S7 EP2: Kyle MacLachlan on his relationship with David Lynch, Showgirls, and viral stardom

15:30Louis Theroux:Well, he found Jeffrey... He's in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah, Jeffrey Beaumont. And he's intrigued with Isabella's character, Dorothy Valens, and he's there and he doesn't really know what to do, but he knows he's attracted to her. And while he's in the apartment...

15:51Kyle MacLachlan:She finds you in the closet first.

15:53Louis Theroux:Yes.

15:54Kyle MacLachlan:And she's cross, but she's intrigued. Yes. Isabella Rossellini, who's got this faint sort of French or European accent, is one of the many intriguing details in this sort of Lumberton, in this sort of kind of unprepossessing small Midwestern, or maybe it's Northwestern town. It could be anywhere. And then for some reason they've got this mysterious chanteuse who sings at the local nightclub. It's definitely not taking place quite in the real world. Right. It's a world adjacent to the real world. Yes. Would you agree? I agree.

16:24Louis Theroux:Yeah, I agree. That's why I'm so comfortable there.

16:29Kyle MacLachlan:Dennis Hopper has said, apparently that part was offered initially to Willem Dafoe. Had you heard that?

16:35Louis Theroux:Oh, it makes sense, but I hadn't, yeah.

16:37Kyle MacLachlan:I guess Dennis Hopper heard about it. He said, this is me. I am Frank. Yeah, yeah. Quite a statement.

16:45Louis Theroux:Yes, right? Well, Dennis, we were all intimidated to meet Dennis the first time because of all the stories, of course.

16:52Kyle MacLachlan:A legend who had acted alongside James Dean back in the day. Oh, my God, a complete legend.

16:57Louis Theroux:But a wild man. A wild man, yeah. Easy writer. Yeah, easy writer, his film. And in one of my favorite films of all time, Apocalypse Now. and he's absolutely crazy in that.

17:09Kyle MacLachlan:He plays the crazy photographer who's hanging out with Colonel Kurtz. I can't do it.

17:16Louis Theroux:He's the big man. I'm a little man. I'm a very little man. What are fractions? How do you deal with fractions? I'm just watching him going, that's the most beautiful improv or the craziest improv I've ever seen. I met him and I said, oh, my God, he's been sober for two years. and he came in and he was so warm and genuinely interested in meeting you and genuinely a curious man, a curious person. And he had recognized in David the genius. And David to that point, he'd done Eraserhead, Elephant Man, Dune, which had not gone well. And so this was pretty early in his career, but Dennis recognized him, a fellow artist.

18:03Louis Theroux:and when he signed on as Frank, he recognized, he said, when he said, I am Frank, it's like, I know this person because I have been him, I think, during his crazy period. And he said, I think I'm in a place now where I can channel that without it taking me over, you know. And he did just an extraordinary job. I basically just reacted in the scenes with him. I wasn't acting. I was just completely terrified.

18:27Kyle MacLachlan:I'm a bit of a noob about movie making. So those scenes where you're in the closet and you're looking through like a slatted door peeking through. Are you actually looking at it? Like, are you there?

18:38Louis Theroux:No, no, no. The scenes between Dennis and Isabella that you were talking about, the ones when she was sexually assaulted, were done closed set. You weren't there for that? I was not there. No one was there for that apart from the absolutely essential crew members. But David would be there talking me through, okay, Kale, you know. He called you Kale. Yeah. What was that about? That was a reference. Well, the first thing we did together was Dune, which was produced by Dino De Laurentiis, the famous Dino De Laurentiis. And Dino had a very, very strong accent, and he couldn't pronounce my name. Right.

19:13Louis Theroux:So instead of Kyle, it was Gale. Gale. But more like this. Gale.

19:17Kyle MacLachlan:He called Laura Dern... Tidbit.

19:20Louis Theroux:Tidbit. Yeah, Tidbit.

19:21Kyle MacLachlan:So she called him Tidbit back.

19:23Louis Theroux:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was crazy. He had nicknames for a lot of people.

19:29Kyle MacLachlan:Oh, fuck anything that moves. I'm not doing it. That's not me. You did pretty well.

19:34Louis Theroux:That's not me as me. No, no. You're obviously playing a character.

19:37Kyle MacLachlan:I can't. I can't. Don't you fucking look at me. I can't do it at all.

19:41Louis Theroux:Pretty intense, right? Think of what's happening in that mind.

19:47Kyle MacLachlan:Do you have any thoughts on what he's inhaling from a mask?

19:50Louis Theroux:Yes, yeah.

19:51Kyle MacLachlan:Do we know what he was inhaling?

19:53Louis Theroux:Well, there were a couple stories. One was David had thought maybe helium because in David's mind he thought that the changing of the voice to a child, he wanted it more to be like a child's voice.

20:05Kyle MacLachlan:Because they say he's two characters. He's either daddy or baby. Yeah. In the act of his almost sexual psychosis. Yes. When he's in that moment.

20:15Louis Theroux:Yes. But when they heard it back, everyone laughed and all the menace went right out of it. so Dennis said why don't we think it's something like a nitrous some kind of a thing and so and he kind of changed his voice he got kind of you know in here when he was in that moment but it was meant to be some kind of a stimulant and then other people say it wasn't anything at all it was just an affectation he just had it just for a whatever it was that he needed to have so I don't know

20:42Kyle MacLachlan:in a documentary on the 2002 special edition version of the film Hopper says the drug was amyl nitrate an angina medication used recreation sensationally as an inhalant in the disco club scene. Oh, poppers. Poppers. We know them as poppers. One of the observations, by the way, I know you're here to talk about Fallout, and that's a brilliant TV show. Thank you. And we want that to be a big hit. I don't want you to think I'm neglecting my duties.

21:09Louis Theroux:No, no, I feel like we're kind of working our way up to it.

21:12Kyle MacLachlan:That's there. Yes. But back in Lynchland, he passed away just a few months ago. he was notoriously averse to over-explaining. Yes. And you wrote rather a beautiful appreciation of him after he died, making the same point that perhaps he wouldn't have needed to make the movies if he'd been able to fully explain them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. What was he driving at?

21:40Louis Theroux:What's going on? You know, I have my thoughts. I don't know. I do know that David had a tremendous lightness around him and a joy, particularly in the creative environment, that I think somehow allowed him to visit, create, interact with the darker sides of things, things that a lot of people would turn away from. David would look at, you know, and draw some kind of creative power from. He didn't dwell in those worlds that I could see. They weren't part of his personality. He was always up and really fun and joyful. And then when he wasn't, you know, in a blink of an eye, he was, you know, which was kind of amazing.

