S7 EP8: Yorgos Lanthimos discusses working with Emma Stone, suffering for his art, and directing a Bourne movie

29:53Hollywood came calling and they offered him, dude, where's my car too? And what happened? He passed. But it's funny how you go into a different table in the casino. How much are these chips worth? I think there is something interesting in that if you have the guts to do it. Yes. Like if you go like, you know what, I'll try this. Yeah, but then do you remember when the guy who made The Lives of Others, I can't remember his name, that terrific German film, went to Hollywood. Do you remember what he made? Yeah, but that's not the same thing. Go on. He made The Tourist for people who were interested in the punchline.

30:32I don't think that The Lives of Others was in a way such a different film. Not to The Tourist, just don't get me wrong. But I don't think it was Ty Ming Yang doing The Tourist, is what I'm saying. Like his film was like, you know, a successful popular film that, yeah, was, as they say, narrative. And, you know, I think it ticked a lot of the boxes. But even that. I do love that film. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But and obviously when he made The Tourist, like he didn't have any control over it. The studios had. And that's what I realized. Did you see The Tourist? I mean, we're saying it like it's terrible, but it might be.

31:16It didn't do very well. No, but the people themselves that made kind of say it's terrible. But I think that's what I realized when I flirted with the idea that you actually don't have any control. Like they want to kind of have you there as the new thing and say, oh, this guy is doing this, but like they want to actually do it. So I realized it's not for me and I just want to keep making the films that I want to make and have, you know, as much control as I can, which I'm very lucky to have achieved. Like, I haven't made any film that I didn't have, you know, total creative freedom. Even that's hard to bear.

32:02I mean, people that, you know, do difficult jobs hear that and say, like, oh, really? I was going to say making films is difficult, but... Try taking out someone's appendix. Exactly. Yeah. What would be a better example? Try. No, but that's like really hard. Like be, you know, like someone who cleans people's houses. I think that's brutal. And we're saying, oh, we're making films. It's so difficult. And but it kind of it's weird that it is. And it does it does affect us like deeply and profoundly. And it's the narrative that we built for ourselves and, you know, what we consider important and all that.

32:44But anyway, it's hard for me because I've chosen to do this and this is all I have and it's life itself in a way. So although it might seem ridiculous to someone on the outside, I still do suffer making films, but not in the real world though. Of course, that doesn't surprise me. And it's obviously not suffering in a conventional physical sense. It's a kind of feeling of responsibility. And you've been given an opportunity and not many people are in your position and you don't want to fuck it up. And you don't really have many people you can blame because to a great extent you're a captain of your own destiny.

33:32No, no, and I've chosen that. Like I said, I have complete creative freedom. So, yeah, it's all my fault. If it's going south. Yeah, it's just me. is my inability to do whatever I needed to do. What was your most... Because you've talked in the past about how stressful you find it, how in some respects it's quite an unhappy... Emma Stone said, he's really miserable while we're filming. You said, yeah, it's insane, it's immense. Then the question was, and it hasn't gone away over time? Stone, it's gotten worse. Lanthimos, you try to rationalise it. Why are you so upset? This is a movie. Of course, when you compare it with other things that are happening in the world, it's ridiculous.

34:13But for you in that moment, it's everything. It's gotten worse. Was begonia the most stressful, would you say? I think so. But that might have to do something with the fact that I kind of made three films back to back without taking a break in between. You did poor things, kinds of kindness and begonia. You're very productive. Yeah. And not only that, they're all outstanding. Thank you. I think so. My opinion means nothing. Well, it means something to me. Well, I mean, less now that you didn't know most of the filmmakers that I've mentioned. It's true. You might just be ripping them off. I'd see those and be like, he's just taking it all from...

34:55If I make up a name, it'll sound like I'm being racist, so I won't do that. Begonia, it's about two guys, a guy and his cousin. The guy's played by Jesse Plemons, a tremendous actor who you've been working with a lot. and his brother, played by a neurodivergent... Cousin. What did I say? Brother. But you said cousin, I think, in the beginning. Yeah, and his cousin, but they've got a brotherly relationship. They do. They kidnap... This isn't a spoiler, I don't think. The character played by Emma Stone. No, it was very early on. And she's a girl boss. I know that's a weird term, but that's sort of how it feels.

