Ben Forster

0:04Hello and welcome to The Midpoint. My guest today was launched into our lives via reality TV in 2012 when he won Superstar, the ITV show which led him to being cast as Jesus in Andrew Lloyd Webber's rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar. Of course, he had a career before that and in fact a life of treading the boards ever since he won a scholarship to the prestigious Italia Conti Academy as a 16-year-old which meant uprooting from Sunderland where he'd grown up and leaving his family behind on the quest for stardom. Along the way, he's been in the Rocky Horror Show, starred in Evita and was Phantom in Phantom of the Opera.

0:39He's a recording artist too, and his latest album is eponymous, so gives away his name. Ben Forster's Musical's Greatest Hits is out very soon. Away from his musical life, Ben and his husband Paul are very big on social media. They bought a very large Georgian mansion back to life in Cumbria. It is the makeover to beat all makeovers, and they documented it brilliantly to their considerable Instagram following. so I can't wait to hear all about tiles, staircases, copper baths and of course all things musicals. Let's chat to Ben.

1:18Ben Forster, welcome to the midpoint. I can't believe I've got you here and already off camera, off pod, chatting away like I've known you for about 50 years. Well, that's nice, isn't it? Well, I'm quite a chat box actually. Perfect. This is going to be fun then. It's good and this is so nice. Oh, well, you know. How glamorous. Quite new to me, but I'm glad you like it. Oh, I love it. We were actually talking just then about cosmetics and the aesthetic of ageing, which we don't always touch on, actually, on the midpoint, because we try and get into kind of the gritty stuff as well. But when you're in your line of work, I think it's quite interesting that there is so much more confidence now to talk about age.

1:54I feel like 20, 30 years ago, especially female actresses and singers and performers wouldn't necessarily want to acknowledge they're in this period of work. Yeah, it's true. Are you comfortable talking about that? I'm comfortable talking about it. Am I comfortable with it? I don't know. Like, I do totally feel a pressure because we're on stage. We're in front of lights. We're doing interviews. We're getting our picture taken. And I do always feel like, oh, do I look right? Am I shiny? Am I too fat? Am I too thin? I was born in a generation, like when I went to stage school, we used to get weighed.

2:25You know, and maybe my first four West End jobs, I used to get weighed every week. How did that make you feel as a young man? Awful, because I'm actually in my inside. I am probably not naturally the way I appear. I really have to work hard. I really have to look at what I eat. And obviously, I could just be whoever I want to be, but I do feel a pressure, and that totally exists. Some people are really happy and confident and love being who they are. I'm not that person. I absolutely would beat myself up. Have you found a way to be the kind of way you are that is a healthy way of living? I have.

3:02And do you know, for me, I don't know whether it's healthy, actually, but I do this thing called the OMAD diet, one meal a day. Okay. But I love it because it means that I fast until a certain time of the day, which I actually really like the feeling. It gives me lots of energy. I feel quite clear-headed. So I don't usually have breakfast. And then I have my one meal a day. And because I haven't really eaten much, I can have a glass of wine. I can have exactly the meal I want. And when do you usually have this meal? Oh, like six or seven. Right. And with your husband, you're six. Yes, absolutely.

3:33Have lasagna and chips because I'm northern. And not worry that I'm going to pay for it at the end of the week in my mental brain. Do you know what I mean? So actually, for me, it's really good. And I do eat during the day sometimes. If I feel like I need to eat, I'll have a piece of toast or whatever. But my general rule is now at this point of my age, I actually really need to watch it. Otherwise, I would just be somewhere I don't want to be. And are you aware of the content of what you're eating? Are you looking at things thinking, I need to eat some more vegetables? I need to eat more roughage I do but I am also like a pig and I love chocolate and I love all the naughty things I love pasta I love fish and chips I love an Indian takeaway You can take the boy out of Sunderland Yeah and also like when I'm northern so I have chips or bread with everything Right Like I don't feel it's a dinner without bread and butter Do you know what I mean?

4:21So like that's exactly why I've got a washroom That's so funny because I'm from Leeds and when I used to go back to visit my grandparents because we moved all over the place they would literally always be sliced white bread and butter on the table. With every meal. Yeah. Even with a roast dinner. What do you think that is? You think it's like a lack of confidence they're going to fill you up maybe. Yeah, you need to be full. Yeah. But also bread and butter and some lurpak. I would say guilty pleasure. I mean, I have, this is disgusting right, but I would eat a lasagna sandwich. I would put lasagna in bread and butter and just let that lurpak melt and be like, You're the first guest in five years that's ever confessed to eating a lasagna sandwich.

4:57I'm probably the first person ever to admit eating a lasagna sandwich. You may well be. But in terms of the fitness levels, you need to do the job that you do. It's not just keeping your voice, you know, fit and healthy. Being on stage, the kind of energy there, that must burn some calories. It does. Definitely does. And that's when I can really relax. I know that I can usually relax, just enjoy my eating, enjoy my diet. And, I mean, I do love, I make a lot of homemade food. I'm acting like I eat loads of junk. I actually make everything from scratch in my house. I love cooking I love eating I do love treating myself as well When you're in a show I love getting in a show routine Because Again it's like a rule I know I'm not going to eat anything too gloopy Or spicy or anything before a show I'm not going to have like a big cafe latte Does that really affect your voice?

5:46It doesn't really I mean a lot of like A lot of like singer singers would go Don't have any coffee ever Don't have curry And like coffee is my favourite thing I have like 20 a day And I eat curry so like usually I don't put the first bit of a job until I get everything in my voice when you're singing like a short air times a week it's quite easy at the beginning to not know where you are not know where your safety levels are so usually I go into a job and I'm not drinking any alcohol, I wouldn't drink coffee really before the shore and I wouldn't eat like a big sandwich or something during chores as you get on and you get the muscle memory and you know you can find ways around things then I'll be like, oh, I'll try a little latte between shows.