22:39Louis Theroux:I think people assume that he lived this very sort of dark and tortured existence, which wasn't the case at all. But that was part of his, I feel, part of his creative source material, for lack of a better word. So that's what I've always sort of put it to.

22:56Kyle MacLachlan:When you connected with him, what was the process? What do you think he saw in you that he thought, well, look, let me make it really... You're on record as saying, sometimes it was as though I was a creation of his mind. I don't just mean Geoffrey Beaumont, Special Agent Dale Cooper, with David Lynch creations. I mean, Carl McLachlan too. This version of me doesn't exist without him.

23:19Louis Theroux:Yeah, it was definitely a connection of meeting of the minds of somehow with us. And for a long time, I didn't really understand. I probably still have it wrong, but I didn't really understand what it was. And then I began to realize, no, I am kind of a stabilizing force in the worlds that he has generated. that allows the audience to come with me. So in some ways I'm putting the audience on my back and we're going through this together and there is a grounding or a stabilizing or sort of an everyman.

23:56Louis Theroux:Acceptance isn't exactly the right word for what happens, but I think there's definitely some kind of allowing of these things to happen without too much judgment and just passing through these worlds and I think that was true in Blue Velvet with Geoffrey and certainly in Twin Peaks, certainly in Twin Peaks.

24:20Kyle MacLachlan:Did he give you much direction? It's been said that he would say things like more wind or think Elvis.

24:25Louis Theroux:Yeah, they were more sensations, which I would interpret in a certain way. So Elvis was one, wind, more mystery. Sometimes it was just a hand gesture like this. Sometimes there wasn't anything said at all. I do a scene and we do cut, you know, and I'd stay for a minute and David, we'd sort of stand together. And I'm thinking back through the scene and I'm going, I think, and he's sort of, it's not quite resolved. He's sort of pulling, he's standing, he's sort of pulling on his lip. And it wasn't really any kind of, nothing said. I said, let me, and I would say, say something. I'd say, let me try this one thing.

25:01Louis Theroux:And I wouldn't even say what it was. And he'd be great, great, great, great kale, you know. And I would then, I would do, interpret something or something would have come to me. I don't know. and I would try slightly different. And usually it was the right thing, you know. So we did have a shorthand for sure. When Dune came out, you mentioned, like it wasn't a huge hit.

25:26Kyle MacLachlan:I don't know what they were expecting. Presumably they wanted to make a lot of money. Yeah. He said he wasn't happy. He actually described that as enormously painful, I think. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what that was about?

25:38Louis Theroux:Well, I think it had to do with just the cut and time, and he wasn't able to do what he wanted. You know, it was a massive thing to go from Elephant Man to Dune. I mean, the scale alone was, you know, we had eight sound stages going full on, and locations as well in Mexico City. And at the time, it was my first film. I had no idea how this whole thing worked, you know. I just said, oh, this is how you make a movie. You know, you buy up all the sound stages, you fill them to the very edge, and you just go shoot. but it was there was hundreds and hundreds of people that were you know constantly needing to you know questions questions questions questions questions and i don't think david was comfortable in in that environment you know it was very very challenging and uh so i think there was a struggle there and it was a struggle i think in terms of the cut and how long it could be and it's a movie that you can't possibly do and we i think we were two hours 16 minutes there's no way you can just barely scratch the surface you know the the more recent one they've got three you know what i mean you were in the timothy chalamet role in a sense yes yes or he was in

26:43Kyle MacLachlan:he was in my role exactly exactly you had the bouffant hair i had great hair in common yeah yes yes that was about it uh i haven't watched the new one new one he does a great job timmy does he does a great job he's a great actor he's a terrific talent yeah it came out in 84 Before, it was not, as we said, a huge success, but then you had Blue Velvet. He'd already cast you in Blue Velvet. That came out. That was a hit. Was that a hit straight?

27:08Louis Theroux:Not really. People did not know what to make of it. Right. And it took Pauline Kael's sort of intellectual review, I guess, to help people understand where David was coming from. You know, that this is a different voice.

27:24Kyle MacLachlan:Was it Pauline Kael? Did she kind of anoint it? She did. She got it. Yeah, she did. What did she say about it?

27:29Louis Theroux:I don't remember. Courtney Keller, legendary New Yorker film critic, you should say. She just, I remember there was, I don't remember anything specific, just the fact that this is a voice that needs to be, a visionary that needs to be seen and experienced. And she just presented a different way into the movie that most critics, I think, were not either willing to sort of go or didn't understand. And she sort of, she just very succinctly pointed everybody in the right direction.

27:58Kyle MacLachlan:one review like that can change the narrative

28:01Louis Theroux:at that time yeah it helped tremendously she was really well respected Roger Ebert didn't like it so much but Roger he had strong points of view some things he loved some things he hated

28:12Kyle MacLachlan:one star was his verdict

28:14Louis Theroux:well we got a star

28:15Kyle MacLachlan:I don't think zero stars was an option weirdly though I mean it's a brilliant film I hope I've made that clear what I got from his review was that Yeah, this is really interesting. And Isabella Rossellini in particular, he singles out, but he feels like the sex and violence wasn't treated with enough seriousness. Yeah, yeah. I know he objected to that side of the film, those elements. And I can understand, it's such strong stuff, it would be weird if it didn't lose a few people. Do you know what I mean?

28:47Louis Theroux:Oh, no, it's not easy to sit through. That's tough. What Isabella goes through, those scenes were, I mean, incredibly difficult. She suffered a lot too, actually. Do you think so? Yeah. She lost a contract with some of the cosmetic things she was doing. She was sort of blacklisted from it. She was – people were – yeah, people were up in arms. They were appalled, you know, because I think she was still carrying some of the – you know, the daughter of Ingrid Bergman, you know, and what happened to her. And there was some – What happened to Ingrid Bergman? She was – well, she was married. She was a – To Roberto Rossellini, the director.

29:23Louis Theroux:Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had left her husband for Roberto Rossellini and she moved to Italy and she was, you know, the great actress, the American actress. And suddenly she turned her back on that and, you know, had left her husband and her children and, you know, everything like that. So big deal, yeah. So there was a lot of judgment. I didn't know that. Yeah. I may not have that history exact, but I know that there was definitely not looked – I was sort of frowned upon what she did at that time.

