Natalie Pinkham

0:04Hello and welcome to The Midpoint. My guest today is a well-known face to fans of Formula One. a regular on Sky Sports for almost 15 years. Her sharp journalism and warm and witty style of broadcasting have seen her become one of the most trusted voices in the sport. Away from her television career, Natalie's early life saw her study politics at university. But during that time, she travelled to Romania. And that has led to a lifelong commitment to campaign for change in the way foreign orphanages operate, an experience that had a really strong influence on her views about institutional care. And it led her to be an advocate for Hope and Homes, a charity which hopes to end orphanages and replace them with safe and loving environments for children.

0:44She's a crusader. When her friend Caroline Flack died, her response was to set up a festival and raise awareness of mental health issues. Her own children, Wilf and Willow, are 10 and 9 years old, and something I admired greatly was Natalie's insistence that they travel with her when they were very little around the Formula One grid, something I don't think I was brave enough a decade or so before to do when I was hosting World Cups or Champions League football. So we have plenty to chat to Natalie about. We'd better get on and meet her.

1:22Natalie Pinkham. Hi. Welcome to The Midpoint. You're the most patient person in the world. We just have to pull back the curtain here and reveal we had a few technical issues, right? That's okay, it's great. And your patience was just exemplary. I appreciate it. It's just lovely to be with you. It is. pleasure to have you here and should we start with kind of why are you wearing a scarf today do you like it I do love it but there's there's been a bit of a health hiccup recently yeah so interestingly um I was having neck and back problems for a while did the marathon they got a lot worse um actually you interviewed me just before the marathon yeah and um and then long story short found out that I'd got a disc that was sort of protruding in my neck trapping the nerves down my left side but also it was pressing against the spinal cord so it was quite important to get surgery so I finally bit the bullet and got the surgery oh yeah I mean anybody who's had back pain can just imagine you must have been in excruciating pain trying to do your job smile away and be you know the person that gets the most out of the drivers and and all the time you're in agony well I tell you what it was um it's interesting because I kept thinking a massage will sort this and actually it was making it worse because I was going in everywhere we went at the end of last year I was getting massages you know locally so I was in this big Mexican one comes in steams into my neck and back and I'm thinking wow gosh she's strong but actually it wasn't the right idea.

2:54And do you know what it is? Yeah, so it is a cogenital issue, not necessarily hereditary because neither parent have it, but I did have degenerative discs in my neck. So what they've done is an anterior discectomy. They've had to go in at the front. I'll show you the scar, actually. I don't know why I'm wearing this because actually you should be proud of scars, shouldn't you? They tell a story. So they go in at the front, anterior discectomy, and they have to actually take your voice box out, which is a bit gross. Can you see the scar? Yeah, for somebody who, yeah, you can. For somebody who speaks for a living.

3:27No, you have to sign something to say you might lose your voice. It will heal beautifully, I think, won't it? It looks like a pair of lips. It's a bit weird. And then they have to move the esophagus trachea and go. And then basically they've taken out the disc and they fused it, but they've also put in a little cage to try and prop the neck up. and I'm trying to now get the function back in my left hand because I can't sort of cross my finger. I can't click. Oh my goodness. Like Mr Burns from The Simpsons. To go into surgery like that must have been quite a big decision for you to go, right, how am I going to, this is the only way I'm going to get better if I do this.

4:08And as a mother of two young children who travels the world for her job, it's a very, very busy life. Having to slow down and almost stop must have felt very alien. Yeah, absolutely. It was a forced stop. I've never really had one in the last 20 odd years. And it's interesting because when you stop physically, that's often when you stir up the mental noise. So it's actually been a real period of reflection the last sort of six weeks for me, which had its pros and cons. So I this is the first time I've spoken about actually the first time I've spoken really for a few sentences at a time more. this is the first time I've done a podcast or broadcast or anything.

4:50Wow. Since the, it's quite hard to talk because it's all the scar tissue. Right. Here. So it's, yeah. And you were saying before, we'll get back into what you're about to say then, because I feel like, you know, very privileged to have this conversation with you, but you have to eat small amounts often because you can't even chew and, and swallow or masticate and swallow as often as, you know, a normal. Do you remember when you're being pregnant? Did you remember being pregnant and everything being pushed right up? do I? Having that reflux. Yes. It's that feeling. It feels like you eat or drink something and it just stops there and you have to sort of wait a while.

