Nicky Campbell: Speaking Out, Finding Family, and Saying Goodbye

0:01Gabby's with you in just a moment, but first, here's one for you if you've ever tried to have a proper chat with your teenager. On The Teen Commandments, Sarah Cox and Claire Hamilton have been trying to have some big, important conversations with their sons, but the right time just never seems to come. Sound familiar? Plus, listeners are sharing how it really felt dropping off their kids at uni, and it's an absolute rollercoaster of emotions. search for the teen commandments and get it lined up to play next

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1:17To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a licensed provider, and if approved, Mod Alert ships straight to your door. Go to mod.com to get started. That's M-O-D dot com.

1:36Hello and welcome to Life at the Midpoint with me, Gabby Logan. I am delighted to welcome back a man who really needs very little introduction. Nikki Campbell has been a familiar voice on BBC radio for nearly four decades and he is still going strong. He's back with a new series of Long Lost Family, now in its 16th series, helping people find the relatives they've spent years wondering about. When Nicky was last on the podcast, we talked about his experience of abuse at Edinburgh Academy. Since then, he's gone on to speak much more publicly about what happened to him and to campaign alongside other survivors for justice.

2:10There's been plenty happening in Nicky's personal life too. His daughters are growing up and he's made an album with his daughter Kirstie and he's had to say goodbye to Maxwell, the 16-year-old Labrador he once described as his four-legged therapist. And more recently, his five live podcast, Don't Say a Word, explores everything from comedy to offence and the changing boundaries of conversation. So nearly three decades into Long Lost Family, almost 40 years into broadcasting and with plenty of new chapters along the way, Where does Nicky Campbell think he is now? Let's find out.

2:49Nicky Campbell, welcome to Life at the Midpoint. Oh, it's great to be back. Why are you having me back? I was pretty boring last time. You were amazing last time. Look, I want to kick off with this. When in your life have you felt the most significant change? I think it actually was when I had, oh my goodness me, there's quite a lot of significant changes, but I think it really, the life-changing moment for me was when I decided to do a podcast about the abuse at my school. That was an absolute, it has changed my life. It's changed me as a person. And there's someone in this room who you work with, who was very, also who was really involved with that as well.

3:35And I think she will say it was one of the most remarkable things she's been involved with from a broadcasting point of view, but also from just everything about my kind of focus in life and how I think it has managed to help people. So it was a life changer. It freed you. Yeah, it freed me, but it freed a lot. I mean, I think I don't want to get emotional so soon, but when some of the boys came around, because cut a long story short, decided to go public because I'd heard something on the radio, went public, did the podcast, did a little bit on the radio show saying the podcast is coming out.

4:14And I was filmed and inevitably talking about what happened to others and what happened to me. I got emotional, went back to my flat. I was in Salford at the time at Media City, went back to my flat. and lay down to sleep because I was utterly exhausted. Because the buildup to it had been relentless and intense. And I was utterly exhausted. And then woke up and it was like second story on the one o 'clock news on Radio 4. And I turned on a television, there was a film of me going, oh, getting emotional. And then the tsunami started because we were groomed. We were groomed to think it was okay.

4:50We were groomed to think it was, oh, shit happens. It's just one of those things back in the seventies at schools. and it was like a mass realisation, moment of epiphany for so many people, people who'd never taught their partners. And I was inundated for, maybe I talked about this last time. You did. And one of the things that stuck with me actually was how grateful you were that actually your life clearly has been fantastic, you know, and you've had amazing success and you've had a great career and you've got a wonderful wife and brilliant children. But actually some of the people you went to school with didn't navigate what happened to them in quite the same way and that realization that your life could have been so different.

5:29I think all lives could. I mean, there's still the shadows on the wall at 3 o 'clock in the morning and, you know, there are ways. I've been very lucky. I've landed in a job that suits my bipolar and my ADHD. I mean, you know, when I was diagnosed, properly diagnosed, I was very lucky to get a diagnosis. I was able to do that. The guy diagnosed me said, yep, yep, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. My daughter's severe ADHD and she got me to get diagnosed. She said, are you all the signs, all the signs? And I can't concentrate on this, that and the other in films, but I can hyperfocus and my brain goes everywhere and I get lost.