29:51Kyle MacLachlan:That's interesting. I didn't realize – Very brave of Isabella Rossellini to take on the role. Had she done much acting before?

29:58Louis Theroux:Not a lot. Not a lot.

29:59Kyle MacLachlan:She was mainly a model, right?

30:01Louis Theroux:Yeah. Yeah. And she had done a little bit. I don't think she had done White Nights yet. I don't know if she had done a couple of things. Was she in White Nights with Mikhail Baryshtakov? Mikhail Baryshtakov, yeah.

30:08Kyle MacLachlan:And Gregory Hines?

30:10Louis Theroux:Yeah. Yeah. Taking me back now. I know. We're going deep. Gee. But she was, we had rehearsals. She asked if we could do some rehearsals of these particular scenes just so she could get a sense of what was going to be asked of her, you know, that she could feel comfortable with. And she was comfortable with a lot of things. And we just, you know, we very gently walked through all the pieces, you know, as you do, you know, just so everyone is comfortable. This was before there was any, now they have, you know, people that are there for, what do they call it? Intimacy coordinators. Yeah, exactly.

30:44Louis Theroux:And that didn't exist, but we were all treating it exactly as they would, you know, making sure everybody is comfortable with everything that we're doing.

30:53Kyle MacLachlan:And she is exposed literally, figuratively. There's a fine line between kind of awfulness and comedy in some of it. One of her lines is, she says to you after you've had sex. Do you remember the line?

31:08Louis Theroux:She says, now you put, yeah, you put your disease in me or something to that effect.

31:12Kyle MacLachlan:Yeah. And then later on, she turns up naked in front of your house.

31:16Louis Theroux:Yes, that was a shocking night.

31:17Kyle MacLachlan:And then you take her inside and then, or is it the house of the Laura Dern character? And then Isabella Rossellini naked has her arms around you. She's kind of, you're looking a little bit awkward. I won't say stiff. And she's saying, he put his disease in me. Yeah. And then we see Laura Dern like, what the hell? Yeah, yeah. Not a good night for Jeffrey. It's kind of funny though. It's funny. He put his disease in me. It's like farce almost.

31:41Louis Theroux:Yeah, yeah.

31:42Kyle MacLachlan:I think, or is there something wrong with me?

31:43Louis Theroux:No, no, I think you're catching exactly what, David. You know, it's a mix of in highly tense situations, right? There is people laugh, you know, they can't help it. And I think there's something in the thing of like, I don't know, like one, I'm going to try this out.

31:59Kyle MacLachlan:Like with David Lynch, there's a little bit of horror of bodily functions. I'm going to try it. Or just the human condition, like our physicality. So with the sex with Frank, he's going like, oh, mommy, I want to get in there. Don't look at me. Oh, mommy, I don't like it. And it's like, it's kind of funny but horrific. And then he put his disease in me. Like bodily, like there's something about the physicality that we are squeamish about. Yeah.

32:25Louis Theroux:And he's right there and making you look.

32:27Kyle MacLachlan:Making you look at it.

32:28Louis Theroux:Making you not look away. And there you are. Don't you fucking look at me.

32:31Kyle MacLachlan:Don't you fucking look at me.

32:33Louis Theroux:That's crazy.

32:35Kyle MacLachlan:To what extent do you feel you're a creature of Hollywood? Not really I mean, you've had a kind of consistent career You've been working You're a track record I mean, there's so many things we could talk about We could talk about Portlandia, which is brilliant Oh, that's fun We could talk about Desperate Housewives There's a certain continuity Which is that very often it feels like you're playing off An all-American archetype either in a way that's uncomplicatedly good and benign or in a way where it's a deceptive exterior for someone who's more troubling and devious. But you're always there. I guess you have that kind of, you have those good looks of yours, god damn you, that my wife was so and may still be so besotted with.

33:22Louis Theroux:I think they're odd a little bit, a little not traditional. Yeah, it's a little different. Go on. Well, I feel that part of that is just slightly off, you know. I'm not seeing that. Well, maybe, I mean, I see it, I guess. I just, chins too big, things are a little out of proportion. No. You know, but, you know. Are you just saying that? Maybe unless, because I'm from the UK, I'm Scottish and English. You fit right in. And this is the only place people can spell my name or pronounce my name. So that's, there's my people. So maybe I'm along here. Thank you.

33:59Kyle MacLachlan:Welcome home. Happy to have you. I was trying to figure out who your peer group was. How conscious of you were? Because people of a similar age, I looked this up, you were born in 59, same year as Val Kilmer. Yeah, I love Val. Tom Cruise, a lot of him. Yeah, he's familiar. Yeah, yeah, done a few things. 1962, so he'd be three years younger. Clooney, he was born in 61. Tom Hanks, 56. He was born so he'd be three years older than you, the big daddy. Did you see that as your peer group? Were you competitive in any way?

34:34Louis Theroux:I did not see that as my peer group at all. I felt like I was sort of in a satellite orbit sort of around Hollywood, sometimes getting closer and then sometimes quite far away. What was your time of maximum heat? Maximum heat? Well, you know, it's a cycle, right? Obviously now. The first one is now. Yeah, I'm kind of up. Yeah, I've gone. The bell curve, I'm up higher now. I've been very low. I was sort of low during sort of the 90s, the mid-90s, although there was Sex and the City, which was early 2000s.

35:14Kyle MacLachlan:So basically after Blue Velvet, Pauline Kael, it was embraced. Maybe it was a sleeper of a sort.

35:22Louis Theroux:Kind of slow. yeah slow certainly a cult oh yeah it's like and and that sort of pushed me into more of the cult side of things you know what I mean um and Hollywood then you must have done a bunch of

35:34Kyle MacLachlan:meetings and everyone's like you you're you're the coming man no no not really no I wasn't the

35:38Louis Theroux:coming man at all I was it was the weird it was the weird outsider so I started those kind of things started to kind of filter in and I was like I'm not really I don't really feel like this is I can be the weird outsider with David, but I'm not the weird outsider in a regular movie. It didn't make sense to me. I said, I'm not that person. So I just was like, I'm kind of between two worlds. I played a fun character in The Hidden who was from another world, another planet, but ultimately good. In some ways, I feel like there may have been a few directors who were not interested in working with me because of the stamp of working with David was so strong.

36:15Louis Theroux:You know, if it was between Dune, not so much, but Blue Velvet for sure and Twin Peaks for sure, the identity was very strongly, you know, identified with Lynch, which at the time I was like, I felt sort of ambivalent about. But now, of course, I'm absolutely thrilled that I was able to be part of that universe. It comes with age and maturity, I guess.