5:24And then so, yeah, little little snacks through the day as opposed to big meals. So this is the first time you've kind of sat and talked. Yeah. No, I haven't done anything. Sky have been amazing. They've just said, look, take as long as you need because the thought of actually going on air right now, I think partly because you feel very vulnerable when it's your neck is the sort of pathway between your brain and your body. And there's something I feel, I don't know, vulnerable is the best word I can think of. It's a strange feeling, but sort of the idea of being on telly and broadcasting. I'm a few weeks off that yet, I think.

5:58Yeah. And so that period that you've had where you've stopped and you've had time to think about life, especially in this period of life and, you know, heading kind of towards your late 40s and feeling, I'm sure, like a lot of people, kind of the world is changing, I'm changing. How has it been? That's exactly what it's been. It's been, considering your own mortality for the first time really ever, being very grateful, which again is important to stop and consider. And then considering your own identity has been a big part of it. so in terms of the mortality I mean look anyone who's had anesthetic knows that it sears through your veins for days if not weeks afterwards and you get very emotional so I have been really teary are you somebody who doesn't mind having a few tears in front of the kids or do you try to hide no interestingly after um after we lost Caroline Flack we did some therapy with an amazing lady called Julia Samuel.

7:04Oh, she's been on the podcast. Oh, I know. I saw it. I listened to it. Honestly, she is amazing. And she told me reasons why it's so important to cry in front of the kids. And the first being that it allows them to cry. The second that it shows that you can brush yourself down and get back to making their supper, being present for them, and therefore you've got that strength and they can learn from that. And the third, because it empowers them because they can also cheer you up. Support you. Yeah. so it's a two-way street so I learned back then but it took that actually to teach me that um how important it is to cry in front of your kids but I think the only thing I've maybe got wrong with this process is letting the kids see me in hospital in ICU with all the tubes this big bloody bandage around my neck I think that maybe was a mistake because one of the reasons that I was a bit late coming here was because my daughter's now really struggling with separation I'm sorry oh yeah oh she's really struggling to leave you yeah because she's been my shadow yeah so um I feel bad for her yeah and and that's understandable because you don't want her thinking all day long at school yeah I hope mom's going to be well that's what she said she said well what if you don't come back you know so I think when they see you that but look I wouldn't like to in my 40s I wouldn't like to see my mum with a big bandage and tubes coming out of everywhere but at the time you made that decision on the best knowledge you had didn't you think well you know they kept asking to see me and I really wanted to see them and I did feel quite low um in hospital and I you know only like three or four days but I then was at home for ages like just struggling and you're such an active person I think that's the issue is I'm not very good at doing nothing at being still even you mentioned caroline there and i imagine when you were going through the grief of losing her your natural instinct was to create you know a festival in her name and to carry on obviously working and being a mum being busy and probably carry on training and being active and we all know the benefits the mental health benefits of exercise so to take all the stuff away from you that helps you cope that's interesting is really brutal i hadn't thought of it like that as you because you're right i haven't been able to exercise for six weeks and I've really like I haven't felt myself at all like my body feels like it's sort of failing me and that is another really interesting thing because um uh you know you and I are both into being strong physically and that helping us be strong mentally and I'm sort of like I don't even understand this body why isn't it working and why is my neck not working you know all these things um but one pretty um well traumatic i suppose might be too well no i don't know you tell me what you think but um i spoke to the surgeon afterwards after the operation and he said something quite fascinating happened and i said oh yeah what he said well i had to tip your chin back to get more space to you know more like a wider operating window sound like i'm talking about the Red Bull, don't I?

