In short
How brands should evaluate, negotiate, and activate sports sponsorships in 2026—moving from “logo/exposure” to full-funnel measurement, authenticity, and flexible, always-on activations (including local entry deals).
Guests (backgrounds)
- Sam Kilgore, SVP Brand Solutions at Sponsor United; 18 years across leagues/teams/media and 10 years in sponsorship SaaS/valuation.
- Marquise Watts, worked brand side at Under Armour (2009–2015) and Adidas (global sports marketing); agency partnerships at Clutch Sports Group; C-suite at Minnesota Timberwolves (last 4 years).
- Chris Lobono, co-founder/CEO Athlete Driven Worldwide; 20 years at CBS Sports; leads athlete ambassador partnerships and global/North America sponsorship work.
- Elliot Christensen, SVP at Cleveland Construction (18 years); general contractor across the eastern U.S.
Key claims
- Most brands still buy first sponsorship “blind.”
- Success starts with defining outcomes (not budget), then building a pre-visualized activation plan.
- ROI must include activation, in-market overlap, digital engagement, and “lift/recall,” not just impressions/valuation.
- Speed-of-culture and 365 venue storytelling are increasingly required.
Notable examples
- Nike’s rapid Knicks-related commercial; Levi’s World Cup “cut-out” logo workaround; Heinz “tape” social moment.
- Lululemon’s 7-figure Jordan Clarkson partnership (sold out quickly).
- Cleveland Construction’s planned NFL-aligned activations tied to real stadium/venue building.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOPanelist Introductions
0:45 to 2:03
The speakers introduce themselves and share their backgrounds in sponsorship marketing.
“and why local activations might be the smartest entry point for brands not ready to write a huge tag.”
Data Insights on Sponsorships
2:03 to 5:50
Discussion on the data trends in sponsorships for 2026 and how they have evolved.
“I'm the SVP of Brand Solutions at Sponsor United.”
Understanding Sponsorship ROI
5:50 to 7:53
Exploration of how brands misunderstand sponsorship costs and ROI expectations.
“Well, I guess it kind of depends on what you're looking at data for.”
Creating Successful Partnerships
7:53 to 10:55
Panelists discuss the importance of defining success and visualizing partnerships before signing deals.
“Well, first, I'd like to say, piggyback on what Sam just said, I think like I look at sports marketing now, where when I first got in 15, 20 years ago, it's now it's just a cost center, right?”
Elliot's First Sports Sponsorship
10:55 to 14:00
Elliot shares his motivations and goals for pursuing his first sports sponsorship.
“And that's what ensures a successful partnership.”
Building the Future of NFL Stadiums
14:00 to 16:44
Learn about the evolution of NFL stadiums and the concepts behind modern multi-use venues.
“saying that, hey, Cleveland can build you a 10-story, 300-room hotel.”
The Shifting Landscape of Sponsorships
16:44 to 18:53
Discover key trends in sponsorships and how brands are adapting to new opportunities.
“So both Marquise and Chris said two things that are actually like really showing in the data right now.”
The Importance of Cultural Relevance
18:53 to 21:12
Understand how brands are leveraging cultural moments for effective marketing.
“And you also have to evaluate them going into a partnership a little bit differently.”
Navigating Athlete and Team Sponsorships
21:12 to 24:00
Explore the complexities of partnering with athletes versus teams in marketing.
“No, I was just going to piggyback on Levi.”
Successful Partnerships: Case Studies
24:00 to 28:00
Examine successful brand partnerships and the principles behind their success.
“I know we talked a lot about teams and stadiums right now.”
Show all 23 chapters
The Importance of Authenticity in Sponsorships
28:00 to 29:31
Explore how authenticity impacts athlete endorsements and brand partnerships.
“You need to have that conversation about success and that's how it comes up.”
Navigating Brand Partnerships with Integrity
29:31 to 31:48
Learn why aligning with values and authenticity is crucial in partnerships.
“I just saw Novak Djokovic talk about that, too, how he turned down so many multifigure partnerships.”
The Power of Saying No: Strategic Decision Making
31:48 to 33:52
Understand the importance of rejecting misaligned opportunities for growth.
“But it's just when you remove bottlenecks to your day, we all have busy schedules.”
The Role of Storytelling in Brand Collaborations
33:52 to 36:33
Discover how storytelling enhances the effectiveness of sponsorship deals.
“I've got a niece that runs track, uh, uh, uh, division one and super successful.”
Leveraging Intellectual Property in Sponsorships
36:33 to 40:28
Learn about maximizing IP usage in sponsorship deals for greater impact.
“I think it starts, to Marquis's point, with authenticity.”
Measuring ROI in Sponsorships
40:28 to 42:13
Understand key performance indicators for evaluating sponsorship success.
“Some are learning, but a lot are still in the space.”
Understanding Sponsorship ROI Metrics
42:13 to 44:14
Learn about the key metrics sponsors should track to evaluate the success of their partnerships.
“I think you'll see more and more of that, especially in venues.”
Long-Term vs Short-Term ROI in Sponsorships
44:14 to 47:16
Explore how brands assess ROI over short and long-term partnerships within sports.
“And if you're trying to break into a space, it's a great place to play.”
Impact of Community Perception on Sponsorship
47:16 to 51:26
Discuss the importance of community impact and perception in evaluating sponsorship ROI.
“Understand But Sam said this, and I know Elliott knows this, and what's the impact of the community, right?”
Leveraging Brand Rights and IP in Sponsorship
51:26 to 54:54
Understand how brands can maximize their sponsorship deals through effective use of intellectual property and rights.
“what are some of the asks you feel are most often left on the table?”
Testing Localized Marketing Strategies
54:54 to 56:00
Learn about the effectiveness of localized strategies in sponsorship and marketing.
“When their signage in the front yard has it on the piece with their logo, like it built a combined logo for visibility.”
Evaluating Local Sponsorships
56:00 to 58:28
Learn how localization testing can enhance the effectiveness of brand sponsorships.
“is like localization testing is the best because you can see uplift in localization.”
Small to Big Brand Partnerships
58:28 to 59:52
Discover the spectrum of brand partnerships from small teams to international campaigns.
