Jess Butcher

0:28Hello and welcome to The Midpoint. later looking at videos of cats. So I think you're going to enjoy hearing from my guest today, Jess Butcher, MBE. And Jess was the co-founder back in the day of Blippa. And in 2012, she was listed as Fortune's 10 most powerful women entrepreneurs. She was a woman in demand in the world of tech. So why does she now describe herself on her Instagram bio as an award-winning tech entrepreneur in a past life? In many ways, you'll find out today she is the ultimate poacher turned gatekeeper. Her new focus and passion in life is getting us off our phones through scroll aware and doing something more soulful.

1:06She's on a mission to push society and indeed the world to re-evaluate the way we use our phones. Not to ban them, not to put them down completely, just think a bit differently. Some of the statistics are quite frightening. On average, people scroll for three hours a day. And currently, the average 18-year-old is on course to spend 93 % of their spare time in their life scrolling. No doubt we have a problem. But is it possible to get the genie back in the bottle? And as someone who knows all about the algorithms that get us hooked, how does she think we can change human behaviour? Let's meet Jess.

1:45Jess, welcome to The Midpoint. In your introduction, I've said that you're now kind of poacher turned gamekeeper. in some ways. You were one of the pioneers in terms of tech women in Forbes hot lists and an MBE for your services to the industry. When did the game changing kind of eureka moment come to you that all was not well? I wish I could say there was one eureka moment. It's that sense of sort of creeping unease about what you're working on that happened. And I guess parenting is that great trigger for so much in life isn't it you know I had three and four years at the very height of my journey in building very very ambitious technology so I was on planes the whole time and I you know wasn't around as much as I would have liked to have been and I guess I was having that revelation at the same time as thinking about the world that they were going to grow up within and my job at that time was to put a phone between us and the physical world that we were moving about in and the more I looked at the behaviours that we were driving the more I thought I don't want this for my children and I was tuning in to so many of the other sort of social political issues that were happening in the world and just thinking enough you know I don't want to add to this problem anymore I want to be part of a solution or a conversation that says when is enough enough when is too much you know and and what can we do about that so I guess that's what's led me to become Gamekeeper in some ways yeah I've turned social entrepreneur for trying to tackle this issue of tech addiction overwhelm and and distraction I suppose there's a couple of things there to get into one there's there's a there's a moment of realizing this is going the wrong direction and it's changing human behaviors negatively and you could do that from within the industry and the other one is that you jump out of the industry and kind of decide to work almost against it I guess because what you're and we'll get on to scroll aware what you're hoping to achieve and you've said this in your articles on Substack in terms of looking at a future is a is a reversal of behavior isn't it that you were part of that industry that was kind of guiding us towards this let's go back to the beginning of your tech journey what did you see coming down the track you know do you look back and feel almost that you had a naivety and an innocence that you didn't see this train kind of coming towards you know the crash that it is for you now no I think one thing that I would always say is I am not anti-tech I never have been I'm pro-tech I think tech is incredible and it has enabled so many incredible aspects of modern life and you know the doors that it's opened the experiences it presents the connections.

4:37I love technology and that has run through every job move that I've made throughout my career. I've seen a way of harnessing tech to make life easier in some way or more delightful or more experiential. And I've been beguiled by whatever that vision is. And I've jumped on board to say, right, let me take that to market with you or let me do it for myself if it was one of my own businesses. And I remain a huge fan of the enabling applications of technology. And I think if I was going to be fair, I think a lot of the negative byproducts that we're seeing now weren't intended. You know, I think predominantly most tech is still brilliant tech, is still enabling technology.

5:19The challenge is in the business models. And I guess that's where I really started to drill down and most specifically into the attention economy. You know, that whole adage of, you know, if you're not paying for it, then you are the product. and that was great in terms of access to technology and opening the world for people that perhaps wouldn't have been able to afford it but it very quickly morphed into something a lot more dangerous because attention you know in order to to monetize attention you need more and more and more of it and of course what happened is you know the very biggest players within that industry they got us all in terms of numbers so where do they grow then well they have to get more of our time and that's when i think and i'd like to think that they didn't preempt this they didn't intend for this but inevitably that has meant building algorithms and platforms that have to then minus and addict us ultimately and to addict us unfortunately you need to play to our worst weaknesses as humans.