36:35Kyle MacLachlan:What would have been ambivalent making about it?

36:37Louis Theroux:The fact that I think it was so strongly identified that there were other opportunities that I didn't feel were necessarily available to me at that time. There was an actor that was trying to, you know, do everything, you know. That was what I was trying to do. So it was an odd time, you know. And I think Twin Peaks and The Doors happened right about the same time. The Doors, the Oliver Stone movie? Yeah. Yeah, so that was...

37:03Kyle MacLachlan:Which has Val Kilmer in it.

37:05Louis Theroux:Yeah, Val. So the crazy story is Val was sort of a top choice for Dune for the role of Paul. And then I came in... Yeah, and then I came in and sort of unseated him. And then we turned around and we did The Doors years later. And so then he was the lead. It was Jim, and I was Ray Kumanzerik. You could have played Ray Kumanzerik, by the way. You have the right look and build. Put some mutton chops on you. Get a nice blonde wig.

37:32Kyle MacLachlan:I think I might be a little old. I could do the autumn years of Ray Kumanzerik.

37:37Louis Theroux:Yeah, yeah. It would be perfect, actually. You play the piano? Are you a keyboardist? No, but they just cut away. Fingers cut away. Yes.

37:44Kyle MacLachlan:Yes. Hands of Manzarek played by. Yeah. But what was your point was that that you and Val were kind of trading off or that Hollywood was keeping you at arm's length? No, no.

37:56Louis Theroux:That was sort of an interesting sort of dynamic that happened, you know. But there were other things that sort of came and went. But it was definitely, there was periods of lull where there was not, let's say the phone wasn't ringing, you know, for whatever reason. And then, you know, sex in the city. So in the early 2000s, sex in the city and Desperate Housewives sort of brought me back into favor a little bit, I guess. and that sort of carried through and then Portlandia sort of was kind of a sleeper, you know, kind of... We should shout out, you know,

38:33Kyle MacLachlan:Portlandia was on the IFC in America. I'm not sure what it was on over here, but you can easily find clips on YouTube. And this morning I had the great pleasure of watching you performing the Portland anthem. Yes. As the mayor of Portland.

38:47Louis Theroux:Yes, yes, that was a terrifying day.

38:50Kyle MacLachlan:Tell me about that.

38:51Louis Theroux:They set it up for us. It's extraordinary. So, yes, I'm the mayor of Portland. It's a sketch comedy show. Yeah, starring, yes, yes. But with recurring characters. Fred Armisen, Kerry Brownstein have a sketch comedy. Hipster Haven. Yep. Set in Portland, the mythical place of Portlandia. And Fred and Kerry play a number of different roles. I am consistently playing the mayor. I'm not in every episode. I've come in and, you know, I have a few episodes. And they have a cast of eccentric characters. And it is a sort of sketch, skit kind of improv, a lot of improv. Is it? In fact, that first season, which is when I think I did the song, I think it was the first season or maybe the second season, the director, Jonathan Kreisel, had said, you're going to sing.

39:33Louis Theroux:We were in the mayor's office. You're going to sing a song here to Portland. We're going to sing a song. And I said, OK, that's great. Do you have, is there music? And he said, yes, yes, yes. I got you the music. So he finally got me the music, which I was listening to, which is sort of a symphonic kind of thing. It wasn't really any. I said, there's no melody here. But I was like, okay, well, something like that. When they give me the words, then I'll figure it out. And I kept asking for the words. And finally, Jonathan said, no, there's no words. You're going to have to make it up. And I said, you want me to improv a song to Portland with this music?

40:04Louis Theroux:Just, you know, just as it was rhetorical. And he said, yes, yes, he said. And I said, and he turned away and tried to walk away. And I was like, Jonathan. And he turned back and says, ah, he said, make it a love letter to Portland. And so that's what I grabbed onto. That's all I had. And I said, a love letter, Portland. Okay, okay. And go. And scene. So the music starts, and I didn't know what to do. I just said, for some reason in my head, I said, William Shatner. Channel your inner William Shatner. And I do a very bad sort of, Spock, Bones, I need more, more. So I do this, and the physicality of that, and you can kind of see as I'm singing, and I thought, I'll just do Shatner.

40:45Louis Theroux:What would Shatner do in this moment? And so, Portland, you know, he would be fearless. And he would be so self-involved and so confident. And so I just said, okay. And I just said, I don't know. Whatever comes to mind you're going to say, you know, something about a cigarette and this and whatever I say, goodnight to you.

41:03Kyle MacLachlan:You're still talking about the birds, the frogs.

41:05Louis Theroux:Yes, I did. It was literally just stream of conscious. And I was like, but the goal ultimately was try to make Fred and Carrie laugh, to try to make them break. And I think I came close. They were very tough. Oh, that's too good. There you go. That's the inside scoop.

41:22Kyle MacLachlan:You mentioned it earlier, was this feeling that in some ways your connection with Lynch was the best thing that could have happened. And in other ways, it felt at times like it was limiting or it put its mark on you in a way that denied that.

41:38Louis Theroux:I think that was, yeah, but I don't know how that may have been coming from me, honestly, and from some of the reactions that I was getting from. you know from Hollywood as we talk about and some of the things that were available to me at the time and the things that were coming to me and I felt um like I needed to sort of push against that Showgirls was an effort to push against that um and then at a certain point in time in your life in one's life in my life you realize stop the career is going to be what the career is going to be and you know follow your passion follow what you believe in follow what you want to do and there were opportunities that came and I just embraced it.

42:19Kyle MacLachlan:You did an interview with David Duchovny who has a podcast. Everyone has a podcast. Everyone's got a podcast now. You're not alone. There's a lot of competition. You're doing pretty good. You said people weren't interested. Audition was the only way. It was all of that and I responded by being cavalier by saying fuck it. Letting inspiration carry the day. It was a bad attitude to her. Yes. Yes. What is that?

42:46Louis Theroux:You mean that you weren't, you basically... Oh, I think it had more to do with the rejection side. Everyone deals with rejection in a different way. And if you don't care, going in, this is self-preservation, protection mechanism, I think. And so that was some of it for sure.

43:02Kyle MacLachlan:Kind of tanking the audition?

43:05Louis Theroux:Well, just, yeah, or just sort of relying on, you know, inspiration going in and what's going to happen, which is like flying without a net, you know, which is thrilling too, but ultimately probably not sustainable. But then you came out the other side of that. I did. I did.