10:14But tip your chin back and get bigger. But every time I tipped your chin back, your whole nervous system powered down. And I went, what? And he said, and if I brought your chin forward, you powered back up again. And I said, almost like a robot, you know, and I said, what does that mean? And he said, well, it's very serious. I had to keep your chin in the right position to keep you alive and i just couldn't believe it i just was like so literally just the tilt of your head yes because it was so you know crucial to the spinal cord yeah he said everything down here just powered down oh my god and then powered back up again so of course i was just sort of lying in this hotel hotel it did feel like a hotel for a couple of days hospital bed thinking again considering my own mortality thinking you know we are just flesh and bone we are just a yeah and how how how fragile yeah how just one tiny maneuver the chin up the chin down chin up love you're literally on and you're off yeah and and my life was genuinely literally in his hands and you know it was that sort of blew me away and I think that's what really wobbled me that's what made me cry a lot and I remember talking to a couple of my girlfriends about it and they said just keep talking about it because it is fascinating and you were always going to be okay there were nine people in the operation around me monitoring all these sensors all over my body one person dedicated to the voice box um and watching you know if that dropped if function started to drop they would then bring it back to make sure you didn't lose your voice which is quite incredible that's extraordinary and you and you come through an experience like that and you think about all those people i'm sure i mean even when i was giving birth and ended up having a really emergency kind of procedure after I'd given birth because I was losing too much blood.

12:05All these people around me, I kept thinking while I was trying to stay awake and not lose consciousness, all the jobs they do and how important they are. And you're just so grateful, aren't you, for their expertise and what they do. So I'm sure that gratitude you talked about at the beginning extends to them as much as life itself and the preciousness of it all. And I did say to Willow, oh, they said that my voice might be different when I wake up. And she She said, what if you can speak Chinese? Wouldn't that be brilliant? And I said, and that was literally the first thing she asked me when I came to.

12:37Can you talk to her? Actually, I was quite grateful to be able to talk. I'm not sure my husband was, but I was. I was like, hello. Oh, yeah, it still works. So straight away you could speak. Yeah, I mean, it's been croaky. You sound like you. You sound like you. Yeah, so that must have been a relief to hear your voice. Yeah. And you just don't know what's going to change when you come through that kind of experience, do you? So, you know, you walked in here today looking really well. And it was only kind of when you, you know, I said, why have you got your bag on that arm? I kind of remember the severity and serious.

13:06And I didn't know what had led. I saw you on social media, but I didn't know what had led to this operation. I thought it was, I assumed it was kind of a training accident or something, you know, because you do. You have been such a fit. Yeah. I think it's made me much more conscious of my body. Actually, it's also made me think a lot more about my kids and doing things now that will support them and just to be aware of your body. And I'm not sure whether there's anything that I could have done differently. No, I think it's quite interesting when I when I see that I'm trying to sort of learn to love the scar because I look in the mirror at the moment.

13:39I still get the willies about it. I kind of go that someone's literally put a knife through my neck. You know, you just you know, I know that sounds a bit dramatic, but I mean, I'm sure in a few years time you'll have some story you tell in a bar. you know you came up with all sorts couldn't you yeah come on can you help me think of something today my friend has got a big scar around here from an operation she had as a child she tells people it's a shark bite i'm not sure if you fancy going down that road 100 how has the obviously you've got a loving family and how is obviously you know your husband is i'm sure quite impatient really yeah he's been great but he's like hang on he's a doer he's very practical and I think also I mean I'm sure your listeners will relate to the fact that um they don't really like seeing you no weak or anything but yourself because like can we can we get on with it now um but yeah he's very like you have to do a b and then c will come so he's like look you're getting better every day but I think a couple of my girlfriends rang him and said look can you just let pinky have a little cry when she needs to now and again and he was like yeah okay so he's like okay get it all out like that just gives me a little fact he's not used to seeing you vulnerable no that i think that's probably being a warrior woman isn't it i don't know it's just i think yeah he's used to me being powering through yeah and just you know okay let's just get this get this operation done and get on with it do you think it's changed you i mean it's definitely yeah it definitely has i'm i know it sounds really corny but i spoke to the surgeon and i got quite weepy with him as well and I was like you know this is this is much more invasive than I thought I think that was the thing I hadn't really talked about it with many of my mates and I hadn't really addressed it I mean one of our mutual friends Adam Bidwell didn't even know my mum messaged and she went she's woken up and he went from what and then he came around he came around to um see visit me in hospital he came bless him he came straight there I thought your mum was going mad she's texting me daily yeah yeah but it was it was an amazing moment because Wiggy my husband and my mum so Wiggy had been with me all through the day through the four hours of the operation and then at the end waited till I woke up and everything then my mum had come they were kind of doing like a tag team thing and then bidders had come bidders had come so the doctors had seen my husband leave and then they see this other mystery man arrive should say handsome hunky bloke yeah yeah and he comes and sits down in ICU by the way this is the guy that is the godfather to our children and introduced me and my husband.

