S6 EP6: Florence Pugh discusses intimacy coordinators, jumping off buildings and getting into character

28:10I'm in a harness. So do you bounce or what happens? So essentially the winch is behind me. So when I step up, the winch is behind me and then the winch moves past me. And as the winch moves past me, you can kind of actually see in the take, there's a tiny tug where the winch has pulled me and I obviously don't want to fall off the edge. so I pull myself back. And then the call goes, ready, and three, two, one, and I then step off and the harness, obviously, I free fall for about six, seven metres and then nothing. Over just the streets of Kuala Lumpur? I thought there was going to be a net or something.

28:48I think there'd be like a platform. Yeah. There isn't? No. So it feels like you're just stepping out over the void. Yes, yeah. Well, it feels like I'm throwing myself off a building. That must be terrifying. And you know what's funny is even though I knew all the beats and I knew what was happening and I knew that I'd got myself there, every single time I had jumped off, my brain flashed and thought, fuck, you've done it. You're going to die. It's done. Every single time. Naturally, it would. How many times did you have to do it? I did it four times on the test day and five times on the shoot day.

29:23Wow. Did it get easier? Yes and no. First time it was a bit blurry. Yes and no. And then you free fall for six or seven metres. Yeah, and then you go... And then it goes... Yeah, and then you go... And then just pulls you back up. And you're just hanging there. And I kept on thinking how crazy it was that these little bits of straps were just holding me up. That's wild. Yeah. It's amazing, though. Life experience. I can never do that again, can I? Like that's never going to happen again. You're quite fearless, I think. I think that's what I like in roles. Can we relate it to your health scares growing up?

30:04Probably. Should we talk about that? Sure. So basically, it sounds from reading about you, you know, you grew up in Oxfordshire. What was the name of the town? Or was it outside Oxford? Yeah, Oxford. Oxford, you've heard of that one. and one of the things that you know really about you so you had this medical situation and correct me if I'm wrong that there was a time when your parents thought you might not lead a full life yeah I have a breathing issue which has obviously got better as I got older but when I was younger essentially I was born and my breathing tubes were really really floppy so I have trachymalacia and when I came out, the scan of me looked like there was just something flat on my chest.

30:50So from the get-go, there was something wrong and I sounded like a goose. And my laugh is kind of how I used to sound, so you can hear it. And there were plenty... When you inhale, it still sounds... Yeah.

31:11See? There you go. Wow. So I then had many years of ups and downs and I think that was a bit traumatic for my mum and my dad. Your parents thought you might not make it, basically. I don't think anyone really knew what it was that I had. I think they just knew that I couldn't breathe and it obviously affects your immune system as well so you become really, really tender to anything else that's around you. Is it genetic? No, it's just a disability in my throat. Really? I don't get as ill as I used to But even now as an adult Whenever I do get ill It's the same fall So it just gets quite scary quite quickly So I've You don't get as ill as often as you used to Yes But when you do get ill You get very ill It's pretty intense, yeah And what could bring it on?

32:03I usually get ill after working for a long period of time Like when I've been pushed and I've had a lot of adrenaline and usually after press tours I get quite ill or after I've been shooting a really long movie. And it's just when my body stops and then I'll be around someone that has a cold and it will, you know, quickly get to a chest infection and it has to be stopped really, really quickly. But when I was younger it would obviously be scary because I was in and out of hospitals so I'd come back, you know, for Christmas and I'd have pneumonia or whatever it was and it wasn't a very pleasant time.

32:35So my mum can't really, she doesn't really like talking about it. Really? Well, she does and we know what happened, but I think it was just a very scary, sad time. But you as well? I remember, yeah, I remember being in and out of hospital. Yeah, I remember my body hurting. How old would you have been? So we moved to Spain when I was three and I remember before that. So, yeah, in and out of hospital for a few years. And then I'd get lots of tests done to see what it was because they still didn't know what it was. Because for years it was like, well, she's got severe asthma, but it wasn't quite that.