6:24Can you explain for me and for a lot of people who aren't as tech savvy as you are how algorithms work? I actually don't know. I studied history so I couldn't write an algorithm I couldn't read an algorithm. I guess what I've tuned into is the behavioural psychology of what they're capable of doing. So we all know algorithm is something that our information is is fed into this machine and somehow it works out what you like and just somehow sends you more of it. Yeah, it's data, data, data. But the data is so much smarter than any of us might anticipate. You'll hear a lot of people saying with my phone listening because I coughed last night and now I'm being marketed.

7:07Apparently not. I think how much we know about what these algorithms do is deliberately opaque, right? Because I think it would scare us. You know, I was only reading yesterday about the data. It says that once you've given meta access to your photos in order to upload them, they can then see all your photos and everything within your phone is accessible to them. And not a lot of people know that. And it's obviously not in companies like that interest for everyone to worry and scare. And I think broadly speaking, the reasons for that are not necessarily malicious, you know, but it is data and data is money and soil.

7:42So just on that, people will be listening and be aghast. You'd turn off that on your phone, that application then? Yeah. I mean, if it's only your personal phone, then it's your personal data. But the things that I've been reading as if it's a business phone or if you work in a school environment and you happen to have photographs, you're using your personal phone for social media uploads on behalf of the school or the drama or the sports club that you might be in charge of. then that's a problem because Meta has access to the data of children that are not necessarily your children, you know, whose digital footprint is not within your responsibility or control.

8:21When you decided that you wanted to make a leap outside of the business, you know, the world that you were in, was your own usage worrying you, your own scrolling worrying you? It continues to. You know, I am as guilty as the next person. You know, I definitely waste hours. I mean, I love some of the influencers I follow. And this is one thing in a scroll aware that I've set up. It's not anti-scroll. You know, it's about balance. It's about breaks and boundaries and controls because some scroll is fine. You know, some of the middle aged mothers I follow, they are utterly hilarious. I feel truly seen by, you know, some of the incredibly brilliant content that they put out.

9:02But yes, you know, I was scrolling last night in bed, you know, and 20 minutes would turn into an hour, an hour and a half. My husband and I are guilty of sitting on the sofa, you know, and scrolling next to each other and not having a conversation. And when I started to notice how much I was doing around the kids, that's when I really sort of thought enough, you know. And I'm a smart woman, right, you know, who understands this. He's very well read about the trends and the dangers of what it's doing to people. And if I can't control my addictions, then there's definitely a problem here. And what worries me is that, you know, that I'm perhaps in the top 0.001 % of people educated about this issue and I can't do it.

9:46Then what is happening to the rest of society and more importantly, children and teens whose brains are still developing because they can't discern fact from fiction. They cannot understand that they're only seeing one side of an argument and what's true and what isn't. and that dopamine and addiction to sort of fast paced click click click content is a slot machine and it's I'd go so far as to say I think it's lobotomizing a generation it's that serious a problem because we're taking their ability to concentrate and focus away from them. Yeah there's two things there isn't there there's the content that's coming at them and as you say they haven't got the other side quite often whether it's politics or societal issues but there's also the dopamine there's this idea that you just don't have a concentration span because content quite often, as you've alluded to, can be entertaining, informative.

10:35It can be educational, inspirational, but it's 30, 40 seconds long. You know, you very rarely watch something. I watched the whole Waitrose advert, by the way, on Instagram, which is about three minutes 40, the Christmas advert. But often it's not, and you're told all the time, clips should be 30 to 40 seconds. People don't have the concentration span. This is, you know, within a generation, we've gone from people who would rush home after school to watch Neighbours, half an hour of people hanging around an Australian cafe doing very little. I don't know if you watched Neighbours when you were a kid.

11:04Absolutely. To the point where we can't concentrate for more than 30 seconds. I mean, are the neural pathways degenerated that quickly? And it's a muscle. Our brain is a muscle. And even I struggle now to read long-form books. I'm almost having to retrain myself to do that because it's only recently that I myself have decided to charge my phone downstairs and said to my husband, right, we're reading. And I'm now like a hawk on the kids. I'm like books, books, books. That's all that matters. Get your brain reading for at least 20 to 30 minutes a day just to exercise that muscle. Because the world will be ruled, I believe, by those children who have learned to harness their own focus and attention against everybody else who will be, and I heard this phrase recently, I loved it, NPCs.