“you know, on the small side, I think teams, social medias are phenomenal ways to economically do a partnership.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Sponsor United tracks 3.1 million sponsorship deals and even with all of that data this panel agreed on one thing. Most brands still buy their first sponsorship blind. Welcome back to another episode. This one's a live panel I hosted on sponsorship marketing with a stack lineup. Sam Kilgore from Sponsor United, who's seen every side of the deal. Marquise Watts, who's worked team, agency, and brand, including Under Armour, Adidas, Clutch Sports Group, and previously the Minnesota Timberwolves. Elliot and Chris, walking through the real partnerships they built together. We get into what's working in sponsorship right now, how to test a deal on a small budget, and why local activations might be the smartest entry point for brands not ready to write a huge tag.
0:52Let's get into this event. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray. And join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the f*** up. What is up? What is up, everybody? Welcome, welcome. I think we can get started. I first want to thank everybody for coming. um sponsorship is one of those channels that you can run a brand play demand play experience retail activations all together which is super cool and super interesting channel and a super cool valuable channel if you do the right things so i want to start let the our our speakers introduce themselves so i'm going to start with sam first sam you want to give a little intro who you are um and all your experience because sam's been on all sides of the deal seeing everything.
2:02Absolutely. Thank you so much, Daniel. I'm Sam Kilgore. I'm the SVP of Brand Solutions at Sponsor United. I've got about 18 years in the sports media and entertainment space. I have worked at the league side, on team side, in racing, in the Olympics, and on the media side. But my last 10 years have been specifically in SaaS tech startup in the sponsorship space, both with valuation and now with Sponsor United. I'm just measuring the entire sponsorship landscape. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with everyone just to share my experience across the board. Amazing. Thank you, Sam. Marquise, you want to share a little bit about yours?
2:36I know you've been at a sports team. You've been at a big brand. Now you're working with your own shop. You work with some of the biggest athletes in the world. So you want to give a little background about who you are? Yeah. Thanks for having me. Marquise Watts, I have I've been on the brand side at both Under Armour when they started from 09 to 2015. Then I ran global sports marketing for Adidas for four years. Then I was on the agency side. I built the marketing partnerships for a club sports group for four years. And then the last four years, then C-suite for the Minnesota Timberwolves. So my little claim to fame is I think in sports right now, I'm the only exec that has been on all three sides at Execter, Sweet Sweet level, team, agency, and brand.
3:30So that's kind of my deal. Yeah. And Marquis, he's going to share some cool stories about that on the talk today. And then I have the duo who created a cool partnership. We're going to talk about how that came about. um elliot you want to give a little background who you are and then we'll knock it over to chris yeah um elliot christensen thanks for having me i'm a senior vice president for cleveland construction um been here for 18 years we're a general contractor that works on the eastern half of the united states we do everything from k through 12 to hospitality multi-family retail the closest thing i have to sports marketing is being a fan of pretty much all sports so So that is about all I can offer on that part of my expertise.
4:21I mean, also, you do a good deal. So I think your expertise is starting to raise up a little bit. I'm leaning on Chris's expertise for that. And Chris, could you give the background of who you are? Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Daniel. Chris Lobono, head of partnership, CEO. I co-founded Athlete Driven Worldwide. So I sit on the agency side over the last six years, working with amazing clients like Elliott and Cleveland Construction, among others. And my background is was on the sports media side at CBS Sports for about 20 years, really working with brands to help them tell athlete stories and working with a lot of players, primarily in NFL and NBA with athlete ambassador partnerships, activating that through media nationally and athlete storytelling.
5:16and the last six years have been working at Athlete Driven Worldwide, leading partnerships and working with our clients for partnerships in North America and global. Amazing. I want to kick this off, Sam, because I know you're the data person here and you sponsor United tracks so many data points. You've seen over 3.2 million deals. There's more than 25 million data points that is tracked and sponsored United. What does the data say that's actually working in 2026 that wasn't working a few years ago? Well, I guess it kind of depends on what you're looking at data for. Data can tell any story you're looking to tell.
6:02So you need to know what you're asking of it before you just go use it, right? I would say historically, people were looking at sponsorships. It was very much the exposure impression metrics were kind of the big player. There was still oftentimes the conversation of our C-suite likes to see the logo, right? Or we want to support our hometown. And that was a relationship play. And it still exists. But there's a lot more driving CMO, CFO relationship on that. What is bottom line? How are we moving the needle now in sponsorship? So I think you're seeing a lot more full funnel measurement of sponsorship, like activation, in-market overlap, like growth in market where you're putting sponsorship positions.
6:35You know, that's going to marry with your media spend and how it's aligning to like your full portfolio of spend for sponsorships. And then you're still going to see everything that's traditional, right? You're going to look at valuation. You're going to look at, you know, your demographics, your audience numbers, like all of those pieces that play. But now they're just a piece of this whole puzzle in comparison to being like the story historically. The other thing I think is starting to shift a little bit is actual cost versus valuation. So what are we spending and getting an ROI versus what are we expecting to see in return?
7:05because those numbers have been, for lack of a better term, like throwing darts at a wall to figure out where are you starting and where are you ending up? And so being able to roll back into saying that this is what we actually have physically invested with our agency, with our partnership, with our activation. And then how do we carry that over into, is this driving the value we want? And those values vary by the type of partnership you choose. I think it's good to talk about that numbers part of it. And I know Marquis has some insight in that too, because I know you've been in all sides of the deal, as you said at the beginning, agency, brand, at an actual franchise.
7:42So what do you see brands consistently misunderstand most when they're actually going to buy their first sponsorship deal or buying a sponsorship deal? Well, first, I'd like to say, piggyback on what Sam just said, I think like I look at sports marketing now, where when I first got in 15, 20 years ago, it's now it's just a cost center, right? Like when you look at like brands and teams and now say, oh, before it was nobody checked on what you spent or whatever, or you couldn't really quantify the ROI. They didn't even know it was just like logos. Well, that's what we're supposed to pay. And now when it's a cost center, you are now being smarter and you have to look at like what that ROI is, right?
8:26And so I think for me, I think the first thing, if you're going into your first deal, you need to, you don't start a conversation and say, well, what's the budget or what's the fee? Whether it's if you're on the team side or if you're an agent or a brand and you're like, well, we just have this to pay, right? Because that, you can't get the full breadth of it. And also I think it doesn't matter what their fee is or what the budget, you gotta look at the overall, like, so it sounds like, what are you gonna do as far as activation? So it's like given experience, like when I was at Adidas, if I go sign somebody and pay them$5 million a year, but I have no media and I've got no spend and I have no storytelling, as Chris knows, then I'm not getting anything out of it.
