S8 EP1: Gary Lineker on England’s losing streak, leaving the BBC, and his frosty relationship with Cristiano Ronaldo

28:52Oh, probably Haaland. Yeah. According to my notes. For people at home who don't know, Man City Danger Man, he's Norwegian. He's Norwegian, yeah. He's Norwegian. He's a big figure of a man. Oh, he's a... Imagine being a defender, trying to defend against that. Very difficult. It's a man mountain. It's a Viking. Earning a reported, take it for what it's worth, £525 ,000 per year, you ask? No. Per week. It's a living. £27.3 million annually. That's about what you were on by the end, is it? The end of what? £27 million annually. Let that sink in. Plus, there's tons of sponsorships and stuff. Double that.

29:39He's probably making£50 million a year. I think when I was, I was probably one of the top paid players in the world when I was at Barcelona and Tottenham. And I would have been on about four days of his salary. So I was on about 325 grand a year, which was big at the, felt enormous. Felt amazing. What about when you started at Leicester? I started at Leicester as an apprentice at 16 and I was paid 16 pounds a week. and they gave me a separate envelope with a fiver in that was for my mum because all the kids that got digs that were from other places, not because I was a local lad. So they thought it's only fair that your mum gets paid a little bit and my mum would never take it.

30:29So I was actually on 21 quid a week. When you're an apprentice, are you playing? Are you part of the team? Not the first team. I was in the youth team. If you're as good as Luminum, you are. but I wasn't I was a slow developer I didn't reach puberty until I was 17 which was a bit embarrassing I'm still waiting are you still waiting that's a weird joke how much would you have made once you started in the first team 100 quid a week I was on yeah 100 quid a week did that seem alright I didn't really think you were probably 17 by then or 18 18 I got a professional contract 18th birthday and then it went up to I was top scorer in the Division 1 as it was then called and I was on I think 400 quid a week, 24 years old and that's when I moved to Everton for a year so it's gone up but it felt like a lot of time Watching you as a younger man what struck me was you didn't seem to be doing very much like it was like he's just he just sticks his leg out and it goes into the goal that's doing a lot isn't it Great, isn't it?

31:39I mean, it's a goal. What could be better than that? But I couldn't understand how you were able to score so much and make it seem relatively effortless. And then obviously this has come up a lot. I think that's a compliment. Your podcast company is called Goal Hanger. Yes. And you've played with the idea that, oh, I was sort of the right place, right time. But in a way that was your style, right? I think the thing is that you are in the right place at the right time, but you're actually in the right place all the time. But often the ball is not. So the secret of scoring goals is it's the law of probability.

32:19So most strikers and most people I watch wait to see where the ball is going to be crossed and then attack the ball. Others, say from midfield, they'll wait to see where the pass is and then they'll chase the pass. the way you score goals is to gamble on the space where you think the cross might go where you can score from so if you keep doing that run now 19 times out of 20 the ball won't go there it'll go behind you it'll go behind the goal the keeper will catch it it won't go to that spot where you think it might go so if you keep going at that spot that spot and just gambling on where you think it might go on the 20th time, you'll be there and the ball goes in that spot and you've got an easy chance.

33:11Everyone looks at it, see, right place, right time. They don't see the other 19 times where you were in the right place but the ball wasn't. That is the secret to scoring goals and I understood that. So by the time it gets to the perfect ball comes, you go, it's a tap-in, it's amazing, it's always like easy goals, like you just said, just stick your leg out. But I always wonder why everybody didn't get it. Seems quite simple when you put it like that. I think it's simple. People say, can you teach that or does it have to be instinct? I don't think it's instinct. I've had a chat with Thomas Muller, you know, the famous German, brilliant goal scorer.

33:51And he said exactly the same thing. I saw him do an interview and he was saying exactly about the laws of probability and the maths of it. and I thought, yeah, someone gets it. You've talked a lot about 86 being pivotal. You'd come up, you were a relatively late developer, having been signed to Leicester, you were a late bloomer physically, like reached puberty late and that physicality came late as a result. It was your early 20s when you're hitting your stride. Then you get called up, 86, Mexico. It was a legendary World Cup for various reasons. Very, very hot, wasn't it? and you were coming off the back of a string of, I want to say, failures to score, right?

34:34I think you said there were like several games on the top for the national level. Yeah, I'd gone four or five games without a goal for England before the World Cup and then didn't score in the first two. So I think I was about six games without a goal. And I thought Bobby would leave me out. Bobby Robson, England manager. Yeah, lovely guy, no longer with us sadly, but he stuck with me. He stuck with you. You'd been banging them away for... Everton. Leicester City and then Everton. Yeah. So you came with all that history. They must have known, well, he's got something. It makes me think of the old man.