33:15And then when I was 10, I got diagnosed with tracheomalacia. Did you move to Spain for the weather? Yeah, because of that. Because of that. Your parents, the whole family? Yeah. That's a big step, isn't it? Yeah. It's a lovely childhood, though. How long were you there for? Three years. Three and a bit years. Whereabouts were you? We were in Soto Grande. Say that again. Soto Grande. Soto Grande. Where is that? That's like half an hour, 20 minutes on the coast from Gibraltar. Nice. It was lovely. It was really, really sweet. And we were kids for a really long time and cycling around on bikes and always in and out of everybody's pools.

33:54It was like, it was perfect.

34:10This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business. Because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website, to marketing, to product descriptions, to sales.

34:52The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S.

35:24How are you? How's your energy? I like that you ask people that It's very sweet It's 11.15 I think we've got a bit of time Yeah we do I might need a wee in a bit Please Fait com chez vous Go right ahead Speaking of How do you feel about You're very free in your performances And I'm just curious about One of the things that's come up in conversations About sets and set dynamics Is intimacy coaches Coordinators Yeah coordinators Is that the term? and actually you often hear people, I've heard Michaela Cole say, oh, I love my intimacy coordinator. And then one or two people, Gwyneth Paltrow is one, Mikey Madison apparently, do you know about this, in Honora said she didn't want an intimacy coordinator.

36:11They're the people who can make sure that the acting of the intimate scenes goes well, goes smoothly for everyone. And that people are safe. And that they're safe. It's not to get in the way, it's not to confuse, it's not to make things more complicated or make things more awkward it's simply to make sure that everybody is happy with what they're creating and also that you're creating things that um have meaning to them I think I've had good ones and bad ones I did a lot of my sex scenes before that was even a job and I think I'm quite confident, I'm quite happy in my skin and I've always been able to make sure that I'm heard.

36:59That being said, even though I know that I believe that and even though I know that I felt that at the time, there are plenty of things that I remember where it was just completely inappropriate to have asked me to do that, to have directed me in that way. But my view is changing about it as well because I'm now having fantastic experiences with intimacy coordinators. However, that being said, I've also had like a shit example where someone just made it so weird and so awkward and really wasn't helpful and kind of was just like wanting to be a part of the set in a way that wasn't helpful. And I think it's like, it's a job that's still figuring itself out.

37:36But I will say that I've been able to understand and better meaning now through working with great ones in sex scenes, finding the story of what it is, what kind of sex is it, how do you touch each other, how long have you been having sex for? All of these things really, really matter when you're trying to build, for example, like a relationship that's been going for 10 years.

38:02And I'd never thought of it like that before because sex scenes are so awkward for everybody on set. so much of the time you're like okay okay so then you'd go there and all right brilliant and then it's done and you're and you're like kind of or everybody's just kind of working away to chip away at the scene and I think when I worked with a fantastic um coordinator I I was like oh this is what I've been missing understanding the dance of of intimacy as opposed to just shooting a sex scene so I do think it's like there are good ones and bad ones and it's through the good one that I I have learnt how effective it can really be.

38:41How kind of sort of literal is it? Is it sort of like we've agreed these set of... Yeah, whereas before that was never the case. Really? Before. So now what will happen is the conversations around the sex scenes will happen for maybe a good few weeks beforehand, which is important so everybody feels comfortable and it's not embarrassing saying certain things anymore. then they'll usually ask what your comfort level is. It's not embarrassing saying what kind of things? Well most of the time whenever you'd come to a sex scene you'd come like years ago you'd come to set and you'd start talking about it then and then you'd be trying to discuss like what your vision was or what their vision was and it was all very only in that moment that you'd be discussing it So it would feel a bit strange or a bit, yeah, awkward.