6:11I got lost coming here today. I can't find my way anywhere. You went to the old place. I know. I went to the old place. and the guy diagnosed me said congratulations that's what you mean he said yeah you've you've got a lot of it it's it's yeah but you've passed but also you're in a job that totally right suits what you do because you're in a job you can you've got the type of adhd that can do hyper focus and you've also got the type that can ping ping ping ping ping around and that is exactly what I do and I've been lucky and I just he said if you worked in an office of her you were stacking shelves or you and I need that you'd be in a complete mess and I would have to I would you'd have to be medicated you know but what Kirsty does as well with her ADHD and she's well aware of what some people will be thinking right now she was at drama school and she did a she did a one-woman show adh me and she's she's brilliant and she rails against what she calls tiktok adhd because she's got a real deal and lots of people have got the real deal and she thinks that gets rather lessened and cheapened by those well i can't concentrate you know a bit of that so she's she's fairly she's fairly brutal on that but back to the school thing i'll tell you when it was How did it, you know, I asked the question, significant change.

7:34What, what did it do to you, Nikki, as a person then in terms of that, that release? What would I have seen, you know, different in terms of your behavior or the conversations you had? Well, I just think it was, I'll tell you what, something happened, so many things happened during it. It puts you in touch with your fragility of the past. It makes you into the little boy again. But also, I think it's not as if I was not human, but it strengthens your humanity and the solidarity that we have had marching together. It's like I always said, it's like somebody told the grownups. But some of the boys came around.

8:20And this is where I might get emotional, but some of the boys came around. And we were having a cup of tea and a couple of beers in the house, a bit of cake. Too much detail. and one of them, Graham, went up to Tina before they went and said, this is the thing. He said, could you, hang on, could you thank your husband for saving my life? And I'm not claiming any great sanctimony or sainthood, but it's the power of being able to get the message out there. And I was lucky enough to be in that situation. you know as the guy who diagnosed me said congratulations you're lucky because you do that job and i'm lucky because i do that job that i was able to say let's do a podcast let's let's get the message out there it's been bubbling away it's been boiling away inside me for years and years and years and this is actually it's like a light bulb moment as i said it's actually oh hang on hang on i can actually do this i'm i was doing the podcast different with elsa who's who's sat over there um and it's it's changed a lot of lives not everybody will have something as devastating in their past but would you advise people then that there is never you know it's never too late to address those issues whether it pertains to something as as traumatic as child abuse or something that they've held on to into their 50s maybe that they have never really spoken They're not going to have the platform necessarily that you had, but is that advice you would give somebody?

10:03Everyone walks in different shoes, clearly. But the experience I've had, they did a phone in, we did a phone in on the day that I first spoke about it. And that phone in was, call us if you've never spoken about it. And obviously we had to go through lots of legal processes where you're answering and check people out. But there was amazing people on the air. And when I rang the office at one o 'clock that day and I said, it's on the news. my editor Elliot Elliot's on the news she said I know we had to keep the phone going we're keeping it going all day because people are coming forward who'd never spoken about it for the first time and a lot of people find it it's not everyone's thing of course a lot of people find it cathartic one guy messaged me on erstwhile Twitter and said I was a year below you, you knew my sister can we talk?

10:54I said yeah DM, boom And so we did talk and he rang up and he said, Ian Wears was in South Africa. We were calling him Edgar at the time. He hadn't at that stage been named. And he said, who is Edgar? I've got a name written on a bit of paper. And I said, it's Ian Wears. and he dropped the phone and I could hear guttural, primal, heaving, weeping going on. You know, literally. And he picked up, apparently he picked up the phone after about 40 or 50 seconds. And of course, we started talking. He started crying. He said, I've never told anyone. I've never told my partner. We speak about it to this day as an enormous moment of release.

11:51And onwards, and there's another guy who was watching the one o 'clock news who was doing the dishes. And I was abused by a guy called Hamish Dawson, who's dead.

12:04And I mentioned him in my little preamble to the program that I did on the air. And this guy, he's washing the dishes. And then on BBC News, BBC Television News, he said, I heard the name of my abuser. And he said it was just a life-changing moment. Extraordinary. It was like a validation. And hundreds and hundreds of people came forward. Some people came forward and then went back into the shadows again. I had one message on Instagram from somebody who is really, really high profile, um a bit older than me um uh you know a big a big establishment figure uh and he just he just said thanks for that after the panel he says thanks for that and then back away and i tried to message him back but personal he went personal again on his but it was obviously just an acknowledgement yeah yeah yeah yeah um so that's obviously something that's very jolly isn't it It's good to have a laugh.

13:12It's ongoing. We're trying to get the extradition going. Yeah, it's not reached fruition. It's not got there, but it is getting there. It is getting there. I'll tell you what else is ongoing, and that is the incredible success of Long Lost Families because 16 series, nothing in television gets to 16 series these days. Has it surprised you that there is this endless kind of desire and the willingness of people to share and to want you to help them get in touch with people they've lost contact with or they have never even met. Yeah, because everyone's, every story is different. And it used to very often be, before there was a lot of publicity recently, we did a program on the mother and baby homes, you know, and some of these women are quite elderly now.

