Donna Ashworth

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0:36hello and welcome to the midpoint my guest today was one of the best things to come out of the global pandemic her online feminist poetry certainly had a following but it was her 2020 poem of gratitude which was used as a poem to thank the nhs which sent her career into orbit she's since become a sunday times bestseller she's the uk's number one selling living poet and her daily social media offerings to her 2 million followers often feel like a morning hug. I am delighted to welcome Donna Ashworth to The Midpoint. Donna, it is an absolute joy to have you on The Midpoint. I say in your introduction that you, I guess, are one of the great positives of lockdown.

1:17Does it feel like that's where things changed for you? Yeah, I was just saying earlier today, I am a lockdown baby. You know, I'm a pivot person who just started something completely different in lockdown and changed my whole life. I moved as well from England back home to Scotland in lockdown. Well, in between the two lockdowns. When you were allowed to. When you were allowed to. Changed career. My husband changed career because we were out of jobs because of the lockdown. so completely this is a lockdown pivot moment that I'm still very much enjoying. As somebody who is the best-selling living poet, it seems remarkable that you had another life, you know.

2:03So tell us a bit about pre-lockdown. So my husband and I owned a children's play centre, a very large, you know, with all the ball pools and the noise and chaos constantly. which you know we thought would be a lovely family business to run but what we didn't realize is seven days a week and you only close on new year and you know christmas day it's very very full on so we were doing that and we were ready to move on from it after 10 years i was ready to move on from it after a year um but we loved the staff as well and we loved you know the cuss it was joyful in many ways but it was a lot but of course lockdown it was the first thing to go children's play centers had to close immediately because they are germ pits so um we were suddenly in a position where we went right okay what now and I I saw it as quite a good opportunity to move on from something that might have been quite difficult to move on from um but my husband and I ended up moving from Manchester to Scotland with no jobs and no idea of what we were quite going to do next.

3:16And yeah, and the world had turned overnight. So everything was different and new and terrifying. It was quite a time. Yeah. So you were in this state of flux and change and not knowing what was going to happen in the world. Is this where the word started to flow? Yeah, I don't think there was anywhere else to go. But you know, what on earth are we going through here and because it was so collective and I think any sort of collective experience especially if it's tragic brings forth a lot of poetry a lot of music a lot of you know war poems for example there was always you know a massive amount of poetry came out after every war as quite rightly because so many people were grieving and so many people were lost and so much change and words are a great way to to deal with that and the only thing that everybody had left was online quite literally was all we were allowed to do so um I already had a blog at that point and was sharing some things online maybe an occasional poem here and there but not with any sort of purpose and then I just thought to myself I'm going to write a little poem every day and that's going to save my sanity because I'm an overthinker.

4:36And when the worst happens, the overthinker brain goes, aha, told you, told you these things can happen, told you movies can be real. It felt so unrealistic, didn't it, like we were watching a film. And so you can spiral very quickly. So I thought this will keep me sane, it will help me and maybe it will help other people. And it just went from there. And then you wrote the poem to the NHS. Well, I just wrote that poem as I do all my poems. It just went out on social media. I didn't think it was for the NHS or anything like that until it started to be used by doctors. It started in America and doctors were using it and schools were using it and they were all taking a line each and making it a bit of an anthem almost.

5:24And then it came to the UK and then it was picked up by celebrities were reading lines in schools. And you're seeing this on your social media. I didn't know about it either until I was tagged in it. And you're like, oh, you don't even know quite. And Amnesty International wrote to me and said, please, can we send this poem out to all of our subscribers across the world? And that was when I thought, OK, maybe I could do this. Maybe this could be my life. Maybe this is a thing. So how much writing had you been doing and how much were you absorbed by poetry in the years before when you were running the ball pit play centre?

6:07Not at all. Maybe occasionally for someone's wedding. So I was a songwriter in my youth, but I never quite made it. Well, I didn't make it. I don't know why I say quite made it. I'm sure you almost... It probably was a sliding door you were about to open and then something else happened. Maybe. It was a tough climb back then. There was no internet. Imagine trying to do things without... It's hard to explain to my boys that you couldn't just sort of sing a song and post it on Instagram and be discovered. You know, you had to get signed and have a music deal and so many things had to fall into place.

6:40Did you perform the songs? I did, yeah. I wrote them and sung them. What was your style? I liked to think I was really edgy at the time. Oh. I wasn't. It was very pop. But I sort of compared myself. at the time to Natalie and Bruglia and Old Saints. You know, that's when I was trying to pick myself up. But really what it was for me was the lyrics. I really enjoyed that ability to put into words. In fact, I remember when people used to listen to my tapes, as they were then, or CDs, I used to stop it and make them listen to a line again because I think you're not listening. I mean, how annoying is that?