39:37Whereas I think now the communication and talking about it happens for a good chunk of time beforehand. So everybody feels aware of what's going to happen, how they're going to shoot it. You have safe words. You have areas that you don't like being touched, areas that are fine for someone to touch. All of these conversations are actually now happening, whereas before they didn't happen before. Are some bits taped off? like would you have coverings over certain parts of you would you wear little like slips and yes and it's their job to be in charge of that so you can imagine before there wasn't a specific person on set to be in charge of your coverage so costume were in charge of it which they always are and sometimes they would do a great job sometimes they'd just get you one type of thong that might not work on you might not fit you so I had experience in the past where we were using wig glue to like stitch me down because someone wasn't really thinking about it wasn't really looking after that part of it but you've now got a dedicated person that is there to make sure that all of your comfort is being thought about and what's allowed on camera what's not allowed on camera all of that is also um arranged with your lawyer because that has to be put into the contract Yeah, so your lawyer will basically be going through and making sure that a nudity rider, what you are allowing and what you're not allowing.

40:59And it will be spelled out? Yes. To the point we'll say? Yes. Will not show, will show. Nipple? Nipple. Upper breast. Nipple will be on show, will not show vagina, will not show this or whatever it is. It's like, well, and then it'll be like, we'll show a rear shot, but only from this scene onwards or only from. But then also it has to be. Everybody has to be aware of what's being shot. So I wouldn't, for example, go to set having just said, I don't mind my bumping on camera without knowing what their shot is, because if their shot is then to actually put the camera here and I'm bending over, that's not something that I'd ever agree to.

41:44So everything has to be spelled out. Also, those days are so... Everybody has to be so tender because it's very exposing and the crew are super respectful. Everybody looks away when you undress. Everybody looks away when you dress. The only time that they are focused is when you're doing the scene. Cameraman turn their backs or camerawomen turn their backs. everybody's very very very aware of of how um gentle the day should feel um and obviously you have closed sets so the monitors won't be if it's a if it's a good set the monitors will not be on outside of the room you know it's reminded me that we were talking about your health growing up and and and this sort of relates to boundaries and you know the sense of policing what you're willing to do and not willing to which isn't as easy as you might think it would be especially if you're trying to be receptive and collaborative but the fearlessness that came up early and the sense that it might be in some ways you know having been through so much growing up whether it really is connected to that or maybe that's just part of your personality but am I right thinking like my reader view is that you are someone who sort of knows her own mind and is sort of has a real appetite to challenge herself yeah I do like challenging myself and I think every single job that I do I make sure that I'm not comfortable and I think what I like about the stuff that I shoot is I'm trusting very specific directors to receive that part of me um so it doesn't go without making sure that the director knows that I'm in their hands because I trust them and if that ever has been broken, it's very sad.

43:34And it happens all the time. Does it? Well, no, I mean, I'm saying for lots of actors it does. Has it happened for you? Yeah. Are we going to talk about that? No. It's a change, because everything generates headlines, doesn't it? I know, and these podcasts, they're so fun to talk, and then tomorrow... And then you're like, oh, shit, that was actually recording. Well, no, it's more that, you know, people don't, they don't do your journalism. They then go, she said this. Yeah, yeah, it gets reduced. It gets reduced into a clickbait headline. And then it's like, well, we're having a conversation.

44:05Speaking of, so how are you enjoying superstardom? It's funny to know when it started, really. You never feel like you're there. So it's tricky to know when it was that it actually was changing. I think it started changing for me around Little Women. 2019 2019 and then we went into covid lockdown and the world stopped and so I sort of had like this weird pause um so I didn't I think that's probably when I didn't what I didn't realize that it was growing because it was happening while everybody was you know not going about normal life as well but I wasn't really aware of that um and I think that's probably what kind of stunted my awareness of the trajectory of my career.

44:54But it's all rewarding. It's because people appreciate what you're doing and appreciate the work that you make and appreciate... There's more to it than that, though, isn't there? Actually, because there's this whole ancillary industry that isn't about the work, it's about the fact that you're incredibly famous, and I think we should acknowledge that. Oh, I see. Is that what you're asking? Well, I'm asking superstardom. It's double-edged, isn't it? Because you will be able to keep working and you can open a big movie and people, millions of people love what you do and then millions of people are just following it like it's a soap opera and commenting online and maybe making remarks that are hurtful.

