Emma Bardwell on Protein and Fibre (The 30g Plan)

0:04Hello and welcome to The Midpoint, the podcast that dives deeper into the health and lifestyle issues affecting all of us in midlife. And today we're talking nutrition with the author of the perimenopausal solution, Emma Bardwell. Emma is a registered nutritionist who says she wants the menopause transition to be celebrated, not feared. Through her private clinic, she helps women feel better from the inside out by combining the latest evidence-based research with a 360-degree lifestyle audit. Emma is very much against fad diets and believes in positive over perfect nutrition. Her new book is called The 30 Gram Plan and it focuses on the benefits of balancing 30 plants per week with 30 grams of fibre per day and 30 grams of protein per meal.

0:46Now fibre is something that I think is a bit lesser known. It's sometimes overlooked but Emma believes they are both key to feeling healthier and fuller for longer. So I'm going to be asking her questions about the science behind this as well as going through some of the recipes and of course I've got a few questions from you as well. So let's meet her.

1:08Emma Bardwell, welcome to The Midpoint. I have loved your book, The 30 Gram Plan. And I get sent a lot of books. I get sent a lot of, I want to say diet, but kind of when I say diet, I mean that in the proper sense, you know, ideas of eating. And I thought I'm going to make a few of these recipes and see how it goes. And it's great. So thank you. That's amazing. What wonderful feedback. That is the kind of feedback I like. Well, that's why you're here, because I want our midpoint community to have the right information, the correct information, things that are scientifically backed, nothing that's faddy.

1:44And all the nutritionists I've ever spoken to on this podcast over the last five years, it comes up time and time again how important protein is in midpoint, how important fibre is in midpoint. And first of all, I don't think we should assume that everybody knows where they get protein from. And we shouldn't assume people know where they get fibre from and how they get the best fibre into their diet. And the brilliant thing about your recipes are, you know, they are really accessible and tasty. And I think people who want to try them will absolutely love them. But what I want to start off with with you is explaining to us yet again why these quantities have been chosen and why they're so important, the 30.

2:19Yeah. So in terms of let's talk protein, first of all. So 30 grams of protein has been shown to trigger something which is called muscle protein synthesis, which is just a kind of sciencey way of saying building new muscle. And we know that particularly for midlife women, building new muscle is incredibly important or building lean muscle and also mitigating muscle loss, which naturally happens kind of after the age of 30, which I know, you know, you will have talked about before with lots of guests. Muscle is kind of like the organ of longevity. So we really want to build it and keep it for as long as we possibly can, because none of us want to be frail in old age.

2:59We want to be lifting suitcases, you know, and slamming them in the overhead locker on an airplane. So, you know, it's really important to keep that muscle growing and to keep having the access to grow it, which is where the protein comes in. So what does 30 grams of protein look like? Yeah. And just to loop back, obviously, that is very much alongside resistance training, too. So that's really important. But yeah, what does it look like? So I think most people automatically think that protein equals meat. And obviously that is a very good source. But it's also fish. It's things like cottage cheese.

3:33It's things like Greek yogurt. And I think we have to really kind of play up because it doesn't get as much airtime as it should the plant proteins that are available to us. So things like tofu, things like tempeh, which is kind of fermented soybeans. So it kind of it's a win-win because it's fermented. So really good for your gut microbes. but it's also got lots of fiber in it as well as protein. And also things like seitan. Are you kind of au fait with seitan? No, it sounds like a way of describing the devil in a different accent. Who is seitan? Sounds kind of ominous, right? It is a wheat-based protein and it packs in a significant amount of protein.

4:14So it is definitely something to have in your arsenal, I think. And hopefully in the book, what I really want people to do is to kind of broaden their kind of natural assumptions about protein. And so we're not just thinking about chicken and fish. How much would you get from, say, one average size chicken breast then? How much protein would be in there? You're bang on 30 grams, basically. So, you know, 100 gram chicken breast, which is a kind of small to medium chicken breast, will give you 30 grams of protein, as will a salmon steak. Any kind of piece of fish is roughly about 30 grams. And I think it's really important actually to, I often talk about protein stacking.

4:55So it's not like you've got to put one big slab of protein, you know, on your plate in order to get those 30 grams. You can actually layer up and kind of make up your 30 grams per meal that way as well. So, for example, eggs aren't actually an enormous source of protein. You get, you know, about six grams per egg. So if you're having a couple of eggs for breakfast, I would say that was probably not quite cutting it. But what you can do, you can now buy egg whites in a carton and, you know, just do a big glug of those, mix it all together and then you're much closer to hitting that 30 grams. Because this is 30 grams per meal is the aim.

