S8 EP2: Marco Pierre White discusses his rift with Gordon Ramsay, retiring from cooking, and having lunch with Margaret Thatcher

0:04Hello and welcome back to the Louis Theroux podcast.

0:17My guest today is world-renowned chef, restaurateur and one-time culinary enfant terrible, Marco Pierre White. In 1995, Marco became the youngest chef ever to be awarded three Michelin stars, Michelin, after training under iconic chefs Albert Roux, Pierre Kaufman and Raymond Blanc. All of those names will be coming up, so pay close attention. They're all legendary, there's that word again, mark it off your bingo card, figures from the London restaurant scene of the 80s. A kind of French invasion. the British invasion was a rock thing uh I'm getting off piste with his rock star looks high profile relationships and famously volatile reputation Marco also became an unlikely celebrity figure regularly appearing in the tabloids during the 90s and early 2000s he is often credited with transforming British fine dining and has been dubbed the first celebrity chef in a lineage that went on to spawn figures like Jamie Oliver, friend of the pod.

1:26Over the course of his career, he trained a generation of other chefs who would go on to become household names, including Gordon Ramsay, maybe you've heard of him, and Heston Blumenthal. In 1999, Marker retired from the kitchen and relinquished his Michelin stars, Michelin, transitioning to franchise businessman and brand ambassador and TV personality featuring on Hell's Kitchen and MasterChef. I wanted to speak to Marco because he's a genius. I've actually never eaten any of his food. I bought one of the cookbooks. It looked complicated, so I didn't make any of them. But I did watch a lot of his old programs.

2:07And I got deep into the mind of the mysterious Master of Mayhem. That just all started. They all started with M. It doesn't really even describe him. Anyway, it was a thrill because he is at the apex of his craft. Not now, he doesn't really cook that much anymore, but he definitely represents something in the culture. We recorded this conversation in February at Spotify HQ. Marco joined me to promote his 20-year partnership with P &O Cruises, which culminates this August with a dedicated anniversary cruise. so if you enjoyed the chat and find Marco interesting I definitely did you might want to go on a piano cruise they're not paying me to say that that was a freebie a quick warning this conversation contains the strongest of language you know what that means Millie begins with a c ends with a t it's not cat should I keep going I think I said it a couple of times and then I got comfortable with it and then we listened to it back and it's like, why does Louis keep dropping the C-bomb?

3:15So we've pulled it right back. All that and much, much more coming up.

3:28This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything, which is why you should lean on Shopify. with tools to design an eye-catching website that reaches customers. Shopify is the ultimate business partner with a built-in support system. And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store that matches your brand. There's hundreds of templates for you to use. Shopify even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing. See why businesses like Gymshark continue to trust Shopify Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash louis.

4:13L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash louis.

4:29You're quite big on the socials at the moment. I don't do it. My son does it. Does he? I wouldn't know how to. I've never sent an email in my life. I've never sent a fax. Seriously? No, I write letters. You're going viral at the moment for eating a McDonald's hamburger. Did you know that? That's not a crime. I didn't say it was. It's just the expressions on your face. The way you said it. It's only what Andy Wall did years ago. Yeah. So I thought I'd try one out. What did he do that was similar to that? Exactly the same without the Heinz. Did he? He ate a hamburger on a video? A McDonald's, yeah.

5:05Really? But do you like McDonald's? I think everywhere has a place. Look, how can I say, you obviously dine out lots. Do I? I'm sure I guess you do. Not really. Okay, once a week. Maybe. Twice. Once. How many times do you become disappointed? Do you have to answer? The one thing about McDonald's, you know exactly what you're getting. It's as simple as that. and I think what's interesting about McDonald's is you go to a pub now and a burger is 18.20 quid you look at that burger you've had for 18.20 quid plus service charge and you look at what McDonald's gives you the way my brain works I start to look at the construction of a McDonald's and look at that and what I find fascinating about McDonald's is they feed one percent of the world's population every day and they deliver consistency if I if you came to my house I'd be stressing and by the way who knows it could even happen I'd be stressing about what am I gonna feed Marco if you're a civilian and it was lunchtime I'd be I'd say I'm making myself a fish finger sandwich would you like one i'd love one would you well it works doesn't it it's delicious let's i'd grate a little cheese on it i'd grill the cheese i used to put some boursin on there i don't know if that works you don't know about cheese on the fish but can i say something please the truth is as long as you enjoy it that's what's important isn't it well yes but then if you didn't enjoy it i think i'd but i just asked for no borsan really i'd ask for cheddar i'd normally put some cheddar on it i suppose it's sort of like a fish pie in a bun really isn't it with breadcrumbs yeah i do like fish fingers i think they're fun things i was thinking i was talking to someone yesterday about this you may be one of the probably the most um in your field the most celebrated guest we've ever had i mean we've had some illustrious guests but you were a generational talent.