45:31And I think you have to, that's all part of the same thing. I think you just have to be aware that the more and more work that you do, the more you expose yourself, the more that you put out there, the bigger following you'll receive. and it's not really something that you have control over. If you keep working and you like what you do and you keep making movies, you'll have to do a press tour that will promote you even further. So it's tricky in that sense, yeah, because the more and more work that you want to make or you want to put out there is meaning that you're closing off your independence or your freedom.

46:09Privacy. Privacy. You don't talk about your relationships. Not anymore. why not um i with relationships and with romance in this world it doesn't matter how much you speak on it or how little you speak on it people don't care they they want a story they want um they sort of want like a reality show and so it doesn't really matter how much you say you love someone or how much they make you happy if they don't like them and it doesn't fit that image that they want of you they don't care and I think that hurt me um when you were in a relationship and it was criticized yes and I stood up for it and I stood up for him and I stood up for me just being allowed to do whatever the fuck I wanted to do and that kind of did actually change a few people's minds and I actually had a few people in the public eye reach out to me and say I don't think of it like that and thank you for saying that but I think generally it's um it's it's just funny isn't it and also since then I've got bigger I've I've I've become a different star people people will probably want to know a little bit more and and I think you have to just ask yourself the more you expose the more you're allowing people to have comment on it and if they don't know they can't really make comment on it um that being said I think I'll always defend people that I love I will always stand up for them I'll always make sure that if there needs to be a reset and there needs to be a bit of a smack on the wrist I will do that because it's not fair that so much of your life gets to have jabs um but I think something that has me no if you need to be a reset do you mean you're defending someone else or no I mean I mean online because that's essentially what happened years ago it you know it there was a an insane amount of abuse being hurled at my relationship just because there was an age gap and you say it was zach brav yeah yes and i did director and actor yes and it got to the point where it was just really horrible to see someone that you are with receiving that and it was never at me it was only at him um and I think it just I just needed to kind of just check everyone and so I made a video um and it got a lot of love and lots of people were supportive which was great and I think people do online need to be reminded that we're real I think I think there's so much of it we're living in a time with Instagram where it's encouraged to show every single part of your life which sometimes is slippy because you accidentally do it and then you go fuck I just showed them this and now they're expected to see more and it's tricky also when you when when that's it's so easy to make stories or it's so easy to share or it's so easy to allow people in but you have to also remind yourself that you're letting them in.

49:19And you have to, I guess, like check yourself and also check the way that people are talking about you or talking at you or talking about your life. And then also you have to ask yourself if it's necessary. So if I am exposing that part of my life and people are saying nasty things, like, okay, well, the one thing I can do is stop talking about that part of my life.

49:42Last, we should shout out We Live in Time, the film you did with Andrew Garfield. It's a tear-jerker. Did you like it? I did, yeah. It was sad, but also... Happy. Happy with all the emotional moods. I enjoyed the... It unfolds an unpredictable chronology. It's not sequential, and so you try to figure out where you are in the story, and that kind of keeps you moving through it. Here's the quote. You can leave this on the table. Oh, shall I say this? I'll say it, and we can just not touch it. You said on her relationship, I've learned that love is not supposed to hurt. This is something you said.

50:20It's also not meant to be easy, but it's not supposed to hurt. Oh, I did that in an interview, a magazine. The amount that it hurts is not supposed to show the amount of love there is.

50:31Getting the Louis blinks.

50:36yeah I think I have done quite a fair bit of growing a fair bit of working on myself I think the further and further away you get from

50:54a relationship that was causing you pain obviously the love reduces and so you realise just how much pain you were in and I think that that kind of inspired me well I needed to to be honest really kick myself into um looking inwards figuring out why I thought I deserve that kind of love making sure that that doesn't happen again um making sure that I am changing I'm growing I'm taking accountability for things I'm I'm healthier now I'm a lot happier now I think when you're such a bubbly person and you fill in a lot of energy for other people, it's definitely, I'm definitely the last person that I look after.