7:22How arrogant? You have to listen to that line. It's a really good line. Do you not hear what I said there? How profound that was. I'm just, you know, seeing, is it a good tune? So for me, it was always the lyrics. So I've always had that. I've always loved using words to feel. And your love of music, is that also, it's really important for you, that the lyrics, you can't, it's not just about the beat, this is about, yeah. Sometimes. Who's your favourite songwriter then? Who would you send people to if you kind of, I mean, I love. Who's the biggest poet, the best poet? Oh, that's. I mean, in terms of musical lyrics.

7:57They're big questions. I like Freya Ridings. I love Lewis Capaldi. I mean, I'm Scottish, so I'm biased. But he knows how to make a song that is, you know, can be universally relatable, which is really important to me, is that I'm not trying to do anything clever with my words. I want it to be really simple. Haven't you about that though, about snobbery that there is around poetry as well? And when you say that, I think you're doing yourself a disservice because actually sometimes to be that clear and as you say, simple, involves incredible sophistication and real talent because people don't know how to get to that message as quickly as possible.

8:46And you're so right. It's easy to be around the bush and be abstract and flowery because no one can actually prove you wrong because some poems, you go to them and you're not quite sure what they're saying. So therefore you can study it in English. What is the poet trying to say here? And two opinions can be right. That's not the case with mine. it is what it is it does what it says on the tin there's a message there and I want the message to be heard because I started writing words for everyday use not just funerals which are really important to me grief poetry is really important to me but every day we need something a mindset shift a perspective shift you know some comfort some hope just somebody else having experienced to what you were experiencing, who's wrapped it up in a nice little package that you can nibble in bite-sized chunks amongst your busy day.

9:43That's what I wanted to do. That's what I set out to do. I didn't ever want to sort of write a perfect poem. So I didn't sort of anticipate criticism because why would anybody compare? To me, there are subcategories of poetry and there should be as it is with everything um why would you compare two different categories you know but the poetry i have found the hard way carries a lot of elitism within and you can't just sort of rock up in your mid-40s and say i think i'll write poems and sell some books that's going to ruffle feathers. But hey-ho, this happens in life to everybody in all industries, doesn't it?

10:31Yeah, I mean you make such a good point because it's like people who, so there's two things that sprung to mind. One, when people talk about podcasts they go, oh another podcast and I always say, I mean this has been going on for about six years, but I always go, well you wouldn't say another book or another music album or another, you know, that's the one, you know, so this is kind of It's because it's quite new, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So I kind of feel like it's creative and it's, you know, it's an art form to a certain extent. But equally with poetry, you wouldn't say, oh, I can't believe, I don't know, we talked about All Saints just then.

11:03Oh, All Saints versus Chopin. You know what I mean? They don't appeal to the same people. They each have their place. Yeah. And you can like both. Yeah. And you can use them for different things. It makes no sense to me. And also, most of the criticism that new poets get, it's not just me. we actually have an event coming up called the Worst Poets Club where some female poets have come together and decided that we would join and have a great big event and call us because we've all been called the worst poet in modern day history. Isn't that how Rotten Tomatoes, which is one of the biggest film websites in the world, started, didn't it?

11:38Take it and celebrate it. Yeah, and it is now the stamp of approval that every film wants is their rating. Exactly. so you know you can find you can find the joy in everything and you can anybody can criticize anything but I've never quite understood why a critic is a job imagine that was your job every day to look for all the flaws and everything that cannot be a good way to live no and imagine that we're still allowed to employ people to criticize um it blows my mind because we know more now about you know mental wellness and the world doesn't operate the way it used to in the past you know shut up and get on with it we now go actually kindness as a force and it really works um what i worry about critics sometimes is how they could put people off i'm reading a review of a of a film or a play or something in the newspaper and i think that's not how i saw it yeah i hope people reading that don't think it's automatically for them i mean they're entitled to their opinion and some critics are quite funny in their writing.

12:43Yeah. But I think it's the idea that if somebody did a negative criticism of your or critique of your writing, that then it would put somebody off. You want people to go into it with their own kind of, you know, with their eyes and ears open. And it does. And because we're online so much now, it sticks. The articles don't go away. They stay online and when people Google you, they come up first because they're big newspapers. Have you written anything directly in response? No, I haven't. Have you not? I have, of course I have. But never put it in there. I tried not to, but then I thought, no, I've always tackled everything by bringing it up.

13:18Because why not? They say don't feed the troll and don't, you know, don't give them something to talk about. But I think darkness is dangerous, you know, for people's mental health. And if you speak about it, you've brought the light in and you've shared it and it becomes quite funny in the end. you know they're comparing these modern poets to poets that lived hundreds of years ago again why would you do that life moves on yeah of course there's going to be new both exactly so it's it's a powerful exercise of of coming back from the criticism because it does hurt of course it hurts and using it to kind of not fuel you in a negative way but remind you why you're doing it and this is the why that I am doing it for that reason the mental health messaging the sharing of you know tips and tricks and how to make this life easier for each other.

