Clodagh McKenna: Finding Your Own Path, Food and the Importance of Change

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0:57Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit. That's joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Hello and welcome to Life at the Midpoint with me, Gabby Logan. My guest today is Clodagh McKenna. She's a chef, author and broadcaster, but really food has been at the heart of almost everything she's ever done. Clodagh grew up in Cork and trained at Ballymallow Cookery School after her mom secretly took out a loan to pay for her course. She'd actually had a very different idea for her future, opening a chain of coffee shops. But Ballymelo changed the direction of her life.

1:31From there, she worked with the slow food movement in Italy, opened restaurants, wrote cookbooks and became a familiar face on television. And she's still doing it. She has a new series on ITV, Clodagh Cooking at Home. And these days, she and her husband, Harry, live and work on a farm in the English countryside. but I really wanted to talk to Clodagh about her new book, Clodagh at Home, and what home, food and cooking mean to her now. After so many years cooking professionally, writing books and working in television, has the way she cooks and the way she wants to live changed? Let's get into it.

2:09Clodagh, it is so lovely to have you on Life at the Midpoint. so the question I always ask my guests when they sit in the chair to start us off is when in life did you experience the most dramatic change? Oh the most dramatic change probably not too long ago I think um I'm now 51 it was probably I would say in the last year the most dramatic change of feeling completely comfortable with my own skin. Did something happen to make you realize that? Not really. I don't know what it was. It's just, I don't know, feeling really comfortable with who I am, knowing, and maybe it's knowing who I am, like really knowing who I am as a person.

3:00And that's a really lovely thing. I guess there's like the kind of the balance of like the yays and the nays of like you know getting older and I think that's definitely one of the biggest positives isn't it of like getting older you know who you are and you become really comfortable with who you are and with that of course comes incredible freedom so you give yourself incredible freedom to do what you want to do without you know without wondering what people would think of it or having your own opinions and giving yourself that great freedom. You got married a little bit later in life. Do you think that coincides with that feeling as well that you had a, I don't know, maybe a security somehow that you felt that you were free because you were loved in a way that you wanted to be loved?

3:53But yeah, definitely. And definitely Harry, who's my husband, he is the most amazing person I've ever met in my life. And I feel like, thank God I married him because he's really is, he's so kind. And he is like my biggest life supporter. And I feel incredibly blessed. But I do think that it's quite important to become comfortable with who you are with or without a partner, you know. And I think that's really important that you become rock solid because you start the life on your own and you end on your own. You know, you have to be comfortable with who you are on your own. I think that's quite important to feel that.

4:35And everything else is extra, you know. But yeah, we got married when I was in my 40s. Yeah, we met in my 40s and we got married in my 40s. And I, you know, a lot of people say to me, like, you know, why didn't you marry before then and everything? And I think I got, I grew up in a household in Ireland, where I remember the day when the laws changed and my mother was allowed to work. you know because when I grew up when I was first born you know growing up in Ireland you if you were married you weren't allowed work it was against the law as a female. I had no idea that that was. Did you not? No yeah yeah wow and you weren't allowed work yet to like stay at home and manage the family and the house and everything could be a good wife and the minute the law changed my mom went straight out to work and she really instilled in us like constantly there was a week going by, always earn your own money, always be independent, you know, and don't let anything stand in your way.

5:46And I grew up with that. So I never thought about marriage or family as being something that I needed to do or had to do. I was just, I want to write cookery books. I want to live in Italy. I want to live in New York. I want to just go and really live, you know, your mom gave you such freedom then didn't she yes in so many ways because she was rebelling almost against what she'd grown up with even though she was in a marriage yeah right and she didn't want to leave it particularly so it wasn't like she was kind of but she she must have given you a sense of you know you could do anything you want to do which is a complete opposite to what she must have felt like when she was the age that she was giving you that advice exactly that like I remember so clearly I was about like 12.

6:34I had this real visual of her and she had worked all day in the office and then she went on to get her law degree at night. And when she got that, she went on to study Latin. And I remember her coming into the bed beside me, not wanting to wake up my dad and having the light on, the small lamp on beside my bed and coming in beside me in the bed and just reading her Latin books and like being cuddled up beside her and the smell of the book and the smell of beautiful smell of her. and the paper going by and that soothing sound. They were the sounds of my childhood, you know, and a woman furthering herself, educating herself.