9:12I just cut a check and that's the end. And so the amount of money that you have to look at in a totality about like, what are we doing for activation? And then more importantly, whoever we're aligning with, do they actually want to be activated? And then they believe in said brand team or whatever it is. You know, Chris, you also had some insight of like when someone signs their first deal, what they what they need to think about or when they bought a real partnership. What is the first thing that they're thinking about? They should be thinking about when they sign the first partnership. yeah i mean um thanks i you know i think what we i could just at least tell you how we work i mean i try to manifest thoughts into reality so before we bring anything to a client it's like fully formed um so it's almost like we're not playing defense after we have a partnership live and it's like all right now how do we get an athlete now what's the story that's all the like fully formed six months before we sign any deal.
10:14So I'd say like, take time to create something, visualize it, right? Think about, see pictures about what it looks like when we do that activation, what the theme is going to be in the partnership, make it into a reality becomes a lot easier when you can see it before it happens, meet with the client, understand what success looks like. the first question we ask when doing a needs analysis to Marquis point, it's not what's your budget. It's how do you define success? What keeps you up at night as a marketer and then just be quiet and let them talk because that's where the gold happens. And that's what ensures a successful partnership.
11:02And, and Chris, I'd say that I think every partnership or every deal that I started to have has always happened at a game. It started off of like an inspiration for right. So when people all say, if I'm going to meet somebody, a client, or like I'm not doing it in our conference room generally, and I'm not doing it because it doesn't, like you said, give the feel of storytelling. Like you said, what keeps you up at night or what's the visualization? And then that's usually where the magic happens. And then you build off of that. And that's where you use our expertise to try to bring it to life.
11:40But you're so right spot on. I want to also kick it off to Elliot, because I know you are looking at your first sports partnership, sports sponsorship coming up this year. And you went to Chris. What was the need for this first sponsorship? Why did you look at a sports sponsorship? And what were the questions you were thinking about would make a great partnership? or sponsorship for you? We're really looking to just grow, grow the company, grow the brand. We're already a national contractor. We work across the eastern half of the United States. And we do a lot of work that, you know, we had started to hear that these NFL teams are starting to do.
12:28And like Chris said, some of these projects that they did, we didn't know that those are the types of projects that NFL owners were looking to do. So we wanted to start putting our name out there and grow it in a way that we could help. And we think that with this partnership, we can do things like work on employee retention, work on recruiting. Our name will be out there within a circle of people in the construction industry. football is a pretty big topic on a job site come Monday morning or, you know, Tuesday morning after the Monday night game. There's hard hats that are, you know, branded for football teams that you see on every job.
13:15And we think that there's a really good opportunity to pull good talent for us as an organization. And this is just a unique way to go about it. Not to mention, And, you know, we want an authentic partnership. So if we're going to be the general contractor of a team, we want to build things. We don't want to have just a paper partnership. And, you know, I heard the example of Adidas before. You know, if you sign a deal with Adidas and then you wear Nike shoes, I mean, it's not really an authentic partnership. So, you know, we want to do work out of it, too. So we want to have our banners on those projects.
13:59And some of our best sales come from clients that are going to build a hotel driving past one of our hotels that we're building, saying that, hey, Cleveland can build you a 10-story, 300-room hotel. And this NFL owner trusted them to do it. Why wouldn't I? And that's kind of what we're looking for. Chris, could you describe, Elliot comes to you, he's looking for his first deal. Could you walk me through how you were scoped out the NFL teams, what that process looks like from your side when you're talking to, showing him all the different options based on what he said success looks like to him?
14:43Yeah, thanks, Daniel. You know, I think we're at a reset time in the NFL. In the late 90s, you saw a lot of building happening, construction of new stadiums. These stadiums are, with technology advancing as much as it has, are becoming a stadium of the past. And what we're finding is there are a lot of teams right now and soon to be that are building the 2.0, the stadium of the future. But what they're becoming, and the NFL owners are understanding this, and we've got deep relationships in the league. and you know really what we try to do is make warm introductions to our clients that teams that are about to have a shovel hit the ground and are building the 365 venue that is not just a new stadium state-of-the-art stadium but it's a mixed-use space it's multi-family luxury hotel retail um music venue live music venues are massive and it's it's not just sports but these owners are understanding it's a 365 sports and entertainment model that is here to stay.
15:52And there are teams that we work with that we've identified as, you know, something that we should really bring to our clients because it becomes a very authentic story when you match up and solve, you know, what's keeping up the owner at night. Well, it's how do we get the best people on the job to build our 365 stadium and venue of the future. And then you bring in a best in class client like Cleveland construction, who operates on a national level with some of the best contractors and subs in the country. And you marry up those two parties, um, you know, that defines success. And, um, Sam, I know you have some trends that support this, um, of what Chris is saying, you want to go a little bit of like the data side of like what, what he's saying?
16:44Yeah. So both Marquise and Chris said two things that are actually like really showing in the data right now. And in conversations we're having with both brands and rights holders, you know, three really big trends that have started, but are really gaining traction and positioning for sponsorships are that authentically core to the team or the event. And I use event very big because like Chris just said, it's now a 365 multipurpose venue, the rise in festivals and, you know, pop up one off kind of things have become a really big sponsorship investment, almost equal at some of the big players to what they're spending in sports.
17:18So how that kind of aligns and they're not wanting just a logo slap or just signage, they're wanting to power something that impacts that. So like a beverage company owning a party bar at a music venue where it's like unique and they're, you know, private or a VIP experience at something, or if you're construction, like being the builder behind an area that's related, or if you're a technology company, being the person who is providing the data and the powering, you see that with AWS, the NFL, like things like that, that is trending more and more towards being the reason that partnerships extend.
17:51And it's also looking for activations that actually happen beyond a season. So how can we engage clients in a partnership, their audience beyond the field of play? What can we do in the offseason? What can we do digitally? What can we build to be something that's interactive with our commercial components? So those things really connect. The third one, and this is the one that I found so unique, and I saw a lot of it happen around the NBA finals with the Knicks. And I've seen a lot of it start with the World Cup. And that is brands wanting to move at the speed of culture. So having a flexibility partner who can go in and adjust digital signage in a 24 to 36 hour turn so that what's happening in venue reflects what's happening in the world, especially in a city where things are moving quickly.