35:05Well, I'd been scoring for England prior to that in the qualifiers. In the qualifiers? I was banging in the goals for England. And then it was just a little dry spell at the end of the season. The pre-World Cup friend. It does feel weird when you're in a dry spell. It is weird because you're not really doing anything different. No. And it's very important that you don't do anything differently. Yeah. Sometimes it's service dries up. For a striker, no service, what can you do? Well, exactly. Blame everyone else, that's what you do. You blame them. Say, come on, get the ball in the box. Come on.

35:36And then you go in, the first one is Morocco or Portugal? In that World Cup was Portugal we lost. Lost to Portugal. And then Morocco, you would think we would... Yeah, but then Brian Robson dislocated his shoulder and Ray Wilkins got sent off. Was Brian Robson the captain? Yes. So then you go into the third game. it's against Poland my favourite bit was prior to the game when Bobby Robson who was let's say his team talks went on a bit very long so he normally did about 45 minutes and he'd talk we used to call him Mogadon we were nodding on I mean he was lovely you'd run through a brick wall for him but he did go on a bit in his team meetings and he always had this flip chart next to him.

36:28And prior to this game, we'd had a bad start. We were getting pilloried at home and he was getting dogs abuse from everywhere. Not that we're aware of it that much because we're in Mexico and there's no social media, thankfully. So he gets us in this room before, as he would do on a match day, and he goes, right, boys. He said, you know what you've got to do today against Poland. I could reel off all the possible permutations of results, he said but you don't need to see that you know what you've got to do I trust you, you go out there you play how you know you can play and he did this rousing 30 second, 60 second speech and at the end of it he went just get out there and win and we all went wow, goosebumps and we all stood up and he went but if anyone wants to see the permutations he turned over the flip chart board and he had it and he spent 45 minutes talking through them all.

37:26Absolutely true. But anyway, come the game, we're playing in 40 degrees, 42 degrees centigrade it was. It's mental. And things changed. I made that, you know, that guessing on where the ball might go thing I told you about before. Gary Stevens crossed it. I was there three yards out, Bosch 1-0 and then suddenly I was, I'd scored a hat-trick in just a few minutes and life changed. Life changed in all sorts of different ways. offers were coming in you'd already been in the sights of barcelona right and then they they i think they'd made contact with everton and everton had told us about it and suggested that they agreed a fee this is before the world cup and then the world cup was started and i had a chat with my agent john and he said right how do we how do we handle this i said well join the world cup i said i'm with england i said i don't want i don't want to know anything i said let's park it till after the world cup this has got to be my focus anyway they went pretty quiet apparently during the first couple of games because i didn't score um and then i scored a hat-trick and then i got two more against paraguay and then it happened so you know suddenly score a hat-trick things changed top score in the world cup and then i'm in barcelona we should talk about one of the most famous games in English football, the match against Argentina.

38:54Yeah. Maradona scored two goals. Yeah. I think prior probably to the last World Cup final, I think it's, and it still might be, I think it's the most famous game in history, in football history, because of all the circumstances. It was four years after the Argentine, what we call the Argentine War. Well, the Falklands War. Falklands War, we call it. They call it Las Malvinas. Las Malvinas. I mean, historically, Argentina and the UK slack, or in this case, England, there's a lot of commonality. There's a lot of mutual respect and love. Nevertheless, there was a war. And so this was like a grudge match, wasn't it?

39:36Well, I mean, they always denied it as footballers. I saw them do press conferences. But genuinely amongst our, all I can talk about is our team, and we never really. No. And Bobby Robson was saying, you'll probably get asked questions in press conferences, just dead bat them. Really? All we're concentrating on is the World Cup. But we were aware of it. Of course we were. It was so recent. Was it quarterfinals or was it round of 16? Quarterfinals. So that's always going to be a big match. And then when you add the history, it's a great footballing nation. That's a classic match-up, right? And then what happened in the match itself.

40:12You then had probably the most controversial goal ever scored when Maradona punches it in, and then probably the best goal that's ever been scored. So to have those two things just a few minutes apart in the same match, and then we came back a bit, and John Barnes came on, knocked it across, and I got us back in it, and then I nearly scored at the end. You've got to mention your golf course. Let's get that on the record. Yes, well, I scored the goal that no one remembers in that game. Was Diego Maradona, was he as legendary then at that time? How well known was he? Was he at his peak? I would say he was absolutely at his peak, mid-twenties.