16:11He's like a brother to me. But I was feeling really rough and I was sort of drifting in and out of consciousness. And I was sort of, it was very painful. And I said, look, just tell me stories to distract me. I can't really talk. You talk at me, just tell me stories. So he was like, right, I'll tell you some stories from the summer. I was like, no, here we go. And what's he been up to? And he said, I did have this big fall in Mykonos. I fell over and really hurt my shoulder. He said, you wouldn't believe it. I've got a big bruise. And he took his stood up and took his shirt off, at which point the doctor comes around the corner.

16:45Having seen my husband leave, another man arrived with his top off and I'm lying in the hospital bed covered in shoes. I was like, put your shirt back on, what are you doing? They're going, wow, that patient, she's a handful. Yeah, she's exactly. So your life going forwards from here, you see yourself, obviously, you said it would be a few more weeks before you're back to Sky. but do you see yourself going as full tilt and as fast paced? I feel, you know, definitely, oh, this is what I was going to say. So I spoke to the surgeon and he said, look, just go outside and let the sun. Do its thing.

17:21Just feel warm on your cheeks. Let the wind break. And it's so corny, but it's so true. I just looked at the sun and I felt the breeze and I felt grateful. I was like all the little things, the colours. And I was like, wow, I'm so grateful for life. And I'm so grateful for my kids and my husband and my family. So there's been a reset that I definitely needed to do because I have been powering through, I mean, 14 years in Formula One. Yeah. You know, some full seasons of 20 odd races. It's just bonkers. The travel alone. I was just saying something the other day. I love my job. If I could click my finger, if I had a superpower, it would be to click my fingers and be in the place I need to be.

17:59Because the travel is what is really tiring, isn't it? And for you, you know, then flying straight into being mum again and when they were little, taking them with you as well, which I mentioned in the introduction today that I really admired that because when I started out, I would never have dared ask if I could bring a baby with me, you know, to like Champions League or something when I was ITV. but you and other women that I work with now um Kelly Summers brought her little girl to to the Euros in the summer the women's Euros and has brought her to the men's Euros as well and and I think that's really a great leap forwards yeah I agree I agree and it's you know I've always wanted them to understand my job I'm not leaving them this is what I'm coming to do having this appreciation for it I mean I walked through the paddock at Silverstone with them in the summer and they loved it because they understood you know when I'm talking about Dave the sound guy they met Dave the sound guy and they're like oh yeah we hear about you or whoever it is and whatever the context and then they see the drivers and they came to Bahrain as well this year and and yeah it's it's important it's important for your family to understand what you do and for your actually also for your work colleagues to understand you're a mum because um And actually, I think there's only two mums on our whole team.

19:18And I think that definitely needs to change. I always think, you know, whenever people say to me, what can anyone do to really help parity in the workplace? It is consider childcare because that is the biggest hurdle for us as mothers. And, you know, be that role model to the kids that actually my mum was to me, in fairness. I always had a mum who worked. I always appreciated that. and I wanted to emulate that. I never felt a lack of love. I just thought it was cool that she was this barrister who stood up for people who didn't have a voice and I felt very proud of her for that. And that's really what I'm trying to teach my kids is that you can't necessarily have it all, depends how you define all, but this is what I'm trying to do for all of us and be a part of that.

20:03And I'm sure they get that and they see. Well, the only thing is I was trying to, yeah, I think that's the problem is that, so Willow today was very weepy when I dropped her off at school. And she said, but where are you going? And I said, I was coming to see you do a podcast. She said, well, I'd like to go and see Gabby. I'll just come with you. I'll sit in the corner and just listen to the podcast. She'd be more than welcome, but I think school probably needs her today. So you touched a little bit there on kind of the circus of working in Formula One and maybe childcare could improve. Do you think other things could improve in that working environment?