43:27Kyle MacLachlan:I mean, what strikes me is that as much as you feel that David Lynch, as you put it, kind of what created you or had some...

43:39Louis Theroux:Well, he certainly, yeah, he found me, gave me that first opportunity. And then after the first opportunity was not well received, came back to me for Blue Velvet a second time. And granted, we had talked about Blue Velvet while we were filming Dune, but he didn't have to come back to me, you know, especially as I had been identified with a film that didn't work. And so I was no longer that value. A lot of it had seeped away, you know. So I was like, okay, well. and there was no other opportunity to possibly change that reality. But David stayed. David stayed with me and brought me back to Blue Velvet, and that was my second film, and shortly thereafter, Twin Peaks, and he came back to me for Twin Peaks.

44:26Louis Theroux:So a lot of gratitude there.

44:29Kyle MacLachlan:Did you remain friends until the end?

44:31Louis Theroux:Yeah, we did. We did. And I would visit him at his place. Often with Laura Dern, we'd go together. We'd sit on the back. It was like a back porch area, back patio, drink coffee. Either Laura or myself or David had an assistant, then Michael would have gone to Porto's, which is a bakery in L.A., and gotten a few chocolate croissants. So we would have pastries and coffee and just talk. And also talk about future stuff, what was coming, what we could do.

45:04Kyle MacLachlan:He was mainly painting towards the end, I think. Is that right? Yes. Not prepping a movie?

45:09Louis Theroux:We were talking about something, movie or series, but the challenge was that he really couldn't leave the house easily because of the emphysema. So it would have been remote. And we were just sort of talking about it, trying to figure out how we could make it work, and we were like, both Laura and I were like, it'll work, it'll be like you're right there. You know, we can do this. But I think for him, and I don't know if this is true or not, the joy for David was being on set and feeling that space, that sacred space in front of the camera and like, you know, working that space. So it would have been different.

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48:40Kyle MacLachlan:Social media.

48:41Louis Theroux:Yes, yes. What a phenomena it is.

48:44Kyle MacLachlan:It's amazing. You're big. You've got 1.2 million followers on Instagram. Yes. You know who else has 1.2 million followers on Instagram? Louis Theroux.

48:55Louis Theroux:Well done. This guy. Well done. Well, you are my inspiration. Well, if I believed you, that would be a big compliment. But honestly, the podcast. It is because I do my podcast. You've never seen one of my podcasts before. I have. I watched with you and Michael Palin. Stop it. Yeah. And then Michael shows up at the, what show was I on? It was the one show. I heard about this. Isn't that crazy? What a legend. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. Now, that's a guest. You know, when you meet. That was a dick. Now, that's a guest. That's a guest, yeah. I got it. I got it. I'm just ignoring you now. He was, yeah, in my growing up, he was hugely important.

49:36Louis Theroux:Monty Python was big for you. Big for me, yeah. Particularly college years. Oh, my God. Yeah. You'd be probably the ideal age.

49:44Kyle MacLachlan:Born in 59, Python, the kind of heyday was the 70s, really.

49:49Louis Theroux:Yeah, it was Holy Grail, Life of Brian. Holy Grail in particular was just, to me, just a perfect film.

49:57Kyle MacLachlan:So you've been channeling your comedy side, your comedy style, in a way, in your performances on Instagram and TikTok. Yes. So one that went viral, I think it got 4.4 million views and 200 ,000 likes. You lip sync. Yes, I've done some of those, yeah. I've just found out I'm Chopped and also Unk. What hits and what doesn't hit is very, I don't know, random. You must have a, I need your social media manager. Yes, I have some very good people I work with. I had to Google what Chopped, and I think I knew what Unk was. Yeah, it's kind of old, Unk. I understood. Chopped is. Chopped is not attractive.

50:38Louis Theroux:Yeah. I thought it might mean like ripped, but it doesn't. Yeah, right. Right. Sometimes they mislead. Shredded. Shredded, yeah. But they mislead you. Chopped is not that. No. No. You're obviously connected and, yeah, the younger people are enjoying what you're doing.

50:53Kyle MacLachlan:Yeah. I wonder what that's about. They call you, there's some, is it baby girl?

50:58Louis Theroux:Well, baby girl is, if you're the center of attention, yeah. Internet dad. That's the term of endearment.

51:03Kyle MacLachlan:Do they call you internet dad? Yeah.

51:04Louis Theroux:Yeah. It's sort of fun. I didn't know. It just kind of developed. But I think part of it was, you know, I point back to my work with Lynch, you know, Twin Peaks, which still resonates with younger generations, continues to resonate with younger generations. Sex and the City, Desperate Housewives, these shows live in a different generation. How I Met Your Mother lives in a different generation. And so I'm part of this, you know what I mean? I kind of cross over. So somehow I found myself in these different dimensions. I don't know how I got here, Louis.

51:38Kyle MacLachlan:I mean, you know, nice to see you there. Thank you. And hope to be joining you. Yes. Can we touch, because you mentioned like there were times when you felt Hollywood wasn't throwing its arms around you. I mean, just this morning I read an interview with Jodie Foster. She said acting is a very cruel profession. Yeah.

52:01Louis Theroux:Well, the profession can be. The process itself is wonderful.

52:06Kyle MacLachlan:Yeah, of acting. I suppose she will have meant mainly she's thinking about when she was a child. She was a child actor. Yeah. Which is quite different. Yeah, unless you have a good help there. But the rejection, and I think there's a certain sense you're undignified in the sense that your life, your destiny is not fully in your own hands. Unless you're at that very apex of people, you're still having to go out saying like, hey what about me yeah yeah um do you feel that at all or i mean i think there is some of that

52:35Louis Theroux:for sure uh but i think that we wouldn't do it if we couldn't survive that right it's like the the need to like create and honestly it's a trade-off for me because when i'm working as on a role a character i'm in control you know i'm working with a director of course a director is ultimately in control, but I'm in control of this character, this person. So maybe I give up control for, you know, where am I going to end up, but I'm going to end up somewhere where I know that I can contribute. And I get to, now I get to be in control. Now I get to do my thing. And I think with that, and I get to be in this creative space, which is worth all of that.