6:29And sometimes it's fine. Sometimes it's not. Right. You just never know. You know yourself. Yeah. Where are you going to? I think a year into a job, you can usually just relax and you've got a routine and your body knows. Automate pilot. I remember Catherine Jenkins telling us that she didn't speak for 12 hours before a performance. I've done that before. Have you? I mean, when I first started the Jesus Christ Superstar Tour, we were doing arenas. and the pressure that that came with was unearthly. I've never felt more anxiety. Because of the way you got the job? Because of the way I got it and then I felt like I had to prove myself.

7:07The tour went on sale before the winner was announced. So in my crazy actor's brain, I was like, oh, half the people in the arena are there and they might have wanted Rory to win. So I was like, are they like, oh, I knew what I was going to do. They're going to hold up. He was rubbish. Rory should have won. And no, it's not the case. And everyone would have just been there to watch Jesus Christ, not even particularly me. But, you know, it was, it's a horrible pressure to live with. So for that, and obviously the show is so screamy and so rocky and you can lose your voice so easily. For me, it was just like, I have to not talk.

7:44And I really just didn't drink anything. I had chicken breasts and vegetables. And you were like an athlete. I was like an athlete. In that moment, I had to really be. At what point did you relax into the fact that you should be there? Because it sounds like there was an element of imposter syndrome. I think I've still got it. Really? Yeah, I don't know if it's like the northern in me. I still feel like the industry's closed. Still feel like there's not that many opportunities for northern kids and things. So I still feel like I have this prejudice that I'm not like one of the posh ones. Is that a really bad thing to say?

8:20No, because there's a lot made of that, isn't there? and a lot spoken about, especially in film, for example. How do you get in? And it can't always just be nepotism and people you know. For you, you had to get a scholarship to come down to Italia Conti. That was the big, I imagine, sliding doors moment. Oh, that was huge. I mean, absolutely huge moment, even just for someone from Sunderland. I mean, they put me on the front of the newspaper there. They were like, someone from Sunderland's got into a drama school for free. In 1990s, that was a big deal. Do you know what I mean? Obviously, it's happening a lot more now.

8:52even boys going to college there was i think it was three boys in my year five boys in my year and like 45 goals and did you feel when you got there i'm i'm meant to be here absolutely i mean i i said that that comes with all this imposter syndrome but in inside my heart and brain i know i'm good enough otherwise i could never be 25 years down the career of having all the rejection and all the crap that comes with it. But I still, at some point when big things happen or you're doing big things, think like, oh God, does everyone think that I'm just like the one that got it because of another reason?

9:29Or, you know, even when I was in Phantom, I was like, did people think I just got Phantom because I was, I'd worked for Andrew Webber and I was his friend. You're now Andrew's mate. And I'm his mate and he's helping me out. So you go, oh God, do people think I, do I feel like I deserve it? But yeah, I mean, I had to fully audition. for all the teams, all the directors and for Cameron and everything like that. And when the applause happens at the end of a performance, is that a little bit of affirmation? Totally. Totally. I mean, it's like the favourite moments of my life and career of when you've just actually done the show.

10:01Sometimes not even doing it, it's just walking down. I got through. I didn't think I had a voice and you take a bow and you get a beautiful standing ovation. It's amazing. And I think that's what we're addicted to, really. You know, yes, so much joy comes from the art of performing and singing and taking people on this journey. It's a real reason why I love live musical theatre, because I feel like people say to me a lot like, oh, why are you not in TV? Why don't you go into movies? And actually, I just don't think it would excite me. I don't think coming into a studio like this, recreating someone's lounge and pretending I'm having like an argument or I've murdered someone or something.

10:42I don't think I get excitement by not feeling the energy and I don't know how good I would be and how much I would enjoy not doing everything in order like I love starting out the the show at the beginning well not even just the story I just love being starting at the very beginning of the show I love the arc I love that I'm now two years before I'm now on my way here in my brain I'm now here and I've just met this person and I'm doing this So if you had to record that all out of sequence, that would be... Because I'm literally playing the story. Like in my emotion, my emotion is playing the story.

11:19And I think that's why I love musicals. And we get to take the audience on that. And I think that, you know, not even just singing a song or singing a big note or something, that's not the buzz. It's the fact that you've took people on this emotional arc, you know, with something like Phantom that, you know, he's murdered like 30 people or something throughout the show. he's trying to seduce this young woman into a lair under a theater i mean everything on paper is like the guy's nuts he's red flag he's like a disaster and he's dangerous but at the end i've got to make the audience want to want her to stay with him and that's a really odd thing like why would 2 000 people want a 17 year old girl to stay in an underground lair with this murderer do you know you've got to find this thing that gives them that.

12:12And yes, you helped with the music and the lights and the set and everything. But I do love the buzz of that. Because we were just, before we started recording, talking about your friend Hannah Waddingham, and she has made that transition years. I mean, like the overnight success of Hannah Waddingham is quite hilarious, isn't it? Because she was a star in the West End and musicals. One of our biggest stars, though. But not a household name, in the sense that if you're not a musical theatre fan, you wouldn't necessarily have connected her with all these shows. Yes. I mean, I'm sure she had a huge group of fans, but then when you make that leap to TV and film, suddenly it's a different level of fame.