40:54He was unbelievably good. So in 86, everyone would have known who he was. Oh, yeah. He was absolutely the world's biggest superstar footballer. Do you think the defenders were told, keep an eye on Diego? Well, I played in a game against him, so I know what we were told. What were they saying? No, the plan was whenever he got the ball, get as many people around him as possible. Because if it was one-on-one, he'd kill you. Really? It's like Messi now. You can't just mark him. And it's very difficult because you can't then go, well, we'll put three players on him because then you're outnumbered everywhere else.

41:26But he was so good. I mean, he was like a different game. It's like Messi and him for me. The two players that my life, I didn't really see much of Pele, I only caught the end of his crib. But in my lifetime, those two, they do stuff that's impossible. And they were so similar, you know, diminutive, left-footed, Argentinian, just so creative, just wonderful. And they beat people. I mean, his goal. And the pitch was like a cabbage patch. It was so bad, that pitch, and bumpy, because they'd had problems with it. So how he did that little bit of skill on the halfway line, I'll never know. Was it clear you were at the other side of the pitch?

42:05I didn't see it. I mean, for people who don't know... That's a goal hanger. He basically, he hit it with his hand. I remember watching it at the time. I think people will know that one. This one. I'm sure you don't have to say for people that don't know. During the match, he's done it with his hand. It looks like he might have done it with his hand. I'm not sure. Let's see it again. A little punch. He says that, he said to his teammates, they weren't reacting. He says, come and hug me. Probably, yeah. Because otherwise the breath won't give it. He won't get away with it. Yeah. It was mad because I definitely know the linesman saw it.

42:35Really? He admitted it. He did a book on this whole thing. And he was interviewed and he said, I was pretty sure that he hadn't bought it, but I just didn't have the nerve. I thought, oh, cheers. Did you get to know Maradona? Yeah, I did a documentary with him. Louis Theroux-style documentary. Look out. No, I didn't do it like that. But it was the most... I'd spent three days with him. It was mental. I mean, he... What period was this? No, this was long after he's finished, so... But was he all right? because for people who don't know, he had substance abuse issues, weight abuse issues, he was a complicated guy, wasn't he?

43:12But honestly, spending two or three days with him, I don't see how it could be any other way. Everywhere, it was like, you know the Monty Python film where in Life of Brian where they're following the Messiah and it's a different, I mean, that is his life. Everywhere he goes, he's like the Messiah. In fact, if you've been to Naples, there's literally shrines incredible to him from his time there it's just mad that his life was nuts and I spent a bit of time with him but he was also lovely really great guy fun thoughtful and he was yeah you got him I saw a clip from this I think and you got him to confess or admit to the fact that it was with his hand I did I remember thinking how would Louis do this no you didn't I don't think you were doing this stuff back then You would have been.

44:02He said, after the game, as we know, they said, how was the goal scored? He says it was a little bit of the foot of Maradona, a little bit of the heart of God. But then of the goal of the century, do you know his quote about that? He said, I don't think I could have done it against any other team because they all used to knock you down. And then of the English side, they are probably the noblest in the world. Like he was like, why aren't they fouling me? I get that. I get that. We're just terribly good chaps. I mean, maybe he was just trying to be nice. Yeah, maybe he's just trying to make it up.

44:34When you look at the goal, though, it's not like, oh, they could have fouled him. They just didn't know what was coming at them. Well, I think Fennec would have fouled him because he definitely was not too nice. But he'd already had a yellow card. So otherwise, I think he would have sized him down. But I get what he's saying. We're not a team that just goes out, like, kicking people like some would in those days. In those days, because you needed to commit serious, grievous bodily harm to actually get even a yellow card back then. Really? Yeah. It felt like that to me when I was being kicked anyway.

45:09You mentioned Messi. For you, he's the standout player of his generation, of your lifetime. I never thought I'd see a better player than Diego. And I'm not sure, he might not necessarily be a better player, but he's lived better. Therefore, he's had greater longevity. I think you have to take that into account. I mean, I just can't explain how good he is. Because he does stuff that I... I mean, he'd do four or five things in a game that I wouldn't have done in one game in my entire career. And I played, you know, at the top. He plays like he's watching himself from above. Take away all the goals and the dribbles and stuff.

45:49His passing and his vision, I just don't know how it's humanly possible. It's just bizarre. But I've just got so much time for him. He's given me 20 years of joy watching him. What about Ronaldo? Cristiano's an incredible footballer. They're matched together, aren't they? They are, but they're different. They're different. I always feel bad because people have a go at me because they say, oh, you don't like Ronaldo. It's not that I don't like Ronaldo. I absolutely think he's an incredible footballer. footballer but you can't there's no argument about who is the better footballer they're just anyone that understands the game will see that but I've got so much admiration for Cristiano because he's you know he's he's so driven and his career has been so successful and he scored so many goals he's he's brilliant and any of in in many eras he would you know he'd be the best player of his time, but the fact that he's actually put in the same breath and lots of people do make the comparison is a huge compliment to him, really, of what he's achieved because he hasn't got the ability that Messi has.