53:18Louis Theroux:You know, I get to be with other actors, with a director, making something come alive. And I can't really explain to you why but it's it's essential to me i i love it i don't have to do it every day but i do have to do it and that feeds me and the other stuff is you just go through it you know the joy is what happens like in front i'm looking at your cameras here but the joy is what happens in front of the camera in that creative whatever that space is that you have there how are you with watching

53:52Kyle MacLachlan:your old movies, old performances? I don't really see me. It's funny, I had somebody else. Really? Yeah. You're not averse to it. Like, Judi Dench famously won't look at herself.

54:03Louis Theroux:Yeah. Everybody's different. I don't love it because I'm constantly thinking about things that I could have done. Right. Other choices, maybe. But then I have to just, you resign yourself to the fact that what was right at the day on that moment in that time is right. And when the editors get in there and they choose the thing and the director, They choose the thing they said. They're choosing from choices that are correct, you know. And so don't judge it. Just let it be what it's going to be. And then go do the next one, you know. And for me, the joy is the doing, not necessarily the watching of it.

54:37Kyle MacLachlan:One of your, I mean, this, we can talk as little or as much about this as you like. One of your movies was Showgirls. Yes. Which I think I saw at the time. I was living in New York. I don't have a clear, clear memory of it. I was tempted to rewatch it. That's very good. Well, okay, so let's acknowledge it became a byword for kind of a Hollywood bomb, right? It was slated by many, not everyone, but it's directed by Paul Verhoeven of Starship Troopers. But that was later, I guess. Basic Instinct, yeah. Basic Instinct and... Some wonderful work in his home. Robocop. Robocop. as well as some Dutch art films because he's a Dutch auteur director of the highest caliber.

55:24Kyle MacLachlan:Screenplay by Joe Esterhaas, who'd also written Basic Instinct. So it came with a very good pedigree. It was an 18, I guess, or a 17. So one of the things it was up against was that the audience, I think it was the widest release for a film that was age-restricted in that film.

55:42Louis Theroux:Yeah, I think it was at NC-17 at that time, I think. It was the NC.

55:46Kyle MacLachlan:Not appropriate for us in C's. Non-communicative. There we go. It communicated something to me.

55:55Louis Theroux:It did.

55:55Kyle MacLachlan:And in fact, Paul Verhoeven has said, I did everything I wanted to with the film. To me, I achieved exactly what I wanted to achieve. I'm looking at my notes because I'm kind of making it up. He said something along those lines. That sounds right. I think you were not a fan. Of the film.

56:15Louis Theroux:Well, no, I wasn't. When I saw the film, I was, I was, I didn't know what to think. I said, oh, this is awful. But as you said before, I said the pedigree going in was, looked good. So I said, here's an opportunity to play an interesting, complex, kind of light, dark character. Presents himself one way, but it's actually something else. And I thought, fun, you know, big movie. This is going to be great. Verhoeven, I love Verhoeven. I love RoboCop so much. I was like

56:47Kyle MacLachlan:I sort of missed the mark for you it didn't is it possible you were too close and if you saw it now you'd be like actually I can see it with new eyes

56:56Louis Theroux:I can see it I would be closing my eyes that's the problem really you're not gonna yeah no I'm not I'm not letting it in do you know Adam McKay is a big fan Adam McKay is a big fan I know you know who I mean yes I do the great director the writer director yeah I do think it's definitely entertainment it's definitely a film that that you know people enjoy for whatever reason which is great but i think the original intention i was like i i had signed on for something else but you know in hindsight i'm probably you know i'm naive that it was ever going to be anything else but what it turned out to be um it was a yeah it was it was a you know i survived that which is how i look at it somehow.

57:41Louis Theroux:I mean, we're laughing about it, I think. Are we laughing about it? Yeah, that's his point. I think we have to, yes.

57:46Kyle MacLachlan:But it must have been quite painful.

57:48Louis Theroux:Yeah, definitely career took a hit on that. Elizabeth, worse than anyone. You know, I got to work with the director, albeit it was not in the movie that I necessarily wanted it to be, that I admired greatly, Paul Verhoeven.

58:01Kyle MacLachlan:Did you enjoy working with him?

58:03Louis Theroux:I did. He's tough, but I did.

58:09Louis Theroux:Tough in what way? He's just, you know, he's just, he can be. Dutch people are very blunt. Yeah, I was going to say brutal. He can be brutal. But blunt is it. They're to the point. They've got that Calvinist. Yeah. No, there were moments when I just did not want to be in his eye line, eyesight, you know what I mean? Because I knew he could tell when he was ornery or he was unhappy. And then he would just sort of lash out, you know. Really? I need to make myself scarce because I do not want to be, because I'm not good at confrontation. I'm not a shout-aback at her. You know, I mean, I would just say, okay, okay, and I would just remove myself from the situation.

58:52Louis Theroux:Yeah, yeah. Life's too short. Because you're getting into an argument with someone who's not in that moment available. Right. It's a one-way street. I'm like, nope. A bit like being a parent to a teenager. You know what I mean? Yeah, you got to fight your battles. Choose your battles. Choose your battles.

59:09Kyle MacLachlan:Don't, like, don't, like, who's, it's a bit like, who's having a tantrum at this point? Is it him or me? You know what I mean? Come back here and finish. Don't you dare talk to your mother like that. Don't you dare talk to Gina Gershon like that, Paul Verhoeven.

59:23Louis Theroux:Oh, I would never. Yes, actually, yes. There was some of that, but Gina was. She could take it. Oh, she could take her herself, let me tell you. There was some, if you ever have her on the show, have her do her Verhoeven impersonation and then talk you through, like, a confrontation. Really? Oh, she's amazing. Can you do a Verhoeven? I don't think. I kind of blocked it out, actually. Koppedomer. Yeah. Bofiturus.

59:46Kyle MacLachlan:I'm just saying Dutch words. That's good. I don't know any Dutch words. Tulip. Is that really? Is that definitely a Dutch word?

59:54Louis Theroux:I don't think so.

59:55Kyle MacLachlan:Lynch would never have been like that. Lynch. Look at me, Lynch. Yes. David Lynch would never have been like that.

1:00:00Louis Theroux:No, he was not like that.

1:00:01Kyle MacLachlan:My cousin. Am I name dropping? My cousin, Justin Theroux.

1:00:05Louis Theroux:Who is a lovely person. Was in Fallout. He's so good in this. I've always admired his work. A compliment to him means nothing to me. Just putting that out there. Okay, so he's just terrible.