35:31She's got Sheryl Sandberg, the Facebook executive energy. she's like an Ubermensch or Silicon Valley tech sort. In fact, she works in the pharmaceutical business. And she's almost oddly composed, even the act of being abducted. Like a lot of Yorgos Lanthimos films, a lot of times you're second-guessing the reactions. No one's behaving exactly as you think they might, and so you're a little off balance, which partly prevents them from feeling like victim narratives. It would be easy to make trauma porn with these kinds of plot setups. Do you know what I mean? Oh, look, that person's being horrific to that person and when are they going to escape?

36:12It's much more finely grained than that. She seems at times more in control than he does. Would you agree with everything I've just said? Everything. It feels like I'm a lawyer now. Nevertheless, on the night in question, one of the things in my head was like as someone who's made documentaries about conspiracy theories so the Jesse Plemons character has gone deep into the internet and he believes various conspiracy theories he thinks Emma Stone is an alien he does and so I'm watching thinking this relates to things I've been curious about so the first question I have is how interested are you in real versions of the things that take place in your films like do you research that?

36:53I know you didn't write Begonia but nevertheless less? I research if I think there's benefit to it. On this one, for example, I felt that, well, first of all, the screenplay that Will Tracy wrote was, you know, already brilliant. It was a fully developed piece of work. Yeah, because Ari Aster developed it with Lars Knudsen, their company, and they... Ari Aster, who directed Midsommar and Hereditary. Okay. Is that right? Yes. I'm just helping the people. We've got people. It's not just you and me here. And Eddington, the latest one. Always Afraid. Always Afraid with Joaquin Phoenix. Yes, Joaquin Phoenix, great films.

37:36So they thought that I might be interested in it. Why didn't Ari Aster want to direct it? I know. I don't really know. I think he just was interested in other things. Someone said that he wishes he directed it now. Yeah. Is that true? Maybe I said that as a joke. I think you did. I definitely have said that to him. Have you? Does he agree? He gets the joke. Right. I don't know if it's true. There's probably some truth to it. Yeah. But because he was interested in it from the beginning because he really loved the original film. I hadn't watched it. Save the Green Planet. Yeah. It's a Korean film.

38:12Korean film. I didn't know of the film. So he was a fan. So that's how he got involved. So maybe he thought that as a fan, he didn't want to make that film, but he thought it was a good idea the premise of it and the concept of it like to be transported to modern-day america um so they thought i might be interested so i and i was and i worked with will tracy a little bit on the script to just make it more you know my own will tracy you had been a writer on succession he's been a writer in succession yeah uh a great writer so there was so much already there and i kind of didn't want to go like, oh, but there's this thing in real life and should we make it more like this?

38:53And like I felt reading it that it was like really strong and I just concentrated on other stuff that, you know, I knew that I would do differently instead of like researching what the reality around it is. So when you say you concentrate on the things that you can bring to the project, what is that? What is that? I don't know exactly. It's very instinctive. Like there were like great characters, great dialogue, great premise. Maybe structurally I do things differently. Or, you know, even casting Aiden, who's autistic. Like it wasn't written as an autistic person. But I felt that it should be in a way.

39:45And it would make more sense. the whole thing would make more sense and it would be richer. And, you know, parts of the comedy of it or, you know, like his background with his mother and those kind of like dream or flashback sequences instead of like being expositional about it and just, you know, things here and there, yeah, that I do differently. But again, it was a great script from the beginning just to be fair.