47:04No one has. But it's not an insult to Ronaldo to say that. Do people get annoyed about that? Ronaldo fans, yeah. And Ronaldo gets annoyed. He doesn't speak to me anymore. Really? No, he used to be You know, we used to get on all right. And then suddenly I was interviewed or something and said, you know, who's the better player? Well, Messi. And then he doesn't like you anymore then. How's your energy? Are you all right? Because a couple more things I wouldn't mind. I'm good. Can I have a pee? Yes. That's good because I'm old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can leave. It'd be better if you did it in the bathroom though.

47:39I'm not going to do it over the microphone. Because otherwise we have to bring a mop in. I could shit on the pitch. We could talk about that. when you come back. It's funny.

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49:05Should we deal with the, what do you even call it? What? when you befouled yourself on the pitch? Shit myself. Shit myself gate. Yeah. Shit gate. Shit gate. Well, shit gate didn't really come to light. Well, it did at the time, obviously, but for about 20 years. No one seemed to know. Obviously, my teammates knew and family. I did tell family, but I was interviewed about 20 years later. And the last question was, do you know, there's a rumour that you, you know, You had an accident on the pitch in Italia 19. I told the story and then it sort of went viral. I mean, it was the opening game of the World Cup in 1990.

49:51We were playing in Cagliari and I hadn't very well overnight. My stomach was off. I don't know what it was. Food poisoning, was it? I don't think it was probably food. It might have been or a bug. It might have been nerves or something. I don't think so. so we go out on the pitch and I didn't tell Bobby because I wanted to play you know so and then I started cramping up again about half an hour into the game and I thought but I lasted till half time and I ran in the loo and so then I go back out for the second off so I'll probably be alright now and then about 10-15 minutes into the second off I start cramping up again I'm thinking oh my god and the ball goes out to their left-hand side.

50:36So I'm running out there and I thought, well, I might get this and I slid to try and tackle. And as I slid, I relaxed and it just went whoosh. And I'm on the pitch side and I've gone, oh my fucking God. I'm shoveling out my shorts and I'm doing like a dog, you know, a dog swipes his arse on the grass. And then there's a brilliant clip because after I'd spoken about it, obviously they found the footage of it and it's quite obvious what's happened. I think I've seen the stills. Yeah, maybe. So there's a bit where Gary Stevens, the right back, comes up to me and he goes, you all right, Lynx? And I went, and you look at me over my shoulder and I go, I've shit myself.

51:26Did it not show on your shorts? Well, thankfully we had blue shorts, dark blue ones. Thankfully. But I had to shuffle it out. And the good thing was it had rained. So I'm wiping it all on the grass. Quite hygienic. Then after that, I thought, right, so I'll carry on playing. I did find a little bit more space after that, funnily enough. Nobody marked me too tightly. So anyway, so I'm playing. And then with about 10 minutes to go, Bobby Robson took me off. And every ground in the world, right, almost every ground in the world, the dugout is by the tunnel where the dressing room was except for Calliary which is on the opposite side so I go off and have to sit on the bench with all the players and I sit on the end and you can see them gradually just sliding away the chairs just sliding along oh god I was humming it was didn't you know what I got back I went back into the dressing room at the end of the game got them dressed in the toilet and you know where they put the brush thing?

52:31I hid my kit in there because I was too embarrassed to take it back out. Did you? So I'd just like to apologise to the grounds person who ever found that stinking kit hidden under the thing because I was so embarrassed. Yeah, it was hellish. But it's quite funny now. Yes. It's quite funny now, but at the time it was actually pretty grim and smelly. I also like the idea that it remained a kind of secret or a rumour circulated and then now it's becoming a calling card. I know, what a fool. You know, having had your story, footballing career, you went on to become a broadcaster at the highest level, filling the shoes of legendary BBC presenter Des Lynam.

53:17And I remember that takeover and thinking like, oh, Gary, he's no Des. No, definitely wasn't. Which maybe at the beginning you weren't, but now looking back. It was funny, you know, because Des left for ITV, and I'd gone in and I wanted to present because I just looked at other sports like cricket with David Gower and tennis with Sue Barker, and they had people that played their sport at the top. And I thought, football might need that. Maybe I can do that and I'll get greater longevity. But anyway, so I'd been presenting Football Focus for a couple of years because Steve Ryder had left. And then it was 1999, I think.