1:00:20Kyle MacLachlan:As opposed to you. Well, no, I feel bad. He says Thoreau. I say Theroux. That's not very relevant. But yes. What is the proper? Well, Theroux. Theroux. Because it's a roux. It's French, like a roux sauce. Yes, Theroux. Or what's another? The French OUX in French. But anyway, I'm not going to make a big thing out of it. But he also, as you probably know. Are you close? Yeah, I saw him on Sunday night. Oh, beautiful. Okay. Yeah. And I was living in New York in the 90s and he's a New Yorker. And so I would see him quite a bit. And I remember when he was taken up by David and he had stories about working with David Lynch.

1:00:57Kyle MacLachlan:And he's like, he's the nicest guy. And he'd talk about he'd arrive and be wearing a pair of glasses. and David Lynch would say, oh, that's great. I love that. That's perfect. That's perfect. We can use that. And he'd just pick up random things that Justin had done and incorporate them into the character. Yeah, that's David. But one of the things he said was, and you can take this for what it's worth, he's like, it's almost like when he was on set, it was almost like he was performing the role of a director. So, for example, he'd have a megaphone. Yes. Okay, let's go for a take and action.

1:01:29Louis Theroux:Yeah. Did he use a megaphone with you? Well, not during Blue Velvet and not during Twin Peaks, the first Twin Peaks. But when we came back to The Return, which was in like, when was that, 2015, 16, 17, somewhere in there? Yes, he was using it. And I think part of it was just ease because he wouldn't have to shout. Right. So he'd be in his chair. When we did Blue Velvet, he was right next to the camera. We didn't have monitors during Blue Velvet. And he would watch the scene right next to the camera. So he would say, you know, he'd say, Kale, all right, now lean in and just tweak her nose. And I would be, as a character, I mean, the camera's still rolling.

1:02:12Louis Theroux:I'm just going, I just tweaked her nose. And he would laugh. And the whole point was, like, who, like, would ruin a take because he would laugh. And that's what would happen. Yeah, yeah. But it was intentional because he just couldn't help himself. He so enjoyed and so loved that space, that creative space in front of the camera but he wanted to be as close to it as possible to the point where he is Gordon Cole in Twin Peaks. He wrote himself into the show because he wanted to be part of the world of Twin Peaks. Amazing.

1:02:41Kyle MacLachlan:One of Justin's things was he was in Inland Empire. He was on Mulholland Drive. Mulholland Drive and Blue Velvet are probably, many would consider the two, I mean, this is controversial, venturing an opinion, but I think probably many would consider the two best. Yes. Not to say the others aren't brilliant. Maybe a little more accessible.

1:03:00Louis Theroux:perhaps, but in terms of just story, but yeah, I agree with you.

1:03:05Kyle MacLachlan:Justin was saying that when he made Inland Empire, which is shot on a PD-150, a very small video camera, that David would lean in and be telling them lines. Now you say, I'm going to the gym. And because it's a PD-150 and it's a very wide lens, he was practically bumping their

1:03:24Louis Theroux:faces, and they

1:03:26Kyle MacLachlan:couldn't stop giggling. It was so ridiculous. His face, right now you say, is that Jim with a J or Jim with a G? Giving them light, it wasn't even written down. No, just coming out of his mind

1:03:37Louis Theroux:is what he wanted to see at that moment. Just some surreal. He never did anything like that with you, right? He had written the parts. Yeah, he'd written the parts. You know, he would talk me through stuff, like especially as Dougie in The Return, he would talk me through, you know, now stand here and just look over there, you know, okay? And so I would do that as Dougie. And then 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, and I'm kind of going, how long am I going to do this? You know what I mean? And I start to get kind of nervous. And then he'd be, okay, that's great, Cale. That's great. Okay, a little more, a little more.

1:04:13Louis Theroux:And it was an exercise, I said, in courage, because you have to believe what you're doing in front of the camera is actually interesting. And I'm like, how can this possibly be interesting? Because then, of course, he puts it together, and it's beautiful, it's wonderful. But I was like, at the time, I was like, oh, boy. but he would talk me through stuff which was really, that was fun How's your energy? We should talk about Fallout Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that, it's good we just came from a day of press but I'm pretty good I'm holding on

1:04:42Kyle MacLachlan:I mean it's actually an ensemble piece really isn't it? I mean you're there

1:04:46Louis Theroux:Yes, I mean there's three main characters, Walton Goggins, Aaron Moten and Ella Pernell and my my role is as Ella's character, Lucy, her father, Hank. And kind of my story sort of sets in motion her journey. But there's, you know, so many threads through this and so many ways the characters connect that we reveal during the course of the first season and then into the second season. But it's, you know, it's based on the world of a video game, which is very complex, very rich, very well thought out, well structured. And they've put this story in the world of these people. And it's remarkably compelling.

1:05:35Louis Theroux:It's amazing, actually.

1:05:37Kyle MacLachlan:What strikes me, though, is it's part of this movement towards adapting video games. And that can yield extraordinary results. It's like we had Bella Ramsey on the show, the star of The Last of Us. The Last of Us, yeah. Which was a terrific zombie apocalypse film. This is an apocalypse film. But I'm also struck, though, that when you have a fan base that's very invested, that can be tough because they have opinions, which they're not shy about voicing.

1:06:10Louis Theroux:Yeah.

1:06:11Kyle MacLachlan:Possibly you're not as exposed to that as someone like Bella was. but to what extent were you aware of treading on terrain that meant a lot to...

1:06:22Louis Theroux:Oh, I think we were all very aware. When it was announced and during the filming, there was real hesitation and stronger than that from the fans because they wanted to be considered and I think we all agreed that was important.

1:06:39Kyle MacLachlan:Hesitation about the idea of an adaptation?

1:06:42Louis Theroux:That it would be, that the end result would not honor the game. Because at the end of the day, the game is the most important. To them. To them. But to the writers as well, because they all played the game as well. And they recognized that if we are going to do this show, then, and I think they recognized two things. One is that the show, the environment of the show, of the game, I should say, is an incredibly rich one and full of all sorts of possibilities. and to set a story within this already highly complex, complicated world is perfect because there's just so many ways, places that the characters can go.

1:07:19Louis Theroux:So this was number one priority. They were intent on creating this world and making it as close to the Fallout world as possible and a big part of that was the tone because the tone of the show is, you've watched a little bit of it, it's a very violent, ultra-violent and yet at the same time darkly funny. And then they're running music. The music cues, again, throw it into another different space. So it's just very discombobulating, but ultimately really entertaining and funny. But I feel like the fan base, when it came out, I think by and large, for the most part, was like, oh my God, this is great.