7:12And that was freedom. That was what you strive for. I saw her. That's all I knew. That's what she strived for, like the ability and to be allowed to do that. And so no wonder then that she was the one who, I think she borrowed some money, didn't she, to pay for your first cookery course. She did, yeah. So she was not just talking the talk, she was walking the walk for you. She was walking the walk. So I got a scholarship, a presidential scholarship, which is an academic scholarship, to University of America. I guess to set the scene, I grew up in like a really tiny house in the countryside in Ireland.

7:47So going to America to university was just like, what? And I was given an envelope, the address and cash in there to get the yellow taxi. I had a couple of weeks of pocket money, and then I had to get a job, you know, for the rest. I was only 18. And when I came back, I said to my mom, like, I was like, there's no coffee shops in Ireland. Like, maybe I should set up and try and, like, get the Starbucks chain over here. She was like, what Starbucks? So where had you gone in the States? Which part of the States were you in? New York. So you'd seen coffee shops everywhere. Yeah, I remember my first Starbucks coffee shop.

8:23It was so glamorous and exciting. And I think I was on Broadway, you know, in lower downtown and having my you know my coffee and before I went off to do my part-time job while going to college and and I was like maybe I could get the franchise because going to university in America you're drilled to be um an entrepreneur to start your own business there's never any chat about where you're going to go work it's all about startups and everything so that was in my mind so I had my mom and then I had that and I was like but what I need to do is I really need to learn about food and the whole food side of things.

8:57I think I need to do a new cookery course. I remember sitting on the stairs with her and she was like, how much is that? And I think at the time was, I can't remember, three, four thousand, something like that. And we were like, how are we going to get the money? And mom was like, I'll sort it. Don't you worry, I'll sort it. And she goes, we just can't tell your father. Just don't tell him. So she went to the co-op and got her savings and they doubled the savings and she got all the money out and paid for the course. And I mean, I got emotional. It's just amazing, you know, to do all that for me.

9:32And then we told my dad the day before I was going, he freaked. He was like, she needs to get a proper job. And what is she going to do as training as a chef? Because at the time there was, you know, if you trained to cook, there was there were no other options, you know. And we weren't going to tell him the Starbucks idea at that point. and yeah off I went and then the first week I came back and the first I brought home this apple clove jelly that I had made um that first week on the cookery school and I popped them all down the kitchen table and I ran upstairs and I came down and my dad was crying at the kitchen you know spooning the apple clove jelly into his mouth and I got such a fright I thought there was something wrong with my mom and he said to me that he just hadn't tasted that since granny had made it his mother had made it and I'd seen my father cry twice before in my life and then it just all changed for him he completely got it I fell completely I was like about 23 at that point I felt so immersed and in love with food and how how food could change a person how it could take them from being a you know intense quite my father was you know very um very uh what was the word upstanding yeah exactly very correct and my mom was the opposite my father was always terrified and everything had to be done right you know you always had to do things right you know and um and that was like really important to him and he all of a sudden then just got a hundred percent behind me and gave me his car so I could drive up and down to the cookery school and drive home at weekends so he could do all my laundry and he'd iron all my laundry on Sunday nights and have it all packed all my chef rights packed and then that was the beginning of my career in food and I just I thrived in it I just thrived and went on and trained as a chef then in Ballymlew House for three years and and then went on to start up farmers markets and work with the farming community It was almost an accident that that came to pass.

11:41Oh yeah, 100%. Because you didn't have, obviously food was important at home, but it wasn't like you'd spent every minute as a child kind of over the shoulder of your mum, baking or cooking. No, no, it wasn't. I mean, I did have, I was very lucky. I did a French exchange when I was 12 years old with this amazing French family. He was a professor and she was an incredible cook. And from the age of 12, I, I was supposed to be going there for two weeks. I ended up staying for three months. because she was like, I love you. And I became part of their family. And she is another mother. She stayed for three months.

12:13Yeah, every year. Wow. Growing up. And, you know, we're still really close. She's in our stage every day. And she was at my 50th birthday. She had all, you know, we're very close. I'm one of her other daughters. And she was an amazing cook. So at the age of 12, 12 and a half, I was. And what was she cooking? What kind of things was she cooking? Oh, amazing French classical food, like baffirignons and dauphinoise. And she also loved Italian. and so she used to make fresh pasta so I got to learn all of those things and it was amazing to go from Ireland you know and my upbringing to to go over to see that you know as well so I got to see two women one woman who you know was like her whole world revolved around homemaking and making that home and then my mother who was the you know not the opposite but like her world revolved around you know women's rights and freedom and the independence and everything the Catholic Church had put up to her even though she went to church every single day it wasn't that she was very spiritual it was actually what was being put against her to stop women she just could never understand it and so I grew up with that at home so I had this so now I'm a chef with my own career it's like the melange of the two of them together it's just the perfect blend it's kind of crazy when I think about it.