18:35And that didn't exist. I mean, 10 years ago, you printed signage. You may have had a flat digital rotation. There wasn't a lot of adjustment even five years ago. So post-COVID, you're seeing a lot more need to be able to change quickly. And I think that's now becoming a table stakes conversation when you enter the space. And so those trends are really driving sponsorship forward. And there are things that you can track, but you have to track in a much different way. And you also have to evaluate them going into a partnership a little bit differently. Like how important is that element for you?
19:02You know, it's also interesting. And I think we talked about this offline, but we talk about the importance of sponsorships of of stadiums and but and moving the mix with the speed of culture. And you kind of seeing this at the World Cup right now with some brands are moving at the speed of culture. And they aren't even the official sponsors of the World Cup. I know, Marquis, you brought up one of the biggest ones that happened. Do you want to talk a little bit about, like, just, like, having a brand so well-known, like, you could, what's happening at the World Cup right now? Well, I think, and taking back to what Sam said, like, you have to always say now you want to pick partnerships that you can be nimble, right?
19:46And so, to her point, if you think about World Cup or NBA finals, five years ago, if you had a campaign or you're waiting for somebody to win or something to happen, it would take you two weeks, three weeks, a month to come out with that campaign, shoot the spot, shoot the commercial. You saw as soon as the Knicks won, Nike already had the commercial and the fact that they did it using authentic players, fans, celebrities on the run of the playoffs, right? Which is something that storytelling in real time is something that you, it's like brand marketing, right? Because it's an emotion. And I think that like to touch on World Cup, you think about FIBA's rules about not letting logos be on their stadiums and then Levi's Stadium, right?
20:37They cover up their logo and it's the best thing on social right now because a brand like Levi's understands like the way they cut it out. They could have just put it, they cut it out in their logo. And then I just saw that they're going to do a, like, I think they're going to have a capsule of their juice with that cut out white logo. So they take that and then connect it and run with it through the world cup, which is like a genius, you know, it's like in the moment, what can I take and what do we, you know, do with it? And I mean, we're talking about speed of culture, Sam, I'll let you. No, I was just going to piggyback on Levi.
21:13And I'm sure Chris, you probably have thoughts, But you've also seen now like Heinz, you know, Heinz ketchup and the tape on the bottles. People don't notice ketchup and mustard and things like in a condiment area. But all of a sudden it's a story and it's all over social and it's moving. And you had other brands jump in on the trend and like, I create things like that that became a digital conversation. So, again, that idea of being able to jump in and move is such a really valid play and such a huge impact on how partnerships can drive. and you're talking about Levi's and Heinz to the oldest, right?
21:46So it's like they've had rebirth in the fact that they've learned in their marketing teams how to capitalize on moments. Chris, what are some things you're seeing of like the payback of Sam and Marquis of like the nimbleness of brands moving at the speed of culture? How do you think about like setting up partnerships So they have that flexibility that when a brand comes in, they have that flexibility to do these cool things. And it's not you see also the negative of the World Cup, not negative, but like some brands just sponsor the World Cup to sponsor the World Cup and have no like storytelling behind it.
22:26You don't know why their brand is on there. You don't even know why they're there. You just see their logo, which is different than some brands that are integrated very well with the World Cup. and you see storytelling moments. So just to piggyback on both what Sam and Marquise are saying. Yeah, I mean, Sam Marquise, spot on. I mean, I think it's like the old school and then the new school. I mean, the old school you referenced, it's like logo slaps. And, you know, that's going away slowly and slowly. And someday it'll be completely gone. I think, well, at least I could speak from our experience at Athlete Driven.
23:03We work with a lot of tech clients, a lot of infrastructure, construction clients. And the client's feedback to us is we want to tell the story as the tech's being implemented with the team. So on the construction side, as it's being built, we would like storytelling around how that engages the fan, how what's being built right now is going to affect the fan experience next year or two years or five years from now because fans are very smart and they want to get involved with a team and a team story and if you can have the brand sit at that intersection of that story in a real authentic way not just the logo slap you know that's white noise to people but an authentic way that's engaging that's a home run for the brand also marquis i want to to talk about a little bit about like you working with athletes and brands i know you have a story about that but also like there's such a difference of when you sponsor a team versus a player on the team because a lot of a lot of teams have rules that like if you sponsor a team you only can do marketing within a certain range but if you have a player you can do a national campaign some teams have those rules so like i know you you have a story of like lululemon and an athlete partnership You want to talk a little bit about working with athletes?
24:29I know we talked a lot about teams and stadiums right now. Well, I'd say in general with partnership, if you're looking at an athlete and your team or another side, don't do a big brand deal if you can't have any of the athletes, right? Because you can't tell the full story. So if I've got or vice versa, if I've got the athlete, but I got no marks and I got no ability to activate them in arena or whatever, it doesn't make sense. So generally nowadays you want to make if you get both in any type of way, one plus one will equal 10 in that sense. But when you when you do deals with athletes, I think specifically you have to understand it goes back to if your brand, who who you are and what you are trying to be a part of there.
25:20And people will say, like, when you do an individual partnership, there are always more risks just because you are betting on that person. If they get in trouble or if they retire or if they get hurt, you have to take all those things in consideration. I will say that like athlete partnerships and, you know, influencer partnerships, if you want to throw that over the last 10 years are much safer and better and continue to grow. And then I think the second thing I've always said, like I gave you offline example back in 2019. I knew like Lululemon was looking to get into they needed like a male ambassador.
26:00They had been known as yoga and lifestyle and whatnot, and they wanted to expand. And I started having conversations with them about going into the NBA. And at the time, I had a big roster at Clutch Sports of NBA guys. And it took basically all of COVID, 2020, and we came up with a partnership that they did with Jordan Clarkson. And the reason why that worked is because if you know Jordan Clarkson, he played in Missouri. He's from Texas, but he is the epicenter of fashion, sport and culture. At the time, he was the NBA Sixth Man of the Year. And yep. And somebody said he just won a championship with the Knicks.
