music they're not looking to learn about the band they're looking to just pile on you know I don't feel any need in helping them do that you know