20:38I mean, Susie Wolfe's been interviewed a lot recently about her journey in the sport. And I guess the spotlight was thrust onto the sport with the Christian Horner kind of episodes over the last year. And for a lot of people, you, you know, and there are a few other women as well who are doing the interviews and in the paddocks doing the important stuff. But I was just thinking, you know, the team principal jobs, obviously the driver jobs, the jobs that kind of have been male traditionally are still quite male. Of course they are. And, you know, an interesting thing happened where I was shown a picture of the team principal's dinner.

21:13And the first thing I thought was, oh, where's Christian sitting in relation to Toto? And then I stood back and I said, hang on a minute. No, the first thing I should notice is that they're all white, middle-aged men. There are no women in that picture. Ayo Komatsu, Asian guy. But I mean, beyond that, we're really struggling on that front. And I just thought we've got to do better than that. And actually I was part of the problem because I didn't even notice it straight away. I was complicit. You were more looking at the kind of politics of the picture. I was looking at the dynamic of the group.

21:48And obviously this is before Christian left, but everyone was interested to know whether Toto would sit anywhere near Christian. And I thought, okay, I need to change because I've been conditioned to accept that it will just be a room full of men. And I think we are getting better, but unfortunately it's not happening quick enough. But it is happening. And my God, when I walk through the paddock now, there are so many more women than when I started. And they're all doing brilliant things and they're fuel flow operators and they're changing the tyres on pit stops. And they're not just doing stereotypical female jobs.

22:21It's definitely, definitely getting better. And there's been key moments on that journey that have played a big part in that. But we need to keep working on it. And it looks very exciting. like race day itself looks like you know you just want to be in the middle of that when you're watching on tv and i guess that kind of the characters that are in the sport you obviously are known for bringing out personality and interviews and drive to survive has certainly helped bring a load of characters into people's lives that they never would have realized before my ex-sister-in-law my brother's ex-wife has become completely obsessed with formula one i mean She posts stuff on race day about the race and she's totally into it.

23:03And that's all from Drive to Survive. And so I know that the numbers are real, aren't they, in terms of more female fans? And it's up to 41 % now, female viewers, which, you know, doesn't surprise me because I always say that there's something for everyone in Formula One. There are so many subplots to the sport. It's not just about the competition on track. And I think that's what they did so cleverly is that they deified and humanised the drivers at the same time. So they were like, these are just the lads next door, put their hoodie up, walk through an airport, not get noticed. And by the way, they've sacrificed a huge amount to get there.

23:36They are normal kids doing something superhuman that you can only dream of. And it is astonishing. And when you compare it to a couple of thousand in the Premier League, whatever, in terms of the depth of squads, 20 drivers. you know um so i think there's an appreciation and people buy into the drivers in a way that um perhaps we hadn't done before drive to survive you know you're on a journey with them and then when it comes to race day you feel you know committed and you feel bought in and you want to back them don't you because you know what it's taken for them to get there yeah and they because they give so much because it's such a heavily sponsored sport always has been the drivers give a lot you know they they do a lot of interviews don't they and we and we get to see them kind of right up to the moment of the battle if you like yeah nothing's quite rare yeah you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to sort of weave through a dressing room and go oh yeah or even on the pitch on the pitch yeah like go up to the player i mean now we do this kind of center circle thing where we're allowed to be on the pitch for four minutes and you know which is great yeah and we just kind of do it to try and get close to the action we can't talk to them yeah occasionally a ball hits you on the head or something and you know you get a sorry but we're not allowed to chat that would be i saw laura woods they tapped it from my one of my proudest moments was at lute and arsenal where i i kind of managed to trap it and then did a backheel i was like yeah and nobody caught it the pundits saw though so that was the most important thing um but but that moment you know there that would be the equivalent of me just kind of grabbing hold of the kaya saka and going how are you feeling about today's game you know they would never stop so that is always amazes me incredible but if you add in the layer of jeopardy that they're about to go 250 miles per hour yeah that's astonishing because you'd think they really have to get into the zone there all he's going to do is he's kick a ball from a corner you know yeah yeah i mean all your drivers are obviously as you say in a kind of life or death situation where focus is absolutely paramount to what they do but we do sort of have these little symbols and codes to you know I I know that like Daniel used to always just put his headphones on and that would just be please don't talk to me right um and I would always respect that and other drivers are much more you know in a way perhaps they want to just yeah relieve some of the nerves and the energy by talking I don't know but everyone deals with it differently and does it when you talk about it now and you haven't been involved for a few weeks obviously because of what you've described and been going through does it feel as exciting to get back into it are you kind of thinking yeah I do want a bit more of that.