26:43But Jordan is a guy that like was authentic. Initially, if you are a traditional Lulu fan or patron, you're like, does that work? What you saw is the power of social and authenticity. And to Lulu's credit, what they did is once we did the deal, and at the time it was the biggest deal, seven-figure deal that they had ever done with an athlete, that they made it authentic to him. So the product, the capsule, and everything. And so when they launched, I mean, basically their site crashed and everything sold out within the first thing that he had. It was like a tunnel where and it was just a beautiful partnership that they still have today.
27:23I was in New York last week and every bus station or if you go a little, there's there's his print all over the place. So that was one. But that was a brand that wanted to take a chance, but also took the time to understand what they were getting into. because I was also a big commitment of money. Yeah, I think that's a super cool thing you did. And also, I think sometimes when you, like you said, that wouldn't have came up if you just put one plus one in budget and didn't talk, like that went beyond what they were thinking. You need to have that conversation about success and that's how it comes up.
28:06But what Chris is an expert on and what Sam's expert on, like, you have to have the data behind it to understand what you're getting into. But then you also have to understand, can you imagine in a storytelling, the whole thing has to, that has to fit because if you don't, and I would say at the beginning, I said, don't ask like, what's the budget. The other thing I say on the other side is all money and good money. Like you have to understand that, like, as an athlete on the other side, you don't just take a check if you don't believe in it. You hear all those stories about guys that don't drink sugar and would do sugary energy drinks, but wouldn't even drink them on set, right?
28:50That's so authentic or unauthentic. And it's like, don't take the money. And especially now in sports, all of them, WNBA across the board, everyone is making a lot more money. So don't take the money just because. And I think if you have that guideline going in as an agent, as a brand, as an athlete, you'll be able to create great things. And lastly, some people will do things regardless of the money because they just believe in it. They just love it so much and it's authentic. Or their little brother is in it or sister or their kids or their wife. And so that's where you doing research and data will show that's the insights that you want to go after.
29:37Yeah. I just saw Novak Djokovic talk about that, too, how he turned down so many multifigure partnerships. And he even said, like, I turned down, I guess, sugary drink partnership because he authentically doesn't drink sugary drinks. And he didn't want to be inauthentic to his fans and the sport if he took that partnership. So I thought really good insight about authenticity and partnerships. Sam, I know you have something to add on. Yeah, I was just going to say on that same concept, and NIL is a big player here because a lot of youth, and I say kids, they're grownups, but they're still learning who they are as adults, right?
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30:15They've never had this kind of income or dollars or exposure. They get more opportunities to take dollars than they ever have before. but what they haven't recognized or starting to now that we've been exposed long enough is that your life is now public all the time. And so that inauthicity shows up and it shows up quickly in ways where historically you might've been able to hide that you didn't drink that drink or didn't wear those shoes or whatever. But now every kid on campus is a media reporter. There's stuff showing up, there's pictures, your brain is going to get notified. Logo detection online for brands and marketing agencies and research centers are really, really able to track all of this stuff quickly.
30:49And so recognizing that is truly important. I had, I spent a couple of years running a collective before I came back into the tech world. And I had an athlete who did a deal on his own. And I was very proud of him. He pitched himself, he built his story, did a great job. And then he came back and the deal was a piece for pizza. He's lactose intolerant. He did not eat cheese. And so I said, okay, hold on, we're going to put a stop. Let's find out if there's something in this chain that actually works for you, besides the fact that it will cook up you and your boys with, you know, all the pizza you want for the rest of the year.
31:18And we did find out actually, they had a dairy free gluten free pizza option. And that's what he ate. And we totally flipped the campaign for that local business to focus on that for him. But then the delivery of the pizza for all his boys who would be a part of that deal anyway, and it became a much more valuable piece for both the brand and the athlete. So figuring out that authenticity layer really, really matters in the long run, as far as making deals more successful, as well as like keeping things in a place where you don't get called out for like inauthentic plays and money grabs. That's a great point.
31:50I think I wanted to just chime in here. You know, it's so great to say no to something, you know, thank you, but no, that could be on the agency side, taking on client work that maybe it's, it's not a great fit and it's not kind of what you do, but you want the business and it could be on the athlete side, you know, to Marquis point, you know, on not authentic, but representing a brand that you don't believe in. But it's just when you remove bottlenecks to your day, we all have busy schedules. It'd be if you remove a couple of bottlenecks of things that, well, maybe you shouldn't do that one, or maybe, you know, I don't believe in that one.
32:30It frees you up to, to, for new opportunities to come in. and you know for our work with with Elliot and Cleave Construction it's it's something that you know this is what we do day in and day out is authentically form partnerships with teams that are working partnerships that take what the client does embeds it within the team organization and then helps the team scale its enterprise and then helps the brand, to Elliot's point, increase their hiring, do client entertainment, bring clients to a game and say, we built this. Wouldn't it be great if we can do this deal for you? And storytelling around that with athletes and NFL owners, It's just great to sometimes you don't have to say yes to everything, you know, say no a couple of times.
33:29And it's amazing what comes in. Well, that's a great point. And even with, you know, I've been fortunate enough to work with some of the biggest athletes in the world, especially when I was at Clutch. And I would say that like when you there's so many times they say no more than you say yes. Right. Because that's what makes you think if you're just doing everything and you're a NASCAR, I'd say you don't want to be NASCAR as an athlete. and to the touch on sam what you were saying about nil my roles at under armor and adidas and i tell people when i was on that side like i was the original nil like because shoe companies before your values i sponsored all of the 707 all of the aau teams all the coaches all of the events we could fly kids around and all that type of things and i would say that like now that they're actually getting actual cash.
34:25I've got a niece that runs track, uh, uh, uh, division one and super successful. And I had a conversation with her. I said, wait a minute. So you've got a brand that you, you want this brand for your footwear partner. She's a triple jumper and a long jumper and she's really good and won a bunch of conference championships. But the other, this other startup brand and no would wanted to give her cash or whatever. I said, but you don't want to, you don't jump in that shoe or you don't like that shoe or that their apparel, why would you take it? Well, just for the money. I said, no. And then what happens is that's not fair to the brand because they want you to believe in a little.
35:04And to your point, Sam, you're around campus and you go to school with 20 ,000, 30 ,000 other reps, and you're all on your devices all the time. The moment they see you in the facility or whatever, not with those shoes on, it's going to blow you up. And then And other brands don't want to work with you because they're like, oh, you just take the check. No, don't just take the check. There's always more opportunity down the line. Again, old money ain't good money. Elliot, I want to go into I know you you said your goals were growth and your goals were brand on this partnership. But could you go in internally?