5:34It is. Not per day, we should just say. So, and Greek yogurt, is that a more dense way of getting protein than eggs would be for breakfast? It's definitely the most condensed kind of type of yogurt because it's strained. So it's really concentrated. So you're getting about 10 grams for every 100 grams of yogurt. And again, you know, that's quite a lot of yogurt to hit 30 grams. But what you can do, one of my, it's going to sound kind of wacky, but one of my most popular recipes is actually a cheesecake, a chia cheesecake, which has chia seeds in it obviously but it has and it has greek yogurt in it this one okay well this will be yeah maybe something you can get back to me about see how you feel so it's chia it's yogurt and then i you actually blend through some cottage cheese into it and you cannot taste it you you have to trust me on this you can't taste it there's no lumps because you've blended it and again it really bumps up that uh that protein profile a little aside how do you know I mean, where did you get a recipe like that?

6:41Is this trial and error in your kitchen? Are you just looking at protein dense foods thinking, would these go together? Yeah, I spend a lot of time doing this. My kids give me ideas off TikTok, which is really helpful. Yeah, yeah. But essentially, it's playing around with those kind of high protein ingredients and trying to find different ways to kind of shoehorn them in. which is what that which is why the recipes are so great because you do that with with so many areas of the day it's important to say different different meals and it's simple right yeah very simple very simple and not a massive list of ingredients not that i'm averse to that because i do like cooking but there are not a massive list here so um and you have most of this stuff you can easily have in your in your larder 30 grams of fiber now fiber is something emma that confuses people i think because they think of fiber especially of our generation because you You look back and think of fibre as something high fibre bread, high fibre cereals.

7:37But fibre, of course, is in lots of other places. Yeah. Yeah. I think it really needs some new PR, doesn't it? It is associated. It does. It needs an ambassador. Yeah. I like to think that that is me. I think it's associated with very boring, tends to be brown, very kind of bland foods. fruits um i think probably harking back to the f plan diet i don't know if you remember that but i remember my mum being on it right so yeah absolutely it needs some you know some new kind of new spin on it but we are talking we have to remember when we're talking about fiber we're talking about fruit and veg and nuts and seeds and you know legumes so things like chickpeas and even things like edamame beans and green peas you know your bog standard frozen green peas that you have in your freezer, they're packing quite a punch when it comes to fibre.

8:31So it's those kind of things. But I think the key for most people is trying to make them palatable. So we all know that we should be eating more fruit and veg. But, you know, particularly for things like veg, I often tell people to kind of make a like a roasting tin just full of veg that you've got loitering about and roast it. Some nice olive oil over it, season it really, really well, whack it in the oven for 30 minutes. And then you've got this incredible kind of base of fibre that you can then layer up your protein on top of. And you can use that the next day cold with fresh salad leaves, or you could use it the next day with a source of protein.

9:11So that's how we look at those kind of areas, if you like. They're the kind of foods that we're talking about. You've explained why we need 30 grams of protein. Why 30 grams of fiber? Yeah, so that is actually the UK government guidelines. We need 30 grams of fiber a day. So yeah, let's just make sure that everyone knows that. That's not per meal. That's a day. And woefully, we are kind of under eating it at the moment. Most of us in the UK are getting between 16 and 18 grams. And I think there's probably a lot of reasons for that. I think when people try to increase their fiber, they may well experience some kind of gastrointestinal discomfort farting bloating um you know things like that and it puts people off and then they're like oh you know actually i don't really tolerate beans very well at all so i'm going to kind of steer clear of them and actually it's then a kind of self-perpetuating issue because the more that you're steering clear of them you know the worse your gut health is actually becoming essentially uh what we really need to be doing is to include more of them, but doing it really, really gradually.

10:15So, you know, we always say go low and slow when it comes to fibre. You don't want to be going from 16 grams to 30 overnight. And I talk about that in the book, you know. So you can build your tolerance up. You absolutely can. And actually, a lot of those kind of intolerances, that kind of gassy, bloating, farting side effects that people experience, actually, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it might be a bad thing for the people around you, but it's a sign that those microbes are actually fermenting the food that you're eating, the fibre that you're eating, and kind of creating these byproducts.

