Family Special - Kenny and Lois

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0:30Well, today on The Midpoint, I'm delighted to say I have some familiar guests, but they haven't been on for a while. So it is a very big welcome back to The Midpoint to Lois Logan and Kenny Logan, a.k.a. I can say my name first. Yeah, I know, you're most important. A.k.a. The Family. Thank you, Gabs, for having us on. Yeah, and I like how you're swinging in the chairs because you've not been in this studio before. I feel like I'm at school. Jesus, I don't go back to school. Let's not go down that road. Let's not. We haven't done a podcast in the studio because we normally do them in the familiar surroundings of the home studio.

1:05And I've brought you into deepest, darkest London. You're in Soho. No, I brought Lois a scone from Gales. Other lovely high street bakeries are available. But it's a big deal for Lois to come into London, isn't it? Yeah, you're right, Lois. No, it's fine. I'm not... I don't... I actually today quite like London because it's quite vibrant here in Soho. But no, I don't particularly love London. Cities generally. Why? It's just quite overwhelming. A lot of people. And it's just like, oh, he's going to run out in front of the car now. Stop! You know? We came to London. You went with us. We came to watch the famous Palladium Panto.

1:51That was good. Yeah, pre-Christmas, which you have to come to London to see that because it's at the Palladium. And Julian Clary, your pal, was in it. and we were walking down from the tube down Regent Street and she was, Lois was next to me, she just went, oh God, I hate this. There were so many people. Okay, I sound really sort of... Weird. No, I mean, I'm sure there's lots of people that can understand the feeling of... It's just like, oh, people are stepping on my toes. Have you seen the shoes you've got on today though? Yeah, I've got the wrong shoes. They're not actually shoes. She's wearing ballet shoes.

2:20But I do, I do, I can appreciate London in... Today is nice, you know, Soho's lovely, but when it's... Christmas time and it's all it's just there's a lot there's a lot but I think you also oh so I'm kind of scared to mug my handbag on my phone now you've been watching too much I'm like my arms clamped under my shoulder do you know crime has actually gone down on the streets has it? yeah have you got your facts for that be careful yeah where's the facts what's the number of them that's a big call guys come on that is a big call I shouldn't say that without verifying yes but I did see some statistics the other day on TikTok fake news was it in an article describing how kind of, you know, hysteria can lead to hysteria.

3:00And actually, you, I'm sure, have fed a lot of stuff in your algorithm about keeping your phone. And it's true. You should keep your phone in the right place. We all know people who've had their phone nicked off them and things. That's the thing. We all know people that have had their phone nicked off them. OK, so anecdotally, things aren't great. But you are definitely, if you had to put you into a group, you are somebody who loves nature, countryside. I like being, yeah. I'm very happy to just be alone in a field with a horse or a cow. As long as the grass is good. And yet you are unbelievably good at being with people and socialising.

3:35So you're kind of a real paradox. Is it very hard for you to socialise? No. Does it take a lot of your social battery when you're with? I don't know. I think I would. I used to say, yeah, my social battery. I don't really think I have a social battery to begin with. I think I just have a kind of version of me that is very happy to just be alone and do my own things. And And then a version of me that likes to... Because when I am out with my friends and doing things, I really enjoy it and I generally tend to have a very good time. But there's also that kind of devil on my shoulder being like, Stay here.

4:07Read a book. Go to bed at 8 o 'clock with some sleepy tea. That's your mum. I mean, I'm 20. It's a bit embarrassing, really. But then I do go out sometimes. I know you do, yeah. You picked the perfect university, though. Yeah, I know there are lots of... It's nice and coddled. Loughborough is so sporty that it's not unusual for people to go to bed with a cup of tea at 8 o 'clock because they've got a race in the morning. Yeah, that's the thing. That is nice about it. And I still go to Nottingham and stuff for a night. And quite obviously the night life at Nottingham is much better. But yeah, I like a pub.

4:45I like a conversation. I don't really like to come home and feel my eardrums for the next 24 hours. That's what happens at home. Since you've left, that's what happens. We had a very sociable weekend because Lois' boyfriend's cams, the South African golfer, as the Daily Telegraph called him. I think it's hello, actually. Was it hello? He brought his family, his whole family. He's lovely. Mum and dad and brother and sister for the first time came round. Sorry, sister-in-law, potentially. His brother and his brother's girlfriend came round for lunch, which was really lovely. First time that's ever happened.

5:21That was quite a lot, wasn't it? Because we had my family there as well. Not really for me. I don't find stuff like that overwhelming at all. Well, maybe it was a lot for you, but not for me. I suppose you're the one that did all the cooking, so maybe it was a lot for you. I did the cleaning up. Did you feel at all worried about that, that your boyfriend's parents were coming around for the first time? I mean, it has been four years. Yeah, not really. I was looking forward to it. I mean, there's always that bit of like, I hope you guys get on. I was a bit worried that there was going to be like bouts of awkward silence because that's where I think in social situations I'm not very good because I like to just feel silence and often I find myself oversharing and I walk away from a conversation and I go, just met that person and they know that my dog died when I was seven now.