12:44It's amazing. I love watching that. I've loved watching Hannah's journey. There's been many people in my career, actually. Many people have started out in the West End and friends that have become hugely successful. With Hannah, I mean, me and her were doing a duo show for Friday Night's Music Night in like 2018, I think, around then or 2017. Oh no, maybe after. actually might be 2019 or something anyway I did a Friday Night's Music Night with her and we were singing duets and some of our own songs and we were in the hotel and she said I said oh what's happening now I mean she'd done like Game of Thrones and she'd done some stuff and she said oh I just really feel like there's a job I've just went for and I've got this feeling it's a life changer she was like I just I love the role, I love her I've met the director, I've done a few calls and I'm just waiting for the decision and we did the show that night and we went out, had a raucous night in Bath, which was amazing.

13:40Oh, I would love to go on a night with you two. I imagine that would be very good fun. Oh, it was. Do you know what? Like some really odd things happened. We still laugh about it. Can't even say them on this podcast, but like a man came up to us and just got everything out. And we were like, and I remember just her going, ooh, what was that for? In a bar, in a random bar. In Bath. I mean, I'm not saying that Hannah brought that on or me. I don't know who it was. Just the combination. It was very odd. Obviously the chemistry between the pair of you. But anyway, we woke up in the morning after we'd done the show and she'd had the call that she'd got it.

14:13And it was Ted Lasso. And she just knew that it was a life changer. And actually, like, we did. And you're not hunting for that. That's not something you're... I'm not, no. Honestly, I love my life so much. I'm a musical theatre performer. I love musicals. I'm really, really happy going into, like, obviously doing this new album, doing my tour next year. And I love that expansion to just being an actor and a singer. in musical theatre shows. I've loved developing my career alongside that. But look, I'm never saying never. I just don't know. If you get the same satisfaction. Yeah, I don't want to be in a soap opera.

14:47I don't want to go every day and pretend to be someone else. I don't think I get the buzz from acting. I love acting with music. Going back to your, you mentioned a few times, your Northern Roots and Sunderland and your family, obviously, hailing from there. How do you think that has, while you kind of got to Italia Conte and you felt, yeah, this is a place for me because you just wanted it so much. What do you think that Northern upbringing has given you in particular as a performer and somebody you've got to be so resilient in your business? You have. I mean, do you know what I think that the Northern thing has given me the best?

15:22Is the, like you're sort of instilled by your aunties and uncles and your culture and your friends and the society there. that you shouldn't be posh. Don't have any airs and graces. Airs and graces. And I think actually for everything that I've achieved and the places I've been and how I've developed my life to this moment goes against everything it is. But in my mind, I still would never want to change who I am or pretend I'm someone different because I think it would just embarrass my nana. Do you know what I mean? She'd be like, what are you acting like that for? You know, so everyone goes, How come you saw like down to earth still, you saw normal or you've not lost your accent?

16:06And actually, I think I've just had it drummed into me that I must remain the same person and keep my feet on the ground and be nice to everyone. And everything I achieve is just little day to day achievements. It's not a big grand thing that changes me. I'm still the same person that was born on that little miners cottage street in Sunderland, you know. So why would I change? And also it's a reminder, isn't it, to those people who are following in your footsteps of what is possible. If you'd changed your accent or you'd affected a different way of being, then you'd be kind of denying that. But also I just wouldn't be being me.

16:42No. I mean, maybe I would. Look, maybe I'm just living up to a northern pressure of actually staying as someone else. Maybe I could have developed into someone else who would be just as fabulous. But I don't know. I've always just felt like this pressure to remain with my feet on the ground. Yeah. And has it been that way? I mean, now you're heading into your mid 40s. Does it feel like you're in a, you know, in the place you're supposed to be? And did it feel like that in your 20s? You know, because I think as a young performer, you're learning all the time still what you're doing. Do you feel like you're where you're meant to be right now?

17:15I definitely, I believe 100 % in fit and like the attractiveness of looking for my destiny. I think I'm really good at spot now. I'm like a master manifester. Did you manifest your husband? Everything. I did. Actually, I've just manifested everything. I really believe I'm good at it. And I also think that I'm really good at being able to pick out the right moments, when to move. And that's always been the case, hasn't it? Yeah, I've got like a real innate self-belief that I'm making the right decision. And sometimes, even with jobs, I would say to my agent, um oh i'm sort of in two minds let me make the decision but don't tell anyone for an hour and so sometimes i say yes to a job and i'll know as soon as i put the phone down that whether my heart sinks or whether it lifts and i think like sometimes i like how does that feel like i've took that job i've said it to my agent i'm doing doing that job and if i'm like oh no that's nice I'm like okay it's attractive it feels good to me and sometimes my heart goes oh god I don't want to do that so pick the phone back up I ring him up like 55 minutes and go no actually don't I don't want to do it so yeah and that's the same with making property decisions I mean talk about being in touch with your gut that is really being in touch with yourself yeah I think so I think I am I think I feel like I don't think touch wood that I've made like any mistakes do you know what I mean like I don't look back and think oh why did I do that you don't have regrets I don't have any regrets no because also like I'm in a place which I could only have dreamt of so I feel happy in every sense it's not a material thing it's not like I don't feel like and I'm also like not like hugely successful like Hannah I'm not hugely rich like someone Andrew Lloyd Webber Andrew Lloyd Webber.

19:19It's not those things. I just feel like everything that I wanted and everything that I do, I love. And I live a life every day that I don't feel like I work. I don't feel like I have a job. I don't feel, I just feel like I'm living my life. And I think that's a really lucky thing. It is, because you work so hard when you're in a show. That's not easy. But it's a lovely thing. Yeah. That's a lovely focus. it's not yes of course I can be tired sometimes someone can piss me off you know and I'm like oh for god's sake and of course life happens around that don't I'm not just saying it's all amazing but in the vast majority of my life I'm blessed I feel like I've got a happy feeling inside me and I don't feel I'm so I feel so fortunate that I don't suffer from any thing that would make me feel sad or you know massive huge anxieties of life stuff of course I've had an opening night of Jesus Christ Superstar.