13:38The journey to Italy. Yeah. You loved Italian food and wanted to go and explore a bit more of that. Tell me a little bit about the slow food. Slow food movement. So I got to Italy because I set up farmers markets. I did a three-year project setting up farmers markets and working with farmers around Ireland for three years. Then I got offered my own TV show which was out of the blue and I did it and then I became very well known very fast in Ireland at the age of 27. and I felt okay I need to learn more about food I've been doing work for slow food in Ireland and then I said is there any way I could come to Italy and work for you there and then I could learn more about Italian food and really just open up my horizons so I got the job left within a week didn't know how to speak Italian but learned it and slow food is this incredible international organization that work particularly I mean the I guess the roots of what they do is they work with farmers and farmer farming communities to how they can support how whether it's through governmental issues or any support with connecting to stores or or protecting different methods like DOPs on how they create olive oil etc so I worked with that that was amazing three years and while I was there I used to fly back and make the television shows so I ended up making five and then I was still out initially when all the shows got bought up and they got taken by America PBS in America it was a huge success on PBS but over 10 million views on the first show when it went out.

15:22It was all quite like over there and not knowing. And then I was getting calls from Forbes magazine and Rachel Ray show and the Today Show. And so a little career started for me in America where I started doing Today Show. So you had to kind of hop over there and do telly over there. All this is going on. And actually in the UK at this point, you didn't have a TV outlet, did you? No, I didn't. So you've got this amazing career going on, but you're writing books at the same time and obviously um wanting to learn this seems to be a theme as well wanting to learn more and more about food as you were going but at this point the coffee shops had kind of gone that idea is kind of oh that that went after a week so that was that was out of something bigger had had kind of come in its place yeah yeah I mean anything about making money just went out the window and I was broke basically for six years but it didn't matter I felt like Like I really was, especially with the farmer's markets, I really felt like I made, you know, I made a difference within the farming community in Ireland.

16:23And that is still probably the best work I think I've ever done. And then when I was living in Italy, I got a call. I got an opportunity if I'd like to open up my own restaurant in Dublin. And it came to three years in Italy. I thought, yeah, OK, it's good. Time to go back to Ireland, I think, at this point. So I went back to Dublin and opened up three restaurants and ran them for eight years. And I ran myself into the ground. It was amazing. I learned so much. But I got slightly disconnected with food a little bit. I became more of a manager. So a lot of people, 138 staff and everything. And so I thought I'll go to London.

17:03I'll take like three or maybe six months out. You're very good. I'm getting the sense at understanding when you need to make change. Oh, thanks. That's what it comes over like. Because a lot of people wouldn't have had the courage. Yeah. You know, you're in something. Yeah. You're in a behemoth of a, you know, restaurant kind of, you know, and all these, the success. And to pull yourself away and equally to come away from Italy, that takes a sense. I mean, you said that in the last year, you really feel like you know yourself. Yeah, I do. It points to somebody who was already quite in tune with themselves.

17:35so you know I don't um I don't worry about like change I don't worry about that I don't worry I feel like this is my life this is your life like you're doing this amazing podcast you're you know you're driving what you want to do your life and that's really important to stop stop we should be stopping like once a month and having a one-hour talk with ourselves going like am I good am I you know there's no dress rehearsal I don't get to do this again you know what am I doing with it what am I doing next week of my life and I and I do think that way you know like a lot and I think I surround myself with you know friends that that that do that as well you know that that are always like curious and like learning and um that are interested and and curious about like you know that's that is almost quite yogic that kind of sense of you know yeah having a conversation with yourself and listening to your body and listening to your mind do you literally stop then will you literally give yourself that hour I do I do I go out into the um we have like these lovely woods at our farm and I go out to the woods and I talk to the woodland I was afraid to say this because people are going to be like what well I'll tell you do you know Bob Geldof he's or or era right yeah he's like a really great friend of mine and I remember when he first came when I first went down to broadsphere or a farm and he came down and he was like i've got to teach you about fungi so you understand trees and the life of trees because i was like aren't these woods amazing he's like well you need to properly understand okay and we need to get down and i'm going to teach you about all this and i was like you know he's teaching me all about the fungi and sending me books and things to watch i've read stuff about about this about the the network basically exactly what is going on and the energy that's going on kind of with trees talking to each other.