14:14So where did this go that you have in you now when you weren't a writer for a living like how did you were you the person who was wise all the time were the person that people sought counsel from yes in a way I think so um but I think it becomes a negative if you have a brain that works like that and you're constantly seeing all of the worst case scenarios or feeling everybody else's feelings grieving for people you've never met worrying about people who might die that you've never met the world is tough so for me that would go into depression or you know periods of of time where I wasn't functioning well uh eating disorders and you know crash and burn I only see that now looking back now that I am constantly writing constantly talking about why I write constantly listening to other people and their stories and sharing all of the real stuff I'm so mentally well because I'm not holding anything back or hiding anything or pretending to be normal or my thing was I wanted to be strong I wanted everybody to think I was strong and I'm not strong I am as soft as a feather on the wind and writing was certainly the thing that helped you shift that mental state I think it's that so many people, if you're an over-thinker, an over-feeler, an over-lover, an over-healer, write it down.

15:47It doesn't matter what it looks like. It doesn't matter if anybody would ever want to read it or you would ever want to share it. Write it down. Even if you just do words angry. You perform so beautifully. You know, all the films I've seen of you at festivals and things. And so actually, I understand a bit more about why you're so good at that. if you were singing your songs to people, but that kind of performance wasn't something that came as an alien concept to you. Do you enjoy the performances? Yes, now. So I had that performance aspect to my personality from sort of mid-teens to about mid-twenties.

16:25I was a singer. I went on the cruise ships as a singer. So it was just easy for me. Come back to it in mid-life, I would rather have stripped naked and ran out of my house and down the road than stood in front of an audience and spoke or sung. So I think in midlife we box ourselves in, don't we? You think you've done that. That was me. I've had my time. I can't do anything new. you know and I think when you have kids if you're not if you're not in a job that requires you to public speak or be up in front of people then it's really alien and it did not bounce back to me at all I had to really work at it I had some hypnotherapy I had a couple of public speaking online lessons which in the first five minutes gave me everything that I needed I mean the whole lot was helpful sure well she said to me that first of all she said your brain so if you say to your brain i'm not nervous i'm not nervous i'm not nervous your brain goes nervous nervous it only hears yeah you know that the main point of that sentence so you've got your language and your thoughts are really powerful now i already knew that because i had read all of these books but i'd forgotten and i think i'd had children i'd got so wrapped up in you know life and and just working and running fast on that treadmill and not looking around me, that I suddenly went, of course.

17:56The language that you use to yourself is really, really important when you're public speaking. So instead you would say to yourself, this is going to go really well. Or you would say, I am loving this. This is so joyful. This is my happy place, being on this stage. And even though it feels fake at first, it soon fits you like a new skin. If you say it over and over, you're just making neural pathways. and if you stop walking the old neural pathways they grow over like nature will cover it up again with flowers and grass you don't go down that I'm a terrible person I can't do anything new you make new ones which is I'm open to new things I'm flexible I'm adaptive I seek the joy and oh my goodness it works it really changes things not to say that it has been smooth smooth uh it's been a struggle and every time i go to do something new i have to dig deep and i have to go right come on donna this is wonderful i'm so grateful to be here when was the last time that you had this morning what were you doing uh i was filming for um a lovely thing that's coming up really soon and it was very professional and very professional people and there was sort of four cameras and lots of microphones and it was all very close and i was like oh this is not comfortable for me but um I know what to do and I'm also open about it and I think if you're open about it to the people in the room excuse me do you mind if I just get my my dry mouth pastel out of my bag please because I get you know caught when I get nervous then it helps everybody has a giggle and you're not ashamed of being you know imperfect you've just got to get on with it anyway imperfectly so yeah I have to dig deep all the time but it has got to be for the joy of it as soon as you invited me to come here today immediate yes this will be you know I'm going to love this this is joyful I love your podcast I love you this is a wonderful wonderful thing no need to be scared but it's it's very easy to um to lose touch with that in midlife and to feel like you can't get that part of yourself back you know we have so many versions of ourselves in life it's not just child you know teenager adult and then old person there's hundreds of versions and I think not only do we have to go back and forgive some of them and you know visits make peace with some of them but I think we have to borrow things from some of them as well like 22 year old me may I have some of your confidence thank you very much uh you know I'll take that.

20:33And that has been a fun exercise for me as well, because there were parts of old versions of me that needed to come back. What did your sons make of this? They are bemused and bewildered.

20:49They're teenage boys. What more do I need to say? They must have seen some of this in you, obviously, before. So I guess, yes, teenage boys, they're never going to be too effusive about it. That's not a word I would give. But they're not embarrassed. That's lovely. So that's good enough for me. And that is a huge seal of approval. Although I think we do have a bit of a right to embarrass our kids at certain points. Oh, definitely. Yeah, definitely. But I'm very good at sort of, I don't talk about them. I'm an open book. I'm really open. But I don't share anything that I think would, you know, be humiliating for them or their friends.