35:41Like what was the decision making process like to even get to sports partnerships? Like, what were you doing before? And then why did that start coming in the conversation for Cleveland Construction? Well, it had a lot to do with Chris. It was really eye-opening with what some of the opportunities were. And him really helping us think outside the box on bigger things. You know, we looked at it for hiring. We looked at it for, you know, local exposure and, you know, what it could mean for, you know, from growth as a whole. But even Chris said, hey, these teams have partnerships. They have other sponsors.
36:24Those sponsors build buildings. They can get you in the door with those other sponsors. And those other sponsors are people that, you know, we're experts in what they need us to build. so there's there was like an when that clicked our ownership got on board pretty quickly um and it was a it was like an aha moment that there's a bigger opportunity here than what we had originally seen um chris i want to go to the because one thing i'm hearing on both sides of this the coin is one thing is like the partnership has to have a lot of storytelling and integration when you have but also like could you talk about how you chris how you talk to brands how to storytell this internally um because that's the other side of the deal is like you you you story told it really well about there's other sponsors the the owners and all this stuff how do you like when you talk to brands put together a storytelling proposal that they can bring to owners to get them to spend the money to make sure that this is a great sponsorship for them?
37:31I think it starts, to Marquis's point, with authenticity. I think it's starting with a positive attitude. I mean, I don't surround myself with naysayers. I like to say, we can do this. I think we could do this. Let's start today. Let's roll up our sleeves. Let's come up with the best storytelling idea that we can. So in Cleveland Construction's example, it's, it's, it's building in real time that, you know, projects will take several years to, to complete. And who are the people doing that, right? What's it, what's it take just like a football team? Uh, what's it take for contractors to communicate, right?
38:18There's all different positions. I mean, you play ball, it's different positions on the field, different positions at a job site. So that's a story right there that, that we, we like in rolling up our sleeves on, like, what's that story? How does that, how do teams communicate? And then how are the ownership groups involved? How are the heads of operation at the teams involved? What's their role? Because they're kind of the quarterback on the field. This has to be built here. We're building this hotel here. The music venue is going to be going here. Who are, who are the clients? Who are the brands that are doing that then you take the marketing rights um with with the marketing rights with the team and you put that into a whole content series with with clean construction and it becomes very authentic and really engaging to to the fans because they want to see their future being built it's a really unique window that they get that you know it's it's a modern story it's a new way brands are telling stories, you know, to your point, as opposed to a logo slap, which, you know, if it's not done now, it's going to be done pretty soon.
39:27It's a cost center and it's what you're paying for. It's got to have a lot of miles to it. Oh, go ahead, Sam. No, I was just going to say, Chris, you mentioned marketing rights. And I was just going to flag that one of the things that I think gets left on the table way too often is the lack of leveraging IP to the ability that it's there. You get IP in a lot of larger sponsorship deals and you only use it at the venue or you don't take it other places or you don't look for pieces in those contracts that allow you to maybe bring a player or do one team activation or things along those lines, they really get left on the table.
39:58I think people who do it really well, oftentimes are Olympic sponsors because it's clean venue. So they have to use the IP in other places, but colleges really leave it on the table. And then even some NFL overlap, I've seen a lot of pro where you just look in and go like, why are you not putting this, you know, in your storefronts or with your teams and people are putting it on your jerseys for your employees? Like, why are you not using this in a way that you can really extend the story. Right. Sam, you're so, like, I think colleges, especially, right, in this new world, they, I would say, they don't know how to monetize their assets and their IP.
40:29Some are learning, but a lot are still in the space. And I was in a college arena for a football game last year. Ohio State actually happened to be playing. They were on the road. And I was amazed at how they had this, They probably had 20, 30 amazing suites, but there was no integration with IP or brand. And I'm like, you just have great TVs, great food, but there's so much that could be done here that you're just leaving on the table. And then, Krista, what you said, I think this goes to what Elliot does and what he was saying about, like, if you're a construction partner. If you are all in it, and I've learned this, brands should actually be clapping for other brands and partners, right?
41:18Because if you're building an amazing stadium, I want that whatever that brand, if it's whatever the cell phone or telecommunications partner is the name of rights, I want them to be as great because then that levels everything up and it's a win-win. And I know, Chris, you've done it. And Sam, you probably done. And then when you get those key stakeholders in the same room, then you start to imagine like, oh, we can play together. Whereas I think 10 years ago, everybody was like, this is my ball and I want to take it and I need all this. And what do I get out of it? And then now that it is a cost center, when I was on the other side and had to manage a budget and I say, if I've got a partnership, oh, you mean Samsung or whoever it is is going to come in and we can one plus one this thing and make it greater and split the cost?
42:14I'm all in. Right. And that's the new way. I think you'll see more and more of that, especially in venues. you should at least. Tim, I know traditionally like these sponsorships were really hard to track and it was hard to like figure out like what the ROI I'm getting from the sponsorships because you talk a little bit about like those measurement points that like sponsors should be tracking to make sure that they like they aren't they're doing all these integrations and they aren't a logo slab because at the end of the day like you can become a logo slab if you, one, don't know what the metrics going in and what your success looks like, as Chris said, and what your KPIs are.
42:54And on the other side, like you're not tracking it in the back end. So could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, going back to like understanding the success conversation at the very beginning is really going to set up what you need to be tracking, right? There are the table stake things we talked about, like you're going to have exposures, you're going to have your media by your windows, you know, all of those little, those pieces, but you're also going to have intangible elements like, you know, hospitality and ticketing and the lifting or saving in cost or lifting costs like employee engagement.
43:22If you're a big player, community impact, are you building programs that have a legacy that in carry on and have conversations beyond the sports space? Where are you putting those? How are you tracking attendance? How are you tracking follow through? Is it beyond just news and PR hit? There's the elements of like, what are the assets that I'm getting? And are those assets delivering what I want from them. Like, do I have a digital footprint that allows me to engage with a client following, you know, or an audience following a game or following a season? Do I know how many times that client is on that team's website or on that team's app?