19:29So yeah, so I think a really simple way to explain it is there's a tree there, there's a tree there. This tree needs water and is suffering. This tree over here, there's its root system, it goes beyond its root system into the fungi. They will send signals or send water. But this tree first will send signals to this tree saying, I'm really suffering. I need some water. I need help. And they will send it back. And it goes throughout this whole web system. Goes throughout, or you're leaning over my shadow. energy all this energy and web and um and it does like a million things more we don't survive without of without this so this is what we this web underneath is actually what keeps us alive um and i love so when you're in near trees when you're in the woods because people people know forest bathing well we had you know we've had a chat on this podcast not so long ago with melinda Gates and she talked about being in the woods and how important that is.

20:28She didn't talk about fungi, but I think a lot of people intrinsically know it feels good, but they maybe don't know why it feels so good. They know that being near the trees makes them feel better and gives them some kind of clarity, but they don't necessarily dig any deeper into understanding why. It's just enough for them to know that it feels good. But what you've done is taken it kind of that next step in understanding all of that so so when you go into your woods and and you're there you feel you can kind of access yourself a bit easier yeah it's very humbling as well you know so you I lie down and I dig my hands into the soil and I look up all the trees and I think about I don't think about myself I think about there's so much bigger than me there's so much grander than me like these are my great great great ancestors you know like there have been you know we're so lucky the trees we have both were 300 years old and everything what they've seen and you know it really humbles you and then I think about what am I doing like I like doing it there because it makes me think about not about materialistic things that I want my life but really what am I doing with my life you know like I'm very proud of what we've done with the farm you know when we moved in there eight years ago you know there was the soil was like chewing gum and you know there was nothing growing and there was asbestos buildings everywhere and now it's a beautiful you know sustainable working farm and I mean I'm constantly tired because working at it but it's a good tired you know so that kind of work it makes me think about you know what am I really doing you know this week and you know am i going to a cocktail party do i need you know do i need to do that is that what i want to do you know am i writing a book what am i going to write a book on or where's your inspiration coming from is that kind of where you're yeah yeah

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23:06and it feels like the farm gives you so much inspiration because i mean it the book is just beautiful even if you've got no idea about cooking and you don't want to even try a recipe i'd implore you to have a look at the book because you know you will be so inspired by the stories and you know the photography is beautiful as well and it's yeah it's so um wholesome it's just because it's it feels like it really is you and sitting here in front of you now even more so there's nothing inauthentic about it at all so where does where does it rank for you and rate for you in what you've done in terms of work I mean it's definitely one of I mean I probably think the best book I've ever done um it's you know half of this book is broadspear so that's half of this book is like you know it's not me it's broadspear you know the beauty of it and you know the stories and And while we did this kind of restoration of, you know, broadsphere, I took iPhone pictures all along the way and I wrote a diary.

24:10So it was really lovely to write these essays of like how we renovated a shed into a pickling shed, how we renovated the 300 year old walled garden that was literally tumbling down. And it was like there was just rubbish in there when we it was so depressing when we got there first. And now it's a flourishing, you know, vegetable garden with a pergola in the middle of it, right, coconut and and a beautiful. Actually, one of the first pages that you open up is the spread of this cutting garden. And that's where the asbestos buildings used to be. And I look back at it, I think, oh, my God, four years ago, that was an asbestos building, which is full of chemicals.

24:52And I remember pulling up the soil and it was like chewing gum. and now like how you can heal soil so fast is extraordinary you know how or you can help you're actually growing things in that soil now that you're eating it's beautiful like our friends are coming along going like oh my god all the dahlias and all the flowers and the wildlife like and that's amazing to see so much wildlife like life you know like flock in like we have cattle And we now have wild irises growing in the, you know, out on the fields because of the cattle, pigs throughout the woods. So we have a whole woodland section of about eight acres and all the pigs live in there.

25:34And hearing their sounds and noises in the morning. And I think especially probably going out to the vegetable gardens in the morning, like inspiring me recipes and cooking. And I love like, I can't have a week go by where I don't have friends and family around the table and I'm cooking up big things. Like I'm doing another big one on, you know, the Saturday and having my friends down. If the house isn't full for the weekend. And does that never feel like a busman's holiday? You always love. No, I love it. I love entertaining at home and cooking, but I have to kind of almost get it all done before they arrive because I'm terrible at doing anything while they're chatting.