6:00You know, so it's sometimes I'm like, oh. Too much. I'm a wee bit like that. Yeah. Because I would call myself a, I don't know, I once did a test at school and it said I was an extrovert but then I sometimes think, I don't know, I'm extroverted when I am in a social setting but then I'm also quite happy to be yourself. I'm very similar to you because I like being not at all. You're very extroverted. I like to be outside doing stuff from the point of view of how you said being with animals I love all that and when I was younger I felt I needed to be with people but now I quite enjoy not being with people and just being in the garden doing stuff and plodding away all day and actually really good for my own inner mind but you've got a very people kind of focused job so you have to use your interpersonal skills which I like I don't mind doing that yeah so it's probably the antidote or the onverse of that is how you get your mental release and your down time right well what I really want to talk about today is not Larissa's personality type whether or not she someone let me know I don't know whether she likes cities or not is what's your favourite city by the way I mean I haven't been since I was what like eight but I really like to where oh Rome yeah I really like Rome you've all been there I like anything Paris should we go back to Rome oh Paris I love Paris But anything with a bit of, I know that London obviously does have culture, but anything with really old sort of beautiful...

7:28So you liked Rome, and you made a great observation when we were in Rome. We were walking along the street, and we did all the touristy things, obviously, and I had a hold of your hands, obviously, and you said to me, oh, everybody smokes in Italy, and you said, and they all smoke in my face, because what I realised was people hold their cigarettes down at waste level, and you were just walking in. Age eight, you're not viable. That is the one thing I do really remember from Rome is how bad it stank of smoke. But I think if I went back there now, I wouldn't. Yeah, I was at the height of... You do notice it.

8:01I notice it because I travel in Europe a lot. The smoking ban, though. In restaurants and stuff. Yeah. In certain places, but not in others. We were talking about this the other day. I think in cafes they are. Yeah. They sort of seem to be smoking. In Paris, outside, not inside. We were in Belgrade, which I know is not exactly going to lead the way in anti-smoking, at the World Indoor Athletics Championships a few years ago. Smoking championship. They were smoking inside the athletics. It was indoors. I mean, that's mental. Well, I was telling those when they used to smoke at the back of the plane.

8:29Remember that? Yeah. I can't imagine getting a plane going. Pull a curtain across. Yeah, I think, well, my generation doesn't really smoke, so. No. Vapours? Well, obviously there's a lot. I mean, less so now. More when we were 15. Not me. Never me. Good girl, Loss. Genuinely, never me. Not interested in flavoured juice. You didn't want to try somebody's? Yeah, I definitely tried a vape. I used to make me feel quite sick, so I stopped. I actually never started. I stopped after one blow. It's not my thing. See, I told you I'd get a load of secrets in your house today. You're going to be grounded.

9:08Careful. We don't want any clickbait here, do you know, Lois? Yeah, I don't want any clickbait. Lois was the subject of... I had a podcast episode with Jenny Faulkner and just very much in passing said about how Lois had found out that she'd had polycystic ovaries and that's why she'd stopped doing intense running. And this was turned into an article in a well-known daily newspaper that might have daily in the title. As Lois is... I have a suffering a chronic health issue. And then they said, never going to be able to do any sort of, oh, it's going to affect my career as the athlete that I am.

9:44and yeah I was slightly furious with it because it also said that I had facial hair I was going to gain excessive weight news to me I was like am I? wow because you the reason why I know I didn't I didn't mind mentioning it was because when we first came out of the appointment where you'd kind of found out you said oh I want to do a podcast on this because did I? yeah obviously you haven't but you said because I didn't know anything about this and 25 % of women have polycystic ovaries one of five women yeah wow And it can lead often to endometriosis for some people, which is another condition.

10:16Do you have it? Do you can get it lit on? No, no. It's a genetic condition. We're both not scientists. It also doesn't lead to endometriosis. You can mean you have endometriosis as well, potentially. Your stats are wrong today. Let's edit that bit out. Let's not get scientific, Gabby, because you're not a scientist. It's the basics. Yeah, but it was a very real... I've spoken to a few people who have PCOS, and it's very freeing to know you have it, because kind of all these things that you've had. Yeah, and also it comes in, like anything, it comes in different shapes and sizes. So I don't have a hairy face.

10:48I've not gained excessive weight. You know, I kind of look normal and healthy, but there are all these things that are happening with my hormones that are not different to most women because one in five women have it. So, yeah, I just feel like it's a shame that it wasn't something I never learned about at school. Yeah, and it's a shame that there was a, you know, essentially a piece of cannon fodder made about... Yeah, there was some horror... I mean, I try not to, I shouldn't read comments on things like that. But I didn't ask to be outed. Yeah, but I also, you know, I just like... It's also good to speak about it because other people might not speak about it.