21:27Are you asked, though, by their school to kind of send signed books and things like that? Yes. Are they OK with that? I would never go and speak at their school. Would you not? Because that would be torture for my sons. Don't you think? Yeah, well, I was asked to do just that at one of my kids' schools, Rubens' schools. And he was fine. I said, I made sure he was OK with it. You know, I said, are you all right? They've asked me to do speech day. And he was like, yeah, that's fine. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't put them in a position if they didn't. But now they're 20. I actually think that I'm using it as an excuse because it terrifies me.

21:58It's much harder. I found that much harder. I'm terrified of the prospects speaking at my son's school. It is much harder than doing even things like sports personality of the year to millions of people or hosting the Olympics. Because it's not just him, it's his peer group, his teachers, you know, who you've got a certain relationship with. And then suddenly you're putting yourself out there in a very different way. And that dynamic changes. Well done you. Well, I don't know if it was good, but, you know, I did it. But it's interesting when you talk about nerves, actually, because, you know, I've been doing the job I've been doing for nearly 30 years, but there are still certain situations.

22:32And usually it is when I'm talking to my peers, you know. So I won a lovely award last year at the Women in Film and Television. And I knew what I wanted to say, you know, and I'd thought about it because it's one of those awards they tell you before. It's kind of like a legacy award or something. Oh, lovely. And it was really lovely. And it's a great lunch and it's amazing. We're in the room and we were sat next to Joan Collins and her husband. It's a fantastic event, right? Oh my goodness. Yeah, it was a real, real treat to be at. And even though I knew what I wanted to say, and you called it cotton warmer, which was just exactly what happened to me halfway through, I couldn't get any moisture in my mouth.

23:05I was like, okay, my mouth's gone completely dry. And I didn't want to pick the water up because I thought that also looked like a kind of failing. I'll smell my weakness if I take a drink of water. Why did that happen? Because I wasn't particularly nervous when I went up on stage. But I think looking out at the audience and seeing how incredible the room was and the people that were in there, I don't know, something psychologically must have just... I've got a theory. Imposter. You're an imposter. I've got a theory. Your imposter syndrome is literally trying to shut you up. Yeah. You will not be able to get the words out.

23:38You literally cannot get past your teeth. No. My lip was sticking to my teeth. I was like Elvis. And you're thinking, what does this look like on the screen? It's not going to look attractive. of most of my, you know, first sort of performances I look like. People are going to you now, have you had lots of work done? Because I'm sure before you could see all your gums when you were performing. So were you getting that in the middle of delivering your poetry? I have to just say it out loud. It doesn't happen to me all the time. I can't call when it's going to happen. Yeah. So these postels, do they work?

24:13They're so good. I've got some in my bag. They're called salivics. don't sound very sexy do they they're so good Gabby they're so good and you can actually have one in your mouth and you know and not be seen right okay I have to tell people now and just say ah I've got dry mouth as soon as I say it it's gone alright but you can't do that every minute no it's not going to be great it's never ever ever happened to be on television yeah Thank God. But a couple of times when I've been delivering speeches about me or something to do, I'm fine doing like corporate stuff that's about somebody else. Yes.

24:53It sounds like when it's about turning the camera kind of inward. It's not an easy thing to do. So, you know, it's fascinating. But yeah, the hypnotherapy is good. So powerful. The brain is so powerful. And even though I know now what to do, it still catches me every now and again. and I've just got to go, right, we're doing this one with a dry mouth. And that's that. Speaking of doing one, I've asked if you wouldn't mind. Yes, I would love to. And you've just chosen this one on the spot. Well, you chose it actually. Did I? Yes, you popped it into my head. So I'm a huge believer in random page.

25:32All my books are designed to open at a random page every day and you get the message that you need and it works. It really, really works. And it's been so fun for me to watch this happen over the last few years and have people test it out. And so when you said read something, that came immediately into my head, despite I've not read it in a while. So I'm going to read it to you. So let's see. It's for someone. It might be for yourself. And that's the name of the poem? No, no. The poem is called Warrior. Warrior. Warrior. You didn't ask to become a warrior. Nonetheless, here you are, half human, half scar.

26:15You are healing by feeling, by allowing yourself to go there, to the times life left you naked and bare, and you hold that little girl so scared. Let her know there's a long way to go, but you are not walking alone. This floor you crashed on has become your throne. And using all you have ever known, you have grown Into a version of she The world had no idea you could ever be You did not ask to become a warrior But a warrior you have become A soldier of the sun And your weapon of choice is to forgive everyone

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27:37Wow. That is stunning. Oh, thank you. Beautiful. Thank you very much. Gosh. Thank you for reading that. I couldn't have asked for anything more perfect. Oh, I'm so glad. So I think because I listen to your podcast and I love it, and so it just popped in that maybe that was a good one for people like me to listen. which is about kind of changing. Yeah, standing at the edge of a new chapter. Yeah, which a lot of people listening to the podcast feel they are because of kids getting older, things changing in their lives, their bodies, their relationships. It is a period of flux and change. So much change.