14:00It used to be swathes of these brilliant women who were in those terrible places. Now it's, that still goes on, it's still parental, but there's a lot of sibling. When I traced my birth mother and father, one of the strongest aspects to it all, one of the most joyful aspects to it all, difficult as it was, was my half sister, Esther, who was in the same womb, but not at the same time, 18 months older. and we've we've when i first spoke to her it was like oh my god i have my sister fiona who i grew up with who's brilliant i love with all my heart but we're kind of different and when i spoke to esther it was like oh my god her brain works the same way we're thinking the same way we just we just like completely completely clicked and you know it's always heartbreaking though when you when you see i mean you described it there when you hear of somebody who has been for some reason been put up for adoption or has been abandoned.

15:01Then they find out they've got older siblings. There are often a multitude of complicated reasons why that's happened. It might have been financial, it might have been the breakdown of a relationship, it might have been somebody who couldn't cope with more children for whatever reason. They're the same parents, you mean? Yes. It's extraordinary. Yeah, and I find those episodes really heartbreaking because I think that sense of abandonment and loss, when you find out about the siblings, you can almost see their faces when you and Davina tell them you've got older siblings and they say the same parents you know and and your heart really goes out I think in those situations because that's a lot to deal with for people isn't it it's a hell of a lot to deal with a lot a lot of it is I mean to be in that bubble with somebody you arrive and the camera is set up and everything gets organized and then you start talking and when you start talking nothing else matters and you're in this sort of bubble of it's kind of it's real reality tv isn't it you're in the most intimate um emotional moments in people's lives and you're sharing them and hopefully helping them hopefully you know helping them through your own experiences as well um and then you talk for about 40 or 50 minutes and you have this incredibly wired conversation where every word is significant and um it's you're on a different plane and then when it's kind of clear that you're done and the conversation's over you sort of go okay and you literally go oh my god there's cameras here oh there's people you know very discreet but oh are you all right yeah and you you come out of it with each other and then they go oh my god and what what's really interesting as well is when when you start off and they say well i'm quite interested to know and you know i'd be quite interested you know i got the letter and i thought oh it's interesting so you know i've never really thought about it you know it's never so they're almost ambivalent about the whole but then throughout that 40 50 minutes it uh it just changes completely when the details are oh when and that moment when they say you got a photograph and then you know yeah you reveal that they are the double of this person or you know they can see themselves there it's just so joyful and but in episode one gabby the the is this the new series yeah the new series is going to people can have a look at it obviously um episode one was a classic example of um eleanor who's born michelle and um her mom avril i was able to tell eleanor that um avril your birth mother she kept a photograph of you beside her bed since the day that she lost you i've just gone shivery and for her to hear that all of a sudden everything changes because you kind of think you know i know myself adopted people who think well yeah did she bother did she care um you know what what what was she thinking but when you hear that everything changes yeah i spent in my life trying to prove myself to two mothers, which is double bad.

18:14Your own journey in that sense and finding out more about your birth mother and the reasons why you were put up for adoption, I imagine lends immediate confidence to people when you sit down because they know that you have been through something like that. Do they ask your advice? Did you ever feel trepidation about finding out or was it something you ever regretted? Do they They ask you personal questions. Yeah, they do. And the human experience, although everybody's story is different, the human experience is quite similar. The things we say, I didn't want to trace my birth parents because I didn't want to be disloyal.

18:51They all say the same thing when Davina says, we found your brother, we found your sister, we found your mother, we found your father. They always say, oh, wow, it's incredible. It's incredible. Oh, my God. You can't believe it. this is amazing news do they want to see me they always say that always say do they want to see me yeah they do it's that the next thing that it's funny there's there's certain things people always said no do you know what i would kind of love to for a joke but it's not it's not the time for levity you know me i like stuff like that i was like do you want to see me no no but we had nobody else to put on this episode so i remember one woman was once so how bad how bad is the work how bad a word can I use here?

19:35Oh, feel free. Can I? Yeah. Can I? Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah, we can, look, we can always take it out. Oh, you can just bleep it. Yeah. Yeah, bleep, bleep it. It's a horrible word. Come on, you're building it up. This, she was so nervous. This one was so nervous and she was about to go into the pub to meet her, um, mum, her birth mum, I should say, because my mum's my mum who adopted me, but you're her birth mother. Um, and she was, and she was like shaking, she was so nervous. I thought, how am I going to calm her down because we need to get her. She was literally like that. And I said, are you okay?