11:20Well, no, yeah. Because they're scared of all that. Because one of the things that it can lead to is massive sugar cravings, which Lois has. Yeah, I love sugar, yeah. And she understood her sugar cravings more because it's to do with... Get that from your mum. She has sweet tooth. What? She's such a sweet tooth. Well, this is the irony of it because obviously I don't have a sweet tooth, just in case. And Kenny found out there was a genetic, there's a genetic link with PCOS, the doctor told us. And I said, oh, well, I know I haven't got it because I had a major gynecological investigation before I had an IVF.

11:48But you... It's my mum, it's my mum. No, it's not. Dad literally said... Mum came in and said, well, we think it's come from you, Kenny. He goes, do you think I've got it? No, Dad, you've not got ovaries. I didn't mean that. Yeah, you've not got PCOS. But you said, I've got a really bad sweet tooth as well. Anyway. I can't hear we laugh. No prostate. Moral of the story is... You're not left. Moral of the story is PCOS is not... The moral of the story is... It's relatively normal. Let's not do anything. Let's not label things. Yes, exactly. Good point. Well done, Lois. So, okay, long-winded way of getting to the...

12:23I wouldn't even call that was a way, to be honest. It was more of a sort of... Meander. You've done this before. This would. I want to talk... Are you nervous? I want to talk today about motivation, actually. we went for a walk yesterday dad and i with the dogs and it was a beautiful morning and i think we both i could tell we were both really up and our mood is really good and we were both chatting about things and even the day before i just felt in a real slump and a real thug on sunday and kind of like just couldn't get myself going sunday blues well it kind of like sunday you know is often a day when people just crash a little bit but i'm often working on a sunday so i don't always get a data crash almost.

13:03And motivation is such a difficult thing to get hold of. You can't kind of describe it to somebody. You try and tell people, well, you just need a bit more motivation. It's like telling someone to not be sad, isn't it? Yeah, and it is so important, isn't it, to have consistency in that, but it's really hard to have consistency. And I know you've been struggling a bit lately, Lois, haven't you, motivation? Yeah, a little bit. So I thought it was a good, honest discussion about what that means. And as somebody who... Definitely midpoint. I've definitely noticed through my Oh, you're in the midpoint No, but definitely in your midpoint in life you do have a stumbling block you're sort of you feel like you're in treacle a little bit you're trying to get out of it and you come down, you come up and when you're up, how long can you stay up for I get that when you're younger, there is an element but you come up really quickly and something happens and the world feels bigger and also So I think when I was growing up, the world didn't feel as bad as it is now.

14:00For you guys, it's... And obviously because of social media, there's more things, you've seen more, and there's more horrible things happening in the world. Or it feels like there's more. It feels there's more. It probably was happening before, but it just didn't realize it was happening. So that was quite a good thing. So there's a lot more in your head than it was when I was younger. And then also we've grown into it, but they've arrived in it. So it's a different, totally different environment. I think that's hard. You agree, Liz? Yeah, I think it's intense, isn't it? bye now it's yeah it's intense isn't it I think social media is a it's a good tool but it's also you know you're always scrolling and there's something on there that makes you feel it's going to slash your dopamine levels and it's yeah it's not always a nice place to be.

14:43So when that happens do you feel that you just do you continue to find something to lift you up? No I don't well I mean that's a whole different conversation isn't it social media is designed by scientists to make you keep scrolling and become addicted to it so you know that's a whole whole other chat yeah but um yeah i think it's sometimes quite a dark i mean sometimes you've got lovely videos about things but also i don't remember anything i ever see on social media it's just why i'm trying to stay off of it because i just think like i can't even what did i see today that was actually useful i do really like substack because i like reading people's articles and essays and things and i think actually when you're on substack and scrolling you often feel like it's nourishing it's yeah it's you're reading people's opinions and whereas Whereas when you're on something like TikTok or Instagram, rarely is there anything that profound, you know?

15:32And so, yeah. Do you know what I love is when our kids get their phones and they just go through all the old pictures of the history of them. No, you love doing that. No, no, you do that. You do that. I mean, at least four times a week, we have photo, throwback photos on the family WhatsApp. Only because they pop up on my phone. But what I'm saying to you is that the weekend there, you were going through all these old pictures on my phone, just like old videos, horsies or holidays and all that stuff, which is, again, the memory of good things, right? Yeah, yeah. You feel good. And Ruben does the same.