20:14Is my voice working? I've got a cold, all that stuff. I've got anxiety. I know what it feels like, but not that day-to-day stuff. And I think I feel so lucky for that. And that must make you a very attractive person to be around because so few people have got that sense of, you know, feeling real gratitude and it sounds like, and a real genuine happiness in what you're doing. Yeah, I do. But I get happiness from all little things. Like, they're not just the huge things. Like, I just love my coffee machine. Do you know what I mean? I love when I press my coffee machine in the morning. It makes me really happy.

20:48And I love when I come up my drive and I see the house and I love my chickens so much. And I loved my dogs. They're dead now. Oh, I know. I saw that on your social media. Sorry about that. I saw yours as well. I know. I'm so sorry. And they were gorgeous. I really want a boxy dog. Oh, I think we'll give it a year or so. There'll be another one in our lives, I think. Yeah, I'm going to give it a year. I've said I've got a massive tour in the year next year. We have another two dogs as well, so we're not dogless at the moment. I'm dogless. You've brought the house up, so let's talk about the house.

21:15Because I can see why that house makes you happy. It's magnificent. It is magnificent. But I knew that house when I was 10 years old. I was brought up in Sunderland. Very, very working class environment, inner city life. So my mum and dad bought a caravan in a village called Token Village in Cumbria. And it was beautiful. They bought it off my auntie and uncle's friend for like 500 quid or something. And we used to go there every weekend. I used to be picked up from school and taken there and on Monday morning we'd wake up at 5 o 'clock to get me to school. We wouldn't even leave on Sunday afternoon.

21:48We loved it there so much. So every weekend I used to walk past the house and get my dad to lift me over the garden wall because it had these tall walled gardens. Do we just describe it? It's kind of Georgian looking. It's actually Victorian, but it's Georgian style. But it's built Victorian. So it's that beautiful, classic country manor house. The proportions of it. The proportions of it, the symmetry of it. It's so handsome. And I could see that even when I was 10 years old. I used to be like, look over the wall and just be like, that must be like a princess or a prince that lives there. Like who could live there?

22:22Who was living there at the time? Do you know? Actually, yeah, my friend's mum, who actually bought the house off. So just say the reason I know what this house looks like is not because I've kind of in depth research gone and kind of travelled the country looking at your life. You actually have a brilliant social media account, which I've talked about in your introduction on Instagram. Oh, right, yeah. You've documented, it's called The Country House. Yeah. And you've documented with your husband's work as well, kind of how you did this up. Yeah. And, you know, and it's absolutely beautiful. I'm a sucker for a makeover.

22:51Oh, me too. So I just, I love a before and after. And you do that brilliantly on this. Yeah. Oh, well, that's good. I'm glad you enjoy it. You know what? It was weird. We bought the house, not without intention. And after about three weeks, I remember like the girl who played Christine, Celinda, when I was in Phantom. she's quite good on social media and we were about three or four weeks into the house renovation and we found dry rot, wet rot we discovered that the roof that we thought was fine just wasn't fine so much stuff and our budget went from being like the top of our budget to being like we need to find a lot more and I remember lying in bed going Cylinda got 40 % off some parquet floor because she's on Instagram like we should have done that four weeks ago and then I like went to sleep and then I woke up and I was like, we should just do it now.

23:38Let's just do, let's do an Instagram. And we started the Instagram on the Friday morning and by Monday morning, we had 20 ,000 followers. And we were like, how has that happened? And then on Monday morning, literally, I mean, I'm talking about manifesting. Yeah. We got an email from a PR company saying, would you like a log burner? And I was like, yes, we would like a log burner. And actually Instagram, I've got to say, I don't know whether it could happen now. It's a bit of a different world. like even to like four or five years ago it just helped us so much we did so many amazing collaborations with amazing companies lots of amazing british companies and we were able to make the house our dream you were bringing it back to life as well in some ways and serving it you know had permission to be split up um it had permission for six executive six bedroom houses in the garden so i mean we had to then buy the garden which first of all we bought the house thinking we'll just put a big line of trees between this and the building site.

24:36And then we got it. And after about two months, we saw the estate agent coming over with some builders and they were pointing around the garden. And because there was no boundary, we were like, we'd walk through the garden every day. The dogs had been, I was like, it's our garden. They're just going to take it off us and build houses. It's going to be awful. So then we had to like beg, steal and borrow and buy six building plots, not even a garden. But you always viewed it as a business proposition as well as somewhere you would. We did because, look, neither of us were born with a silver spoon in our mouth.

25:05Neither of us have got parents that we can just lean on or ask for help with. We knew that we had to do it ourselves. So it had to be able to pay for itself. That was the deal. But initially, I mean, we thought we would use it as a bit of a holiday house, that we'd enjoy it, we'd be able to have our friends and family there, and that we would rent it out like eight, ten times a year to pay for the oil and the mortgage. And actually, the Instagram happened. That was all accidental, really, and was brilliant. And then we got a call from Channel 4 saying, would you like to be in a TV show? So we did a renovation show.

25:40And actually, just over those couple of years, we really realised that this was going to be a much bigger thing than we ever thought, and we had a bigger opportunity. So we could see the opportunity. Yeah, it's more than a little side hustle, isn't it? Absolutely. It wasn't just like a, we'll rent it out on Airbnb. It was like, okay, we could do something really special. But I think there's all, you know, people can do that with a property, but there's something about this property because of its history and its proportions and its grandeur and the fact that you say that you saved it from being split up into the units and potentially being used maybe in a commercial sense, you know, an overtly commercial sense, that there's something very romantic about it as well.