20:10Are you okay? She said, yeah, I am. Everyone's been absolutely amazing. Everyone's been. And I knew it was all right because I'd spoken to her. I said, everyone's been absolutely amazing. The whole team have been amazing. I said, yeah, they're all so nice. I said, they are nice. Everyone's nice. I'm a c***, but everyone else is nice. And she just pissed herself laughing. and she was so so and it like changed her yeah so now she was here we go that's your nickname in the crew now thank god it's not but she spent she spent two minutes uh like laughing and then then she was well up for it and it was it you know so any uh any stories in this series that have surprised you well there's one um again it's in episode one there's two brothers paul and ian and I met them.

20:57We had a great day and Marie was their sister and they all lived in sort of the same area. They didn't know about Marie? I think, did they know about Marie? No, they didn't. They didn't. I'm sorry, I can't remember stuff but we had a great day with the brothers and they were kind of like, does this matter to me? I don't know, does it, does it, I did. So had you gone to them with news that there was somebody else? Yeah, well they knew already but I was telling them about their sister. And they lived in, I think it was an Orphic area. And they said, what does she do? And I said, she works on the trains.

21:37She's a train manager. Which line? I told them the line. And he said, I go to work on that line every day. And I said, well, she said, can we see a picture? I said, yeah, of course you can. Here's a picture of your sister. And then he said, I was having a conversation with that woman the other day about the timetables no yeah i said yeah we were having a conversation it was it was a nice conversation it was a very congenial conversation i was slightly complaining about the change of the timetables and she was very nice about it so this is their sister yeah they didn't know about no well they they knew something because we told them yeah but they before that so so had there been uh was what was the story behind the fact that they didn't well they're different they different mom and dad same father uh they'd be going through a divorce and split up the brothers were older and then you know marie came along but it's it's those moments like that yeah i had that moment myself in in in a way because back in 1978 uh the world cup was on and after school every day and when i when i met esther my my birth sister i basically said because edinburgh is one of those places who do you know who do you know do you know that and who do you know and that terrible what where did you go to school horrible thing um and i said to esther so who do you know she says uh she said well my big friend at school and it was she went tost george's school because i think our birth mother wanted us to go to nice schools andst george's was kind of the sister school of the edinburgh academy and she said oh that's in george's i said who was your friends atst george's i might use she was a bit older than me esther said but who are your friends at and George's and she said well um Julia was one of my friends Julia surname and then I said it's in my book Julia Kreitman and then she said and then I said Matthew was her little brother was one of my best friends Matthew Kreitman that's incredible she said and I she said I I spent the entire summer with um Julia Kreitman when my parents were away in their house in Lauda Road and I said which summer was that she said 1978 I said well every day after school I went back with my friends Ian and myself and Matthew we watched the World Cup games in his little room with the beanbags and all that and she said I remember Matthew's friends wow every day Matthew's smoking John Player so you would have been sat in the same room I remember Julia's friend and she was your full sister no half sister but but half sister also had been Yeah, adopted within 18 months of each other.

24:18In Edinburgh. Birth mother comes from Dublin to Edinburgh. Yeah. And I said, I remember Julia. I remember Julia's friend. You were Julia's friend. I remember that. Gosh. I know. That is extraordinary.

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25:38I want to talk a bit more about the girls because you put a post up recently and it's the first time I think maybe I just not noticed it in the past maybe but there was a boyfriend on the picture Harry Harry was Harry is Harry still on the scene can we talk about Harry okay and I it made me think about the dynamic in your house we've talked a lot about that over the years about having so many women around you. What has it done to kind of have these blokes coming in in terms of your... Oh, it's great fun. Yeah? You don't feel like you've got to, you know, feel the alpha that has to... Remember the generation game?

26:12Yeah. This is the intimidation game. It's fantastic fun, you know? Hi, hi. It's almost like behind the newspaper or off the phone. All right, nice to meet you. No, it's great. One of them a few years ago, there was two who've been and gone. One particular one called Ed. Is he the one that you really loved? Years ago, yeah. I think you remember me saying I loved Ed. Yeah, because we bonded on Pink Floyd and the Beatles, and I introduced him to a lot of music. You're not allowed to still have a relationship with Ed, though, once he's on the scene. No, it's banned. No, it's not. We can't even text each other anymore because that's just weird.