16:02He does pick up your phone and mouth. It's not social media. It's not social media, but I'm saying that how you're looking at things that we've done together gives you that feeling. You've had to, in your career as a sportsman, obviously, use different tools to motivate you. What was your main go-to in terms of putting yourself kind of even in a more challenging place? I think because my school life was challenging, so I was wanting to always prove people wrong. Because when you're told you're thick and stupid, you sort of go, right, I've got to prove people wrong. But as I got into the environment of being in the team, I didn't want to let MD down.

16:36I didn't want to let myself down. I didn't want somebody to think I wasn't good enough. So it was always driving me to be better. And the fear of failure is always the... Isn't that your main motivation? Yeah. And actually, when you sort of... when I talk about that now and then I go to what I'm doing is work wise and you're in a different, it's a different fear of failure now when you're a sportsman, it's if you are not good enough, you're told you're not good enough, you get dropped. You can't, your career's not over. You just got to get back on horse and go train that week and get back in team and then you're off again.

17:08So it's different. So I think now when you get to like 50 years old, you're sort of going through a period going, I'm enjoying what I'm doing. You've got all these different things in your head. So there's an element of, the drive is harder sometimes. because maybe it's not as clear. When you're younger, I feel it's clearer because your goals are really sort of that, I want to be this, I want to... You forget a bit of them around you, so you're really quite self-centred. Whereas you get older, I think you're looking beyond all that and trying to keep everybody happy a little bit. And also family, marriage, you're at the start, it's just you, isn't it?

17:39You don't care about MDM, you just care about yourself. Quite selfish. And I think as you get older, you're not selfish. Maybe I should be. Maybe I don't know.

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18:18I haven't been in this journey before right so it's like everyone else every day is different I want to feel that and some days definitely in the last year I've had days I feel oh my god I feel great and others like oh my god this is like such a slog that's everyone's life is that just marriage I was gonna bring that up no no but I think there's an element of you can't be up all the time so I think you've got to when you've got that time to be down or when that time you need your own time, really get as much really have, do something that really helps you to help yourself up lift yourself up think about yourself a little bit but also if it's with your partner or your kids think how you can bring yourself into that environment rather than just maybe sometimes being so selfish you don't think about anything else apart from yourself It feels like to me at the moment, Lois, you're at that stage where you're coming towards the end of your second year at university.

19:14Did you not agree with that? Yeah, I'm not going to mark every comment out of ten. Very good, Kenny. She did a lot. No, she went to laughter. That was good. No, there's just an edit point there so we can snip it out. No, I'm joking. No, as you said at the very beginning of that, that's your journey. So I'm agreeing with you in the sense that I can see that. But you obviously, I could, you see me and I see you, so we've been together for a long time, so you can see the differences. Yeah, the variations in motivation. But you're a really kind of interesting period because you're at the end of, coming towards the end of your second year at university, there's another year to go.

19:50You're thinking about what you do after and you might do a master's or something. So, and it feels, sometimes you speak and I feel like you're almost like worrying about things that aren't happening yet. Do you know what I mean? They're just so far in the future that you, you know, But maybe that is the nature of the world that we live in. We put so much pressure on it. I think for young people, especially now, there is so much pressure to have everything by the time you're 25. And it feels like if you haven't... That comes from social media. You see all these Forbes under 30, under 30, all these social media influencers and all these people that claim to be making X amount of money.

20:27They're probably not. Let's be real. They're probably just lying. There are so many people that film podcasts by themselves pretending that they're talking to someone where they're saying, yeah, I made 20 grand this month. What are you doing? There's no one there, mate. So, you know, but I think, yeah. And even if you know that it's unrealistic, it still is constantly words in your mind. And it's constantly kind of like micro doses of like indoctrination from these people that are kind of, you know, constantly telling you where you should be and where you should be going and how you should be making money.

20:57People tell you, enjoy your 20s, enjoy this. But then by the time you're 25, you should have two kids. you should be married and you should have an a million pound house no but that's my point it's like you're constantly being told two different things so you have to find your own you just get stuck in a rut your own journey yeah and it's that feeling of constantly being like oh my god i'm not where i should be i don't have i don't know what where i'm supposed to be and it's but that's what people say in their 40s and that's what people say in their 50s so i guess the moral of that is that never leaves you find your own path as early as you can to feel as happy as you can with what you're doing and what's the brilliant um expression a comparison is the thief of joy yeah and it is so true yeah completely yeah that you are yeah and also i think there's such a big emphasis especially now i don't know what it was like when you guys were growing up in the 80s um but 20 when you were 20 in the 90s um but you know there's that kind of feeling that you have to have a certain like you have to be making a certain amount of money and have a certain lifestyle to be deemed as successful but actually you know it's it's not always about that it's about you know because the interesting thing was during covid which was a very instrumental period of your life you know as young teenagers i felt there was this shift and we were going to start valuing other things we did for a little bit for about six months scientists but yeah we valued people who made cures yeah we did we did but i also think that what happens is we we we were in a bubble then do you know what i mean it was so easy to to kind of you were forced to be like that and then that's what i'm saying i don't think it was i felt like there was this but there was a genuine value the value of um families being together and sitting down but but that very quickly disappeared but also we say that for us there were some people that during lockdown had a rubbish time that lived by themselves or that didn't have a family and so actually it kind of depends where you were so i'm not talking about the experience of us per se i'm talking about But the wider view in society, we started to realise, because people who could go back to work, first of all, we were told essential workers, key workers, and they were people who were doing things like frontline healthcare and things that were deemed to be really valuable to society.