53:55And on Tuesdays, we had our football-focused production meetings at lunchtime. And I drove into, you know, the White City, into the car park, and there's the guy on the gate. And the guy on the gate goes, Gary, he said, terrible news, isn't it? I went, what's that? He went, Des Lynam's gone to ITB. I went, oh, has he? Oh. And I think I was the only person in the country that was quite happy. He went, yeah. He said, who do you think will get the job? I said, well, I'd better find out, hadn't I? Better find out. Yeah. So it was tough, tough shoes to follow. But he was also, you know, having done punditry alongside Des a little bit while I was learning the craft, incredibly useful.

54:38Well, you have a similar, just very natural, relaxed, I'm barely presenting style, kind of informal. we should reflect on the fact that your parting from the BBC was much written about yes it was a little I remember the best thing to say about this just as an overall observation is that you'd taken to Twitter with some alacrity as it was then X as it is now and weren't shy about airing opinions which you viewed as humanitarian opinions the BBC and some newspapers and presumably others viewed it as political, a spicy political commentary. The two standout moments, one was a comment that compared government policy on migrants to Germany in the 30s.

55:28Language not dissimilar to that used in Germany in the 30s, which it was, I think, an accurate statement. That got people riled up. Yes, it did a little. and it was in a sense the footballing metaphor would be I guess the BBC gave you a yellow card on that one I was due one Was that the moment when they suspended you from That was when they took me off the show I think it was an overaction on their part and their subsequent apology at the end of it suggested that was the case Was that 2023? I don't know, was it? I remember seeing you shortly afterwards. A couple of years ago, wasn't it? At Wimbledon.

56:14That's right. It was like the next day or two days later. It was, yeah. And then I was surprised to see how relaxed you appeared to be. Presumably tabloids were kept outside the house. On that particular occasion, I was totally at ease with what I'd done. I thought it was humanitarian. Someone was having a real dig at me, not a very nice manner. I responded and I thought I was factually correct. Some people took on bridge with it. No one spotted it for a while because it was only a little reply. It wasn't a main tweet. And I was comfortable because I didn't think I'd done anything wrong. I don't think it was a particularly scandalous thing to say.

57:00And also I think it's important perhaps to put into some kind of perspective of how it works in terms of, you know, the balance that you have to have on BBC. So when I started at the BBC, there was no social media. Then I started social media, but there were no restraints on people that worked for the BBC other than those in news and current affairs. And then that shifted in around 2019. They completely moved the goalposts and decided that if you're at the BBC, you can't have any kind of view on anything political, which I'd never really done on the political side of things. Nobody knows who I vote for.

57:46I've never said who I vote for. I've never told anyone to. And I said to them when they changed these rules, I said, I will continue to post things that I feel are important about humanitarian issues. And they were going, oh, not really. You'll be careful. So I actually was relaxed that because I didn't think I'd done anything wrong. And then obviously I got an amazing share of support from the people that I worked with, you know, with Ian Wright and Alan Shearer. Ian Wright and Alan Shearer said, well, if Gary's suspended for a match of the day, we're not going to do the show. Yeah, I mean, Wrighty was first and he did it and I was in a restaurant in London having lunch and got the news that they'd taken me off the show, which I saw on social media.

58:28They didn't tell me personally first, which I thought was a bit strange. and the day before I was having a chat with a little group chat what's up group chat with Alan and and Wrighty and I said I've got a feeling they might might take me off the show and Wrighty immediately went if they do that I'm not doing it in solidarity I'm not doing much today and I was like wow it was like a real wow moment I just because I didn't ask them to I would never ask them to do I didn't expect them to do that but you know it was just an amazing then Alan followed and and then there was, you know, Micah and Jermaine and I just thought, this is just so mad for just one, like, little reply to someone, everything that's happened.

59:11And then, you know, I had a conversation before that lunch with the BBC saying we want, you know, you've got to apologise. I said, I don't think I've got anything to apologise, I'm not going to do it. Who do you talk to in that moment? Is it Tim Davey? It was Tim and Charlotte Moore. Charlotte Moore. They were the two that were involved in it. And I get on well with both of them. I like both of them. I understand the pressures that come in. So they said, we want you to apologise. Yeah, I think the BBC's problem in this, and I understand why it happens, I think they're so obsessed with trying to placate or appease or keep happy, you know, the Daily Mail-type newspapers.