7:22Anthony Bourdain, a friend of yours, once said, he single-handedly changed Britain's culinary destiny of you. You absolutely transformed the landscape that you went into. And you came up, obviously, from Leeds, working-class background in a council estate. I'm just curious, for the general public who won't have had the chance to eat at one of your restaurants. What was it that you did and how were you able to do it at that moment in the culture? Could you summarize how it was you transformed the landscape? Well, that was Anthony's opinion. The world that I entered was the old world. It was Iscoffia's world.

8:07I saw the tail end of it. And then I saw the beginning of the modern world. and I started my career at the hotels in George and Harrogate which was very blue collar it sounds quite, I read your book and it sounded grand as well though in its way it was it was the most beautiful contradiction like my chef in one hand he held the feather and in the other hand he held the hammer it was extraordinary Stephen, what was his name? Stephen Wilkinson Stephen Wilkinson He should have set the template for the abusive chef that you were then later on characterised as and then Gordon Ramsay and others He said he used the word, forgive my language right now He said he used the word cunt like it was your Christian name But you know, on the 20th of March 1978 at 6pm my chef de partie, which means head of a section.

9:10He said, Marco, the first thing you have to learn about service is service is service. And no one ever says that anymore. What does that mean? That's what I said. What does that mean, Michael? And he said, when the chef shouts at you, when he tells you to run, when he screams, when he pushes you out of the way, You just say, yes, chef. You don't question it. But remember, Marco, it's service. It's not personal. And that's what I learned from a very young age. Because it was all about the standards. It was all about the food. It was all about serving food hot. The world we live in today, it's like going to a canopy party.

9:59Small portions. Everyone eating the same. You're told what you're eating. You're told how to eat it. you have a mouthful and then they ask you, did you enjoy it? That's not an experience I want. Why not? What's wrong with that? Okay, let me ask you a question. You're talking about the modern restaurant culture. What's right with it? Because gastronomy... They come to the table and say, we specialise in small portions. Food is for sharing. It comes as it... We bring it as it is made. It's not a big starter, a main course. It's multiple courses. Yeah. It's like a canopsy. What chefs have done today is that they've taken canopies and put them on small plates and they tell you it's a course.

10:44When you're reading, digging into your story, there's this extraordinary trajectory of success. It reminded me in some ways of reading almost like a Harry Potter or a Luke Skywalker narrative. You have the young, you have the hero's journey from growing up. It's striking that you actually weren't particularly fixated on food as a young man. Growing up in the Leeds council estate, your father was a cook, but he didn't really bring his... Well, he didn't really invite you to where he worked. He cooked Sunday roasts, but he didn't maybe educate you in food all that much. And so it wasn't as though it was a fixation.

11:19You were interested in hunting and fishing. Nature. And nature, but you didn't... It wasn't like, one day I'm going to be a chef. You just happened to be looking for work. You arrived at this restaurant, this hotel in Harrogate. and then you took to it. Can you explain what it was? Was it that moment where you thought, this is the place for me? What was interesting, without realising, my apprenticeship as a cook started years before. But you didn't realise it. I didn't realise. Watching my mother clamp the mincer to the side of the table, mincing the meat for the bolognese. Watching my mother cook the risotto, the spaghetti, as I sat on the side, boiling chicken which was almost like a pull-a-pot their mum passed and then I turned to nature that's where I felt saved on street corners like everybody else and what I realised when I look back on my life mother nature became my surrogate mother because your mum died when you were six didn't she died of a brain hemorrhage after the birth of your younger brother and that was, you talk about that a lot that comes up a lot I think what's important is by talking about her, I keep her alive.

12:32But you would have been six, so your memories of her would be fleeting at best, imagistic. I'm highly visual. I remember so much. She was Italian. Had my mother not died at six and died when I was 12, those memories would have been eroded. And I'd have had different memories, I believe. But because my mother died at six, all I had was those memories of that moment. but because I'm highly visual therefore my retention is almost better than my brothers because they're not as visual as I am and so I turned to nature I was fascinated by pheasants on the Harewood estate I was fascinated by woodcocks by fish look you know I used to catch trout with my hands catching crayfish but the native ones so this love affair with nature is where it all began.