26:15It's just gorgeous. And there's something about it. I think people can feel the energy of the house, even online. But like when we walked in and it was derelict, almost derelict, it felt attractive and amazing and gorgeous like you didn't want to leave and yes we've done all the work to it and yes it's just come out beautiful and we're so proud of it but I still think it's something to do with where them lines cross you know like when them energy lines cross it's just in this the lay lines it's in this place that when people get out of the car they go oh my god this place is amazing but also Cumbria where the house is is one of those kind of areas of the country people just don't really talk about much do they?

26:57And you don't hear much about Cumbria. Which is wild. Because, I mean, I don't want to overly promote it. Because it's like a hidden secret. But Cumbria is a three-hour train from London. A five-hour drive. Yes, it's a lot. But if you stop for two coffees, it's not that much. You know, you leave mid-morning, you're there mid-afternoon. And actually, like, it's just a glorious place. People travel all over the world to be in places like that. You know, it really astounds me. Like, people go to, I mean, New Zealand is amazing. But people literally travel to the other side of the world to go and see mountains and lakes and beautiful scenery and I'm like why didn't you go to the Lake District I was like it's really close and it's basically looks the same in so many ways the Lake District is gorgeous Cumbria is gorgeous I just love the atmosphere there and you know being in and going from like I lived in London since I was 16 7 just 17 and I was really happy I loved my day-to-day life I loved getting on the tube I loved nipping places and doing things and I never thought people always used to say oh would you move back up north and I used to be like absolutely no way no way like I'll move abroad before I move up north and because we got the house and we moved there to do the renovation it was right at the end of the second lockdown of Corvid the last lockdown of Corvid although I knew that community from being a child I knew a lot of the old people and I used to work in the pub and things when I was a kid at the weekends um so I did have a connection to the community I didn't know that they would accept us because we're two gays, right?

28:28So I was like, you know, would that be okay? Actually, like, there's lots of gays in the village. We're not the only gays in the village. It's really a beautiful place. And all the things I thought would freak me out, like people knowing our business, people knowing who we are. When you're taking the dogs for a walk, everyone's saying hello to you. All this stuff made me go, but it's fine because I don't even know the neighbours in London, so I don't need to know anyone there. but when we got there the feeling of community and the feeling of being part of a community is such a beautiful human feeling I think everyone misses it I now feel like I'm an advocate for like move to a small village be part of a community because even though those people are not I mean there are we've got some beautiful friends in the village but I think that we probably know everyone in the village because only 300 people so I know everyone's first a lot of them people and not my friends, close friends, but actually even knowing that you can, we are something that is together.

29:26We are part of this village. We look after each other. We look after the village. It's a human feeling I hadn't felt. And I think that that's a really amazing thing to feel. The blue zones, the five areas of the world that have got the longevity studies on them. And one of the factors is community. That kind of feeds into longevity because of human connections. Absolutely. There's got to be something to it because everything that would have freaked me out because I was a Londoner at heart, the opposite things have given me this inner human happiness. But you also get to tap in to that kind of metropolitan kind of, you know, busyness when you are in a show.

30:07I presume you recorded the new album in London. You get to come down. So you get to dip in. I do. I still come to London once every week or two weeks, really, to be fair. And does Paul come with you? Sometimes. I mean, he's running that whole business now and our life and businesses. But yeah, he was down this week for a few nights. And yeah, we do love it. But it even makes me appreciate this more. You know, when I'm in London, I'm like, wow, there's people outside the pub. That's so fun. People drinking pints. I don't know about you, but I get quite, when I walk around and like we're in the middle of Soho, right?

30:39So, of course, it's busy and it is around lunchtime. I get kind of heartened that people are out enjoying themselves because I still have that kind of feeling of post-COVID. where people were scared to go out and we keep hearing about the hospitality industry being in decline. And I get really excited when I see people out having a nice... I love life. I love it. Honestly, I love people and I love life. I suppose my point is that before I thought I didn't want anyone to talk to me. And now you're quite... And now I actually really love when people talk to me. I'm like, oh, it's so cute. It's just lovely.

31:11And I'm even on the parish council. Are you? Yeah, I'm on parish council. Council of Forster. What kind of things do you have to make decisions on? are amazing very very important things like about whether or not we should have a bus stop and whether or not we should this is the definition of midpoint put a chair somewhere you know a bench right and we've got a village field that we're fundraising for a play park for the kids and yes very important things have you thought about having some kind of concert at the house that kind of like you know really big kind of yes I have are you psychic maybe maybe you are I would love to do that I've actually explored it a little bit.

31:48I would love to do that sort of on the lawn everyone having picnics. I'm picturing it yeah. You know, but it's just the weather isn't it? You can't predict it. It's so nice especially in Cumbria. I was going to say it's kind of known for its lakes and they only came there because of the old rain. The water, yeah it is you can never predict it. No. But I would love to do that I would absolutely love to get some sort of I'm sure you could probably persuade the rest of the parish council to give you a licence to do that. Yeah well now I can. It sounds like Even though, you know, as a 16 year old, you came to London to realise your dream.

32:19It sounds like in your kind of mid 40s that you've almost been kind of building up to this period of life because of that sense of kind of groundness and just feeling very grateful. And it feels like this is a really happy period to be in. Yeah, I think it is. I think it's weird because I always used to give myself a goal. Well, 45 is a really important age for me. And it's always been in my psyche as like, I need to work. I don't know why I used to think this. I'm trying to think why. Or maybe it's like a mortgage thing. I think I used to think, right, I need to work really, really hard. I need to max everything out and I need to be as successful as possible until I'm 45 and then I need to pay for everything so that it's paid for by the time I'm 65.