59:50And they're doing that to people that would get rid of the license fee in a heartbeat. They just don't want the BBC to, because they're competitors to the BBC. And then, you know, from them asking for me to apologise, they end up apologising. Fast forward, what, a year or a year and a half or so, and you posted an Instagram story or shared an Instagram story. That was totally different. That I felt bad about. From a group called Palestine Lobby, which said, Zionism explained in two minutes and featured an emoji, seemed to be an illustration of a rat or a mouse. Yeah, which I didn't see, obviously.

1:00:28I mean, I don't think anyone actually believes I would have posted that if I'd seen it. Which was pointed out to you is an anti-Semitic insult referring to language used by Nazi Germany to characterize Jews. Yes, which, you know, obviously I learned about that pretty quickly after that. But that one I felt bad about because that was my mistake. That was my mistake because I, you know, it was not with intent, but I could see why some people would be upset by that. So that I felt bad about and was happy to apologise, which I did. But I think by that stage, I think we're like a marriage with the BBC.

1:01:03We've been together for a long time and it was starting to run out of love for each other. But I'll always love the BBC. It's an amazing, amazing corporation. So that sped up the departure. It sped up the departure. At that point, the curtain came down. Yeah. I was going anyway, but we just brought it forward. I thought it seemed to be the sensible thing to do. I remember reading a column in the Times where they said BBC must stand up to brazen Gary Lineker. Did you read that? I don't read that. Because the Daily Mail obviously has a... You've got to remember the news. ...and the Telegraph as well.

1:01:35In the centrist papers like the Times or sort of right-leaning or centrist, when they've got the knives out, it's different. And I want to share this with you because it gave me pause. It came from someone who sometimes works for the BBC, who professes to love the BBC. And he wrote, to get the job, he, meaning you, gave assurances about his commitment to the impartiality of the BBC. That's not true, though. And he said, it's an interesting, he said, he signed up to impartiality as stated and gave repeated undertakings. He would honour it. He then serially and brazenly betrayed his word. Who said that?

1:02:11Matthew Side. Well, Matthew Side. He's clickbait, isn't he? So I understand why he said that, but he's wrong. Because obviously, as I explained before, when you join them. There was no such thing as social media, actually, when I started. So that's obviously nonsense. Impartiality only applied to those in news and current affairs. And then as social media started to change, the BBC changed their guidelines. And their guidelines, it's not in your contract. There's nothing in my contract. So he's wrong. He's fundamentally wrong, Matthew. I'm sure he'll apologise when I see him next. Do you know him?

1:02:47I know him vaguely, yeah. And I'm sure he apologised, but he probably didn't know that. And I think I was always trying to be sensible. Obviously, you know, some people would disagree with that, and that's fine. But I never, ever said what Matthew Saeed said. I'd never heard that, actually, before. I didn't. Really? No, genuinely never, because I don't really read them. And social media was interesting because it came along, and people said, well, when did you start having these views? And I went, well, probably always, but suddenly you've got a platform to share them. In hindsight, would I do it differently?

1:03:25Don't know. Don't know. Probably not. Probably not. You wouldn't share that Instagram story? I would have. No, that was just, that was a mistake. That was, you know, that was obviously, I didn't see that. Otherwise, I would not have shared it. And I've, you know, I've made that very clear. And I don't think anyone, seriously, even the haters, think that I did that on purpose. I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid. It felt like you represented something as well. You know, at a time when, for whatever reason, whether it's partly social media or the times we live in or some sort of backlash against perceived wokeness, that you were the avatar for a kind of rich guy, liberal, virtue signalling, right?

1:04:14Yeah. Because it would always come out, highest paid BBC presenter, Gary Lineker, out of touch, smug. You were like a scratching post. Yeah, I know. I mean, I don't take much notice of it and it doesn't bother me because haters are going to hate. However, if you're in the public life, there will always be a percentage of people that just don't like you. They don't know you, but they'll decide that there's something about you that they don't like and they'll label you with things that you've just said, like virtual singing and stuff like that. It'd be a lot easier if I didn't care about stuff. But unfortunately, I do.

1:04:55I wonder if you know I've increasingly sort of disconnected from social media because I feel like in the end you're sort of just throwing red meat to your followers who already agree with you no I totally agree with you on that I've thought about that a lot and I don't think it makes any difference although people will say otherwise you know I've stuck up with people in Gaza and stuff and, you know, Palestinian people and saying it really does make a difference. Because silence, you've also got to wrestle with that if you decide not to say something. So ultimately, I don't think I can influence anyone, but I have to live with myself.

1:05:44And at the end of the day, if I can go look myself in the mirror and think that I've done something right rather than not do anything at all. That's important to me. And also, I would never be critical of anyone that doesn't say anything because the only person you can control is yourself. And I've had these thoughts, you know, a lot of time about social... I mean, I don't bother with X anymore because it's just toxic nonsense. When did you stop? Two, a couple of years ago, probably. Before that, you were very prolific. I was, yeah, I loved it. I enjoyed it. Used to be able to have conversations and have fun with people.