23:03And it made people kind of look at themselves and think, am I of any use to society? If this all went really badly wrong, what tools do I have that I can give society? I always talk about the time that you and I decided to work for Crisis at Christmas when we didn't have any kids, and we had to put our skills down. We didn't have any. I can run fast. And if somebody runs at me, I could probably tackle. We ended up just literally just working in the kitchen. But not even doing any cooking in the kitchen. I can do chatting. And, you know, things like, can you cut hair? Can you? I could, but I'm not trained.

23:39I was known as a driver. You ended up driving. And I'm taking somebody to hospital. You had, they suspected, TB. TB, yeah. Yeah, gosh. Had to drive with the window open, didn't you? He was wrong, right? He was fine. but that kind of always comes back to mind that you know people I thought we were maybe going to start valuing a bit more people in society I think we did a bit quickly the world moves so fast though now you know we are in a we are definitely in a time where like and I learned this at university about how the world changes and like over the last 20 years we we are just constantly moving so much quicker than we ever had and so experiences and and what we're feeling just phases out so much quicker than it used to so sometimes i think maybe we don't get enough time to sit with it and we're just kind of forced onto the next thing which again creates that kind of anxiety anxiety for you know oh my god life is moving so fast it's not really when you say you've talked about this obviously you do geography for anybody who doesn't know and you um god i'm not qualified to I have to comment on it.

24:41You keep telling me it's going really well. It's going fine, yeah. What if your lecturers... I hope they're not watching this. It is. If you, when you talk about things are moving fast, is that just because of the rate of technological change? Yeah, and, you know, globalisation is such a, you know, not to get too techie, but it's, you know, it's big, and it's kind of like this thing that countries crave now and this, like, connection and this movement and this, you know, constantly things going places. And it's almost like we weren't really actually supposed to ever have the amount of connectedness that we have.

25:16And then it creates, you know, and it goes into the media. And that's globalization is sort of like from what I've learned and from what I've seen is is a root cause to division and to things that because we're moving at this sort of like inhuman rate that we were never supposed to be. Again, don't quote me on any of this. This is just what I'm. So in terms of the division, because people entrench themselves a little bit. Yeah, but people are feeling like, oh, all of this, and it doesn't have to be people. It might just be products or it might just be things. All of this is coming here and it feels like it's not, and then people get insecure because so much, there's so much change and they feel like they're being threatened by this change when in reality they're not, of course.

25:57But, and then that insecurity, it can be nurtured or it can be taken advantage of. And so when it's taken advantage of, they're told to be, feel insecure and feel like this is a threat when it might not necessarily be a threat. And obviously, again, there's lots of examples of that. It's quite a heavy podcast. I have to have a nap after this. It's like the mood. So motivation, Lois, do you feel like what motivates you? Well, I've spoken to a lot of people about motivation. I think shifts at university because when I was at school I was so motivated to be you know one of the best in class and to get the best grades and my team I felt like I had teachers that really cared about me and and I wanted to do well for my teachers and so I felt like if I if I got this grade and they were happy with me then that made I was kind of felt valid but then you go to university and you do have lecturers that all your lecturers care but there's 250 people in a lecture hall or more and really they don't know your name they don't really they don't know whose paper they're even marking now because it's all anonymous all of that validation that you used to get from your teachers is shifted onto you and then it kind of is like well is this really making me feel good or is it just the fact that I like geography at school because my teachers were great and I was good at geography um you know but it's true but you've also discovered a passion for writing yeah so and I thought well that's another thing with with university that's I probably you know if I I hadn't have done a degree that I do enjoy geography, but I don't feel like I, I don't see myself necessarily having a future as a geographer or a, a lot of people don't, they go into the city.

27:39No, and it's very transferable, but yeah, I don't see myself going into the city necessarily. She's done well at going for the day. No, but I mean, I'm not obviously ruling it out, but yeah, I think just in case you want to employ me, I will come into the city. Once or twice a year. Can I work online, please? in all seriousness actually I think that is an issue that young people expect to work on their own yeah online and actually I know a lot of businesses now want everybody back in yeah because you need to learn like watching and copying people you also need to hear your stuff and conversations and yeah and also the one that I would say is just going out for a coffee or yeah for lunch human connection is so important yeah and that's one thing in our business we've noticed a difference and we've been sort of been in that sort of five, six years of working remotely, meeting that once a week but we've definitely got to come back together more focused and there's more camaraderie.