26:54And do you, when your daughters have serious relationships and bring somebody home, do you kind of miss suddenly the little girl that you had or do you look forward to the woman that she's becoming? No, not really. It's fantastic. And I love that. I love that essence of womanhood. It's great. And the boyfriends are fascinating. One boyfriend of one of my daughters was obsessed with the prime ministership of James Culligan. and she said to me, he was doing history as well, he was doing English and history, and she said, I'm sorry, he's just a bit weird. And I sat with him into the wee small hours of the morning watching YouTube films about British politics in the 60s and 70s.

27:36That's fantastic. And you were like, he's a keeper. He's not. He wasn't. He's gone. And there's one, I mean, you're a sporting family. I mean, you're an excelling sporting family. Your kids are amazing and your dad and Kenny. So for me, a small little thing is that Isla at the moment is going out with Sam and he plays for Richmond, who are in the second tier. And I thought, oh, this is, I'm getting like Gabby. Is this rugby? Yeah. Yeah, because I think if Ruben goes out on loan to Coldy this season, I think he's playing in Richmond a few weeks time. So we could, you know, let's get together. Because I'd been winding her up.

28:19I was going to get platinum club season ticket membership. Richmond's actually quite a thriving match day. Yeah, don't. I'm not having that. He's just signed because he played semi-pro in Japan as well. He's a lovely guy. Are you going to be Saturdays? Are you going to be there? Not every Saturday. I think that would be, as she said. All right, you lad, once a month. A bit cringe. And which daughter was that, sorry? That's Isla. That's Isla, right. because Lilla had a nasty accident this year, didn't she? Oh, it was terrible. She was run over by one of those big black e-bike things. And he ran over.

28:55They look like motorbikes. I mean, they're... They are. And he ran over, got off and says, you're all right, yeah. And then off and there was an ambulance there and people dying. There was a doctor who caught... There was a real kerfuffle. It was in Peckham. And she was out with two of her sisters and a friend. and you know i mean it's it's every parent's nightmare there i am sleeping at half past two in the morning and then bria comes home and because our phones were on silent tina was up seeing her dad who's got dementia and so she was in cumbria and her phone was on silent and it's been run over by an e-bike oh what wake up oh my god uh you know uh and so and and so is she okay yes she's okay she's mashed up she's in hospital and said everything all right she said And then somebody came in and exposed themselves to them in the hospital room as well when they were there.

29:46And I thought, if I was a Daily Mail columnist, I'd have gone, modern Britain. How has it affected her? She's still getting a bit of concussion. She started a new job and it's been difficult. But I remember I got there and I chatted to the cops about, the guy obviously was arrested because it was on CCTV. But it really was a case just to have a bit of levity. usually not now you know not now mate yeah well we could go on a real kind of e-bike rant i think and even just even just the line bikes how sometimes you know i i've the times i've stopped where somebody has just come across me in traffic that it's my right of way not theirs and and i i every time think about you know kind of the repercussions of that and the ramifications of that if it goes wrong you know and it's not your fault it's just awful and and i don't know what you know, it's a brilliant way to get around town, right?

30:40To be able to go on a bike. But there's got to be a way we can make this less like the Wild West. I think so, yes. But there's two things. There's cyclists and there's people on bikes. And, you know, the cyclists who cycle all the time are generally speaking… Well, they're quite savvy with cars, aren't they? Savvy with cars and also respectful. And, you know, they're proper. They know what they're doing. They're street savvy. They're road savvy. They're car savvy. But there's people who get a line bike, half-pissed. and yeah they may have often tourists as well who don't who don't travel around town very often but she was really lucky that's our public service bit of the podcast I'm not sure we reached any kind of conclusion there but I'm glad that Lilla's alright what are the sisters like this is one of the joys I think if you you know when your kids get older and how they look after each other actually and how you see their relationship developing what were the sisters like when that happened oh they were I've caught you know it's either nuclear war or it's the closest bond you've ever seen are yours like that yeah yeah Yeah, but there's something about four sisters.

31:38They've all got a tattoo, which is sisters by blood, friends by choice. So they've all got that. Wow. And they're incredibly close. And I love seeing that. I love seeing that creation of life, those bonds, that incredible bond that they have. And I'm thinking, you know, when I'm long gone, they'll be there and they'll still be bonding. And it's beautiful. Do you feel like when it comes to them in particular, your job's done? My job on this planet is done. Well, your job with those girls. I think it's ongoing. I think the job is ongoing. I mean, it never stops. Last night, we're in the garden. I'm having an alcohol-free, as you do during the week.