26:10And I've got one friend who's an incredible hostess and cook. and she can cook from scratch while having 16 conversations. And I'm watching her thinking, how is she doing this? Because, you know, she's chopping a million different things. And are you completely at ease in that respect? I'm probably halfway. I like finishing things off when people are there. So, you know, I like, I'm an early riser. So I like getting up at like six o 'clock and I like getting all my prep work done and things kind of simmering away. And then I like finishing things off when people are there. I don't like doing everything while everybody's there because I definitely get, I got to concentrate.

26:46I can't do this. I can't like multitask. But people must have such high expectations of lunch at your house. Yeah, I think they probably do. But I love it so much that I, at the end of the day, like one big pot around the table, you know, it's the energy and the feeling. But I like people coming down and I like trying to like, you know, if I see a friend who's like, I saw one last night who seemed just a little bit all over the place. And I was like, you're coming down on Friday. I don't just cancel everything else. You're coming down to me on Friday. And I love taking somebody and putting them into our cottage.

27:23You know, we've got a big cottage. And feeding them, getting them to help me with the chickens in the morning and cleaning out the chicken house. and feeding the pigs and picking the vegetables for the pigs so they can eat them and getting involved and, you know, out in the pickling shed with all – no, because we take in all the vegetables and we prep them every weekend. A weekend sacrosanct for you. Yeah. You work your butt off Monday to Friday. And then when you say you're still working at the weekend because you're still entertaining, which in itself is not just sitting there doing nothing, but it's so energizing.

27:56It's so energizing. Like I love being around people and cooking and sharing and hear the footsteps coming down and somebody's coming down and I know I've got a bread in the oven and they're going to love it and they're going to walk out and they'll just see the chickens running into the house. And I love it. I love that. You know, it's a really lovely thing to share, you know, when you've created a little farm and people are not as, they don't have that in their everyday life, all these animals. And I love that. I love that sharing. You know, my nephew's right next door and he's got a stud farm and, you know, bring them over to see the horses and, you know, feeling those animals and, you know.

28:39Animals are very important to you, aren't they? And you're, I know, I don't know how long ago it was, but I saw a post about your boxer. I'm Nolly, yeah. We had a boxer who died a year ago. Oh, I'm so sorry. And so, well, I mean, I know exactly kind of, you know, any dog. I mean, any dog, it's, you know, it's an incredible relationship and people who've not had pets, you know, they kind of don't always get to how close you can be. And Nolly, obviously for you was. Well, I'm sure the same for you. They become a member of the family, don't they? And it's very hard to explain that to people who aren't dog lovers.

29:14So you kind of hold yourself back a little bit, but they become, you know, part of your family. And have you had other dogs? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so we always, so we had two dogies. We had Nolly and Alfie, and Alfie is a husky pointer cross. And when Nolly died, he got really depressed, like so depressed. And then one morning I got up and he wouldn't eat his food. And he just like wouldn't get up out of bed. And I got on into the train. I had to go into work and I was on the train. I was like, OK, this has got to stop. I need to get over Nolly because I'm really down as well. And I'm making him down.

29:50I've got to make a change. what am I going to do? And so I just put in Google, you know, puppy, you know, you know, my address pretty much, you know, you know, available now. And I literally, it was just like faith. There was this family living 10 minutes away from me, you know, the neighborhood. I don't know if you're on this neighborhood. Yeah. I came up on that and I clicked over because I'm part of that community app thing. And I clicked over to the app and the lady is like 10 minutes away from me and her doggy had puppies and one of them was teddy she's literally sent me a picture and she's like i can drop it off later today and i was like okay harry was in we're talking about the other day harry was in california at a big race meeting um because he's in horses he's in race horses high clear third bread racing and um and then i was like okay yeah fine yeah I'll collect on my way back from London went collected the puppy brought the puppy home this tiny puppy home I was like Jesus I was calling my sister going Mairead what am I gonna do and she's like you've got a puppy and I'm like yeah and she's well don't let it out after the chickens and keep it inside for a bit you know you've got to farm animals and I'm like yeah I know but you know Alfie's getting really depressed and it was like life-changing for all of us

31:19Getting back to your food journey and where we are now, because you now have an enormous presence in the UK as well with your work on This Morning in particular going on there must have really changed the game for you a bit in England. It did. I was doing the great NBC Today show in America, which I've now started going back on. They called me up last week and they were like, will you start coming back again? How do you do that? I'm going to do it slow. I'm going to go over like once a month. right um and um I was doing that and then I got a call from this morning this was like seven years ago um would I join the this morning team and they offered me a contract and I was like it was just really amazing timing um and I thought yeah I'll do that and I'll stop traveling so much um and I'd met Harry at this point and it just kind of like it started kind of like and we were dating I mean we were living together at this point and it was like it felt like okay this is really good and good for me to like commit to something because I was definitely you know I definitely um was a not a roamer what would I call myself free spirit a free spirit I didn't like I never thought I'd get married I always thought that I would be one of those that would just live in different countries and you know and I don't know I hadn't really thought about it too much.