28:35I generally think that also helps your self-esteem I noticed the other week when I was in the office and we're all together, I came out buzzing where you can't do that online. You can do it every so often but you need that connection I think that's definitely something that I got a lot of energy from. Yeah, I think at university as well with covid and sort of the after effects of everything coming online you there's there's definitely been a negative effect on students and on people in general because now instead of kind of when you're organizing a meeting with someone or or something with your tutor or with a lecturer or a fellow student it's like the first kind of thing is should we just have teams meeting and actually like you know it's it's much nicer to just go out it takes more effort that's the thing like going out for a coffee has now become something you have to put effort into when it wasn't before COVID.

29:22It was just something you would do. You'd go for a coffee, you'd go for a meeting. And now it's the easiest thing to do is stay in your room or stay in your kitchen and log on to your computer. And that's effortless completely. You can wear your pyjamas. But it's kind of scary now that we have to find motivation to go out of the door now. That's definitely the first port of Kona teams. It's not a bad thing. It can be amazing for people that have to care for someone or someone that isn't well. But it also definitely does kind of erode the human connection that we used to find quite easily. And confidence, yeah, definitely.

30:02Little things become huge tasks to people. Yeah, like the amount of people that find kind of, I get it sometimes, like just feeling anxious about going somewhere because I was a COVID, no, I wasn't a COVID baby, but I had a kind of nine months where I did school online completely from the kind of safety of my room. And then, you know, if we ever had a day where, I don't know, it was a snow day, you'd do it in your... It didn't seem to affect your twin brother at all. I wouldn't say I'm necessarily affected. I was very fortunate. No, I think your personality type was always predisposed to being somebody who was much more comfortable than Ruben is on your own.

30:39Ruben is different in the sense that Ruben cannot be alone. Maybe more so now. Not for a bad reason. Not for a bad reason. He likes being around people. Yeah, he is itching to just have somebody just... Social connection. I was like that growing up, definitely. But then that also might come from kind of, you know, something else, not necessarily a personality type. It might just be you like to just maybe not... Well, now I'm the opposite of when I was 20 years old. But he just really loves his mates as well. Yeah, but I mean, sometimes it is like... Can I love him next? But sometimes I do think it's like, Reuben, you haven't seen that person for five years.

31:15You went to primary school with them. Why are you meeting up with them today? Because I have to, you know. He has been in Manchester now for about nine months since last summer. He's been home twice. I feel like I was going to say it's the biggest shift in our family dynamic. You come home quite a lot. Not so much this year. Well, yeah, but you're still home 50 % of the year. And he has been home twice since he went out there, or three times maybe for one night occasionally. He came home for Christmas for two nights. so while we I get to see him quite a lot when I go to Manchester to do match of the day I still see him and you go to his matches but we're not having that I don't see him nearly you don't see him nearly as much have you noticed that kind of shift or has he been quite good do you know what he actually calls me more now he's definitely grown up a lot I didn't know can we clip this up for him nine months and so like yesterday he called me and he was just driving back from training we had a nice long chat so actually I sometimes but then I think with Ruben because I don't know I don't feel like I think our closeness drifted when he left home at 17 the first time because also he just you know it was so exciting for him and he was so young and I was kind of doing my own thing but now I think yeah we're back to being a lot more close not that we weren't you know but you feel you feel like you're much closer yeah yeah yeah so the motivation which was the theme of today's podcast have we done much?

32:39yeah we haven't really we haven't really we haven't really got to the nub of it have we we haven't got to the nub of what motivation is what motivates you yeah what oh i'm glad you asked um i did see wait for an hour no but i sometimes it's what you say it's fear of failure it's it's about and sometimes it's um just always is about delivering wanting to deliver the best i can and feel i hate the idea of not you know i know myself if i've left somewhere and i've not left my best on the table and i i really hate that feeling i don't ever want to do anything in a sloppy way whatever it is you know whether it's throwing a lunch or you know going in the gym and working out I kind of you know I feel like I want to do the best you've got prayed for what you do don't you yeah so you feel kind of if I'm going to do it I want to do it really well but that means at that point that means I'm already there doing it so I've obviously had to get the motivation to get there to do it so um I suppose there is a little bit of um of that kind of god watch the sociological um phenomena uh when uh i can't believe i forgot this is this is this is midpoint fog when you are living up to people's expectations it's a sociological term oh um positive no oh gosh what is it'll come to me in a minute okay so basically you you you do what everybody expects you to do yeah basically and so when people tell you this is probably someone shouting in their phone at the minute going telling you exactly what it It is, yeah.