26:10Oh, I love the sport and the buzz of live television. And, you know, there is no autocue. There's no, we have a vague running order before the show, but you're really sort of winging it afterwards and you're reacting to what you've just seen. And that is, that's unique in many ways. And it's a buzz. And as you say, I mean, my last race was in Italy and we went up on the podium in front of the Tifosi and it was like, this is wild. it was just amazing to you know feed off the energy of the crowd and yeah so it's a real privilege i'm i'm really lucky and i am excited to get back i'm just nervous because i mean i pulled out of going to oasis because um i was too worried about getting whacked on the back of the head by it and i thought god it must be bad to pull out of oasis i'd be i got this tickets a year ago i was so happy um did somebody lovely bidders oh bloody bidders pops up no wonder he felt he had you talked a little bit before about your mum fighting for people and justice and that really sparked a thought in my mind because I wanted to talk to you about your passion that started when you went to Romania when you were 18 years old and you went to an orphanage and became incredibly passionate about the way children were treated in foreign orphanages and and you've and then did You didn't start, you joined a charity, didn't you?

27:31Yeah, so I knew that I wanted to, I wasn't allowed to adopt this little girl. I had to, Morella. I had to, I could effectively adopt her, but within Romania. So the international adoption was outlawed some time ago. So this was a case of trying to get her out of an institution and into a safe home. and they wanted to limit that to sort of 10 kids rather than these vast ones. So how many kids would have been in the first orphanage? Oh, hundreds and hundreds. I mean, it was so weird because I went, as you say, when I was a teenager, I was still at uni and we'd knock on the door and it would sound like there was no one in there.

28:17And I would say, we're in the wrong place. And they said, no, no, no, go in. And this was the sort of most upsetting thing of it all was that kids learn not to cry when no one comes if they do. So they just stop crying. And it's eerie. You'd open these doors and there would be hundreds of children, like babies just lined up on mattresses, not crying. It's the most basic instinct, isn't it? And a kid will do it in order to, it's the earliest form of communication. He's saying, if I cry, I'll be fed. I'll be cuddled. I'll have my nappy changed. Well, no one does. So then they stop. and I was really struck by that so um but yeah hundreds and hundreds of kids and and then you you obviously raised money and you went on a kind of this was your mission almost you you know really were so passionate about this and I know you you still occasionally do things yeah sadly Mirella is no longer around and um that must have been oh it was horrible because yeah because there was so much hope around her story and effectively we'd raised the money with a lot of help from friends in formula one because it's my first year in formula one i literally went from the sewers under book arrest looking for her to the paddock in sydney in um sydney in um melbourne there you thank you um and i i remember bumping into the the head of pirelli at the time who um he said oh what did you do over the winter i know you may you don't want to know it's so far removed from this he's no no no tell me anyway I told him and he was really taken about by it and he said where was this out of interest I said it was a tiny little place called Slatina in West Romania he said I'm building a Pirelli factory in Slatina and I said you're joking he said no no I'd like this to be a sort of a legacy almost yeah and a project that Pirelli can help you with and and then I found out that he himself had been abandoned at birth and that's why it was such a powerful what a chance but beautiful kind of moment serendipity it was absolutely astonishing and he gave me there and then 20 25 grand to kick things off and we raised the money and built the home and brought her into it and then it was just brutal she died three months later so she'd finally found love she'd finally had a home how old was she and we're not entirely sure she didn't have a birth certificate but I would I would guess 15 but she was tiny I mean she was like she could have been eight or nine and she didn't have um her communication skills were limited yeah so she didn't she yeah she was non-verbal but she could communicate it was quite powerful that you know she would she would hug you and and yeah god you're reminding me of it now because I remember taking her back to one of the little rooms that they kept her in before we were able to move her into this family home and by the way this is all with the help of hope and homes for children which is who i collaborated with and who i will work with until the day i die because they are just incredible people and they've got such a a finite vision of closing down all orphanages all institutions and getting kids back to a family some semblance of family whatever that looks like whether it's one parent one auntie an uncle grandparent but we just need to empower the families to look after them so yeah she she communicated in her own way but it was so interesting because I remember it's coinciding with the anniversary of Ertan Senna's death and Roland Ratzenberger died on the same weekend and we actually had Ratzenberger's family in the studio with us that weekend and I knew I had Mirella's memorial the next day and I said to Roland Ratzenberger's family how on earth did you cope with the fact he just got into Formula One and then he died and he got in late as well and it was quite incredible what she said she said because you know he had got in and therefore we take comfort from that and then that made me think of Mirella we had saved her she did feel love and then his family said and he's had the most profound legacy what walker we ask for in life and there and then I just was determined that Morella would have the same.