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43:07Do you read your reviews? No. Don't you? No. I might read some of the bad ones. Because they do send the reviews, and I see the email, and I go very quickly down the links. And if I see something really bad, I might click on it and see. Why? It just interests me to see. you know well first of all if there's some something truthful in it and then may I learn something and then you know like where is it coming from I'm interested to see and a lot of the times it's just like people just wanted a different film but it's like they didn't make it so they're getting this one but they wanted it to be different it's not about you know how good it is or it's about it should have been another way so i find that interesting to read because you know reviews that praise the work i don't have much to gain from and it makes me feel uncomfortable i get that i mean it can confirm you in things like oh it's working i'm not alone yeah but you get you get a sense of that anyway like because films are especially you know the films i've been making the last few years like they're widely released you get a sense of whether it's working or not and you know talking to other people like and if you start promoting the film and then if you get into that whole awards kind of season thing you know you speak to other people you get a sense of you know how the film is doing you don't have to like read someone's specific view of what the film is and what it means to them and um i also don't love the analysis of what it is that i do because it kind of ruins it for me i like just not knowing and working as i said before like instinctively like instead of saying like what you've been doing today basically i know i was gonna i you know what i i try not to take offense no that's right criticism is heard no but like it's it's hard for me to actually try and understand it that's why you know i usually just agree with right so all the time you said you've got it you were basically just agreeing no no i genuinely think that i haven't figured out how you do what you do but i do think what i have to get out is that you can't interrogate the mystery too much and just as in the films um you're more interested in the how than the why in certain respects that sort of the the mechanisms and the ways the rationalizations and the shifts in power as opposed to what's behind all this i think in a weird way i think i take that from the filmmaking process a bit like there isn't a kind of universal solution like there isn't necessarily a unitary meaning you exist as a viewer within the tensions and if i can make this about me even more than it already is like i do try to when i'm making a documentary rather than say like what's the meaning or what's the takeaway i find it easier to talk about tensions there's a tension between the urge to be tolerant and humane towards even predatory people like pedophiles while also taking a sufficient account of the seriousness of their crimes.

46:50How do you balance those two moral imperatives? There isn't really an answer. No. And that's the beauty of it, like of what we do. Like you, you know, offer these things to people and then they make what they want with it. Like it's impossible to control. Like that's the weird thing about it. Like, because you have to make so many decisions making something, either a documentary or a narrative film. You make so many decisions thinking that you have some kind of control. They're going to say these things, they're going to be in this house, there's going to be this music. And you think that you have this control in creating this work that you hope will have some kind of impact.

47:37But like in reality, imagine how, what we were saying before, like how different people are and how they're going to perceive it in different ways. And you have to be able to just let that go and say, yeah, people are going to, you know, think different things about it. And that's why I also said like before, like I agree because nothing is wrong. There's no version of what you think about, well there might there might be some extreme ones but like that but you can't say like you're wrong thinking you know this part is funny and this isn't you're not wrong like you have a different sense of humor you have a different experience in life or a different understanding of situations or tensions are you as you say and it might be something personal that you recognize that makes you experience in a different way so it's like you have to kind of let go one of the things that your films also often are marked by, distinguished by his amazing performances, most recently by Emma Stone and Jesse Plemons in the past, also Willem Dafoe, Olivia Colman, Colin Farrell, many others.

48:44And yet it's also been said by them that you don't say that much. And they say they'll come to you and say, like, why am I doing this? Like, why have I decided to hack out my own liver? And you don't... That's a reference. Spoiler. or cut off my own finger. Why? And then you say it's not about why. Yeah. That's why I keep working with Emma because she doesn't ask those questions anymore. She stopped doing that. She stopped doing that. No, they all get it, I think, eventually. But I understand the urge of an actor to have a little bit more information. But I think it's more beneficial for everyone if we don't analyze things too much.

49:28And, you know, I try to work with people that I trust a lot. And that also is the same for people behind the camera, but also the actors, that I know they'll bring something that is hopefully surprising and something that I didn't necessarily expect. But, yeah, no, I've been lucky that I try to make sure that, But, you know, like I, the actors that I work with have a sense of what it is, you know, my work. And, you know, they appreciate it in a certain way. And then I think also to get along as people, like just how communication is and how the interaction is. And then I think then it becomes easy to just, you know, trust them and they trust you.

50:21and also the benefit, of course, of working multiple times with them is that, you know, you build trust more and more. But I think it's, well, the reason to get back to that, that I don't like to say too much to them or explain too much is because, like, I have an explanation, but they might have an explanation that's more interesting. Also, you know, it allows me to have a distance when I see, when I observe what it is that they're doing and what they're bringing. And that allows me to see if maybe it's not working. Because if it's something that we both have agreed on, then you kind of tend to think that's the correct thing and you kind of tend to even see that, that you agreed even if it doesn't exist.

51:08So I prefer to not know what it is that they're thinking. And then they bring it. and if I go like, that doesn't look right, I can tell them. But if it is, it's great because, you know, you didn't necessarily expect that or it is what you expected and they're doing it, you know, they're making it even greater. So that's the reason. It's not like some kind of punitive process of... It's just like I think it's beneficial for them as well. And I think they get it. Like with Amite was naturally like that from the beginning and that's why we get along so well. Did she say that you sometimes do line reads of bad line reads?