1:07:58Louis Theroux:They put their stamp of approval on it. Not everyone, I'm sure, but the majority of people were excited about the show. And the season two is even further than that. I mean, they've gone very deep, and it's all about the lore of the game. That's the most important.

1:08:13Kyle MacLachlan:And it's huge. I mean, I'm not just blowing smoke, as they say. It's been a huge hit in America, hasn't it? Millions and millions.

1:08:21Louis Theroux:Yeah, around the world, actually. We're on a world tour, so our group is here in the UK now. We're going to go to Tokyo. Some Splinter group is going to Rio tonight. And they were also in Sydney. and so Amazon is very much behind it and it's exciting. You're enjoying it? Very much so.

1:08:41Kyle MacLachlan:Such a pleasure to have you, Kyle. Louis, thank you. You're welcome anytime. Keep your hands off my wife. Do my best. She's a beautiful woman. I'm sure she is. She's hard to resist.

1:08:54Louis Theroux:Does that sound weird? We're getting into Lynch territory again. Yes.

1:09:11Kyle MacLachlan:Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that. Look, let's deal with the elephant in the room first, which is the Nancy factor. Hands off. What did I say? Like, try and keep your hands off my wife. And he gave the perfect answer, which was, I'll try. If he'd said like that shouldn't be a problem That would be like an insult If he'd said of course That would have been okay But I'll try is perfect Because it suggests that Nancy's charms are so evident That it would be difficult for him to resist them Perfect Miss Manners could not have done any better Nancy we spent a long time Nancy and I did like trying to dig out her diaries.

1:10:01Kyle MacLachlan:It was one of those cases we went into the loft and there were a lot of boxes. It's like, it's not in this one, it's not in this one. We found them. Relax, we found them. I'm not going to, there are several pages. I love Kyle MacLachlan, capitals bolded. She was 15 when she wrote this. Yes, yet another of my distant crushes. How many were there? I'm not going to read much of this. Nancy's freaking out at this point. Who is Kyle MacLachlan, you might say? This was around the time of Twin Peaks, so it was peak McLaughlin mania. I reply, only the most handsome, witty, kind, brackets, question mark, gentle, exclamation mark, question mark, being in the world.

1:10:45Kyle MacLachlan:It raises questions about Nancy's, I wouldn't say like Nancy's judgment of men. What 15-year-old Nancy was looking for? Someone nice, quirky, witty. I said witty, kind. But look, what we're all thinking is like, where does Louis fit in that iteration, right? I'm happy with all of that. Very sweet. And I guess the main thing is I'm glad we could put that to bed. And what a charming guy. Like you can, he still has whatever that energy is. And, you know, look, if I could make it about the work, that's what Kyle brings is this sort of sense of almost supernatural suavete. You know, in the sense like it sort of transcends.

1:11:30Kyle MacLachlan:It's almost surreal quality. And I didn't express it very well in the chat, but there's a sense in which there's a metanous to some of his acting. Like he seems to be commenting on the acting process. He mentioned that it was a Pauline Kael review in The New Yorker that turned around the fortunes of Blue Velvet. that her review, and I dug out the review, and she sings his praises. Blue Velvet is a comedy, she wrote, yet it puts us, or at least some of us, in an erotic trance. The movie keeps ribbing the clean-cut Jeffrey, Kyle MacLachlan, yet we're caught up in his imagination.

1:12:17Kyle MacLachlan:It was nice to be able to bring out, it's not even an impression, but my attempt to do Frank as played by Dennis Hopper, Kyle started doing the photographer from Apocalypse Now. He's a, I'm a little man. I'm a little, he's a great man. It's worth finding. We'll link to that on YouTube. You know, the central, if is the central two letters of life, man. I think anytime, you know, in Frank he's doing, he's like, I don't want to shut up. Like where he's kind of interacting with himself and it made me think of like Gollum. He wants to hurt us. Milly doesn't like Master. He wants to hurt us. No, Master's kind, Master.

1:13:01Kyle MacLachlan:Master's nice. Like where he's in a dialogue. There's kind of, that's an amazing, I think I did that pretty well. That was good, says Millie. We'll stop there. Where someone's in, one of my favourite examples of that is in the film M with Fritz Lang. Have you ever seen that? It's Fritz Lang is the director and Peter Lorre plays a child murderer and he talks about the impulse to murder children. And it's in German, I think, which I don't even speak German. Nevertheless, he goes,

1:13:37Kyle MacLachlan:He's in conflict. Like he mustn't do it, but he has to do it. Millie's not even paying attention. Not as good.

1:13:48Kyle MacLachlan:And I had a friend who talked about when we lived in Brooklyn, he said there was a guy who used to jog around Prospect Park. I don't know why, I think he was an ex-military guy. And he said he was like he was a local character. And people would say, as he jogged past, you'd hear him go like, I don't want to go on, I've had enough. Shut up, you little puke. Keep going. I don't want to, I'm tired. Shut up and keep going, you little puke. and it's that thing of like that's another great right example do i ever do that no not really sometimes when i'm doing a joe hicks i would be going like um like that do you know it's sort of horrible when you're really tired and you want to stop you're doing like 20 whatever burpees but i don't think i would go like shut up shut up and keep going.

1:14:41Kyle MacLachlan:In an American accent, it makes more sense anyway. Come on, Louis. You can do it, Louis. No, it doesn't work. I think there were some talking points to do with Paul Verhoeven. Kudos to Kyle for being candid about the issues that came up. It sounded like it was a difficult experience. He said, I survived that, meaning Showgirls, which is how I look at it. Somehow, definitely my career took a hit. If I was a serious podcaster, I would have actually re-watched Showgirls. I only remember one thing from it. It's a Joe Estaha script, and there's a bit in it where one of them, maybe Kyle, is assessing Elizabeth Berkeley's prospects.

1:15:32Kyle MacLachlan:Something like Her stagecraft is all over the place, and her legs have no discipline, and frankly, her movement is terrible. But she's got it. It's that kind of reversal thing where you see what they did there? It's like my podcasting. He's rambling, and he can't remember his questions, and he does terrible impressions. But he's got it.

1:16:06Credits?

1:16:11Kyle MacLachlan:That's it for today. Please do join me next week for another episode. For now, here are the credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The researcher was Mark Morne. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

1:16:40Kyle MacLachlan:This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business. Because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website, to marketing, to product descriptions, to sales.

1:17:22Kyle MacLachlan:The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S.