32:26Tina's got a friend around. Phone rings. Problem at work. This terrible thing happened. And it's almost, it's never stops. It never, ever stops. Or I really wanted that job. I didn't get it. Or I was mugged. I was mugged in Paris recently. You know, it's just like their little girls. It's just like their kids. It's just, that's never going to stop. And do, is there an age where they stop sending you almost every message or email to check over before they send it? Just asking for a friend. And again, you know, I am better than ChatGPT at the moment. I think ChatGPT is catching up. Is this okay?

33:09And I'm looking at this very, very simple email thinking, what is there about this that's so difficult to send? But I love that. And then we had our 25th wedding anniversary this year. Wow. And they both did this amazing little monologue. They surprised me. We woke up on the morning of our 25th. It was the day of the World Cup final. We woke up in New York and these films had dropped into our phones. and it was this gorgeous film that they both made, which was us intercut with them speaking. And one of the things, I mean, I literally hadn't even lifted my head off the pillow and I was in tears.

33:38And then one of the things Lois has said actually was how I'm there for her on all her grammatical issues. And it's not even grammar. I think it's just being, it's like an extra person just before you send something out into the world, isn't it? So I'm not complaining about that at all. I think it's a joy to still be needed. Oh yeah, absolutely. And be wanted. And you do get that. You say, what do you think of that? That's great 25 years Waking up in New York I know Living the dream I know World Cup final On the day of the World Cup final 25 years Never a crossword Never I mean Gosh I can't even think of a time But he's He's a He's a wonderful guy Oh everybody says that Honestly As if he's the winner He's a proper gent A proper good human being Isn't he He is a good human being He is But not without His annoyances As I did tell him In the card That I wrote to him On the day I mean We're both equally annoying And I think that probably is the reason why we stayed together.

34:32And you mentioned the boyfriend Harry as well, because Bria is, you know, she's lively. She's full on, which is great. And he's calm. And you can see it. He's the walk to her fire. Yeah, and also when it's all kicking off with the sisters and he's there, he's like, okay. Is he one of like eight or something? No, he's one of one. Really? Interesting. So I think that's interesting for him. Yeah. I used to do that thing with the girls. You know, with the girls that are all there, I used to say to them, like, you're all related to each other. You're all fully related to each other. What's that like, you know, as an adopted person, as a waif and stray that I am?

35:16That must be incredible. And Lilla in particular gets it. You know, she in particular gets the fact that, oh, my God, it's half a you and half a mum. It's an incredible thing. I think that perhaps those people who are born of wedlock don't necessarily fully appreciate that. It's like for adoptive people, cousins are like, wow. You're like, wow, we're 12.5 % related or whatever it is. That's incredible. We have this thing where my mum and her siblings, on usually about the 27th, 28th of December, they take over this working man's club in Beeston in South Leeds. And you can bring a dish each and it's all tentacles of the family come together on this day.

36:12So all the cousins are there and the cousins' cousins and then their cousins and their kids. And it blows my kids' mind. They'll go, are we related to them over there? And literally, it is like, you know, kind of a reunion on your show almost. Pretty much everybody in this room you are related to. Yeah. This year, my dad was very ill and we'd gone to hospital first to see him. And Ruben has got a girlfriend at time of recording. Oh, she's amazing. And Lois has got a long-term boyfriend. He's nice, is he? He's incredible. And they'd both come up to see my dad. Asia the girlfriend who Ruben is going out with had never met him before and um and so then I said well you know come to the party so I think Ruben and Asia had been going out about three months at this point and she's thrust into this like literally 200 person deep family part I thought you're a good girl I mean you could have run for the hills right now you didn't you didn't have to come to this party she's literally meeting people kind of going oh and they're all you know they're from Leeds and they're all kind of like, hello, where are you from?

37:19It was quite an eye opener, I think for them. But it is lovely when you just see... Just enjoy it. Yeah, she's one of those girls that's just incredibly sociable. That's also what I was about to say about your kids getting their partners and having boyfriends and girlfriends. Having them together in a group, we've been away recently, we're in the Peak District to celebrate their 21st, the six of us, and my mum came along as well. It's just another dimension, isn't it, To your, you know, to that kind of growth of the family and feeling like you have these extra people along with you who the people you love the most in the world love.

37:52And that is a whole new kind of way of loving your own children, isn't it? It is great. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great. I mean, there's been a, boyfriend-wise, there's been a couple of duds. I mean, there was one real dud. He was a horror. Probably best not to name him. No, no, no. I'm being very circumspect. Not even saying which daughter I'm just keeping it vague He was an absolute horror It got to the stage It got pretty nasty And slightly coercive And stuff like that And it's towards the end I remember daughter A said to him towards the end My dad really hates you He said no shit I can tell That's a real exorcet That is the end That is the end Yeah.