43:55How often they, how long they spend on that time. So I'm getting an idea of what those interactions look like. Does that market align to my market? So understanding what you're targeting as your business and did your sponsorship, you know, positioning align with what your business objectives are. So there's a lot of needs and understanding what your goal is, there are true awareness plays that are still unbelievably valuable in sports because you are seen, you are highly visible. And if you're trying to break into a space, it's a great place to play. If you're in a market where you're trying to keep competitors out, it's also a great place to play.
44:25I'm going to use an example right now and the alcohol brands as a whole, communities are drinking less. You wouldn't agree that from the Scottish coming for the world cup, but in general, communities are drinking less, especially the younger age group. And so now there's this value of, well, how impactful is it for us to be the only supplier of an alcohol in a venue? Because there are like 12 categories of alcohol. Do we want to keep our competitors out completely because it's going down and we need to find some brand loyalty lift that doesn't exist anymore? There's a lot of things you should look at, figuring out what those are up front and what your goals are and the things that matter.
44:59And then backing yourself in with your agency partner and your technology partners to figure out what do I need to be measuring? How often do I need to measure it? And then the one thing that comes up late, it always happens at the end, you're not thinking about as you go through is what does lift or recall really mean to your business when you say ROI, right? Exposure, we understand. Valuation, we understand. But impact, impact is the thing that's very variant depending on what your objectives are. So if you understand what lift means for you and you define that, then you can measure against it.
45:28If you can't measure it, though, it's sometimes not worth doing. And so if you say brand awareness is your play, then what do you measure for awareness? And that, you know, besides just impressions, viewership, you know, attendance. So what else is there in play that can have an impact of that? Daniel, thank you, Sam. Daniel, I don't want to take over your moderator duties, but like this is a question I always wanted to ask. And Elliot and Marquise, I mean, you know, sitting on the brand side and your experience, when you're asked the ROI question, this is probably good for the whole audience.
46:01But when you're asked the ROI question, is ROI something that the brands look at taking a while to prove out? Or are you looking at like a shorter window to prove out ROI every six months, every year? How's ROI? You know, what are you seeing with ROI in long-term partnerships, you know, like a multi-year NFL team deal? how do brands how do brands look at that what are some of the um the metrics that you're looking at in a short versus long-term window i think the first thing is uh chris you gotta know if it's like on the team set or whatever and you need it like who is like your ownership group and or because they dictate everything right if they are more like um if you're a new ownership group generally are new to the thing, they want to see immediate impact right away because they're coming in and they want to see change or they are changing things.
47:07Or you look at and say, I usually say this, sometimes depending on what it is, it will not show up on our balance sheet, right? Understand But Sam said this, and I know Elliott knows this, and what's the impact of the community, right? Especially when it comes to fans. If fans identify Elliott's company as premium, now that impact and that ROI, it may not show in this first two years of whatever deal that they're doing with the team or they're building a stadium. But now everybody else that tries to hire them or any fan that's going to come in that arena, they understand. Well, I understand why ticket prices are a little more because it's a better product.
47:59Right. So that's the ROI that like is maybe not immediate, but that it impacts the culture and community of fans and it lives on. Right. And so those are and it depends on who you're answering to. I can say we can do things for a quick push, whatever. You can manipulate numbers. If you are truly trying to do authentic partnerships, it usually is going to, you'll see the numbers, but it's going to take time to show the build. And I think with construction, I mean, ultimately, what are we trying to get at the end of the day? We're trying to get more work. The sales cycle on a construction project is so long.
48:39we have a we have a project that we signed a contract on with an owner in 2022 and it didn't start until january of this year so it tells you how long it takes for financing to go and them to get all their stuff together to start a project so that happens all the time and so some of the things that we could look at do we get more opportunities do more owners call us with legitimate opportunities to look at work and we can track that you know do we get more our employees generally more excited to be at work we can we can generally sense that um do we have more applicants coming to us versus us having to go you know pull applicants from other companies those are all things that we can track um and those are things that i i expect this partnership to produce those things and i would say within the first year or two i bet those things kind to show themselves.
49:38I mean, Chris, thank you for taking over the moderator duty for a second and asking a good question. I think it was a good question. So I think we needed to hear everybody's response to that. Sam, do you want to respond to that question or should we move to some of the Q &A that came through? I think we can hit Q &A. I will say, and what Elliot commented on and Marquise, you're talking. So the B2B play in sponsorship has a very different lens than the B2C play. And you can do both. I mean, what Elliot's doing right now is very much a B2B play with visibility and community impact in those pieces.
50:13During my time in NASCAR, I was working with Cessna. That is not a B2C play. That is very much a B2B or a B2 exclusive play. And it often happened on pit box and in boxes. There was never a physical place. There's a lot of branding, a lot of pieces, but it was very much like a very elite group that was using that for purchase. And so their approach to how they use their assets and their hospitality and their connections, their driver appearances, all those things was very, very different than what I did with McDonald's, for example. Like those two things matter. So as you think about building your partnerships or activating a partnership, understanding the brand's objective and how you can drive that for them matters.
50:52So on the rights holder or even agency side, that is such a lane that needs to be really clear. Because at the end of the day, you could think you're doing great work and you could be. But if it's not the work that the client was anticipating, then at the end of the day, you're not successful. And so making sure that's really clear up front is going to be crucial. I'll go to the first question, and it has to do with usage rights and IP. And someone said, I feel like the brand teams are always so cautious on asking almost like the juice isn't worth the squeeze. what are some of the asks you feel are most often left on the table?
51:32I feel like Marquise, you should be the first run here. And so the question is what an IP, what things are left on the table for brand rights? Yeah. I think Sam touched on it earlier. I think like if I'm, if you're doing a deal, like generally, can I like multiply it? Meaning if do I get other and if I did a deal and I'm on a brand side and say, OK, do I get in that usage of the team three times a year? Do I get access to the arena two times a year? Right. Not just for my signage, but if I want to hold something there that I can use it. Right. Because in this world of experiences, if I can then do content and tell stories in the space that I'm also sponsoring, now I can use it for execs.
52:28I can use it for other clients, VIPs. I can use it for add on giveaways with customers, clients, consumers or whatever the deal is. And that's like what we've been talking about. That's looking at the deal in a more layered thing instead of saying, oh, I've got the rights to the team. I have the jersey patch, but do I have the step and repeat? Do I have the things in the community to amplify that? It's not just about, like I read something the other day, and Sam, you probably have the better data than I, that only 28 % of all fans even know who their favorite team's jersey patch is because it's such a small patch on TV or whatever where you actually identify with it and know it's 74 % is through social or community activations.