10:50So yeah, just make sure that you are doing it. It's almost like, you know, a tablespoon extra a day across the week, and then kind of really building it up that way. So we've got 30 grams of protein per meal, 30 grams of fibre per day, and then across the week a recommendation of 30 different plants which quite a few years ago now when I was started doing this with a trainer actually who'd recommended I did this I thought oh my gosh that's ridiculous that's such a huge amount of plants and vegetables but actually when you realize that mixed herbs or using turmeric or using gut you know that all comes under the plant family you don't have to have 30 kind of wildly different vegetables and you can include fruits of course as well it starts to become and through recipes that you've suggested quite accessible actually and you just have to think a little bit and plan a little bit to get them in.

11:39Yeah. And also, I think if people were to actually start tracking, you know, just on their phone, every time they have a different type of plant food, and of course, that includes nuts and seeds, all beans, spices, like you say, herbs, then actually you might be surprised to find that you're kind of, you know, nudging up towards 30 anyway. But yeah, there's lots of kind of quick and easy ways that you can do it. So buying a bag of mixed seeds instantly, you've probably got five or six right there. And just using those as a topper over your, I don't know, your caffir. And that is over the week, is it?

12:12Not over the day? No, over the week. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Buying kind of frozen bags of mixed berries instantly, you've probably got three or four right there. And like I say, you know, the roasted veg, which you can whack in a lot into things like smoothies, things like soups, stews. Once you actually start to be a little bit kind of mindful about these things, actually it doesn't seem quite so onerous. Salads are just a brilliant way, I think, of getting in 10, 12 in a salad, can't you, quite easily. We start adding things like radishes and herbs and things. So why 30 in terms of plants then?

12:50Is this serving something else from a health point of view? Yeah, so this research comes from the American Gut Project, which essentially kind of followed about 10 ,000 people and noted that the microbiome in those people, so essentially their gut kind of diversity, was far more diverse in the people that ate 30 plants or more. So 30 really is the kind of threshold you can go much higher if you are that way inclined. So what we know is that people who have a kind of more diverse microbiome essentially are putting themselves at, what's the word? They are... Optimal health. Yeah, exactly. It's linked with better health outcomes.

13:35I think it's also linked, I think, with a lowering potentially of inflammation in the body, isn't it? And as we know, that can lead to all kinds of diseases and illnesses.

13:49I hope you're enjoying this episode of The Midpoint. If you are, it would be amazing if you could give us a review and subscribe. It really helps. I'll be back in a moment. That's the science kind of behind the 30. And on the cover, you do talk about this as being a way to lose weight. So there is a restriction in some of the, if you follow your plan, you know, kind of to the letter, there would be a restriction in terms of the calories if you wanted to lose weight. But as a style of eating, generally, if that wasn't your goal, if your goal wasn't weight loss, this is something that you recommend people living by effectively.

14:26Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's something that is, you know, attainable for most people. I'm not advocating for anything super restrictive. In fact, in the intro, you know, I talk about the fact that actually this diet, whether yeah it's for weight loss or not it's it's a lot about kind of adding things in so I you know I work a lot with menopausal women and a lot of them will come to me feeling really fatigued and kind of lacking in energy and really quite flat and when we kind of put their diets under a microscope what we find is that they are restricting to the point where they're just not getting the energy that they need and you know that I think that can then perpetuate this kind kind of yo-yo style of dieting.

15:11Whereas what I'm advocating here is more about adding things in to fill you up, to keep you feeling full, to increase your metabolic health. And then, you know, it's not about restriction at all. It's not about deprivation. When I say if you're going to lose weight, you're going to have to cut your calories down, aren't you? If you're going to lose weight effectively. And so for a lot of people, the idea that they would eat more, they go, oh, hang on, how can I? And I think it's become so ingrained for a lot of women, hasn't it? That you just cut back, you cut back, you cut back to the point where, you know, a lot of women just don't seem to be eating very much at all, but they're not losing weight.

15:46And so it's kind of counterintuitive, isn't it? That idea that you're adding to actually lose weight. But this is what this programme does. Well, yeah, the issue when you are like restricting to the point where you're absolutely exhausted means that you can't sustain it. So you can only do it for so long and then you kind of fall into the fuck it bucket. And you, I suppose we're allowed to, hopefully we're allowed to swear on it. Yes, you can say that. Thanks. And so it's not sustainable. So it's short lived. And that's that kind of yo-yo style of dieting. And that's when people reach for high sugary, high carbohydrate snacks, because that's the thing that they're, you know, they're so hungry.