38:41And it's not, I mean, hate's a bad thing, but I was appalled. His behaviour had been appalled.

38:50We don't have a load more time, but actually that brings us nicely onto things that you can and can't say. You had a podcast which was around that very topic, You Can't Say That. And I just want to know what you learned through those episodes about where we sit now in society. I mean, you speak to people every single day on your Five Live show. You meet people all the time with long-lost families. And you must have noticed the changing way in which people phrase things and say what they say. Have we restricted free speech to a point where it's dangerous? Or are we learning to be kind and respectful in the way we lead conversations?

39:29I think it's both. I think there is a concern about free speech and people wanting to be offended, people going out of their way to be offended, which is narcissistic because it's all about them and forgetting context. But I think comedy is a very good example. Comedy changes and we can see things from different angles. A very good example is that, I don't know if you remember, do you remember the Dick, you were too young, the Dick Emery show from the 1970s. No. Well, Dick Emery had a series of characters. It was kind of the fast show of its time. You know, basically the same sketch, the same sketch, the same sketch, but great characters, well-played characters.

40:11And he had this character called Clarence, who was high camp, high camp Clarence, suggestive, very suggestive. Innuendos. And he used to come out wearing incredible clothes. And then Clarence, it was an interviewer situation. Sir, can I have a word with you? Yes, certainly. I'm not going to do it because obviously. I was tempted for a second because I like doing impressions. But yes, of course you can. Are you keen on DIY? Not really. I normally get a man in to lend me a hand and then he'd walk off, right? Now, one of my gay friends, I was discussing Dick Emery. He quoted that line to me and said, hilarious, absolutely love it.

40:55But all through the kind of 80s and 90s, Dick Emery was seen as the kind of avatar of homophobia and how gay people were portrayed on television. And I completely get that. Like gay friends growing up from school, I had gay friends at school, and that was what they were. That was the depiction of - Probably because there weren't many other depictions of gay people, were there? Incredibly offensive. so I showed the tapes on YouTube of Dick Emery to my girls one of whom is queer and they loved it they said what an affirmation of LGBTQ plus that is, what an affirmation of queerness this guy, Clarence wears what the fuck he wants doesn't give a shit Gives the waspy line And walks off They loved it And so it's interesting Yeah how we can maybe Perceptions change They thought it was an acclamation And a reclaiming Do you though as a broadcaster Second guess yourself more Yeah but I think I've kind of I've got a little control inside me Which Which tells me what I Can and can't and should and shouldn't and sometimes you push it, but you put it in context.

42:21So I think I realized that. So it's almost like an automatic kind of filter that's going on all the time. Yeah, I think so. Has it always been like that, though? Or do you feel like you've adapted it over time? I've said things by mistake, obviously. Because the last time you were on the podcast, I don't know if you remember, I was really upset that something you said got taken out of context. Yeah, context is all important. Context is absolutely vital. But, I mean, you must have had it as well. Oh, many times. I mean, it's really upset the kids because it's been something... Sometimes the papers will take a line out of context.

42:54Yeah, totally. And they get more upset than me, actually, the kids, about things like that. But I was very upset because it was taken out of context, what you'd said. And you were very understanding about it. But I wonder how things like that, as somebody who's speaking every single day on a myriad of topics, and some of them quite sensitive politically into the kind of conversation of the times we live in, if it's harder to be a broadcaster in mainstream media. You've got to keep your ears open as well. If you're doing a phone-in, because it's very easy. There's so much else going on. However ping, ping, ping, ping, ping your brain can be.

43:29There's so much else going on that you can sometimes miss something and you've got to be aware of what people are saying all the time. And sometimes - Does anybody ever say, did you hear that? Yeah, yeah, in my ears. Did they say such and such? I said, I don't know. Did they? You were talking to me at the time. Did they say such and such? so I'll message someone else did they say such and such no I think it was something that sounded like such and such so yeah you've got to be constantly careful yeah and you've got to be but at the same time you've got to be robust and people have got to speak their mind and you've got to be able to to say stuff it's uh you know we're you know it's a grown-up thing we I don't I want this to be the last thing we talk about but as we're closing on our chat um it would be remiss I think to not mention that Maxwell is no longer here because obviously we talked a lot about Maxwell.