11:53You know, that is a gaming phrase. non-playing characters. Which is terrifying. You know, the avatars in the background because they can't go deep because their brains simply haven't been trained to do it. And AI is exacerbating this within education. If you're always fed the shorter form of anything, the digested, the blinkist, we saw all these trends happening because we live in this hyper-productivity age where we've got to inject content. to get as much as we possibly can and we might fall behind or miss something you know the age of FOMO and yet that is really hurting our brains. And I think anybody listening right now is nodding along because they they know exactly what you're talking about they're either experiencing it themselves they're frustrated watching their kids their teenagers spend too long on their phones and scrolling mindlessly you'd have to search really far and wide to find somebody who has no idea what you're talking about and yet here we are in a completely legal this is a you know it's not like we're talking about insidious drug use that we're worried about or, you know, ketamine on the streets.

12:58This is something that is readily available for anybody who wants it. And neuroscientists will talk about the neural pathways and how they're being kind of corrupted by this. Has a generation gone already, do you think? Have we got to kind of look at, you know, the next generation coming through to try and save? Yeah, I think that's a lot of the whole smartphone-free childhood stuff and a lot of the narrative is around kids at the moment pre-phones. And that's a very, very important conversation. And I do think that there has to be work done around regulation and age limits and time limits. And Australia's gone for 16.

13:34Australia's gone. Denmark's just put something in place as well. And the early indicators are very strong. Social media. Social media. Because not the phone. You know, that's one thing that I do depart with. It's not the phone that's the problem. It's the content and what's happening on the device that's the problem. but what I do think that whole discussion ignores and writes off is a generation just above them right you know your your children's generation you know I know you've spoken to both of them yeah I have done and um I gather that Ruben needs work this is what I've been told um that you know Lois has got all this get up and go and I think there's an overstatement that we've lost a generation but there are many people within that generation that are definitely suffering from the effects of isolation and loneliness and constant distraction very much um negativity as well but they've got the weight of the world on their shoulders you know that's why there's so much activists within a whole generation because they've just been fed doom for so long and and have and are anxious now about the in-person connections but no i don't believe they're lost and in actual fact i believe that it's that generation that holds the power right now because the tide is starting to turn and you see a lot of them now embracing what I loosely call digital defiance because they're saying, hang on, no, I'm not going to be exploited.

14:58I'm not going to be mined for my attention. And you're starting to see all of this, the rise of unplugging, as some people refer to it, which is them willingly deciding to embrace dumb phones or have phone-free events and to say, you know, we want our time back. And in fact, they are the loudest voices when it comes to some of the bands for the generation below them. Oh, yeah. I mean, Ruben was the one out of Ruben and Elias are 20. And when they I said they could have phones when they were 13, which they were the very last people in their classes. I was brave back then. Oh, it was because I think the other mothers really looked at me like I was very mean.

15:36And I just did not want their attention going somewhere other than trying to get them to enjoy books. but also life. Be outside, play, have fun, use your imagination, be bored. And instinctively felt that that was the best way. And so I held out to about a month before their 13th birthday because Ruben was looking forward to handing the phone in at school and he was about to leave that school. So I said, I'll give you a burner phone. Anyway, point being, about two years after that, so 15, we're chatting about phones and he said, and he was the one pushing for it earlier, wanted it the same age as the other boys in the class.

16:09Someone as young as 10 were getting these 10, 11, 12. and he said, yeah, I hated it. He said, but my kids won't have phones until they're 15. Wow. So there was a complete self-awareness that this thing that he'd so wanted and desired, actually he knew it didn't make him feel great and it was interesting the times, the one thing we could do with the phone was remove it for below standard behaviour, you know, having your phone for a week and literally take it away and you'd see a change in personality almost immediately And I think that's when he had that realisation that he knew he felt different.