28:17But if you think about it, women have been changing every day since the minute you open your eyes. We live with change constantly, constantly. You can't rely on anything as a woman other than change will come. And we're better at it than we realise. I think it's the confidence that goes in midlife. Because of it being midlife, because of hormonal changes and things like that, we can find ourselves really vulnerable in our mindset, in our mental state, because of the hormones and the way that they drop off, I think. But we know change. we've done change I mean you think about raising your kids you loved the one-year-old you you know you had to let go that one-year-old you loved the two-year-old you had to grieve the loss of that two-year-old then you had the three-year-old and then before you know it they're looking down on you saying bruh and you're like you know where's my baby that's the grief but it's a joyful grief and it's change and so we're surrounded by change constantly and we're better at it than we give ourselves credit for.

29:24Grief and loss in one of your books is, your latest book is loss, isn't it? And is something that you seem to be a specialist. That seems to be an area that really has, I don't know, it's been bountiful for you in terms of helping people. Yes, I've always been obsessed with grief, which is not a popular thing to be growing up. again it goes back to being neurodiverse an overthinker, anxiety anticipated grief is the thing even if you cannot enjoy the life that you're in right now because you're worrying who is going to die? we're all going to die what if this happens? what if that happens? and when someone does go that then sends you into a tailspin and then there's the grief for the world and the sadness of it so if you're oversensitive if you have thin skin, it's hard to live that way.

30:21Everyone's grief becomes your grief. So I have always found it really helpful to write about that. And it was joyful for me that people wanted to hear it and I could write more and then we could talk about it and we could be open and say, every single person on this planet will grieve, bar none. And yet we talk about it the least. we don't do that it takes a village to grieve a lost one but why not you know it's it's so damaging to be isolated in grief and dangerous and to bring it out into the community and have it open and not feel like you're bringing everyone down or it's contagious is such a wonderful wonderful thing and we're getting there the conversations are lightning you know you're not going to I think we're not taught how to talk about grief we're not taught how to grieve we're not taught how to support people who are grieving so we fumble through it making mistakes and and we're almost silent and numb because we're frightened that we're going to make it worse for someone we're going to remind them that they're grieving you can't remind someone that they're grieving they know and actually saying the person's name and with courage and love it's a wonderful thing because it brings them back into the space it lights up the neural pathways that you made for that person in their lifetime so it keeps them alive and it casts light on something that can be really dark and dangerous.

31:52So I started writing a few grief poems just for people to use at memorials and funerals and I realised quite quickly that it was something that was needed because we're still using the same poems that we had a long, long time ago. And life has moved on, which I love. But life has moved on. That poem, which is the one that you would have heard if you're not familiar with it, in Four Weddings and a Funeral, it was used, wasn't it? Stop the Clock. I love that poem. It's an amazing poem. But also very simple. Yeah, it is simple. Going back to the snobbery. Imagine at the time, was W.H. Warden being criticised for writing simple poetry?

32:30I know that he wouldn't have sold any books in his lifetime because that's not allowed. You're not meant to sell books if you write poetry. Yeah, just wait until you're not. You're meant to suffer. Yeah. It's very silly, but no, that is a beautiful poem. However, I try... But that's very well used, obviously. Very well used, and I love it myself. But I try, if I can, to go into the grief or the element of grief that I'm writing about, but also to come back out at the end with some hope. I don't want to just write poems where we sit in the grief because it's a bit like if you go over to a friend who's struggling in life, you're there to see a flicker in their eyes, aren't you?

33:13And if you can make them laugh, if you can make them smile, or even if you can just comfort them, you've done your bit, you can sort of leave going, OK, I've helped in a way or I've just sat with them. So that's what the poems are trying to do. They're trying to understand somebody's grief and hear it and not wash over it. You have to be in it and you have to be truthful about it. But also, how do I get out of this today so that I can see the love and not just the grief? I can see the hope and not just the loss. I can get the comfort to put one foot in front of the other. Because again, we're not taught how to carry on.

33:54You don't move on, but you have to move with. Life is different now. You are a different person after someone leaves. And that doesn't mean to say that that is a worse section of your life. it just means that you have grief with you and learning to manage that is vital. So I'm delighted that the conversation about grief has opened up more and it's my favourite thing to write about because I'm such a joy. Well you are and you've written a book about joy as well. To the women which you've just read from is a beautiful book that's not all about grief at all. So you have a whole range. It's in there though.