16:25And then, and then they crash and burn and then they feel rubbish because they've let themselves down. And there's this whole mental thing that kind of like the cyclical nature of that, which I think a lot of us recognize as whether it's in the past. Yeah, there's lots of guilt, isn't there? Lots of guilt and shame kind of associated with this. Like, you know, I can't do this. And it's like, well, it's not you. It's actually the fact that the diet doesn't suit you, you know, this kind of super restrictive diet. Exactly. It just simply isn't sustainable. So this way of eating, I think, is not about something that you would do for two weeks or four weeks.

16:57It's actually a way of eating for life. For life, yeah. And, you know, a lot of people found that when they were doing it, So it started off as an online program that I was doing. They weren't necessarily counting calories, you know, but they were even without forensically kind of looking at their energy intake. They just found that they were fuller for longer. So therefore they were snacking less and therefore their overall calorie intake was reduced. and then probably the energy levels help them if they wanted to improve their exercise program probably help them get back on track there as well I think because you do need energy to go and you know do some exercise and build some muscle don't you and as you've said the very beginning of our chat this is also if you're going to build muscle through eating protein you have to do the exercise alongside it's not going to come on its own I had a few questions for you that I put them out my Instagram account and a few have come back.

17:53And this one I think is interesting because although you might have 30 grams per meal, some people will have a bit more, you know, and maybe go over that 30. So Annie says, can too much protein affect the kidneys? Yeah. So this has kind of been debunked. I think there is this association, unfortunately, with that too much protein can be possibly deleterious for the kidneys. So first of all, it's really hard actually to eat too much protein because it's so filling, you will naturally not be able to eat, you know, way over your the recommended amount. I would say, and I talk about this in the book, there isn't much argument actually for going over 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight.

18:38So if you're kind of working within that recommendation, actually, you're going to be fine. But even when you go up to 2.4 grams per kilogram of body weight, there hasn't been shown in people that don't have any kind of kidney issues, there hasn't been shown to be any ill effect. So it's like anything, you don't want to have too much of anything, too much water, you know, too much oxygen, all of these things, we have to think about things in balance. Because largely, we're talking about our diet as a whole. So if you're having too much protein, it might well be that then that's displacing other important things like fibre, for example.

19:18So, you know, don't go crazy. There's this real kind of propensity for more is more, isn't there? You don't need to go nuts. But I think for most people, they're actually, they're not optimising. So they're not even near that kind of 1.2, which is the lower end. Kate Dawson says, what's the best protein? I think she is referring to from a food source, but we can also talk here about protein supplement as well, if you would. Yeah, for sure. So I think we've talked about a lot of them already. Yeah, the good proteins. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So meat, fish, dairy, eggs, you know, Greek yogurt, tofu, tempeh, all of those are really good sources.

19:57And I think as well, it's probably worth just very quickly, there was previously, we used to think of plant proteins as being incomplete. So things like beans, Actually, we now know that's kind of been debunked. They're not incomplete. They just have lower levels of certain amino acids and that they're the kind of building blocks of protein. So actually, you know, as long as you're having, if you're a plant based eater, as long as you're having plenty of different types of plant proteins across the day, you don't have to have them in one meal. As long as you're having plenty of variety, you will be covering all your bases.

20:30And then in terms of supplements, yeah, I think a protein powder can actually be incredibly helpful. It's really convenient. They can be quite expensive. But, you know, it is a really good way, I think, to bump up the amount that you're getting if you're struggling. There are so many different types and their price points are very different. Is it just as simple as if it's more expensive, it's probably better? Or is it the source? Where would you recommend people start with that? Yeah, it's a good one. I would say aim for, obviously, there's plant proteins, and there's whey protein, there's casein, it depends.

21:09Casein is kind of a slower drip feed of protein. So it might be helpful if people work out and they want to have a protein smoothie, maybe after, you know, kind of later in the day, and they want that to, This is particularly for people like bodybuilders or elite athletes who really want that kind of slow drip feed throughout the night. So that might be the last thing that you have before you go to bed. A whey protein is a really good kind of animal based option. Plant protein, perfectly fine. There's lots of different ones on the market. What I would say is try to avoid things like additives, emulsifiers, flavorings, if you can, particularly if you're having them kind of every day.