16:45And obviously because he's a very sociable person and he has a job and he's a rugby player and he's very active, I suppose, I don't know what he said to you, but I think the amount of time he scrolls, he would say, well, I've got all this other stuff going on in my life and I don't spend all day on it because I'm working and I'm not. But I feel it's still instinctively a waste of time. Yeah. I mean, everyone needs downtime, which is why I don't think as adults, you know, who can make these decisions for ourselves, we need to be too down in ourselves about it. But Ruben's lucky because he has a natural antidote built into his life.

17:19He's a sportsman. And I think the challenges for those children for whom, you know, and teens for whom they might not be naturally extrovert, you know, they might not be incredibly sociable. They, they're not into sport, you know, where are their hobbies? Or where are their third spaces? Where are the alternatives for them? that time because what has happened in conjunction with the rise of um of the attention economy is the decline of the community you know there are no yet they think there's a community there and it's not community and i think that's the misnomer because we have we're more and more disconnected when we are online that was the original dream of these platforms well go back to facebook yeah and that was exactly that was the the plan wasn't it that we're all going to be able to find our people but actually not stay there we're supposed to go out meet our people and do things with our people i think that's what people haven't realized because it's crept up on us without us realizing it's not social media anymore it's algorithmic media you know when you get sucked into these platforms think about how much of that content you're looking at is actually friends and family it's really not anymore right you just get sucked into the thumb swipe because this stuff is brilliant and it knows you and you know oh and I love that product and isn't she clever and I've never heard that music but it's my kind of music clever clever clever stuff but it's not social anymore you know it is it's it's it's algorithmic it's reels effectively of content it's making people some people a lot of money I don't just mean the people online but obviously the tech giants are making a lot of money so they have no incentive to police this no no and and And that's the challenge.

18:57But I think there are responsible people working in a lot of those organizations are looking at what they can do. But ultimately, you have to follow the money. And I think that's where I've really tuned into that risk, because attention has to morph into addiction in order to sustain itself. And hopefully different products and tools can come out that they do that they'll be able to monetize in different ways, because, you know, the entrepreneur in me is not stupid. I know a business that isn't growing is dying. You know, that old adage definitely rings true. But I'd love to see other technology companies coming to the fore with great products that, you know, that sate that desire for human connection.

19:40You know, we're almost seeing a renaissance in social again media. I don't know what they'll call it, but apps that actually connect you to people within your location where the outcome is an in-person meetup with people that you didn't know before. I know Lois knows a thing or two about this. And there's many of those actually coming to market. And those, again, we're back to tech as an enabler. And that's really good. You know, as a tech entrepreneur, I do think tech entrepreneurs are part of the solution. We're also seeing fabulous innovation in safer technology tools for children. so devices that take them on a journey rather than handing them a supercomputer at the age of 9, 10 or 11 you know my son's device he's just started secondary so we've been part of this sort of fraught debate for the last couple of years he has a smartphone Jess you've given your 12 year old a smartphone yes and no his phone doesn't do anything except calls and texts but then I thought well Google Maps absolutely that enables his independence.

20:45Payments. I want him to understand budgeting. He works for money, he gets it on a go, Henry, and then, you know, he can look at how he's spending it. You know, there's a bus pass on there now. I've actually given him Wikipedia because he's a bit of a nerd. He likes, you know, statistics and he can't link off it. So there's no web browser and there's no social media. But it means that we can have a conversation as he matures about what is suitable. But there's nothing he can just pick up and fall into. And what do you think is 16, Australia and Denmark? Is that the kind of age, do you think, in terms of maturity that we should, if we were going to legislate in this country?

21:24Yeah, I mean, I've stayed away from the legislative question, even though I support it. 16 feels about right to me as an age. I think there are potentially some social tools that they could have exposure to for between their friends prior to that, but open access to other people's content and the algorithmic reels, it's not necessary until they know what they're looking at and they can really understand it. And it is possible to legislate, isn't it? Because the recent legislation that has had a massive impact on Pornhub has said in terms of the numbers kind of downloading and accessing that because of now having to put a passport in, and that's affected a lot of younger subscribers to porn, obviously.