34:36I managed to get it in even the joy book because you can't experience joy properly if you don't experience sadness. But also I think grief has so many different shades, doesn't it? Because if you're at the funeral of a remarkable 95-year-old who led the most tremendous life, who was loved by their family, who created great things and never kind of had a regret about their life, my God, that's joyful, isn't it? That's an amazing experience. You're celebrating a life well lived. Yeah. So there are different shades and different feelings. Completely. And it's so complicated. Yeah. And like snowflakes and fingerprints, no two people grieve the same.

35:17No. So all we can do is, you know, help one another, be the glue for one another, patch each other up when we can. What's been the most remarkable kind of live performance in terms of looking at an audience or, I can't believe I'm this is this is my life now I get to do this I think it's it's probably that the last little tour that I did because it was a grief tour now to get people to buy a ticket to come to a grief night and to knowing that they're going to cry knowing that it's going to be very difficult knowing that they're going to have to face their grief it was such a joyful thing for me because how brave of everybody to come you know I think it was brave of me to put it on because it's not the easiest thing to sell hey hey let's come and do let's talk about grief all night but I knew it was going to be the most joyful of all my events how many nights did you do I only did four.

36:17But there was sort of 500, 600 people. And it was joy. And as soon as it began, and I realised that I had my intuition was correct, it was going to be joyful. I was just ecstatic. Because everybody wants to feel, you know, the celebratory aspect of the person that they're missing as well. But it's so hard, there's nowhere to do it, there's no safe space. And this was a safe space and we laughed and we cried and we laughed and we cried and it was a brilliant night so have you got more coming do you think you'll do more of the i will but not for a few months right i'll do it for my next take it out of you it does it does and i don't really like being away from home for too long life on the road is hard when you're in your 50s yeah i miss my kids my husband and dogs and my cats and also i don't really think that's that's who i am i love to write I love to share I love to do the events because you get such an exchange you know it's a full circle everyone shares his stories with me and those stories will come back out in the poetry and so I see it as I see it as I'm taking minutes at a huge meeting of women mostly women and it's not just my lived experience or things that I'm thinking it's what I'm witnessing and observing in other people and I just think that's a poem.

37:40That's a poem. That's a poem. And as long as I think it can be useful, it will become a poem and go in the book. It doesn't have to be good. Or, oh, people are going to think that's a good poem. Is the message a message I think is important? Yes, it goes in the book. And these, at the moment, these tours are in the UK, but you have a huge following in America, don't you? I mean, the golden ticket. I'm going to LA in October. Wow. I don't want to think about it too much. What are you doing? Because I'll get caught in the earth. What are you doing? I can't say yet. Oh, my gosh. It's very, very exciting.

38:12Is it? It's going to be the pinnacle of my entire life. This is not the Netflix of your rise to it. I can't say. Oh, my gosh. But, yeah. You go to Oprah. I can't say. I'm going to do 48 more guesses. And that's, whatever it is, exciting. Because it sounds like we're all going to be very excited for you. I'm just delighted. I can't believe my luck, which is basically what I say every single day. I'm sorry, do you mean me? Is what I say. Oh, yes, absolutely. And then I worry about it later. I just say yes now. Are you taking anybody with you? I always take my sister. My big sister, who you met. Yes, yeah.

38:51We met at the... At the Paramount Madison, yeah. She will come with me. And I think my mum's going to come, actually. But I tend to... Does your big sister look after your affairs? Is she kind of... No, but she works with me. and she looks after. How to even describe what Nanette does? She is a force of calm. Right. And I'm not. So everything that I have sort of written in poetry in my books about being optimistic as opposed to optimistic and about being joyful, I've had to work at that. I'm naturally, or was, pessimistic, you know, and didn't have that mindset. Where she's... She's just got it naturally.

39:32she's calm she doesn't overthink she doesn't worry too much and she takes the joy in the moment and runs with it so she is everything that I have spent years trying to write about it So she doesn't have an official job title she's a kind of My dad calls her my companion on the road but no she just helps me out with everything but mostly we just we enjoy it better together I enjoy it and Nanette enjoys it too so we have a great time and because we have a great time it keeps everything in the the way that I want it to be which is not take it too seriously we're ridiculous life is ridiculous we're all ridiculous you know and I never want to be somebody who takes myself too seriously um so she reminds me of that in every instant she's great how exciting I hope it's uh as as wonderful as it is your big smile across your face now and i can't wait to read whatever it is when are you going to announce it on your um social media i don't know actually when i'm allowed right okay i mean you don't even know what we're talking about here this is so existential when is this thing happening it's october what is it we can't say um so uh brilliant that's great because i think you're already very popular which is what i started off kind of talking about in america which is you know for artists and performers you know it's the thing they want to crack is America to get over the stateside.