51:48Yeah. Now I love to do that even more. When she said that it annoys her. That's a cadence you don't like. Yeah, or something physical. I just try to imitate her and go like, don't do it like this. And she goes like, okay, you don't have to do it. I get it. It's a big no-no, isn't it, doing line reads? Someone told me that once. yeah well why because like it's insulting or i guess it's insulting the other thing is like it's reductive like it's yeah then you have to like mimic the other person like doing sometimes i watch films not yours but you think i think you've got that line wrong like i think you're emphasizing the wrong word you know what i mean yeah and it's often you think like why didn't the director just say no just say you can't handle the truth you know what i mean i know what you mean imagine saying that to jack nicholson yeah i think he got that one it's good he gets it right most of the time yeah that's the thing like i think intelligent talented actors do not get the line wrong right it's just about finding the nuances and the diversity of what that can be and you know try and capture that and then be able to play around with that during the editing so that you can you know sculpt their performances and uh but yeah i just love i didn't start out like that i got i just love finding people that i can trust and i feel like they bring much more than i could have imagined uh i think i started out thinking like i have to control everything and i am the one who knows best about everything and you know by working with people multiple times and trusting them and i i realized that it's so much better to just um you know get ideas from everyone and then you know just have the confidence to uh sort them out and understand what's beneficial for the for the end result and what isn't um so yeah i just love giving them the freedom as well no it's not like withholding information just to tease them or anything.

54:02It's just like giving them, I see it as giving them more freedom to come up with their own ideas about the character or the scene or what that is. Do you have a sense of what, what separates the really good actors from the not so good actors? Is this like, because I'm such a terror, I can't act. Please don't ask me to be in one of your films. I was going to write as soon as we finished. I know you were thinking it. Yeah. You can see it in my eyes. How do they, you know, I'm always mystified. And I even said, because we had Florence Pugh on the podcast. I will tell you if you get a line wrong. Would you?

54:39I will tell you. Yeah, because you're famous for that. Stress. That word. What do they do? No, you said you are famous for that. You are famous for that. You can't handle the truth. You've obviously got an eye for actors. You know, you work with great actors. You get great performances out of them. What do actors do? How do they do that? I don't know how they do it. It's incredible. You know, a good sign for me is like when they're in a terrible film and they're still decent within a terrible film, I think that they have a quality that shines through anything. So that's something to look out for, I think.

55:23Do you watch many terrible films? I mean, inadvertently. Do you stay across what Hollywood is doing? I try as much as, you know. Is there something you can learn? I mean, learn or like... Learn. I'm curious about the state of things. You know how Tarantino will see anything? Yeah, and say anything. What do you think about that? For people who don't know... Well, we're not criticizing him about speaking too much and then say something about him. That's as far as I'll say. I mean like that, but he famously in the last couple of days has said of Paul, is it Dano? Dano, I think. Paul Dano, who's a terrific actor, who's in There Will Be Blood and what was he, another one I saw called Prisoners.

56:10Prisoners, yeah. And for some reason... He's directed films as well. Quentin Tarantino decided to publicly criticise him. Yeah. Well, we don't have to. No, we don't have to pile on that. We know Paul Dano's a great actor. Oh, there goes that clickbait. Thanks very much.

56:32How's the internet? We've got to feed the internet. Feed the internet. The internet is hungry. But everybody's defended Paul Dano. He doesn't need defending because, you know, that's just something someone said. But my point was, before you got down a clickbait side passage, was Quentin Tarantino... You brought it up, not me. Well, I mean, you brought up Quentin Tarantino. So he famously, he's like, I'll go and see. He said something, you know, he's a fan of just movies. And he'll go and see and whatever comes out. You know what I mean? Yeah. Are you like that? No. Would you go see like a Marvel film?

57:13I think you don't have kids. Is that right? No, I don't. No. So there's no reason for me to do that. Did you watch the Minecraft movie? No. I don't know what that is. You don't know what it is? No. That was the number two box office film of the year, I believe. I'm not their audience, I guess. Wow. Number one was a Chinese film that I didn't recognize. You might have known what it was. I'm not going to go down all the list of the hit films. No, but yeah, I mean, I do watch films. Marvel? Marvel, I mean, if one of them kind of intrigues me for some reason. What's the most recent superhero film you saw?