22:04So that works, right? If you've got to have that kind of information going into apps So kids aren't likely to be able to do that by kind of pretending they're 16, which so many things can do that. An eight-year-old can pretend they're 16 on Snapchat or whatever. Well, you can just go and to visit anything on the web, even with the predictions and the whack-a-mole of various different tools, parental control tools. A child only needs to go to a VPN URL and they can access any website online. And I think there was a lot of criticism of Australia that it just wasn't working. well recently I think it was only a week or two the early indicator that is working just like the age gating on porn sites dropped the traffic by 50 % exactly the same thing has happened now that's a very very valuable reclamation of time in that 50 % let's talk about time because am I right 93 % of spare time will be spent scrolling if we carry on as we are for today's 18 year olds in their life a cumulative 25 years i mean these are full-time jobs that people are spending in scroll yeah i mean and it's the time opportunity cost so much of this narrative is around harms right exploitation and blackmail and misinformation and disinformation these are all very big problems don't get me wrong but there's not nearly enough attention being paid to the time opportunity cost you know and what four to five hours a day is the average now for an adult you know and very similar for children now what is that time coming at the expense of and that whole family dynamic family time reading time sleep you know these are critical critical things exercise obviously time in community um but it doesn't make for a sexy headline because they're all maybes of things that you could be spending that time on but they're all going to be more valuable for any of us as adults let alone children to be doing better things with that time if you think of everything we miss out and we should have FOMO for our real lives not for what we're missing out on on online So scroll aware's aim, as you said, is not to get rid of the phone.

24:25It's not to even get rid of scrolling. It's to have conscious scrolling. Yes, it's about intentionality and it's about a better balance and better ratio. So our slogan is less scroll, more soul. The less scroll bit of that is obvious. But no, we don't say no scroll. We say less scroll. The more soul is deliberately opaque because more soul means to each person something very, very different. You know, what's your more soul? What would you think of if you think of time that you think would be good for your soul? Being with family, doing hobbies that are creative or, you know, the kind of thing that would take you out of your head for an hour or so that isn't structured.

25:10For me, it's obviously kids, nature, dog walking and charity shops. I'm obsessed with charity shops. That's my me time, just to go mooching around the hitching charity shops. For my husband, it's paddle because he's a middle-aged man and everyone has to do paddle. But for some people, it might be something super nerdy. They might be into bird watching or train watching or something. Everybody knows what their more sold time is or, more interestingly, what they'd like it to be. You know, what are the things that you always wish you knew about that you've never invested the time in? I love the idea of gardening.

25:45I haven't ever had a spare moment to actually plant a seed and feel the satisfaction of watching that grow. Astronomy fascinates me. And yet I haven't ever read a book on it. You know, little things. And I think more soul is simply about honing in on the alternatives and what more we could be doing in full control of our own time and our own decisions. And of course, more soul also lends itself to an alliance that I'm hoping to bring together of businesses who are very, very powerful voices in this discussion, but who haven't raised them yet. because there are so many businesses in the business of more soul because they sell sporting goods or they sell music and instruments or they sell food and drink or hospitality venues or they put on concerts and arts.

26:40These are all things that bring people together. Absolutely. They're connecting more soul industries, adventure, outdoors. People like your sponsor, Mountain Warehouse, they're in the business of more soul. And yet they're advertising, they're spending 70 % of their advertising on social media or on these platforms. So they're kind of competing, their advertising is competing for the customer's time with their own product, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So I'm looking to aggregate together a lot of people, well, both personalities and businesses that are in what I call the more soul world.

27:22So sports and adventure to say, you know, we need more balance here because we're missing out. So anybody listening to this who's feeling, yes, yes, Jess, I'm with you. I'll be in your army. Do you want people signing up so that you could kind of prove the concept as well? Is that helpful in terms of business? Yes. I mean, ultimately, this is what I'm looking to achieve with Scroll Aware is a cultural shift, you know, something of an analog renaissance, if you will, where and it's really just old fashioned philosophy. You know, what makes for a rich life? People, place, presence. You know, those are the things that we treasure, you know, and are important to us.

28:02So this whole movement, the Less Quoil More Soul, is about reminding people of that and seeking to empower them to make better decisions as to how they're spending their time. One of the things you mentioned in one of the articles you have on Substack in this futuristic world where there's a huge shift in behaviours is the look back at selfies and things like that and and realising how ridiculous it all is. Yeah. That we're constantly taking pictures, not just of ourselves, but of everything. Exactly. We've got into the trap of wanting to be seen to be somewhere rather than to actually enjoy being somewhere.