51:45And there's an expectancy, I feel, I felt like there was an expectancy that I needed to be good for everybody else, I needed to be upbeat for everybody else. and my issues, my worries, my pains weren't worthy of being spoken about. They weren't necessary to speak about because it would bring people down and we don't want that. And so I think for a long time, I didn't expose that part of my life to even my friends. And then, of course, you find yourself in a pit or in a mess. Which part? You mean the part that's not well? Yeah, the part that's not well. The part that a relationship is feeding into, the part that, you know, it's all kind of murky and messy.

52:31And it's that people pleaser thing where you just try and keep things afloat without anybody else knowing that you're paddling for dear life. And I think it was an important change that was brought on by a breakup. which is where you got that quote from. Do you think, was there anything that helped you have the insight to end the relationship? I'm just wondering if we could make it almost practical because I think a lot of people could relate to that. And I think in relationships in general, a lot of them you're thinking about, is this a good relationship? Is this a healthy relationship? Am I giving too much?

53:18Well, I think that's where the quote kind of comes in, is that I think for a while I really thought that the amount that it was hurting was the same amount of love that there was in the relationship, and I think that kind of got weaponised. By you? Like, you weaponised it against yourself? No. Within the relationship, it was like, oh, this hurts so much because we care. It's hurt so much because we love each other so much. And unfortunately, that's just not how love should be treated. and I think the danger with that is when things go wrong or there's little microaggressions of tiny versions of whatever abuse it is whether it's verbal or emotional or manipulative it kind of gets further and further away from what's normal and so then you find yourself at the end going oh shit a lot of weird stuff is happening and I've normalized this and it is not normal to feel like this and it is not normal to be treated like this and then also your behavior gets normalized as well you know you're a part of this weird kind of messy feeling and it doesn't at the end of the day feel good so I think that's what I was trying to say a messy yeah dynamic and And I think, so do you think it's the case that people, how does one check in about that?

54:47Like how does, because as you say, it becomes normalised and then how do you think you take the temperature on what's really going on? Is it by speaking to a counsellor, checking in with friends? Probably. Sometimes friends also, they sort of encourage, you know, because outsiders are like, you shouldn't be putting up with that. And then they don't really see what's going on necessarily. and you don't know that you're giving the best version of what... It's really complicated. It is. I don't know what you do in that situation. I think, obviously, communicating is the most important thing. I stopped communicating.

55:21That's where it went wrong. I wasn't telling people anything, so no one had a clue. Outside the relationship, you mean? No one knew. So how did you have a breakthrough then? Because I had a breakdown. Really? Yeah.

55:37and that's fairly obvious when that happens and when you're hurting your body when you're not sleeping or you're drinking too much or you've got the shits because you're so anxious that's your body screaming at you I found myself injured, I would injure myself I'd be chopping and I'd chop huge chunks out of my hands and like I've just never done that since my body was just like in full panic mode it wasn't I was I was injuring myself in order to look after myself which is a funny thing of my my body asking for help but I think it became increasingly obvious that something wasn't right but it's hindsight is always a it's a funny thing are you in a relationship now I am yeah does it feel good?

56:31Very good. Congratulations. Thank you. So, we look into the future. Would you direct? I would love to direct. I'd love to direct, but because of situations that I've had in the past where leadership is a bit wonky, I just really want to make sure that I'm ready for it. I really want to make sure that I've done my due diligence. I know how to talk to actors. I know how to hold are set together and I think because I know how awful it can feel when it goes wrong, I've been very, very apprehensive about starting that journey of actually then doing it. I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't want to fuck anyone up and I don't want you're you are the leader of a ship, you're looking after so many people.

57:20It's a huge responsibility. I want to do it properly if I were to do it. I think we're great. Listen, you've brought so much. Thank you. Into the room. I'm trying to think. We went to places, I mean... Deep. We're all just strange. You're going to need six months to recover from this interview. No, just things that I wasn't even like, oh, we're going to talk about that. Which bit? Like some of the movies. Malevolent? Yeah. If there's one takeaway, it's definitely see Malevolent. No!