33:04Right. Okay. Is that still the plan? Yeah. I think so. I think, like, by the time I'm 45, I kind of want to, I'd probably quite like to stop trying to expand everything as much. Right. So that we can then go, right, now let's concentrate, let's build and plateau. And is Paul on the same page with you on this? Yeah, we're really, you know what, I talk about this a lot. Like, we're exactly the same but different people. So we want the same thing. We think the same thing is nice. We watch the same things on TV. We like the same food. We want the same holidays. What's the biggest difference? He's not as good a singer.

33:37He's probably a little bit more sensitive than me. I'm sensitive, but I'm quite like... You must be also hardened. People are telling you to your face, we don't want you actually through your career. We've got somebody else that's going to do that. That makes you a little bit harder. Maybe I'm a bit direct. I think I've got a really, really bold ability to be able to just say what I think. And I don't necessarily always think it's offensive. So Paul will go, why did you say that? and I'd be like oh of course that's what I thought that's just what I just was trying to help like I'm just saying because he's more where he would he would skirt around things and be really super sensitive probably to other people and maybe I would like you know if someone asked me for advice I'd just go ditch him do this don't do that and he's like that's not necessarily you know so that's our difference I suppose but no arguments over it you know an arguing couple no no we're not no no we honestly we really do We're like the same.

34:35And I think that's a really key, well, like 19 years this year. And I think it's like key to a relationship sort of success that you can just relate to one another. So you were with him with Jesus Christ Superstar at the very beginning. So, but quite early on in the relationship, was he worried about that sending you kind of into a direction that would make you different, change you? Maybe he was. I don't know whether he would have said it to me. and know that he would be like if I would go why am I not doing this he'd go who do you think you are just get off your high horse you know just like you're lucky to be doing it remember how lucky you would feel right it's the same with life isn't it the more you get the more you sort of want you know I think it's quite a human natural human and he's quite good at bringing you back he is yeah you know he's kept me firmly on the ground and we talked a little bit before we started recording about friendships and I think that's really interesting this period of life because you think you might have all the friends you need and then suddenly you meet somebody that you decide actually I feel like I want to spend more time with you and I've gone the other way I think over the last few years and thinking actually I don't think I've got all the friends I'm ever going to have yes of course how how naive and how arrogant to think that there aren't more interesting and not more interesting than my friends but you know there aren't other people that might add but also like we grow and expand don't we we get new interests and we become we think differently so actually like find a new friends every so often that just suddenly relate to where you're thinking or where you're at I think it's really helpful um I'm one of those people that I've got my group of core best friends from when I was like 16 when I first went to college um and they really mean a lot to me but are they all still in the business uh yes wow yeah in some way yes but you know we've all grown separately we've all got different things we've all got lots of different beliefs now as well actually lots of political different beliefs we've all become richer or poorer we've all everyone's just changed but we're all still really super best friends but i do sometimes meet the odd person and you're like i relate to this person so much currently you know and i think it's really interesting like you know i've and every so often you just meet a life friend they just think they're just amazing and they do mean as much to me as my old best friends you know and you don't necessarily have to integrate them all anyway do you that's the other thing i'm not very good at integrating friends you've got little groups yeah even for my birthday sometimes i'll be like oh i'll do that with my besties and i'll do that with them and i'll do that with because they're my friends from there you know what i mean it's quite weird i don't know how i would feel we actually me and Paul are not married yet.

37:21Oh, you're not married yet? No, we're not married yet. You're calling him your husband. But we do need, well, we're engaged. Well, you've got the house now. Yeah, we've got, I mean, yeah. You've got the venue. We're practically married. We've got the house. I mean, we can't get married in our own house, which is hilarious. Did doing that up not cause stress to the relationship? Because that, I mean, that is, a lot of people listening to this will have done renovations, and that can cause... Yeah, no, it's awful. Yeah. Actually, there was more, there was days where we were just in tears. We're like, what have we done?

37:44What were we thinking? because I'm very, I'll take all the risk. I'll calculate, but I'm the one that's made us do everything. Paul wouldn't have done anything. You pull the trigger. He would just never have actually gone, yes, we'll make the decision. And I go, okay, yes, we're doing it. Then I go, can you do it now? And I'm just letting him do everything. You take the responsibility for the decision and then he activates. And then he's amazing at sort of keeping everything organised and making sure we've gone on the right thing. but honestly at some some of those days i think we would have just give the keys away if you could if we could have walked away debt-free i think we would have just walked away but yeah anything that's worth having you've got to go through a bit of hard work together haven't you got anything yeah isn't it that's worth anything you've got to have worked for it going back to my little happiness feeling uh i was having this discussion the other day and i think it's worth talking about Because when I went to college at 16, I was suddenly in a pool of people that had like famous parents that were multi-millionaires, that were daughters of restaurant owners or chefs or TV personalities.

38:52And obviously I just came from like a youth worker and a plumber in Sunderland. and actually looking at all of our lives now i just wonder if there's something in creating and having your own existence that you have i can look back and i can honestly say that the whole of my life is my responsibility so everything i have i really do get joy from because i got it we were talking about a friend on sending names um and saying why why are they not happy and actually I think it's because they didn't experience that well actually just everything was given would I love pressing my coffee machine if we hadn't really worked for it and I just I think sometimes if I haven't got kids and I don't think I'm going to have kids but if I had kids I don't think I'd give them everything I think I would I think I'd want to I understand why people want to give their kids so much but I think I think you're doing them a disservice if you give them everything I do.

39:55I do. I was talking about this the other day, Andrew Lloyd Webber and his family, just like a shout out of gratitude to them as people, because obviously, Andrew Lloyd Webber is a multi, multi. Yeah, I think that's no secret. We're not revealing anything that people don't realise. But his kids are beautiful people and really, really amazing. And you question why, and then you spend time with them and you see that they haven't been given everything. It's not been dished out. I know that one of the kids core bought a flat with a group of friends so that he could afford to get on the property market.