44:16Or Misty little. Oh yes. Yeah. Maxwell was, you know, already an older gentleman when we spoke before and you described him as the best therapist. Oh, he was, he was a, what a boy he was. He was beautiful. My, my lab retriever, he was, I had a dog growing up called Candy. He was all everything to me. And Maxwell was, he was, he was a, anyone who tells you that dogs don't have personality, and characters and empathy, it's nonsense. He was a wonderful being and I miss him with all my heart. And taking him to the vet when he had, he was nearly 16, taking him to the vet, what absolutely gladdened my heart was, he wasn't allowed to have proteins towards the end, but what gladdened my heart was just, we had the salmon and we had the steak and he was like, still but then that moment and i'm you've got to be there that moment where the when life goes and it's in that you have inevitable thoughts about wouldn't it wouldn't it be good you know to have that option but as the bbc impartial person i say but on the other hand there are lots of problems therein um and then we had miss and this is the thing with our west island terry and Misty who had puppies and we've still got her puppy, one of her puppies, Maisie, who's now 12.

45:40But Misty was an extraordinary character. She was bad-tempered and lovable. And with terriers, everything's on their terms. But when she was terribly, terribly ill, we spent quite a lot of money on her. Tina stopped the insurance a few years ago and we kept her going. That's not been forgotten. No. and Isla called it the cost of loving crisis at the time but she had another three years and I miss her so much we all miss her so much as well we all look at the pictures and cry and towards the end she'd been on a drip all day and all the girls came home from where they were I didn't come back from Oxford they all came from I think Bria was working in the West Country they all came home because we're going to take Misty in tomorrow and we had the fire going it was winter time and we had her on, we took her back, Tina brought her back from the vet.

46:34She was on her bed and she was really not herself at all in the fact that she wasn't responding. I was like, I don't know, you can't, Misty May, Misty May. She was like, no, not responding. So we put her down on her bed. Then we're all sat around and she's got a blanket on her, taking her in the next morning. And then she went like that and she started barking. She went up, in a sort of normal way, weird way, she'd all of a sudden come to herself. I said, Pops, Kirsty, pick her up, pick her up. So Kirsty picked her up, and she was like, she turned to Kirsty, and she lit Kirsty's face. Three or four times, she tenderly lit Kirsty's face like that.

47:20I said, put her down, put her down, put her in the bed. She put her in the bed. died oh my gosh people do that, people sometimes rally just to the end wow, it's very rare as well that a dog goes on its own like that yeah, it's just we lost Milo last year it was like I don't know if you had other dogs around but when Milo died last year I'd met somebody a week before who said I recommend this service where they come to the house and do it because we couldn't he's such a big boy and he was so scared of getting in the car now because he knew that that was um he was 12 boxer for a boxer's fairly decent and he um i don't know he was 14 maggie's 12 and he um he lay down and maggie and maverick came and lay next to him and their behavior when he was injected was extraordinary because they're both well maverick particularly very lively standard poodle only three years old two at the time lay down put his head on the ground didn't even look at us normally he's constantly got his head on our knee or something and i said to the amazing guy who was doing at the vet i said what why are the dogs behaving like this and he said when a dog dies it releases a hormone that only other dogs can smell and they know what's going on right now which we were already in absolute bits as you can imagine was just the most you know to think that they then were sharing the sadness and the whole experience was unbelievably spiritual you know with the dogs having that kind of connection with with milo it is it goes beyond uh our can doesn't yeah and uh not your can uh our can and it um not your canny but it mazes slept a couple of yards away from on on the sofa, Misty's on the ground.

49:18Maisie slept like two yards away from, like almost respectfully. Yeah. And they normally slept. Yeah, so close. Oh, it seems like the wrong way to end our chat because it feels like we've ended it on a kind of - No, but we've ended it on a kind of - On death. Yeah, but we've ended it on a kind of, isn't that amazing? Isn't life amazing? And isn't the cycle of life amazing? Yeah, circle of life, it is. It is amazing. And what we - We cherish. The former chief rabbi, Jonathan Sachs, once said to me, He was a wise man And he said Will we ever Be clever enough To know how clever animals are That's a beautiful way To end Well thank you Longhouse family ITV Go watch it Davina's incredible Davina's amazing Keep going I'll see you back on the midpoint Life at the midpoint Going well for you.

50:17As always, a brilliant chat with Nicky Campbell. And I can't believe it's in its 16th series, Long Lost Families. It's such a brilliant, brilliant show. So check that out on ITV and ITVX. And if anything Nicky said today has piqued your interest in another topic you want to discuss further on the podcast, or maybe he said something that you'd like to ask me a question about, don't forget we have our new strand to the point. So get your emails in. It's hello at midpointlife.com and on our socials at Midpoint Life. Until next time. Bye bye.

50:59Hello, I'm Giovanna Fletcher. And I'm Marco Borcella. And this is Boots Off. We are friends who have spent a decade together walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans. And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.