57:51That has intrigued me.

57:57I don't know tell me something well there was a Superman reboot didn't see that Lego Batman I saw the previous Superman Lego Batman Lego Batman no it's funny the previous Superman was which one there's been so many there's like the in between yeah they keep rebooting it there was that film which I I just couldn't believe what I was saying because like he was like saving I think it was New York City and like he was throwing people like on buildings and the buildings would be destroyed so I was thinking like he's killing way more people than the bad guy would by just destroying all these buildings and collapsing it's like they always say about the Death Star right there was a lot of probably cleaners on the Death Star do you know what I mean just non-partisan non-ideological support staff and then they blow up the Death Star and we're all like yeah, tens of thousands of people yeah, so I don't know, I'll go watch something that Spider-Man?

59:09It's been a while Would you have watched the original reboot which was the, not Brian De Palma who was it? Sam Raimi I think I watched that, yeah, with Tobey Maguire. And Willem Dafoe, your friend. And Willem Dafoe, my friend. Willem is in everything. Tell him that. I'm sure he'd appreciate the compliment. No, I'd tell him this. But he loves working. Like, that's someone you love having on set. Like, he loves working. Apparently, I interviewed him as well. Yeah. And he was like, yeah, I love making the movies. And then he didn't literally say this, but it was along the lines of, yeah, but when they come out, I'm not that interested.

59:50Yeah, I listened to that, yeah. Did you? Yeah, so he's not... I think you insulted him at one point. Maybe I did. What was it that I said? I don't remember, but it was funny. It was funny to hear that. I was aware that I felt like... I also loved Abramovich pounding you. Did you like that? That sounds sexual. Well. For people who don't know, Marina Abramovich was a recent guest of the podcast, arguably the most famous performance artist now living. She didn't pound me exactly. She was playfully... I enjoyed her. I enjoyed it. She's feisty. She's feisty, yeah. I like that. Are there mainstream Hollywood directors that you watch out for and you find interesting?

1:00:39Or mainstream? Well, define mainstream. You say mainstream in Hollywood. Forget mainstream. It's like really complex, the issue. Like is Paul Thomas Anderson a mainstream Hollywood? Forget mainstream. Yeah, of course. Paul Thomas Anderson. That's great, yeah. But I love talking more about like, you know, Kelly Reinhart and people like that that I find, you know, well, not enough people, you know, know their films. She's got a new film out. She's got the masterminds, yeah. Like brilliant. I don't know. I don't really know who... I don't know her work. See, even you Even, I love the even Has she made many films?

1:01:18She's made quite a few, yeah Did you like, what was it called? What was the one about the sex worker? Anora Anora, yeah Was that up your alley? Yeah, it was, yeah, fun Yeah I'm not going to become Quentin Tarantino I didn't, that wasn't We lost everyone with Kelly Reinhardt, right? I don't know what to do with Kelly Reinhardt. Yes, I'll give you something else. I gave you Paul Thomas Anderson, but he doesn't need it because he's so popular right now. I watch Spielberg movies and I watch Scorsese and, you know, of course. You know, I feel like I'm on the edge of... Losing everyone? No, not at all, actually.

1:02:05Ari Aster, we already mentioned. The Safdie brothers you've talked about. The Safdie brothers, they're my friends. we we grew up together no we didn't grow up together but we met during dogtooth actually we they had their film daddy long legs and we met at festivals yeah yeah it's great and yeah we became friends Nicolas Cage no oh you're talking about the latest one long legs Jesus Christ you're so illiterate why am I even here um there's another no Daddy Long Legs it was 2009 the Safdies are maybe though you know Uncut Gems of course I've seen Uncut Gems and Good Time and now they they have both made uh individual films that they directed Marty Supreme is one that Joss Safdie did is that good yeah oh well I haven't seen it but people say it's good and Ben Safti did uh oh oh Ben I'm sorry I'll remember in a second uh the smashing machine uh with the rock uh so they've both made films yeah they're great uh let's arrive somewhere I mean I feel I don't want to peel the layers away so you should and I have a bad habit of doing that but I know okay I'll say this so you grew up you were you're an only child your dad wasn't in the picture for a lot of it yeah your mum died when you were 17 yeah and you never really reconciled as far as i were with your dad or in so far as that term is appropriate it's not as though you became massively close with your dad after that no no i would like see him every now and then but like yeah we're never very close now do you think you have a suspicion of family life i guess so i mean i do have a very particular view and experience about it maybe that's part of how you know we started something like dog tooth for example um maybe yeah the reason i don't want to have kids maybe you don't want to really yeah but also you know the state of the world doesn't really encourage do you feel gloomy about the state of the world it's yeah it's something that i'm like trying to um i'm wrestling with because yeah everything points to that but then how useful is to just say that and And, you know, whatever is left of it, what do you do with it?