32:35So that is why I will work with them forever more until we achieve this goal. So it's no surprise that that young woman who took on that kind of baton and decided to do something when she felt there was an injustice is the same person who, as I said before, threw herself into creating a festival when one of her best friends died by suicide and that obviously for for you was a way a cathartic way of and celebrating caroline yeah kind of therapy i suppose yeah yeah yeah you're right it just feels like you it's important to do something isn't it i think lots of people relate to that you just feel powerless in those situations particularly i think when it's suicide because there's so many emotions swirling around of guilt and anger and shame and blame and all these weird feelings and you think i should have done more and I will scroll through Caroline's messages and think why didn't I see these red flags you know it's hindsight yeah but I you know there were signs there and so yeah when I spoke to her mum and sister about it and they I said you know can we do something that we can remember her by and it's been really really powerful actually it's been amazing to be involved with and And I've met, you know, Caroline was great at collecting people, collecting friends of all different walks of life and lots of different skill sets.

33:58And so it wasn't hard to reach out to those people to say, do you want to come in on this? And they've been incredible. And yeah, this is our fourth year this year. And it's hard work, but it's really rewarding work. Like you wake up in the middle of the night and you go, what if we did this? It's like a blank canvas creatively. It's lovely. So anyone who's struggling, I would suggest, you know, in whatever way you can to just create something because then it feels like you're doing your mate justice or a loved one. I read something the other day about related to depression and movement, obviously, as anybody who enjoys exercise and movement knows, it can just release so many good feelings that you kind of move forwards.

34:45But it's also the action of moving forwards because psychologically, that's why walking is so important. I think people who, you know, feeling blue, I know it's easy to say, get up and go for a walk, but you are physically taking a step forward. It fills up progress. Yeah. And that is and that is progress and creating something like that, I think, is progress. And it, again, just amplifies that conversation, doesn't it? So the young girl who did a politics degree, I would say that's not wasted because, you know, you clearly the politics that kind of is in navigating, you know, a charity, navigating a festival, navigating a sport that has been traditionally male dominated.

35:20and you know and even as i pointed to taking your your kids you know that's kind of moving boundaries and barriers isn't it so so while you might not directly use british government and politics in your it's funny you should say that because after this i'm going to mclaren to talk about logistics in a disrupted world oh and actually and globalization of and that is actually what i did my um really that dissertation on at uni who would have thought it so you're giving you're giving the talk now i'm sort of like curating like as in mc something that you actually you do know about i don't i can't remember anything but years ago but well that globalization and also i suppose like like a lot of other sports formula one is going to be challenged with the the fact that you know it's very unenvironmentally friendly for everybody to travel around the world watching sport doing sport and you know there's obviously kind of offsets and carbon offsets and all that kind of stuff but we're already seeing athletes speak up and say they don't want to compete in certain tournaments especially in athletics itself you know there's a a few well-known names who who've said i'm not traveling to australia for that race or you know i can race in this continent we know that certain countries are not gonna be able to host major football tournaments ever again because of temperature and you know so or they're gonna have to move the tournaments you know to be at a time of year that it's more um sustainable for people to actually breathe and live so do you do you hear those conversations in formula one yeah Yeah, we do.