28:44I mean, how often have you been at a concert or an event where all you can see is people taking pictures of that event? The most annoying thing, you end up watching it through the person in front's phone because they've put it right in your eye line between you and the stage. But then I would argue the first time I went to Venice, it was pre-children, so it must be over 20 years ago with Kenny, the thing that annoyed me the most about it was watching tourists and actually a lot of them, this big group that were together, were all from the kind of Far East somewhere, just looking at Venice through their big Canon lenses.

29:13So that kind of behaviour isn't necessarily new. It's just the readiness, isn't it? The ease of which our phones are kind of like brought out and a picture can be taken. And who could be bothered to carry a great big Nokia lens around with them or any other brand of camera that wants to be involved in the midpoint? So I think that's not necessarily a completely new human behaviour, but it's just too easy, isn't it? It is too easy. And I hope that that tide is turning because people actually, back to that point about this being less social as social media, people are actually posting less now because their own posts obviously just get lost amidst all of the algorithmic content that's being delivered.

29:54so I think that that trend actually might already be on on the decline um you know there's less people taking pictures of food in restaurants I definitely noticed that I think going about my day-to-day but there's definitely more people telling us you know they're healthy hacks which are all usually 99 % of them are absolute nonsense I mean that there is an absolute proliferation of that kind of content maybe that's my algorithm maybe because I'm in kind of well-being but I see a lot more of those half of them don't make any sense and you can't believe that's the other thing how how are people getting away with some of the things that they're actually saying and not not being pleased in terms of how good it is for us yeah I mean this is I mean one of the things in my utopian vision that I've created is yes the selfie becomes deemed crass and narcissistic it's obviously my personal belief is it's narcissistic um but equally you know we we start to question the the rights of content actually you know because we're all being captured on other people's cameras left right and center right there's nothing more depressing to my mind than an incident happening and everybody pulling out their phone to record it rather than actually help the situation in some way or another and feel like they're doing a public good it's voyeurism it's it's rubbernecking and you actually don't have that person's permission to film them in that moment and i think that people are going to start waking up to that and saying you know all of these videos where there's a confrontation between dog walkers and somebody gets filmed at their very worst, you know, in a bad mood.

31:28Careers ruined, you know, overnight, reputations. And they were just out for a dog walk, you know, and people can be unpleasant. Do they deserve to lose everything because of that? And it's this assumption. Oh, but we live in a very binary society and you're either right or you're wrong. And it's content for the person taking it. I think one has fueled the other, hasn't it? Yes. You know, this idea that you're on one side or you're on the other side, I think is kind of feeding into both of them are kind of working together, aren't they? That was actually the issue that tuned me into all of this.

32:01You know, the polarization and the stupidity of the incredibly binary nature of these arguments that make out that the world is a battle between good and evil. Because it's just not. You know, that line runs through each and every one of us. On social media. It's boring to say it, but how can there be? in a 90-second snippet. You know, you can imbibe what you're told by your favourite person. But what's worse is that then you can march for that without actually understanding the depth of the incredibly complicated issue that sits underneath it. And arguably the answer to that is just less, less, less content.

32:38You know, content that makes you feel angry, that makes you feel indignant or irritated and cross with the world isn't healthy content. Content, okay. You know, because I can hear people saying, well, I'm an actress and I've been told by my agent I've got to have a presence in social media or I work in, you know, I'm an influencer. So I sell things using social media. You know, there's whole swathes of people who are earning decent livings using the content we're talking about. So, you know, there's gonna be reluctance from those people to hop off and pivot and find a new career that they've got to sell stuff.

33:15Yeah, of course. And we live in that age where an attraction amongst that audience, and what I'm saying, is challenging, understandably. However, there are a large number of people who are very successful online who don't rely on it as a stream of income and whose personal brands, because we live in the age of personal brand, has been built on a passion for a more soul sector, whether that's cooking or fitness or sport or skateboarding or gardening or outdoors and adventure. That's their passion that they're well known for. And so, yes, they put content about their passions on these platforms.