40:33I know that when we went to dinner one time, one of the youngest kids was on his phone under the turbo and Madeline was like, what are you doing? And he was like, yes. And I was like, oh, what? Is it football? And he was like, no, I've just sold a pair of trainers on eBay because I'm saving up for my first car. And I was like, Andrew L. Weber is your dad and you're saving up for your first car. Like, it's amazing. I think that's amazing. That's so important. And it's something to be said to that, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, that is a really great example, isn't it? That you've seen that with your own eyes, just how they could easily have been very entitled, spoiled kids if things have gone the wrong way.

41:07And they're working hard and they're creating their own lives and you can see that they're happy. So you just said that you don't think you'll have. is the door still open? No. No. Yeah, and I question this a lot. Why? And I don't know whether it's like the generation of, my like generation of being the gay born in 1981. Obviously in like when I was coming to terms with being gay when I was a kid, when I was like 12 and 13, I remember being really sad that I was gay. I remember like having a really big realisation and being heartbroken that I thought I was gay. Because I remember thinking that I'm never going to be normal and have a wife and I really wanted a wife.

41:53I wanted like that thing. Is it because you're kind of in love with your mum that you loved your mum so much? I just wanted what my mum and dad have got. I just thought that was the lovely normal, right? So I was like, oh my God, I'm never going to like be able to hold hands walking around a supermarket and go on holidays and then I'm never going to be able to have kids. and it was a heartbreak and I actually went through like the thing of like I'm not going to have kids when I was a kid because I knew that I wasn't. Because you didn't see any gay couples who had children. I think we couldn't even adopt or anything then.

42:23It was never a question. Couldn't marry then. Yeah, you couldn't even get married so you know we were never going to have kids. So I don't know whether it's because I just actually came to terms with the fact that I was never going to be a parent that now I don't have the feeling that I want to be. but going back to your manifesting you probably weren't manifesting that were you if you yeah you closed down that kind of chapter it's true in your life yeah um i mean was the same yeah he's the same i think we really love our life and i'm like and i know that it's weird because i think we could give a really beautiful home and lovely and be really good parents but in a selfish sort of way i'm like i don't know whether i want it i think i'd want kids to like look after me when i'm Do you know when you're old and one of us dies?

43:10You can pay for that Yeah exactly and they can be hot and sexy And have you Be like an old perv Have you got kids around you in your life? Lords, we've got six nephews Who are lovely Six nephews? Yeah, six nephews So two on Paul's side Who are younger and brilliant And four on my side My sister had four kids under four Wow, four boys? Four boys under four. Oh, my gosh. She deserves an OBE. Yeah, she does, actually. That is hard. She does. But they're brilliant and they've made our lives. Yeah. They're great. I think if you've got children in your life, I think because it's about looking at the future and thinking about what is this for?

43:52Why am I doing it? And then you look to the generation coming up. It doesn't matter if they're not necessarily your own children. It's feeling that there's a purpose to do your recycling, for example. Why am I worried about these things? Because I want these guys to have a better life. yeah see that's a feeling i'm never gonna have but you are with your nephews that's what i'm saying yes because you know i do there's a purpose there for absolutely yeah absolutely but i i still won't have what you've got that sort of un uh conditional love that you can have for something and people say why wouldn't you adopt and help someone and i just get scared that i wouldn't love it I'm sure you would I just get really scared I'm like what if I don't though what if it like what if it annoys me you can't send you can't send it back I'd be like stuck with a kid that I don't I'm like I couldn't so now I'm just not yeah it sounds like I think you know your mind yeah I think I shouldn't be a parent I don't feel like this is the place where we're going to talk you into this at the end of it I'm going to welcome this is your yeah and surprise surprise well it sounds like life is great I mean, just listening to what's going on now professionally, obviously you're in a great place and relationship.

45:06And so Midlife is going really, really well. Yeah, Midlife is good. Just before we finish our chat, tell me a little bit about how you choose all the songs that you put on this album, because, you know, you must have so many favourites. There is. Actually, do you know what? Like before anything else, I'm a musical theatre lover and geek. Like if I couldn't sing, I would still love musicals and I'd love the material. It really connects with me. so actually when you come to picking 10 of your favorite songs um it's impossible i was like how do i i've got like a hundred songs that i'd love to do um and they're not even just like the male songs i love all the girls songs i love all the or the ensemble song i just love there's so much amazing music uh so actually it became like a list of 40 and then it was like actually which ones do i really need obviously i need to do gethsemane because from jesus christ superstar need to do a Phantom of the Opera song so it was Music of the Night so like we've got to so then you kind of build the rest of the album around a nice journey it's been really thought about I've really thought about you know starting with one song what I'd like it to be what's the sort of journey into the next song so I knew the sort of order of the songs and what I wanted the album to feel like So what the listener comes away with at the end Yeah so I feel like it's you know of course all the songs stand up and you can just listen to one of the songs on Spotify and it'll be lovely.

46:27But also sitting down with a bottle of wine and listening to it as a piece of theatrical music I think is really nice. Do you have to perform at family parties? Are they always calling on you? No, everyone, wherever I go, sing us a song. I'm like, no. No. I literally sing nowhere. I get asked all the time to sing. People go, can you sing a song? I'm like, no. Really? Yeah. That's so mean. I know. You've got that talent. I would be showing off. all the time if I could sing. Do you know what it is? Like, I just feel like I need to be, like, warmed up. Right. I love having, like, an orchestra and a mic.