1:06:21I don't know about a dick. Possibly. Well, if I was, I managed to stop the addiction quite easily, so I suspect not. But it was fun. You sent 50 ,000 tweets, apparently. A day. On a good day. Yeah, no, I wouldn't expect... Is that possible? That was the data that my team came up with. I've no idea. 50 ,000. Would you be just there? Over, what, 12 years? Is that a single man thing, do you think? Like... Well, I'm a lot on my own. I'm not married. I've been single since 2016. So I've been single for 10 years, eight of which that would have been on my own sitting at home, so maybe. But now I've weaned myself off it very easily.

1:07:02I mean, I've still got my ex thing, and if someone asks me the charity thing or promote one of our podcasts or a new podcast or an episode, I just automatically do. How are you enjoying bachelorhood? I like being on my own. I've got so accustomed to it now being slightly selfish but unanswerable to anyone Are you just alone in a big house? I've got a dog Just you and a dog Me and a dog But I My boys are always round I mean It's very very rare Do you wander room to room like Bunny Tyler in Total Eclipse of the Heart? No Carrying candles No but it's an odd It's like a Hollywood legend In my old football shorts In your football shorts Not the ones that I chat in.

1:07:48Not those. But no, I'm all right. I'm fine. Don't worry, Luke. You like your own company. I'm absolutely happy on my own. What about romance? No, I think I'm done. I don't know. You never know, but I think I'm... No. I don't know. I just can't... I'm not buying that. I can't imagine actually living with someone again. What about physical needs? You get to a certain age where it's so much effort. You have to bring in a winch and a crane. Yeah, and a big blue pill. really? Yeah, I don't know. It might change, but I, you know, I love women's company. And I've got a lot of friends that I know I've got to dinner with.

1:08:29You've never worked on the social media. What do they call it? Like Raya. Do you know about Raya? That's a dating app. It's a dating app for like the high-end clientele. Well, one of my boys is on it actually. George. I think George is on it. The mic still picks you up when you're whispering. I know. But that wouldn't be a road you go down. It must be tough, though, if you're as famous as you are, like National Treasure. No, I wouldn't. That's a headline. I'm not, honestly. Would that be a headline in the mail? Gary Lineker spotted on Raya. Definitely. On Raya, not the goalkeeper. Gary Lineker forgot to feed his dog.

1:09:07I made a footballing joke. Not the goalkeeper. Hey, yes, very good. Goalkeeper four. Well, he used to be Brentford and now he's Arsenal. Correct. Yeah. Well done. I think, look, how are we going to coast out on something a little bit more meaningful? You know, podcasting is your latest field of accomplishment. I'm thinking of going into it. You know, it's been remarked a lot that you're outstanding in, well, football, then broadcasting, now podcasting. You make it seem quite effortless. you could almost say that in the same way that you would stick your leg out and score a goal, you should have stick your leg out in other fields and score metaphorical goals, right?

1:09:52And, you know, the odd own goal along the way, but that's life. It's life. What's the secret? I think really there's a... The podcast. I mean, is it, obviously, like, service... Yours is a good, very successful podcast. Service is, like, you seem to have a knack for having good people around you as well. Is that part of it? Definitely. We got in early and we got lucky with obviously one or two of our... The first ones were... The first one was with me and Danny Baker. But then... What was it called? Behind Closed Doors. Behind Closed Doors. And then we... Was that an always on, as they call it?

1:10:26No. No, we were just dabbling. We did two or three series. Was it during lockdown? It started just... It started before that. It was about 2016, 17. And what was the premise? It was footballer meets footballer fan. And so it was different stories and letters, people sending in questions and stuff. We thought something in this did quite well. We got a book deal. And then Tony, my business partner at the time, I mean, there's three of us now, but at the time it was just Tony and myself. Tony, what's his son? Tony Pastor. And he was in a bookshop looking for a World War II book because he's a massive World War II aficionado.

1:11:04And he said four of the top ten books or something were World War II books. And he said, I'm going to find a podcast about World War II. Couldn't find one. He said, why don't we do a podcast about World War II? I went, we'd always just done sport. He worked with me at the BBC sport years ago. And he went, yeah, yeah. And we ended up getting James Holland, Tom Holland's brother, who does the rest of his history, and Al Murray, the comedian, who's absolutely wacky about, knows everything about World War II. And that's still going to this day. It has World War II Festival, which we have late summer every year.