32:45Just going with the flow. And even in my 40s, I wasn't even worried and people were getting worried about, you know. Getting worried for you. Yeah, I used to get married. And my mother never, ever once even mentioned it to me. I love your mother. I know, I know. Amazing. She's great. Yeah, no pressure like for anything like that. And so then I met Harry and I started doing this morning and then COVID happened and we had like a lockdown and then we really started plummeting into what I was talking about was you know regenerating our farm and starting our farm um so so you're an entrepreneur I mean everything you've said going back to your early days of coming back from New York that you are intrinsically that is what you are as well as somebody who is a feeder and loves entertaining giving people nourishment and giving them a great time you know to be able to combine all those passions is is it's really good yeah it's a dream isn't it it is a dream it is a dream and you know i looked the likes of martha stewart and you know what she's done i've met her you know so lucky to meet her and go into her offices and meet all her team and they showed me everything they've done and um and to see you know i mean i love having women like that as like my you know people i can follow and be inspired by you know that you can take being I look at myself as being a teacher you know teacher of cookery teacher of recipes and I also look at myself as being a homemaker I love homemaking so much and that's like that other part of me and then I also love business because you know I guess I went I studied that and and then when I had the restaurants I had for eight years I'm drilling in a business And so I love both parts of it.

34:32And I love creating something I get that I hope that, you know, little me will look at and think, oh, look, she's done it. So can I. I look at Martha and I think she did it and I can do it. You know, I want to create that. Like I've got great ambitions to create that. Yeah. You're on your way creating that because that is, you know, that is where you're at, isn't it? And there's so much there are so many similarities. actually I was thinking about Martha Stewart when I was reading up on everything that you had done and you know and there are other women who have created different like Mary Berry has created a different kind of empire and she was a trailblazer in many ways in this country and she hasn't necessarily gone into the kind of full home range but she obviously was that very visible woman in what was a man's world at the time wasn't it and so in terms of the restaurant business and the entertainment and hospitality industry in this country it feels like it's going through a very hard time a really hard time and and somebody who's run restaurants in the past um you know and you see now the kind of you know the way that it's so difficult to keep restaurants open and to even start new ventures anybody who and i'm reading something recently anybody who opens a new restaurant in london is the eternal optimist or something it was like basically it was a restaurant critic saying you know we need these new restaurants but it's so hard to start now and it's all it's all like shops i was talking at my fishmonger um the other day and i was like how is everything and then I really rely on him for so many different reasons um and so does the community and he was like saying it's hard he's like it's so hard all the rates have gone up and wages are up and and he goes it's really hard to make it all work and that is what I hear throughout all of the restaurants delis you know really small small scale shops and And I think what our government really needs to like shake themselves and understand that they're the community.

36:35They're what shapes the community. They drive property. You know, you have a great restaurant, a great cafe, a great baker, a great cheesemonger in one little square. That whole property around that area will thrive. you know because people want to live there and people will from abroad will want to have a house there because they create villages within big cities and towns and and they also create employment you know and if if you make it so hard for these smaller restaurants and smaller businesses to survive we are all going to be eating in restaurants or shopping and shops that aren't even owned by you know english people or british people they're owned by international huge huge corporations and yeah and and that's where the change has to happen like really fast because they're they're closing down and it seems extraordinary to me that that is not like part of the agenda like of how can we make sure that we are keeping the high streets you know independent you know with independent and thriving I mean we and thriving we're commenting on it a lot Kenny and I if we're traveling through the countries we do quite a lot if you go somewhere where it actually is thriving and has independent shops it it's now almost the rarity you know the norm is empty units and lovely cafes closing down or you know where was I the other day and um oh it was I was in Scotland I was in Stirling and Bridge of Allen and um my husband's from a farming family And the next farm, his cousin's farm, after foot and mouth, they had a disaster and they basically had to open a farm shop to try and stay afloat.