58:02Okay, welcome back. Thank you for watching. Thank you to Florence for joining me. What a powerful conversation, in my humble opinion. And to say again, that all the films she's in, she brings maximum performance. Odd phrase. Not all the films are excellent. In fact, she didn't want to talk about Malevolent, which I thought was okay. I like horror films, so it sort of scratched the itch. But I can see why she might not think it's her favorite piece of work. But what were the other ones? The Wonder is really dark and powerful and kind of brilliantly twisted about a woman exploring an apparently paranormal religious phenomenon in rural Ireland in the 19th century.

58:49Lady Macbeth is harrowing, dark and kind of brilliant. and the, I think, criminally underrated Don't Worry Darling, which gets 38%. I just looked on Rotten Tomatoes, and I just think that's, why is that? I don't know. Snobbery? It's the kind of high-concept sci-fi that is right in my wheelhouse. Random fact, in preparing my research, so it's about, I think it's fair to say it's sort of about misogyny, and about a community where the women are kept in a sort of state of mysterious subjection. Olivia Wilde, the director, has said she was inspired to make it by Jordan Peterson. In other words, the Canadian psychologist who's become a controversial figure on the right, I think something about his profile alarmed her, and that was part of what inspired her to make the film.

59:53This is kind of interesting to me because I follow that stuff for my documentary work. In an interview with Interview Magazine, Olivia Wilde said, we base that character, the character of Chris Pine, the guru, on this insane man, Jordan Peterson, who's this pseudo-intellectual hero to the incel community. Peterson responded. He said, now Pine, that's my, he's got quite a high voice. Now Pine has a reputation as quite an attractive man, so that could be worse. that's actually a pretty good Peterson impression I also hope that Chris Pine at least does the sartorial splendor of my very formal public wardrobe justice I'm getting higher as he pillories me in the latest bit of propaganda disseminated by the woke self righteous boars and bullies who now dominate Hollywood I'm getting higher and who insist on the production of such tripe so there little bit of background info on that Wow, I've derailed myself Inuits, the term Eskimo I think is not favoured anymore Inuits, the indigenous people of northern America and Siberia Northern North America I think I said that sometimes the Inuit people would put older ladies on ice flows Or blocks of ice and then push them out to perish at sea um it was kind of cavalierly and maybe glibly thrown out as a factoid Millie's done some digging well there's so much information in this outro we've got the Peterson hello I'm Jordan Peterson bucko Peterson is famous saying bucko I never thought anyone actually would say bucko I thought that was something you just heard like in fiction you're wrong about that bucko it's woke Hollywood nonsense you know with the Steve Coogan one I was saying I can't do impressions.

1:01:42It turns out I can do so many impressions. That enters the LT impression lexicon alongside, I'm not going to bend a spoon for you, Louis. Fucking hell, I can't do more than one at a time. I can't do Peterson straight into Geller. That is too much to ask. I'm not a professional. I'm just a gifted amateur. There's evidence that senicide, great word, the killing of older people, was rare. but existed in Inuit communities. Yes. But not yes to the doing it, but yes to the correctness of me saying it. Mainly what I got from the chat, though, wasn't the senicide. It was Florence's appetite for life and for work.

1:02:27And I was thinking about it afterwards. And, you know, we spoke about her brush with health issues that are still ongoing. And that that seems, this is my amateur psychologist portion, but that that's given her a lust for life, that she attacks life with someone who's got a renewed appreciation for how valuable it is and wants to make every day count. So there, I'm being sincere now. And maybe there's a lesson in that. Maybe I could be a bit more like that. I've got a lust for life and other things. What does that mean? That's it for this week. Apart from the credits, the producer was other things like fine wine and chocolate.

1:03:11Where was your mind going? The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Sally McLennan. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The audio mix was by Tom Guest. The video mix was by Scott Edwards. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

1:03:37This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah, well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it. especially if your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales.

1:04:19The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S that's Shopify.com slash Louie L-O-U-I-S