1:11:39It's hugely popular, does really well. And from that... What's it called? It's called We Have Ways of Making You Talk. So then I had the idea of James's brother, Tom Holland, to do one on all history. And Tom, it took months to try and find his partner to do it with. And in the end, I think Tony sat him down and said, if you were in a pub and you were with all your historian mates, who would you want to sit next to? He went, Dominic. And I think we can say the rest is history. It's the biggest pub in the world. Wow. It was announced by Apple recently. Wow. It's extraordinary. And then from there we branched out with politics.

1:12:22The rest is politics. With Rory and Asda. We had the idea of getting one from one. Our neighbours over the corridor over here. Yeah, they often do it there. Yeah. and that became a huge hit as well so politics and then we branched out from there and now we've got you know classified and football so crazy I know it's an amazing business and do you know what you know we talked about the things didn't we the football and some of the politics and all the things that I've had in my life where it's nearly all wonderful and great and people are always nice but there's always some people want to have a pop at you but with the podcast thing it's amazing everywhere I get stopped oh I love the rest of his entertainment oh I love the rest of his history is amazing oh I love the rest of his football and it's like you're sometimes waiting for the butt or oh I hate you I don't like you because people listen to it because they enjoy it it's not you know it's different from other things where you're on the BBC and they you know they might love football but they might not like you whereas if it's a podcast you're not going to tune into somebody that you don't like that's right so that's the upside and the downside side is we have less of a shared culture we don't we have less of a public square because people can opt out or opt into whatever they want but the good side is that you you're not really exposed to people that you necessarily wouldn't want to hear from no how involved are you i i do four podcasts a week myself so three episodes of football and one spanish football um i don't go in the office every day um tony and jack jack davenport run they do all the work you know i'm I'm basically like I was.

1:13:58You just sit in the box. My whole career. My whole career. I let everyone else do the work and then I get all the praise at the end of it. Exactly the same as my football career and broadcasting career. Do you all learn about the box? Go on. You know it. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. I think I was born to be in the box. I became reasonably good on the box and I'll soon be in a box. Is that a way to finish a podcast?

1:14:40I should have a whistle. Actually, it's the full time. It's the long whistle blow that signals it's the end of the game. It's not like stop play for a free kick or something. That was the end of extra time. No penalties Okay, that was a footballing metaphor Do I know anything about football? I'll leave that to you to decide I do want to apologise to regular listener Jack Grealish I don't know if Jack's a listener Or a watcher indeed I would love it if he were I'm a fan of his footballing I think I said bring Jack on And then he runs around in circles in the box and then loses the ball. He might have done that once.

1:15:29And so obviously he doesn't normally do that. Obviously he's a brilliant footballer. He's a joy to watch and he's got enormous calves. The production team would like you to keep a positive channel open to Jack just in case he'd like to come on the show. I read that, but nevertheless, I endorse that. I would love to talk to Jack. Him not getting nerves, Millie's written, meaning me. Do I get nerves when I'm playing or broadcasting? When I'm playing football, I get nerves. I used to do a Monday night game with the lads. Really found that funny. That's odd. That wasn't a joke. Me and the other lads would get together for a kickabout.

1:16:13I'm not carrying it off. I found that I was, out of the, say, 30 or so of us who took part, maybe 20 or 30, I'd be in the bottom five percentile. Like I was the worst. I was the worst one. And you would say, well, hang back, like just defend. That's not that difficult. But I found myself getting the urge to surge forward. It was awkward. My ambition and competitiveness was in conflict with my capability. And so it was kind of awkward. And it's also like, It's a horrible thing when you look back and you see someone with the ball look up, think, am I going to pass to you? And then they don't pass to you.

1:16:54And you're like, I know why you're not passing to me because you think I'm just going to lose the ball and you're not wrong. So I would get nerves on the pitch there a little bit. I get nerves in general. Anything live? You may have seen I did Saturday Night Live in the UK a few weeks ago and I did a cameo. I wasn't the host, but it is, as the title suggests, live. And I had two lines, only two, and I was playing myself. I was doing a cameo as Louis Theroux. Not too much of a stretch, you might think. But there is something about that moment before, in fact, the moments leading up to when you go on air and feeling, anything could happen.

1:17:39You could blurt something random, shit your pants, get the lines wrong anyway people said it was quite good it was on Sky if you're interested I haven't actually watched it yet did you see it? I'm asking Millie, Millie said it was good in a kind of non-committal tepid way she said it's genuinely good with no enthusiasm what needy? me

1:18:11if it's not unqualified enthusiastic endorsement, then it's a punch in the face. That's it for this week. Apart from the credits, the producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Maisie Williams. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify.

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1:19:26L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash Louis.