21:50and I would say, I talk about this in the book as well, look for kind of third party certification. So things like NSF approved, it's just a little logo that you will find on the back of, I think, you know, the kind of higher end. The better ones. Yeah, exactly. I use a hemp, which I add in sometimes to my smoothies if I feel like I need a bit more protein. Is that all right? Hemp seeds. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're brilliant. So when I was talking about protein stacking, That's one of the things that I, yeah, they are the highest seed. Yeah, highest in protein. So I carry on with those. Of all the seeds.

22:24Yeah. This is a good one. Nickman's says, cheese, good for protein or too fatty? Well, I think it's a great protein source. But obviously, when you're talking about serving sizes, we're actually talking about 30 grams, which is the size of a matchbox. So good. That's a tiny bit of cheese. I know. It's good. But you don't want too much of it. Yeah. I could eat a whole Stilton. So limit the hard cheeses, because you've mentioned cottage cheese, which is obviously a bit different. And certain goats' cheeses are slightly less dense, aren't they? And ricotta is another really good one. But yeah, when it comes to, yeah, I would say, as with everything, we want lots of diversity and lots of variety.

23:07So don't go nuts on your cheese. But yeah, definitely, it's a great source and obviously full of calcium, so great for bones.

23:29This is quite specific. So if you haven't got the answer right now for this question, then please don't worry. But this young man messaged and said, could you give me some nutritional tips for my girlfriend who has PCOS, which I think is polycystic ovaries, isn't it, syndrome? Yeah, it's really extremely common. One in 10 women have got it. It's really still under researched, obviously, because it's women's health. It tends to show up quite often with things like insulin resistance. So I would, if I was that person, I would work closely with a registered nutritionist or a registered dietitian, just to make sure that you are getting proper kind of individualized advice, actually.

24:13Yeah. And there are things that you can add or take out of your diet that will help? Well, I think if you're talking about insulin resistance, one thing that is really, really helpful, and we've already discussed it loads, is fiber. You know, it's one of the best ways in which to kind of manage your blood glucose levels. So, and also building muscle. It's, we forget that muscle kind of acts like this sponge almost for glucose. So it kind of soaks it up. So the more muscle that you've got, and the more fibre that you are eating, you know, you're kind of you're putting yourself in a really good kind of position.

24:48And you at most, through the book, the message seems to be no alcohol on the diet. When you want to live your life and just kind of follow this as a way of eating, where does alcohol come in? So yeah, I'm certainly not. I guess with my nutritionist hat on, I have to say that there is no kind of you know health benefits to alcohol but I am human and I love you know going out with my friends and socializing and so I think it depends doesn't it I think we can definitely make space for it if that is something that we think is important in life and obviously making memories and hanging out with your friends is incredibly important.

25:30What's the best way to counter it then if you are going to drink alcohol yeah asking for a friend um i would say electrolytes so i would have even just you know cheap and cheerful kind of diarylite you know when you've got really bad diarrhea and you want to kind of replace those um electrolytes really quickly a diarylite sachet this is my top tip one before you go to bed after you know a night of overindulgence and then one again in the morning actually works wonders. Really? So even just like a couple of glasses of wine, you would recommend that? Well, I was kind of thinking more of a... You were thinking of a bigger night?

26:08A big night, yeah. Okay, fine. Right. Okay. So that's hangover prevention, it sounds like there as well. Because they, I mean, after two glasses of wine, the hangover is definitely coming my way at the moment. Same. I think there's a lot of questions about what does an ideal day of food look like? And I would say, but you're going to have to get the book and have a look because there are lots of plans in there. But this is a good question. Louise Loves says, healthy lunch options, please, when I'm busy at work. And I think this is a problem with a lot of people's kind of wants and needs and desires to change the way they eat is overcome by the practicalities of life.

26:42And getting planning kind of is, you know, being ahead of the game in terms of having the ingredients is one thing and using leftovers. But if you're at work and you haven't done all those things, you know, you haven't brought your own lunchbox with you and you haven't got the ingredients at work to make something you know where do you go for a quick healthy lunch so i think these days it's really easy actually to get your kind of a healthy lunch on the go so think places like pret you know they do amazing kind of like protein rich salads so there's a really good one that they do with crayfish for example i would also think about you know if let's say that you really like soup for example and you've got your pret soup then kind of just layering it up and trying to make it a little bit more robust by perhaps grabbing something from a supermarket so just grabbing a mackerel fillet or a pre-cooked chicken fillet you know just shredding it up and putting it on top some edamame beans which you can buy in little boxes now and then suddenly you've gone from a kind of soup that probably wouldn't keep you feeling full for very long to a full-blown proper meal that will hopefully, you know, keep you going till your next meal.