1:04:46What's top of your list in terms of threats that you see? Because there's quite a few to choose from. There's quite a few, yeah. That's the thing. But that's the thing. Like, it's overwhelming. All of them? Yeah. Like, it's, you know, yeah. The environment, refugees, like, that's up my alley. Like, in Greece, that's how most of them are trying to escape the horrors of... Is that still going on? Of course, yeah. There was a crisis on Lesbos, was it, back in the day? There still is. It's the same. It's just like we're focusing on different things. But that's still... It's still happening. Is it like a refugee camp on Lesbos?

1:05:27Lesbos? They don't call them camps anymore. They call them hospitality centers or something like that. But they are like camps. And they're not just on Lesbos. They're on many islands and on mainlands. and yeah it's pretty yeah rough situation and then let's not even talk about you know what's going on Gaza and West Bank in which you did a documentary that I'd like it to be longer oh thank you so yeah there's there's well America what's going on there like the rise of you know right wing right wing populism populism everywhere like there's so much like we're i'm probably not the best to talk about these things but you know i do notice them would you ever think well i'd shine a light on this with with a film i think perhaps you're not issue driven in that way straightforward away i'm i guess i'm not but i'm i'm it's hard to ignore it more and more yes i am political but it's not i explore as you said like whatever human power dynamics or whatever and it's never directly political i think bougonia is more directly political than like there's political references specific political references um and yeah i'm like in a place where I'm wondering whether I need to do something which is, yeah, more directly political and in terms of like addressing some things more head-on.

1:07:10And I don't know what that is. Maybe I'll make a documentary.

1:07:26Welcome back. Hope you enjoyed that. I was definitely reaching my limit of journalistic or podcast hosting competence. There were times when I thought, well, when the guest calls you illiterate, albeit slightly tongue-in-cheek, you realise maybe you haven't brought your A-game, or maybe your A-game is their C-game or D-game. Yorga said I don't have much to gain from reviews that praise the work do you agree well since we recorded I've had a film come out Louis Theroux Inside the Manosphere a Netflix documentary I found that I preferred reading the positive reviews I don't know that I learned much from them I didn't read all the negative reviews you're surprised that there were any there were a few one had a headline they called the film an infuriating failure Millie found that very funny that's the most I've seen her laugh I mean you could spin that as a positive yeah maybe you should be infuriated maybe the failure is you maybe the world is a mirror and it's bouncing back Think about that, reviewer I try not to memorise their names

1:08:58Which suggests I do memorise their names If you find yourself in Athens, in Greece, not Georgia Between now and May, Yorgos has a photography exhibition open now It was reviewed in the New York Times very favourably We'll put a link in the show notes for that Have you checked out the show notes, people at home, in Radioland? I'm amazed, I don't do them I'm not sure who is doing them, but they're, I mean, if I just have to say like, oh, I like the smell of my own farts and they'll have a little link to like, you know, farts. You know, it's extraordinary. That's not a good example. Like they're going to put up the Wikipedia page for Athens, probably.

1:09:40No, it's amazing though. Are you doing that? Ellie does them. Ellie does them. Wow. Maybe too many. no it's just right for me the big takeaway was that he'd seen my documentaries and genuinely seemed to have got something out of them for Millie the takeaway is that someone reviewed my film and the headline was Louis Theroux's Manosphere film is an infuriating failure

1:10:12oh wow that's it from me for a while we'll be back with more episodes quicker than you can say the Louis Theroux podcast Credits The producer was Millie Chu The assistant producer was Artemis Irvine The production manager was Francesca Bassett The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira The executive producer was Aaron Fellows This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify

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