13:26And so therefore, in later life, when I went to the Hotel St George, I saw my first salmon come through like a silver bar covered in sea lice, five pounds a pound it was. I saw the big Cornish cock crabs. I started to fall in love with produce. You said that, we mentioned your mum died, she was Italian, your father was English, he was a chef, we said that. am I right in thinking he was a drinker? Was he an alcoholic? I don't know whether he was an alcoholic, but he was a product of that world. He was a disciplinarian. You called him a one-dimensional man at one time. I know you were estranged by him for 13 years after you left the North.

14:08You were down in London. Reading between the lines, you're actually quite generous about him. Not quite. You're actually very generous about him in your book. You extenuate his shortcomings. He was a single father, right? Raising three kids. Your younger brother, ended up being put up for a... Well, not quite... Well, he was adopted by my... He was adopted by your aunt and uncle. By my aunt and my uncle in Italy. Because your dad couldn't handle it. It's like, I've got three kids plus a newborn. I can't deal with it. It sounded like quite a brutal upbringing that in certain respects, you internalised strategies for survival that served you in good stead when it came to the bullying atmosphere of the kitchen.

14:43Well, what it did was, if I think back and cast my mind through the filing cabinets of my mind, before I even walked into a kitchen, I'd already learned how to absorb pressure. Abuse? Pressure. You can call it abuse. Why don't you want to call it abuse? Because it's a negative. Right. I like to look at things as a positive. And I look at my father for his strengths, not his weaknesses. Yeah. Many fathers would have walked away. From the three boys? Yes. Can you imagine putting a baby up? saying to the you know that's it must have been strange for you saying there's a baby oh now it's gone it was two three weeks old was he he was he was became italian was sent off to italy he was 13 days old and then he became simone is that right well simon's his middle name okay so they don't have a word for craig in italian so he became simone yeah it's i look back at my life and those many defining moments.

15:48And it's those defining moments that make us who we are, I believe. And had my mother not died, I may not have turned to nature. But when I was very fortunate, yes, I was brought up on a council estate, but at the top of my road was the old Moor-Allerton golf course. I used to walk across that, a little bit of the Moor-Town golf course, and I was on the Harewood estate, designed by Capability Brown, rather magnificent, rather beautiful. So from this hell, I was living. But then I have this wonderful world where I could escape. What was the hell? Being at home with my father, having no mother. You went to your first, after the, is it the George?

16:36Was it called the George? I was with Malcolm and Colin at the Box Street. You were with Malcolm and Colin, a gay couple at the Box Street. Extraordinary Michelin-starred restaurant. in the north of England. Two stars. Two stars. Actually, you've mentioned them as being the two most gifted restaurateurs you've ever met. Well, without question, they were. Firstly, they created an environment which was so magical that I don't know another restaurant I've ever been to which had the magic of the box tree. to have gone there as a boy of 17 years old and to have been exposed to that world and the methods that Box Tree used weren't conventional but what they created was deliciousness it was extraordinary but their generosity again was extraordinary Right.

17:39You left them. Again, looking at your story, it's as though there's a series of, I mean, this is crass, apologies, but, you know, they talk nowadays about video games and boss battles and like there's a series of boss battles and then you go to the next level, you level up. It's almost like you absorb everything you need to from a certain kitchen and a restaurant, and then you're ready to go on to the next level, right? So in this case, it was having finished after a year or two at the box tree in Ilkley, you decide to, I think you decide you're going to go down to London. Is that right? Well, that's where everything happened was at the box tree.

18:17And they used to always say, you never know what the bosses think of you until the day you give your notice. And I said to Michael Lawson, what does that mean? And Michael Lawson, who was the head chef, he used to take me out on a Monday because he was a lonely man. He was a gentleman. The most beautiful soul. He said, if they don't care for you, they just accept your notice. if they like you and respect you and feel that you have a value they invite you to the Chinese room and they'll offer you money so I gave my notice and an hour goes by and I thought, okay, they'll just accept it an hour and a half, maybe two hours I'm called to the Chinese room and I'm offered more money and I said no and I was court-martialed on the spot.

19:21I had to leave from immediate effect. That's how personal the boys were. That's how much they'd invested in me. What's striking as well is that you talk about you found a new family and you'd left, by this time, you'd left home. Your father either had or was about to remarry. You were estranged from him, perhaps from your brothers too, I don't know. But this was your new family and you completely threw yourself in to your work life. You became totally dedicated. Girlfriends came and went, not so interested. Hobbies, pastimes don't really figure much. You were completely married to the kitchen.