53:23And that's how you actually get the value of a jersey patch. And so you have to know that going in. It's just not on the jersey. Yeah, Wakefield just published a study about it that I thought was fascinating. That entry for jersey patch oftentimes is new market too. So there's not already existing brand awareness. So you're almost doubling down on that investment in order to have visibility and recall over a period of time. So thinking about that in terms of rights and marks, which is a huge play in college. And so a lot of there was a question earlier that I answered in the Q &A about like, I only have 50K.
53:58Is sponsorship worth it for me, you know, in positioning? And, you know, my response is very much similar in this vein is, you know, colleges and local events can actually be a great place to go in that position. if you know what you're trying to achieve and you want to test the waters or you really want to leverage it in the community, there's not as many fish in that sea and they're not spending the same amount of dollars, especially if you're not going at like, you know, the biggest player at a power four, for example. So rights and marks matter. Banks do a really good job of using it, financial services, because they'll create a debit card, right?
54:29When they're using a logo, they'll have an initiative, but you'll find that like a lot of people just leave it on the table. And if you're an exclusive anything, you have the opportunity to throw that logo on something with approval and run. So one of the things that we've seen, we're talking construction, there's a roofing and exterior company in Chattanooga that is with UTC. And they actually have like their trucks have like the powered logo on them now with the Power C as the official roofing provider. When their signage in the front yard has it on the piece with their logo, like it built a combined logo for visibility.
55:00And that affiliation piece is something that they got the rights to do in that exclusivity play. And other people weren't using it, right? The pizza or QBRs or running through any of those kind of quick serve places, they'll create like meal bundles that I can use the logo on. They can call it a name, like a meal kind of positioning. Beers in the category of alcohol tend to create like a hoppy local if that fits and they can name it. Using that leverage for IP is really, really valuable and it's included in a lot of the deal. i i like that you you answered this sam because a lot of i think a lot of people are super scared of getting in because they want to test marketing dollars or um it's like they get a lot of approval for meta and google or other channels because they can prove roi but their test budget is this little 10 000 20 000 but you said with like those community events or nil or you're trying to, like we always said when we test on you, Jenna, when I used to run marketing ops, is like localization testing is the best because you can see uplift in localization.
56:06You can see deals come from local like deals. You don't get, national is really hard to track because it's like, did it come from, was it our meta spend in Texas or was it the national campaign we did? But if you do a single town or a single, you can see uplift from those those those spots and daniel also timing right like if you know what your budget is if you can't if you don't have millions of dollars to spend so you can't play in the olympics or the world cup you have to look and say what events are along those and in an area that like i can basically get the draft from right and it's like that's always local but it's saying oh, do I do a watch party for a suit and I do it three days?
56:57And, you know, if you're in Los Angeles and you say, OK, I'm going to do something in Venice because I know a lot of people work up and I'm a sponsor country. And it may cost me ten thousand dollars to do open bar for whatever it is or twenty thousand. You do that in a couple of spots. You'll know quickly if that will work. but you are a part of World Cup. You can do, now you can do content. They don't know if you spent a half a million dollars or 250 ,000 or whatever. You're just, you're in the mix. And now it's up to you and the right agency to craft that, you know, call Christian. He'll tell a great story for you.
57:35I love it. I've seen that a lot with the World Cup where you see watch parties on like lawns. You see like malls doing watch parties. You're seeing bars do watch parties. it's a super smart like i think sometimes like people mistake like actually sponsoring the team but and i think the the draft is a good point of like you could to test i think eventually you need to get into the teams to to do this but testing the draft is a good way of doing like a local event around it and then getting into the team all right chris i know you uh work with um all levels of brands. I'm going to, do you want to like pay back off?
58:16Like, I know people like small to big, what, like, what, what is like the smallest brand partnership you've seen to like the biggest brand partnership you've seen? And what are those both look like? Yeah, I think, you know, on the small side, I think teams, social medias are phenomenal ways to economically do a partnership. You know, it's really where the fans are going to go outside of the game. And there's a lot of content there. Teams are doing a tremendous job on their internal production and filming content for social media. So I think that's an economical way to do something to engage the fans on a one-to-one.
58:56I think on a grand scale, I mean, we work with a lot of national and international companies, international marketing rights, teams all have them. And you know, when you're going to tell a story, I mean, Marquise knows this on the NBA, NBA is a global sport. NFL is a global sport. You know, so doing, you know, international marketing rights outside the U.S. with content, with those marketing rights that the team have, you know, putting that as part of your deal, negotiating for that, very valuable because it just expands beyond north america to sports that you know like the nba basketball is enormous football is enormous um outside the us and um just adds a lot of layers onto a deal um i know we're at time and i know we have a i know there's a lot of questions but um you can always send us the questions and i'll i can forward it to sam i can forward to marquis and we could get these questions answered.
59:59But I want to thank Sponsor United for helping put this together. And you all need to check them out. They're really great with tracking deals and talking about this. And look at Sam. They have people like Sam on their crew who could talk about around the block about seeing every side of the deal. But I want to thank Marquise, Chris, Elliot, Sam. You all are great at what you do. and brought great insights to here. And so everybody in the chat, give a shout out to the panelists because they did a great job. Cool. Thank you, everybody. Thanks so much, guys. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening.
1:00:42Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five-star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community.
From the publisher
A logo on a jersey doesn't cut it anymore. So, how do the best brands decide if a sports sponsorship deal is worth the money?
Daniel sits down with a panel that's seen every side of the deal: Sam Kilgore of Sponsor United, Marquise Watts (Who's worked with Under Armor, Adidas, & the Minnesota Timberwolves), Chris Lobono of Athlete Driven Worldwide, and Elliot Christiansen of Cleveland Construction.They get into why "the logo slap" is dying and what's replacing it, how brands move at the speed of culture (see Levi's cutout logo and the Heinz tape at the World Cup), and the real way to measure ROI when only 28% of fans can name a jersey patch.
Plus Marquise's rule for every deal he touches: all money ain't good money.If you're a Marketer who wants to make sponsorships actually pay off, this episode is for YOU.
Hit follow and leave us a rating if you're into it, it helps more Marketers find the show.
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