34:06I did GCSE Geography. Sorry, GCSE Sociology. Well done. I did GCSE Sociology and it was a phrase that we often wrote essays about. Might have changed since then. It's a long time ago. But it is that thing of, okay, so say, for example, the eldest child, which I am, is told, oh, you're the clever one. You are organised and you live up to those expectations that people have. Like a determination. Yeah, yeah. Those labels that people put upon you. So I suppose there is an element to that sometimes where you go, do I actually want to do this? I'm being told that I should do this, but this is something that I actually really want to do.

34:42I get that because I think at school, Ruben was always the sporty one and I was the more, not that I was an exceptional academic, but I was definitely the more academic twin. And that worked because we were never really that competitive. You know, I would come home and have a nice grade card. Ruben would have, you know, I mean, fine. Average. Okay. Sometimes bad. And my report would be good and Ruben's wouldn't be so good. Yeah, interesting. And then Ruben would go and win all of his rugby games and whatever and I would go and do sport. But I didn't necessarily... I think at some point I put a lot of pressure on myself.

35:18Wasn't your drive though? Pardon? When you did sport, you wanted to do well but you weren't... My sport is very different to a lot of other sports. Yeah. And so, you know, but when I was playing school sport and playing lacrosse and netball, athletics was a bit different. I always wanted to be good at athletics because when I started doing high jump when I was younger, I'm not an athlete at all anymore. But when I was good at high jump, I did always feel like, because I used to go and win a lot of competitions if I didn't, when I used to really beat myself up about it and not feel great about it.

35:45But I never felt like there was that competitive element between us. So maybe in my kind of subconscious, I kind of always feel like I have to be the academic person because he's now a kind of... Sports person. Again, not that I am an academic at all, but you know what I mean? I think the other thing is about confidence is doing exercise. Not confidence, but motivation. If you're walking and you're outside and you're doing some exercise, that makes a huge impact on how you feel and how your mind feels. You feel more motivated. More motivated. And that's an element. Your body has to feel that. It's that thing, isn't it, of that perpetual motion of the more of something breeds more of something.

36:25And so I think when you get up and you do a positive thing, even if you don't want to do it, that might be going for a walk, that can help motivate you to do the next thing. And we were talking about the overwhelming nature of lists and Lois was saying to me the other day that she's writing. When I write lists, they're too long and just so... Endless. I think it's because I also, from a very early age, I get up at six o 'clock and I'm outside for four hours sorting animals out and doing things. And I'm already up and doing things and I get in, but that has become a part of my life and so it doesn't feel like a chore or a part of my day anymore.

36:57I guess it's like a less extreme version of motherhood. in that yeah yeah and so it like i've already done a lot for someone before kind of 10 o 'clock but i it doesn't feel like i've done anything at all and so then i sort of beat myself up about it but actually i have done something but it's almost just become part of my it has to be done like you make a good comparison with children because actually i think often mothers and fathers but you know society still you know largely the children doesn't undervalue what kind of doing a lot of the work, feel that they're not getting anything done. But what they've done is amazing things.

37:32They've spent time with their children and they've done lots of things with them. But yeah, I suppose your animals aren't going to survive if you don't do that. They need you. So you don't feel you've achieved anything. But then I've kind of come in and I've got like 20 other things that I've got on my list that are going to take me two days to do. And then I get to the end of the day and I'm like, I haven't done all of that. I failed. So I said to you, you need to write a shorter list. Yeah, I should just write. What's on your list? What sort of things on your list? What's the weirdest thing on your list?

37:59I don't think I have anything weird on my list at the minute. Sometimes I'm too motivated to do stuff. Like the night before, I make these excessive lists that are completely unattainable. And then I actually make my life harder and worse for myself because I get to the end of the day and I feel like I've failed, even though I have achieved something. Give us one thing on the list that would be... Do your coursework. That's realistic. Write an article for Substack. if you enjoy something it doesn't feel like a chore yeah that's the thing so when you have to do something like something in your life that you don't really enjoy and it drags you down that's hard that's the bit you've got to get yourself up because you can do something if you're a sportsman or the job you do you love you just go in there you don't think about it you're just thriving and maybe that's the thing as you get older find the job that's a bit more Yeah, but that's so hard.

38:52And that's hard. Because there's so many people in the world. And there are so many barriers to doing that. I think it's completely unrealistic to expect that you are going to find a job that every day is huge. And the idea that we sell that to people is totally wrong. I agree, but even when I was playing rugby, how much I loved that job. 50 % of it was hard. Well, look at Ruben. One day he's on, I know you were a professor over there, but Ruben's living there now. And he's one day on cloud nine and the next day, I'm rubbish. and this is, you know, so actually it's just up and down, isn't it? But, you know, he'll come out hopefully of being a pressure back to play and remembering.