27:52And if you are choosing a soup option, then from what you've said there, it's going for the highest protein content soup. So it would be either a fish chowder or chicken soup if you, if you had those options rather than a vegetable soup. Yeah, ideally, or something with beans, although beans, you know, they're not an amazing source of protein, I'm going to be absolutely honest with you. So yeah, something, you know, just a little bit more kind of, yeah, robust. Okay. And in terms of fasting within this idea and this plan of eating, it would seem with three meals a day, you're not going to be really encouraging people to go for long periods without food.

28:31I think fasting, for some people, they love it. And it's a way of them kind of managing their energy intake. But I think there is more and more research coming out now, which kind of points, particularly for women, that it's not that helpful. And I think, again, it's that more is more kind of mentality where I see women kind of pushing through till 1, 2pm, and you know, suddenly they are absolutely famished, and then they've got no willpower. And we do know, actually, now that we are slightly more insulin sensitive earlier on in the day, which means it kind of makes sense to be eating, you know, more earlier, actually, rather than what most people do and we're skipping breakfast and then eating more kind of later on.

29:19Right. Yeah. We had this conversation, a few friends and I recently about various advice coming out that we've all been in the mindset that we do the exercise first before we have breakfast. And then hearing experts saying, well, you should have some protein before you do that exercise. and often that doesn't feel practical. I don't feel like I want to eat that straight away if I'm going to do some exercise straight away. So I try to get into the habit of grabbing a handful of nuts at least before I go and do some exercise. Would you advocate trying to get some protein in you before you exercise?

29:50Well, it's interesting. How do you feel? Do you feel that that helps your performance? Oh, I mean, at 52, I don't think I'm performing anywhere particularly well in the gym. Come on. That's interesting, actually. Yeah, I think it probably does. I mean, especially, it's interesting you say that I've been going on long, long cycle rides with my husband recently, like three hours. And I couldn't even imagine going out without some protein before those. And yet he goes out without, and I definitely feel better for it. So yes, it probably does help me. It's interesting. It's really interesting. I think it's very, very individualized.

30:25And I know, I think I know the person that you are talking about is kind of giving out this information. And it is very complicated for your average person to work out what 15 grams of protein looks like. And I think a lot of actual, you know, elite athletes, marathon runners, they actually do train fasted. So it's very much what works for you. Yeah, exactly. I don't think there's any kind of hard and fast rules. I think there's a lot. So do what suits you. Yeah, there's a lot, as with most things, kind of nutrition. There's a lot of trial and error involved, you know. There is. But I think it's the psychological thing when I go out thinking I'm going to be out for three hours.

31:05I can't go out of anything. But actually, I don't want much. It's just something almost to to sate any idea that I'm going to get hungry on that bike. So I think that is very, very good advice. Thank you very much for that. And for all your advice, as I said at the very beginning, there are some gorgeous recipes that are really easy. And I don't mean that in a way that, you know, I don't know whether it's a compliment or not to say they're really easy. But I think it's important that they're accessible for people, because especially when you're busy and you come home from work and you don't want to have to spend three hours marinating something to you, you know, that night.

31:38But you can marinate stuff overnight, of course, if you have a look. But get planned, I would say, and get prepped, you know, get a few things in the larder. and it'll actually be quite a straightforward way of hopefully improving the way you eat and feel about yourself. And that is the message of the book, I think. So, Emma, thank you so much for coming on, explaining a little bit more about those numbers. The 30 Gram Plan is out now. Thank you so much. It's been lovely chatting.

32:07My deepest gratitude to Emma for joining us and sharing some of the knowledge and expertise that have gone into her new book, The 30 Gram Plan. And it can seem overwhelming at first, especially when you hear we've got to eat 30 plants a week. But there are so many genuinely delicious recipes in the book and on Emma's Instagram that even incorporating a few of them into your weekly meals is going to be a positive change, I'm absolutely sure. And once you get going, you'll be amazed what little tweaks and adaptations you can make that some of your favourite meals already can become a little bit more protein-filled, a bit more fibre in them and a few more vegetables as well.

32:40so do let me know if you found this episode interesting or helpful or both by leaving a rating and a review there's a lot more good stuff to come on the midpoint so i really hope you can join me again next wednesday take care