47:06I'm like, no. I'm not singing in the pub, sitting down at the bar with pints. It is your job as well. I know. So do you like singing popular music as well? Oh, yeah, I love it. I love all sorts of music, actually. But it's weird. People also say this to me. Do you sing in the house? I'm like God I don't Why don't I sing Like Paul sings in the shower Like he'll sing in the car And I was like And I've like I don't know whether it's because it's work or job But like I just don't feel like I'm not like a singer that like Like I'm not singing around Like walking around the house With music in my head at all Oh you've totally shattered I know The image I had of you at home Yeah So you wouldn't When you're doing the hoovering or anything You wouldn't be No I mean there might be a handful of times but no it's really bizarre in your daytime job your night time job I love it I don't know whether it's a thing that I've always been like I need to save my voice I've done so long in London and in the West End where you are reserving so actually I don't know if I've just learned to be quiet I've just learned to be quiet I think that might be what it is because I'm always like don't use your voice well I'm glad you weren't quiet today because I've really loved chatting to you.

48:23Oh, thanks. And hearing about your balance in life. It just feels like you're a very balanced kind of guy. Yeah, I think I am. Everyone in my life is probably like, it's absolute bullshit. He's not. No, I am. He's just an excellent actor. He's just played the part of this really zen guy. No, I really am. I don't know why. Honestly, just all that I can say to you is what I've said today. But that's where I'm at, I think. Yeah, well, I think one of the things you said that really resonated was that 16-year-old kid arriving thinking this is where I need to be because I think so many people look back on their life and there are traumas and troubles from that period of their life where they don't really know who they are and want to be.

49:00And you were having those conversations with yourself at a very young age. And really trust my instincts. I think that's the thing I would say. I really actually remember there's like two points in my life where I've physically made a decision to walk in a direction and say yes. that changed my life that led to the whole rest of my life and that I can really remember them Italia one of them was Italia Conti where a dance teacher came out and said there wasn't enough boys auditioning can I come in and audition and my instinct said do it and my heart and my brain was like you cannot go to a dance audition because I wasn't a dancer right I was like I can't dance and for some reason I was going yes thinking I'm walking in there and I can't do this what am I doing I'm going to look stupid this is awful I'm terrified so I should have walked away but actually uh he gave it to me I got that little shot uh because there was no one else and at that shot when we were rehearsing the BBC there was two women came in and also they came in covered in light to me, like literally like in a bubble.

50:17And I was like, who are they? I love them to women. And I went up to them and I was like, oh, hi, what are you doing? And they were like, oh, we're from the BBC. And I was like, oh, what are you doing? And they were like, oh, we're looking to see whether we might make a documentary on the college. And I was like, oh, well, why don't you get your camera and I'll give you a tour. I'll give you a tour of everything that's going on. So they were like, ding. And I did like a pilot for them and then ended up being like the main feature in like probably one of the first fly in the world documentaries called the dream academy yes and it was a really unusual tv show and that then because i was being followed by cameras for a year and a half i got all the west end auditions at college i left in my second year i was in a western show when i was 18 right so it started that moment and just truly believing that you uh can do stuff and the second one would That be Superstar?

51:11The second one was Superstar. Yeah, when actually I really had the phone call that it was happening, but I actually had decided that I wanted to leave the industry. Yeah, because we'd started to property develop and we were on a really good run with a few properties and I'd been in Thriller Live as the lead singer, which was an original Michael Jackson show and I was the original cast. So I was singing amazing songs every night, Beat at Dirty Diana, Man in the Mirror, She's Out of My Life Earth Song all the big bangers right I'd been in the show for three years and I couldn't get an audition for any of the leading roles and I'm like why?

51:52Why is no one letting me in? Like I'm a leading man in the West End but no yeah the show wasn't credible So you were ready to pack it in So I was like I can't get into Phantom of the Opera I can't get into Lemmy's I can't get into anywhere None of the new musicals were auditioning me I was like why? yes I'm like let's I'm done I've been in the West End for 12 years it's been great actually all the all the dreams I wanted to achieve I've achieved that's all I feel happy so let's move on to product development and I love that Paul owned a bar at the time in East London ran a bar and I was like our life can be nice I'll just do that and be fabulous and then something in me was like, you could win it.

52:35You could win. I was thinking like, I just kept thinking, but I could win it. I had this thing going, you could win it. You could win it. Oh, you did. And I said to my agent, okay, I will. I'll go and I'll audition. And I had to audition with everyone else, 10 ,000 people. And then I got there and I was the last person in 10 ,000 to audition. And just before I walked in, Andrew Lloyd Webber turned up to do like some TV thing. So I was the only person in 10 ,000 that he saw. Oh, wow. Which is weird. but then obviously when I got into that process I was just thinking I'll never win because I heard everyone singing and they were amazing I never believed I could win after that point never ever that's like those kids that go to Oxford and then they realise suddenly everybody else is super bright as well do you know what I mean you're kind of in your own belief going I'm really clever I'm really clever oh my god everybody's really clever and when you do a show like that you might be brilliant but of course everybody else has to be brilliant otherwise it's not really going to be a great show and there's always people better than you there is always people there are just you're never the best actually so it really the whole time I was just thinking right just get into the final 40 then I might like get on TV because I was trying to better my career you know then it went to like right get onto the TV shows if I can get into the final 12 that would be amazing then I got into the final 12 and I was like I'll never win because he's amazing he's better he's better he's better he's better let's try and get into the final 10 and then it was like let's try and get into the final 5 and then I was like if I can get to the final I might get like a panto and then I won and then it was the second wind and it feels like the second half is going to be just as successful, thank you so much for coming on, it's been an absolute joy I did try and get you to sing but you know, hey ho, you can't have everything no

54:18thanks for listening bye bye

54:29Thank you.