39:26But just go back to what you said there, those things that all of us have to do, no matter how exciting the job looks, that you are the least favourite thing of your job. I always feel like well, that's my, the reward is the really great stuff that I want to do. Yeah, there's always got to be a take. It can't be 100%. No, and it can't all be highs. I wonder what the percentages of people that are. I feel like there's a lot of people that don't do jobs that they do. I think if you've got 50-50, I think it would be amazing if 50 % of the stuff you do you really love and 50 % you're not so keen on that's not a bad balance there might be some people that do jobs that know they get one day of the year that's just unbelievable but they have to kind of work for that and I think a lot of people just can't find the joy in the job that they do and that's a tough place to be and it's also very hard to say to somebody go and find a job that you enjoy exactly and it reminds me of when I was at Sky and I used to go and knock on the door of the head of sport every night when I was doing sports news and say, can I do some live sport?

40:24Can I do live sport? Because I was just basically doing autocue reading. And one day he just looked up and he went, Gabby, even this job, there goes, Gabby, even tightrope walkers have days where they're not so excited about work. Even tightrope walkers. I would be very, very scared every day. I think his point was, it's not all high. It's like octane, adrenaline. So, well, I'm not sure we've got any takeaways on how to motivate yourself there. Really? Oh, okay, go on. What are you talking about? We have to have a takeaway. Have a shorter list. Have a shorter list. Okay, have a shorter list. Have a realistic list.

40:55And if you're not motivated, go for a walk. Go do some exercise. I do think sometimes, though, writing a list is a really good way to... But being realistic about your list. I do... I mean, you can tell. I love a list. You don't get that from me, by the way. Lois' list. I like a list and I like a paper diary. I like writing things down. And then I like ticking things off. But... I'm just thinking of some takeaways from today this analogue 20 year old who writes a diary, doesn't like the city oh no I sound like an old person yeah mum and dad called me a hermit over Christmas new one for me I do have a life by the way I'm all joking I know I just don't want everyone to think I'm really sad but I guess it's a reality show, get Lois alive yeah live Lois but yeah I do think having lists are great but I think you know writing your goals down is not a bad thing just make it attainable or have you know a short term goal and a long term goal but this is all stuff that you could listen even if you get all this I think sometimes you've got to re sort of reassess the situation you're in and just go I used to I remember when I was playing rugby I had goals in my head that I wanted to do this I wanted to win that I wanted to win this I wanted to do well you know all these little goals and when I finished playing rugby the goals all disappeared because I thought I didn't need them then somebody said to me what's your goals now Ken I was like God you're right that's a good point and actually that made a big difference and recently I've been thinking about my goals which I maybe had two or three years ago and I drifted off the goals so I'm thinking in my head getting back to those goals and again exercise is important to that gives you the motivation I also think as well you know it's blubbing out now I know it is yeah if you're any good at your job you'd have asked it earlier when you're in a stump like just like thinking about a slump or a stump just a tree stump um sitting on a slump when you're in a slump sitting on a tree stump um she's a poor um and just looking at who's around you and and who who's there to support me and and not necessarily thinking what can i do to make myself more motivated or what goals can i set myself because sometimes that is just so overwhelming just think about like what is the position that i'm in who's around me to support me you know and just take it day by day get rid of the bad ones yeah get well yeah you know think about what's what's working and what's not working because sometimes it is a matter of of sacrifice but also getting rid of the things in your life that are you know draining yeah and just being honest but being honest with yourself you love that phrase the drains be a radiator not a drain yeah be a radiator not a drain if you feel like you are in a slump on a stump then go and go and you know find someone to help you or you know go and look at who's around you and what and it doesn't have to be who oh my mum and dad No, but I also think my go-to is nature and animals.

43:43Yeah, definitely. And, you know, because they are so... Pimban jet. They're horses, by the way. I mean, not everybody can go and grab a horse. No, but generally, just animals in general, I think, are so powerful because they will never talk back, which is quite a nice thing. And they don't judge you because they don't know what you're saying. And they're also just beautiful to kind of watch in their own environment. They have their own trials and tribulations. And, you know... They don't. they do though squirrels have got to find acorns you know they're not worried about Putin no but that's the thing that's what's beautiful about them though is they have they kind of live in their own blissful ignorance and I'm not saying be ignorant but it's just taking your mind away from it isn't it yeah well do you know what I don't know if we've got anywhere on that but I don't care because I feel like we're in a lovely chat hopefully everyone else didn't turn off five minutes in I know Nana Christine will still be listening yeah hi Nana that's my mum who says she likes in the background she goes I had it on in the background no she doesn't she prefers the family episodes to all other episodes that means she will listen to those ones guys thanks very much for coming on the midpoint we'll try and get Ruben along next time we might have to lose you though Kenny happy days because you're such a drain you're such a drain it's hot in here it's because you're sat next to two radiators

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