19:58I was addicted to, you know, like people have addictions. Mother Nature, food became my addiction. It became the most important thing. I was so focused on just food. what they said to me was Marco we knew you would go all the way you were very different to every other boy that had walked through the kitchens of the box tree you had almost magic fill out of your fingers that's how they looked at me the way I put things on a plate the way I could coordinate but remember I was just replicating what had been shown by Michael Lawson yeah but sometimes replicating accurately exquisitely is a gift right one of the great cooks i worked for i was very privileged in life to work with some extraordinary individuals mag bourgeois held the highest position within the rue company he was the chef d 'honneur turned but if alba was away in france he'd go to assist at gavroche if chef alba was away he'd go assist old gavroche if koffman was away he could assist koffman extraordinary man he gave me the hardest time ever the hardest time ever he would stack the work so high so so high and i had to plow my way through that work and then do us and be ready for service what kind of thing like oh the the amount of mise en place he would make me do it make it almost impossible but because I was ruled and fuelled by my fears of failure, by my insecurities, I pushed myself through those pain barriers.

21:50I did everything. I did my job. I sat with him just before lockdown to have lunch with him and I said to Chef Mark, I said, Chef, Why did you treat me like a C-U-N-T when I was young? Its answer was the shortest. You know why, Mako. You know why. He knew that it was within me to win three stars. Can you subtract the bullying, if you want to call it that, and the cruelty, if you want to call it that, or just the brutality from the kitchen and still keep standards? I think what's important, the world is very different today. When I was a boy at La Gavroche, you were ruled like everybody else by emotion.

22:49And everyone had the same dream. And that dream was to win three stars in Michelin. That dream was to be part of a three-star Michelin or a two-star. the chef was your Pied Piper. We followed him. That's what Albert was, a Pied Piper. We never questioned him. We followed him. And those were the standards, and that's what we had to deliver at whatever cost. But, I mean, you talk in the book about Albert Roux jabbing at you with a ladle, for example. I think that's right, isn't it? Or a spoon. And you get pissed off. You're like, I've had enough. I think you walk out at that point. I walk out at that point.

23:31I went back, but I walked out on that occasion. When you look back on YouTube, I invite listeners to check out many of the old videos of you in the kitchen. I would say heaping invective or behaving. In fact, even in your book, you talk about your willingness to use appropriate language if you felt someone was falling down on the job. But to a dispassionate observer, it might seem cruel. lots of people don't understand our world it's not personal having worked your way through these uh kitchens and working at the highest level and picking something up whether it's from Raymond Blanc Albert Roux Pierre Kaufman Nico Ladini these these are legends of the London culinary scene then you you decide to set out and make your own restaurant at the tender age of what 27 was it?

24:2324 when I got Harvids. Was it? And so, and it was in South London. I was in South London. I was a 16-year-old or 15-year-old schoolboy. I remember it was strange because it wasn't considered a salubrious area. You were on the overlooking Wandsworth Common. It was at the very sort of beginning of the yuppie era. So I suppose things were changing. And there was this sort of clientele with cash to spend and wanting to be seen fine dining. One of the things you became perhaps most famous for alongside the food was your willingness to eject people from the establishment if you felt they were being rude.

25:00You had a procedure called, you called it the whoosh. Well, I didn't create that name, someone else did. The whoosh, really? I never created that. I think that was Jean-Christophe, my manager. But the reality is if customers were rude to the staff or customers were swearing or making scenes at the table, then they'd first be asked to be quiet and if they continued then they were asked to leave we never asked for the bill just please leave I don't know if you've ever been in a restaurant and people are behaving badly and that impacts on your table of course even if they're just very noisy it was on the news this morning wasn't it some lady who used to be a news presenter went to a restaurant or a hotel in Kent and the behaviour of a certain table sport their lunch but the proprietors or the management never did anything about it I think you have a duty and a responsibility to look after your clients everyone's there for a special reason whatever that reason may be whether it's a celebration whether it's birthday or an engagement who knows and you have four city boys if you think of I think they were called yuppies in the 80s and they behaved in a certain way and to the table next to them wasn't acceptable.