40:57Have you got kind of global domination in your sights? Well, it's been difficult because publishing in America has been a problem for me logistically and, you know, paper wise and red tape. And it's not as easy as one might think. But this next book that I'm doing will be my first in October that is a global release. So it happens everywhere at once um which has because i have actually brought out two to three books a year yeah so if you i didn't realize how many i can't stop i know you are prolific and i started reading kind of a oh my gosh this woman is do you know why there's so many because i'm not judging them or editing them or perfecting them or worrying too much if they're going to be perfect i made that decision in the very beginning that when I write the poem the poem goes out and we do not carve at it because once you start carving at it with critical eyes judgmental eyes imposter syndrome you shave off the rough yeah and you're left with something clinical and similar to other things so I made that deal with myself right at the very beginning do not judge your poems put them out as they are and I had a feeling that this was the only way I was because I would ruin it for myself I would end up with five poems that I thought were perfect and nobody would ever get to read them because you know I was too shy.

42:22This is not a book Donna this is not a book this is a pamphlet. So because I don't edit it's like you take your foot off the hosepipe of creative flow it just comes out and you can allow it if it's going to find its people it will find its people If it's not, it's not. We do not judge. We do not shame. We do not blame. Let the words go and do their thing. Imagine how much more literature there would be in the world. It's my first piece of advice to anybody starting something is not to judge it with your, because you're coming from a place of damaged self-worth or self-esteem or criticism from your past or imposter syndrome.

42:58You're not going to get through all that. You're going to have to shave and shave and shave. let it go everything has been done already there are no new things but the way that you do something has not been done already because how could it have been you do it it's different so we need everybody to let their stuff go as it is from them otherwise everything is so similar and it you know it all becomes samey samey so let your work out share it on social media and then you can't go back. It's done. That's such great advice. When your social media following started getting silly and growing and growing and you started seeing the kinds of people who are following you and what did that feel like?

43:40Because now it's... Bonkers. Joyful. I get so excited when somebody that I know who I admire or have watched for years follows me. I screenshot it. You know, I'm not one of those people that is cool about anything. I've never been cool a day in my life. I post it in my stories I'm like oh my god oh my god look who just followed me um because it's it's a joy you're connecting with people that you would never have got a chance to connect with and they might have read something that you've written and found something in it and that's why they followed you what's not to celebrate about that and so I shout it loud and and proudly and I love it when other people do because I've met so many amazing people um and it's funny because obviously I know who you are and have done for a very very long time and we were talking earlier about the connection that we have in real life.

44:32My mother-in-law and your mother are friends. Yes they were neighbours so when I moved in lockdown to live with my mum for a few months I lived next door to your mother-in-law so this book. No. I was not a writer I was not an author and let me tell you the funny story about this book. I printed it out on my dad's printer and he came running down the stairs. I'm not an author. I'm not a writer at this stage. There's nothing in it. And he said, who's printing something huge? Who's printing all that printing? And I said, oh, dad, I'm just printing out this book that I've written. And he said, I'm on a monthly scheme.

45:09I only print 50 pages a month and now I'm going to have to upgrade and you've ruined my whole thing and my thing and my thing. So I joke because this book won an award last year and it went on the Sunday Times list for sort of 21 weeks. It was amazing. And I love having a joke and telling everybody that my dad went mad at me for printing it out in his lounge because now he had to upgrade his subscription. But that all happened next door. Oh my goodness. So you were in the farmsteadings then? Oh my goodness. So that's where this was written. That's amazing. Underneath the Wallace Monument. Underneath the Wallace Monument.

45:44Which is where my husband dragged me up to propose to me. I did not know that. What a lovely place to propose. He kept saying in the weeks before, can't wait till we go to Stirling next time. I can't wait till we go to Stirling next time. I go, okay. It's not that great. It's lovely, Stirling. It is. And he said, I've never taken you up the Wallace Monument because he's very proud of the Wallace Monument. Yeah, I am too. We all are. Three hundred and something steps, isn't it? It's a very, very steep climb up to the top. So he'd obviously always had this thing in his head that he wanted to propose at the Wallace Monument.

46:15Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. And this is pre-phones, right? So, well, Priya's having cameras on phones, certainly. And so he, I don't know how I had it. He had a camera because we have a picture of me in tears at the top of the Wallace Monument, which was taken by some Japanese tourists who were up there as well. So they captured the moment? Yeah. Oh, that's quite special, isn't it? I'm kind of sat with him and I've just got like red eyes. I've obviously been crying. So, yeah, so that whole kind of area is very, very important to me. Oh, I love that story. And it's such a view to look at as well, that view.

46:51It's gorgeous. It's insane and very inspirational. And it's where you're down in London today. We're in the heart of Soho. But you can't wait to get home. I love coming to London. I love leaving London. And, you know, because the glamour and the hustle bustle is quite good to experience. But, oh, I love going home and sitting in the middle of nowhere and looking out my window and just going, ah, green. Is that where the inspiration tends to come? Or can you write a poem on the underground? I can write a poem anywhere. Again, because it's just coming through my brain as a message. So, you know, they come all day long.