33:58And they are as despairing as me, actually, that people will watch that content and feel momentarily inspired by it and then just fall down the rabbit hole for another hour and a half. They don't do anything with it. They don't go and practice the keepy-uppies or cook the recipe or, you know, go out and look at the birds that you've just told you or stargaze or whatever it might be. And so I think we've reached a point where a lot of the bigger creators and then really weren't creators first. They've become inadvertent creators because of the huge rise of these platforms. They are saying, huh, there's something not quite right about this.

34:37and embracing, you know, the conversation. And with many of them I'm talking about, for example, using end screens. You know, so at the end of their reels, you know, there's a pause and a moment to say, well, now get offline and do. You know, don't carry on scrolling or take a break. You know, we have to put little reminders and nudges in to inject them into the feed in some way. and they're very open and receptive to doing that because they recognise their own weaknesses, they're worried about their kids and they know that their followers are not doing or living the lifestyles that they're trying to inspire them to do and live.

35:20So it's little steps, basically. And I'm a hypocrite because I'm trying to build my bloody profile at the moment, which I hate. Everything in my bones screams ick about this. but then you know and I get you because I'd love to be able to do all the stuff that I do without necessarily having to post stuff but I know that's the way that I can attract more listeners to the podcast if I can do that then I can do more adventurous things with the podcast or you know I know in work my day job if you like we're encouraged to let the world know what we're doing regards shows and try and build our audiences and it's a very big thing you can imagine at the BBC about your digital audience so it's kind of coming at you from from all angles and you can be as disciplined as you want in terms of your own usage but then why hypocrite for then posting you know because i'm i'm just fueling somebody else's habit so it's who's going to jump off first is the kind you know i have these conversations with quite a few people i know there's some like-minded people who do similar kind of things to me and hearing what you're saying would be absolutely nodding in agreement but it is that feeling of what do we do about it what are we going to do yeah so as a parent there are lots of things you can do right so you can control on your child's phone what they're looking at and and the hours they spend on it is that the easiest thing do you think the first intervention uh the first intervention yes is simply you know bringing kids up so that they know what boredom is and they've got other skills and they can you know harness their own imagination and they have a bit more resilient to think of other things that they could be doing.

36:57And that's why inevitably so much of the debate is focused on that generation and making sure that we don't make any more mistakes where they're concerned. But that is not to say I don't think there's hope for everyone else, you know, because I think there's value. I'm seeing the value in myself of the very small steps that you can take to not charge your phone in the bedroom, you know, to turn off notifications to, you know, I've got a phone sleeping bag product that I use, you know, around my children to demonstrate to them that I'm on their clock now. You know, this is our time. This is when we're going to be together.

37:36And the more you start to see products like that, the more we start to see no scroll zones appearing in cafe environments. It's a, they're small steps towards cultural change ultimately. And I do think that influences and cool brands can help shift culture in that direction by ultimately making analogue cool again. You know, that's what it's about. You know, there's a little bit of digital defiance wrapped up in reminding, you know, younger people of cool and them themselves and their voices are the most powerful, right? You know, Ruben's voice is going to be more powerful to that generation than yours or Kenny's would be, you know, for obvious reasons.

38:23So if we can get young talent to help tell that message to their followers and their kids and make it seem cool to actually just not have your, you don't need your phone out when you're playing basketball with your mates or when you're out on the street. And let's go to events where we don't get them out and live like it's 1996. And 90s is very cool at the moment, you know. It is, yeah. Kids are always asking me about 90s music and 90s, and it really, it doesn't feel like that long ago to me. God, no. But of course it is. It's as long ago as when I was growing up. I was like, the 60s seemed cool.

38:58I know. But yeah, and usually it's music and cultural things. And as they see it, gosh, you could say anything in the 90s. TV, you seem to be able to do anything you liked on TV. But actually, they didn't have the distraction. We didn't have the distraction, these folks. that were constantly monitoring us and, you know, nights out. The lowest can't believe I've hardly got any photos of nights out in the 90s. Thank God, right? You didn't take a camera with me. You barely ever had a camera with you, did you? So, you know, yeah, I've been to that place. I've never seen any photos. Well, no, I didn't take any photos.