26:21So we'd ask them to refrain from swearing or being loud. They'd always say, look how much money we've spent this evening. They've missed the point. It wasn't about the money. They had to go. Would you come out and do it yourself or would your maitre d' do it? Sometimes it was myself or sometimes it was the maitre d'. If you say to someone, There's an account somewhere where one of your customers says, you've had a word with them, they say, you made me look like a cunt in front of my wife. No, what happened was, I'll tell you. So I arrive at the Mirabelle and Marion... This was a bit later, different restaurant.

27:03This was the Mirabelle. This would have been the early 2000s. And I walk to my office and there's Marion, the head receptionist, crying. And I said, why are you crying, Marion? And she said, the man on whatever table calls me a cunt. Right. I said, what table? And what was his name? So I go to his table. I said, good evening. I said, good evening. I said, do you have a problem? And this is word verbatim. He said, no, why do you ask? I said well would you like to step away from the table and we can have a private conversation he said no you can say it here so I said my head receptionist Marion is in my office crying I'm now going to give you five minutes to make the decision whether you wish to apologise or you leave I'll be in the bar and he came through to me and he said to me why did you make me look like a I said I didn't sir you did it to yourself have you made your decision he said we're leaving I said that's the best decision and the most sensible thing you've said this evening goodnight sir enjoy your evening in other versions he says you just made me look like a cunt in front of my wife and friends and you said that's because you are a cunt that's not true chapter 21 of your book but that's James Dean who's James Dean?

28:44he was the writer really? there's nothing wrong with poetic writers and you know it better than anybody Louis I don't have to tell you

29:05This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything, which is why you should lean on Shopify. With tools to design an eye-catching website that reaches customers, Shopify is the ultimate business partner with a built-in support system. And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store that matches your brand. There's hundreds of templates for you to use. Shopify even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing. See why businesses like Gymshark continue to trust Shopify. Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash louis, L-O-U-I-S.

29:53That's shopify.com slash louis.

30:08in the late 80s when you when harvey's was was was going you specialized in sumptuous food it was i'm trying to do justice to people if it was a if you were a singer we could play one of your songs If you were a filmmaker, we'd talk about the scenes from the films, maybe. As a gastronome or a chef, we just have to describe the food a little bit. The London Times restaurant critic Jonathan Meads visited Harvey's, and he said, I had brains on gelée followed by rabbit in langoustine sauce. It sounds decadent. You must have met Jonathan. I have, yeah, a few years ago. He was an extraordinary man. He was the most feared critic.

30:51Was he? The reality is, it was just me being very practical. But the combination of rabbit and Longsteins, look, the French have done chicken and crayfish, bouillé éclavisse, or lapel, or éclavisse, for years. It's just one of those delicious combinations which works. The coulis of éclavisse with the rabbit. It's very delicious. In that era, alongside your extraordinary culinary ability, was the fact that you were very good looking. I don't know about that. There's photographic evidence to prove it. But I still don't look at myself like that. I look at my children and think they're very beautiful.

31:41You were the rock star chef. Ah, yes. And you were in the middle of a lot of attention. Alan Crompton-Batt comes to see me and says, Marco, I'd like to do your PR. So Alan Crompton-Batt does my PR for me. Did he bring in, is it Bob Carlos? No. What's his name, the photographer? Bob Carlos Clark. Bob Carlos Clark, whose iconic images defined your mysterious allure. Well, they captured a moment in time within the world of gas. Always with a sharp knife looking vaguely murderous or with a cleaver lurking in front of a door. That was Bob. You weren't just a projection of his imagination. You had those qualities.

32:27Well, what happened was, so Alan Crompton-Batt now, and this is what I say, I always say Crompton-Batt and Bob Cullis-Clark created the modern-day chef. they created the celebrity chef, the two of them. That was you. I was their muse. You were the original, you were the originator. As I say, they captured a moment in time. The stars aligned in some way. And I suppose, see, one of my struggles was the hierarchy of my industry. They tried to suppress me. Who did? All of them. Name names. All the names we've spoken about already. Different ways your mentors, these French chefs based in London, tried to...

33:20Like Albert, for example. Albert Roux. Albert Roux. Who called you a genius. It's, I, um... Albert was fantastic. He, um... I won my first star, because he was my friend. I won my first star. and no one really felt threatened by one star. I remember Albert saying to me in 89, Marco, don't change your menu. Don't change it. Just refine it. And in January, you will win your two stars in Michelin. I never, ever, ever changed my menu. I refined it. But your point was, why did you, what was your point? They were trying to hold you back. Now we're getting to it. Now I win two stars in Michelin. Now the hierarchy, they're trying to stop things.