47:27I mean, I was filming something this morning with other poets and I don't get to meet many other poets. We're not a very common breed. It's not like, you know, you come across many in your life and we were having a chat and we just kept going, that's a poem. Everything each of us said, that's a poem. I'll take that one. No, no, I'm taking that one. You can have this one. Because everything is a poem. Everything. And that's the beauty of poetry. It's about taking something that might seem insignificant and finding the perspective in it that actually is really important. Do you read a lot of other people's poetry?

48:02I didn't used to. I think in the beginning I was worried that I might be influenced unknowingly somehow and copy someone. You know, you have that paranoia in your brain that you're a really terrible person. and so I kind of avoided other people's poetry which is so silly uh but now I read you know and I especially love these young poets that are coming up especially the men because it's so vital I've got boys and you know they're they're making emotions cool I see quite a few of them on social media they deliver it brilliantly don't they yeah yeah and uh I just think yes yeah good for you let's go and do you share them with your sons do you show no because they just would not listen or read read you're telling them right now because i'm telling them but if somebody else was to share it with them i'm absolutely sure that they would listen to it and get the message so i i just you know hope that it will happen by osmosis somehow and actually it is happening by osmosis silent osmosis i can see it they are um they're picking it up good the the concepts yeah But if you want your children to take something on board, don't tell them it.

49:16This is good advice. Either do it in front of them or find a way to find something that they can watch with someone else saying it or doing it. Because they're so used to your voice, maybe in a nagging way or they think it's nagging, you know, tidy your room or whatever, that they just go into a mode when you start talking. I can't imagine you nagging. I try not to. I nag my husband constantly. I try not to nag the kids. Such sweet, mellifluous tones. I can't imagine them turning into something, you know, a little bit sterner. Oh, no, I'm full human package. Right. I've got it all going on. All of the sides, yeah.

49:52You can scream when somebody has... I can be, you know, petty. I can be petty, I can be angry, I can be jealous, I can be resentful. But I don't choose it. so I've learned to watch my thoughts and patterns and behaviors and I flip them really quickly I see it coming in and I think right what's going on with you why do you feel like that and then I flip it around and I don't choose to keep it because we all have these thoughts they come into your head you can't help them they were put there the first time the world broke your heart the first time somebody told you you weren't good enough the first time somebody you know ridiculed you and humiliated you you took that on board made a voice in your own head that has stayed with you forevermore going you're rubbish you're useless you can't do that and um our generation especially and before us so I think there's changes in the new generation coming up their their self-talk is better but we women our age are unpicking decades of negative self-talk and you can't judge yourself for the thoughts that pop in but you can judge yourself for the ones you choose to keep and run with because you have the control to stop that right in the bud and and flip it and look for the love it's that thing about taking a moment isn't it taking a minute before you respond to something why am i getting yeah choosing the you know which it's definitely not something that i felt i was very successful at in my maybe my 30s but as i No, me neither.

51:24In the 40s, I think I got better at it. But as you say, it's that conscious conversation. A learned skill that we're not taught. No. I'd much rather would have taken that exam and that class than, you know, algebra, which I've never once used in my whole entire life. But we're not taught these things that actually will physically have an impact on your whole life every single day. Algebra you might never use. That thing, they call it different things in different parts of the country. um pse or it's like personal social um uh development skills and those kinds of things and i used to say to my kids what did you do in it today because i'm kind of curious to what they're actually also i need to learn yeah never yeah they did touch on kind of you know mental health and things but never it was never kind of really never got to it the point where it was a lot of stuff about kind of sexual kind of yeah and behaviors and um which is very important but yeah you're right that kind of it's eq i suppose in a way isn't it learning like all those things for yourself your own kind of yeah eq but we're not learning you know from a blank canvas we're unpicking the damage that has been done over decades where you learn the hard way to live in a really damaging way um and there's much easier ways to live and there's much easier ways to exist but first of all you've got to go back and undo some of the you know the bad stuff that was done and I think you could do a lot worse than pick up one of Donna's books and open it up and if you read one of her poems to yourself or out loud then I think that would be a very good way to help you start un-picking open randomly let the book give you the message that you need, it seems to work Donna you are an absolute force oh who are you?

53:13It's amazing to have you on the podcast. Thank you so, so much for being so generous and reading that beautiful poem, Warrior. And also just for continuing to deliver such positivity and hoptimism as you do to the world. Hoptimism. I cannot wait to hear what October is bringing you. Thank you so much for having me. And you'll be the first person that I tell when I'm allowed to. You say it on social media. Yeah. And then we can all find out. It's been a joy. What a joy to be here. Thank you. Thank you. and now fly yourself back to that beautiful place.

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