38:23And it's now a thriving, I mean, it's literally busy all the time, this cafe. It's amazing. But they were saying, you know, so many of the cafes in the area are struggling and closing down. And, you know, kind of they were surmising as to why they were doing OK and they're in a beautiful setup. And then I noticed after they said that when I went through the town that, you know, they were closing down these places. These are gorgeous parts of the world that we, you know, we should be shouting about and celebrating. And it just makes you so, I feel so sad when I see these places like that. And I don't know how, you know, as you say, people like you talk about it.

38:59I hear people talking about it, whether it's Clarkson's Farm, talking about farming communities. And yet, and yet we're still here kind of with nothing changing and shops and restaurants closing down. I was having, I had a meeting with Tourism Ireland when I was in America and just to catch up because I know them so well and they do such brilliant work. And I was like, what are your objectives for Ireland, you know, for next year? And it's my home. So I always have like that growl and that love for Ireland. And they were like, their objectives is to really highlight and support all the markets, the restaurants, the cafes, all small independent stores all across Ireland.

39:42That is our number one objective. I was like, that's so brilliant. And so clever. It's so brilliant. And I really hope that, you know, the British tourism, that's what their focus is as well on is like highlighting that, highlighting that. Because people don't want to come here as tourists and eat in the same restaurants they can eat at home. That's the whole point, isn't it? That you want to feel that you're somewhere different. That's what we love about going to small villages in Italy or small villages in France and stumbling across what looks like a totally innocuous little family restaurant and eating one of the best meals of your life.

40:16Absolutely. and seeing generations and generations of people cooking it. We have that, you know, we have that in this country. We need to shout about it. Yeah, and also like that, like the money stays within the community. You know, you own the shop, you employ local people, you make money in your shop, you're going across the shop across the way to support them and that money is staying there and then that person is using, you know, has enough money to use the local hairdresser and da-da-da. The money stays within the community rather than the money leaving the community. Like that's where the focus needs to be.

40:51I don't know if you've got time to be the local restaurant czar for the government, but I mean, maybe that's another role that you could add to your CV.

41:03It's been such a delight chatting to you, Clodagh. And I've always admired what you do on TV, but sometimes when you meet somebody, they're not the same as that person. You are absolutely that person, but also your passion for food and your passion for entertaining is clear to see. And the book, I mean, I have to say this, the recipe that is, I think, for Guinness stew. Oh, yeah. Which I am desperate to make. I love stew. And that looks absolutely amazing. In terms of food and health and food and life, you know, where do you sit on that kind of, I mean, everything in there looks delicious. but do you think a lot now as you are at the age that you're at about what you're putting inside your body absolutely my last book was called happy cooking and it was a real um I wanted it to be an honest book about what I eat Monday to Friday and so Monday to Friday I'm really you know I'm very disciplined about my food I juice every morning anyhow I have a pint two pints oh a pint yeah one pint I do two pints one for everyone for me um and I take everything that's in the garden so this beetroot I'll just grab the beetroot with some celery and I grow all our own vegetables producing um and I also add in fresh turmeric the root real turmeric yeah which was really brilliant um for any inflammation inside your body so it really helps with so much and I put ginger in etc and then at lunchtime and then I'll have like really good yogurt and really good nuts and seeds and all the rest with it and a banana probably and then at lunchtime then I always have some sort of pulse and it could be like butter beans and a salad or a doll little lentil soup or it could be a vegetable soup and I'll just open up a can of you know chickpeas and I'll pop that into it or else if I don't have that I'll have two boiled eggs sliced up tomato and some like rye bread or something like that um I have two eggs every single day um I find it's really good source of protein and there's so much goodness in a really good egg um it's so worth buying good eggs and having two eggs you know as clean as you can every day and then at night time then I will do I always try and have fish twice a week but it It could be a tinned fish.

43:30It could be, you know, some really nice tuna or mackerel. I had gorgeous line-cought mackerel last week. It's only two pounds, the mackerel. And I'll try and have fish or something lean. And then at the weekend, I don't know what time it is. No, it's not that time yet. But on a Friday, I always have a martini at 6.30. So I try not to drink during the week. and I have a martini on a Friday night and then I cook us up a gorgeous big pasta or whatever on a Friday night. And that is the start of your weekend, the martini and pastas. Whatever I want, I eat whatever I want at the weekend. And then by Sunday night, I'm like, oh, I'm ready now.