39:30It's, you know, the way they live their lives is so different and the way that, you know, you see kind of what their enjoyment comes from is so different. So you kind of have to be sympathetic and you have to understand that they've grown up with it. But at the same time, I think, as you say, them realising that this has to change is probably a lot more powerful than us as parents kind of shouting at them, whether we're using a tone or not with them. I feel a lot of friends who've got younger kids are seriously worried. I mean, the statistics that I've read in your articles, I've mentioned the 93 percent.

40:02You've talked about three hours to four hours a day. You know, these, they're just so worrying. So that's why I had to get you on, because I felt like... There is hope. You know, I can spend days in this industry thinking, oh, I'm just pushing water uphill, and, you know, the genie's out of the bottle, and the horse has bolted. I've heard them all, right? And there are certain days when I just think, what am I doing? People think I'm up against big tech. I'm not. I'm up for the conversation with big tech about what this looks like. and where we're getting to is the point at which everybody's personal concerns around this because I'm like a priest when I open the door to this conversation I just get the full confessional of all of their bad habits you know all their concerns about their children and I and I just throw the question back to me well you've got to jump that chasm from your personal concern into your professional life because you've got power you've got influence either in your own personal brand, in the employees that work within your organization, you know, in the messaging and, you know, the marketing, the advertising that you do that reaches millions, if not billions, around the world.

41:19There are things we can do to rebalance and create a more positive boundaried, you know, existence online. And, you know, that time is now. People have to take a seat at the table. Admittedly, we won't get all the answers overnight. You know, it'll be small steps. Do you think, are we kind of preaching, speaking to the converted in a way? Because if you're interested in this, it's something you want to join a conversation about. I'm amazed at the amount of conversations though that I hear or I'm kind of privy to where somebody says something that I think, my gosh, you're in your 30s and you've got a small child and you've just told me they're on their iPad too much.

41:58They're five years old. And it's so hard not to be then why do they have an ipad why are you letting them you know and and you don't want to kind of be judgmental because that's you know that's not going to get you anywhere so is there an argument therefore that there needs to be some kind of government health things and messages that are kind of you know because i'm still amazed when i talk to people about you know diet and exercise and things on you know outside of the podcast and people i think i talk about weight training all the time and then i chat something they go oh should i be doing weight training and you think well no of course they're not hearing everything that you're hearing and your algorithm and i mean that generally in life is not the same so so is it a case of taking this outside of the people who are already concerned and somehow the government and has to intervene and get the message across all all of that yes i do think that the government intervention is overdue you know and it took a long time to wake up to the danger of seatbelts and alcohol and you know drugs and smoking on You know, there's a reason why we have restrictions there.

42:57And this area is no different. You know, now we understand what we're dealing with and how quickly it has evolved into something this addictive. You know, regulatory intervention, absolutely required. It's already happening at pace within the educational sector, which is incredible because every head teacher has the freedom to say, right, phones off, off child from bell to bell, you know, the school day. That's happening. And as soon as it happens, everything improves. You know, the politics and the bullying and the grades and the attention, everything improves. So that actually has happened very rapidly.

43:36But there's a lot that can happen around cultural change. And I guess that's where I'm focusing my efforts is, yes, you and I might have tuned into this huge amount of education that's been done around the harms of online. But I don't think very many people have. so I think the educational piece of this is still hugely important and ironically getting that education onto the social platform. Well imagine if you every time you downloaded an app it had a message that said be careful how much you use this app you know this could affect your attention span this could affect you know your ability to focus on a book or in the same way that cigarettes have packets of kind of moldy looking lungs.

44:15Anyway I'm very aware that we've been wasting valuable scroll all the time. And I really enjoyed our chat. I think it's a really important one to get out there. And hopefully you are at the vanguard of what will be, along with some other pioneers, important societal change and behavioural change. Absolutely. And you'll be getting involved less scroll, more soul, I hope. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm in your army, Jess. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming on the midpoint. Really enjoyed it. Thank you for having me.

44:45Thank you so much for listening today. And if you want to find out more about what Jess is up to, then you can go to her Instagram account, which is JessButcherMBE, where you'll find out about hashtag less scroll, more soul and sign up to be part of Jess's army.