44:15I'm ready now to go. To get back on the, yeah. Well, to be honest, Monday to Friday sounded pretty ridiculously delicious anyway, but I know what you mean. You're more disciplined Monday to Friday. I am. I mean, people might be passing around a croissant, you know, an airline of work when you're in studios. And it's a lot of croissant life and all the rest. I just will never. Go near it. Yeah. I'll never go near it because I'm like, that's just so bad for my body. Like, I just won't put it near me. And it's going to drag down my energy. Energy levels, yeah. I mean, my focus is always on my energy because I'm like, my ambition is so big.

44:49What I want from life. But my energy isn't the same as it was it was 10 years ago. So I'm like, how can I get my energy up to where I want to be? And that is true. You know, that's what you put in. Yeah. If I go to dinners during the week and they're charity gala dinners, I'll eat beforehand. So you get, make sure you get the right nutrition. Yeah. And then I won't eat the dinner. I'll just pretend. Yeah. And, um, yeah. It's hard. Those things, those kind of mass, mass cooking, you know, kind of a dinner for 500 eat. It's always very difficult, isn't it? Because you think this is probably not.

45:22And you don't sleep well then. No. You know, you don't sleep well and there's a lot of salt in the food and, you know, you know, and it's not, maybe not the best quality food. And some of them are great quality food. But you don't know for sure what's there. You don't know. It's always good to get your food in. When you're a home cooking expert as you are, you know, that is an anathema to you, isn't it? Obviously it's something that's sat there probably for a couple of hours. Yeah, I'm always thinking about the food and where is that meat coming from? Is that from a British farmer, you know? and that's what I try to you know I'm doing my food ordering I'll think about oh I'm going to order from this farmer now in Dorset this week you know and I'll give him a shout out on my Instagram and I mean that's how I kind of eat as well you know or I'll get you know lovely crab up from this person in Cornwall and I'll do a dish and it's really good for me but I'll also give him a shout out my kind of food world I really love I love supporting and like being a teacher.

46:23It's kind of, it's like, it's part of my job as well. I feel not paid for it, obviously, so it's not really a job. But I definitely feel that I have a responsibility, you know, to do that, you know, to order from these and pay for it and not ask them for a freebie on the, you know, on the download or whatever. You know, I like paying them. I like supporting farmers. I go to my local fishmonger, you know, every recs my fishmonger. and I go to him and his gorgeous wife Emma. Hi. You know, I go to them at least once a week, you know, and I love their chat, you know, and I love that relationship with them and they always have the best fish and they have a great relationship with lots of other fish, you know, great fishing communities and they take a lot of time to support fishing communities in Britain and also in Ireland actually as well.

47:15And so your whole food ecosystem just as it sounds like you're really at the heart of so many different relationships which is so important in terms of your relationship and harry have you changed the way he eats yeah from that first dinner yeah a hundred percent yeah a hundred percent yeah he eats very different now and he loves it like he's he's like you know he feels so much better juice every morning now and you know and he will not eat any bad food you know sometimes i'll you know we'll be at somebody's house and If food is, you know, you know, might be 100 percent or whatever, I'll still eat it.

47:52Because I'm like, they'll all be looking at my plate. Am I eating it? And I'd like shoveling down. Harry will just take a little bit and he'll leave it. And he just won't eat anything for the night. He has become really good at like, you know, putting good stuff inside. What he eats and how he looks after himself. And and yeah, you can tell his energy and how he looks. And, you know, I'm so proud of him. like he's like my little mascot he's your biggest champion but also he's also a shiny example of you know practicing what you preach so yeah yeah i take great pride in looking after him god that's so to trad wife isn't it well it's so interesting it's kind of a full circle isn't it from your mom and her ambition for you to you know to get out there and do what you want and but actually you know that's also a lovely thing to be able to have somebody who supports you and is your absolute rock and you know and it took you a bit of time to find that person that you wanted to have as that you know so she made you fussy which was good I was ready for it I was ready to settle down yeah if I'd met him 10 years before that I would have been like no I've got to go live initially sorry bye well as you said at the very beginning of our chat when I asked you about the most dramatic change you said this last year you feel like you are yeah absolutely in your kind of self knowing who you are and what you want and I I really think I mean to use a food analogy the world is your oyster because the uh the growth i think of your empire will continue it seems like it's on a really good footing so thank you so much for being so inspiring and sharing such personal insights into how you have become the clodagh mckenna who sits here before me today thank you gabby oh what a treat oh it was lovely thank you and that was the amazing clodagh mckenna thank you so much to listening to life at the midpoint if you've got any questions or thoughts about what being at the midpoint means to you.

49:40I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at hello at midpointlife.com or find us on social media at midpointlife. And we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

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