36:44And actually, there is a commitment to it. I mean, we are having the biggest technical overhaul in the history of the sport as of next year. And a massive part of that is to make it more sustainable. So we're using sustainable fuel entirely to power the cars, which I think is fascinating. I think something that I shouldn't really say I'm proud of because I've had nothing to do with it, but I'm, you know, vicariously proud of is the fact that Formula One are trailblazers when it comes to technology. and listening to the difficult questions that are being asked of them and all sports and coming up with solutions.

37:19I think really Formula One and some of the brightest brains do come up with ideas and this is one of them, to make it more sustainable. And I think also they are grouping together races in a much smarter way now so that we fly to one part of the world, do the races there before taking everything to the next stage of races before we just sort of followed the sun and got great suntans, which stopped there, workers' tan. And it is, you know, obviously all the drivers have stunning supermodel girlfriends and there was something at the weekend, I think, was it Max Verstappen who was saying, or last week was saying, you know, there were too many shots of wives and girlfriends.

37:59Oh, Carlos Sainz. Was it Carlos Sainz? Well, he was annoyed because they missed quite a few, well, no, his wife's probably the most stunning of the old girlfriend. But no, it was interesting because he'd done a number of very, cool overtakes on track which had been missed so i think he was a bit miffed that he was thinking it was his stunning girlfriend who was in shot not not his overtakes but it's it listen for me i i haven't got a problem with it because um it it makes the the sport feel accessible and aspirational and all the things that you know if if if men and women are watching and they're all as i said before coming in for different reasons they're coming in for different reasons and then they're staying because they're like oh this is actually hugely competitive and hugely compelling I like watching any sport.

38:40I like seeing shots of the parents in the stand. Yeah, you want to know who's made those superhumans. Yeah, and rugby's got this real tradition for families coming down to the edge of the pitch and meeting the players on the pitch, which football doesn't quite in the same way. When England plays sometimes abroad, football-wise, they'll go up to the stands. But I love those moments. I'm always watching out for the dynamics, the hugs, the emotions that they share and the people behind the mask kind of thing. So yeah, I'm up for it. Yeah, totally. um so so in terms of your you know we talked about your kind of reset almost what does it look like the next half if this is the midpoint uh yes the midpoint of recovery as well that's interesting um so i think it's interesting you know and you may have had these conversations with yourself as well that this sort of dual lens between visibility and vulnerability and this idea that we get into our 40s and we probably feel more confident than we ever have in many ways.

39:36You know, I spent my 20s trying to justify my position and, you know, I do know what I'm talking about. Trust me with this. Now that's just a given. I don't question that anymore. But then you suddenly, this is a culture and an industry that celebrates youth and hence the cutaways of all the stunning girlfriends. And you suddenly think, oh my God, I'm old enough to be their mother. You know, there's teenage girls there who are like influencers and models. But I think that's OK. I think that's, you know, just embracing that and recognising that you've got an evolving role in that ecosystem is a good thing.

40:11And it's a positive thing. And I'm looking forward to embracing it. And again, this is why I think probably I should show the old scar off. Although I noticed there's a massive difference between the colour of my face and my neck because I haven't put makeup on there. Not at all. Not at all. I'm working on that. I'm doing the old red light therapy and I've been down to our friends at BioWell and had the hyperbaric chamber. That's been really interesting in terms of expediting recovery and also just have a little sleep. Just go into these chambers for 19 minutes. The red light, I just fall asleep in a red light.

40:48Oh, instantly. It's lovely, isn't it? So when will you be able to get back doing kind of movement that you enjoy? And I guess there's no more marathons on the horizon. that's the shame of it and he he did actually when he opened me up did say that there was quite a lot of damage around the neck and I don't know why I mean my husband's like it's like you've been a front row rugby player like you've been playing prop forward your neck's knackered it's it is weird I don't know why because my parents as I say never had anything like that but parents didn't make you scrimmage as a child no my kids make me do that now but um actually that is quite funny because my son's got into Cobra Kai, this karate TV show, and he makes his sister watch it and then makes us all do karate afterwards.

41:30And I keep... I don't want to make them paranoid about not being able to karate chop me, but please don't. And has Willow in particular, she seems the one that's quite sensitively kind of linked. Has she asked you, will this happen to me when I'm older? Yeah, they both have, actually. They both have, yeah. And actually, Wilf can't look at the scar. It upsets him. so that's actually why I've been covering it up I think he just handles things differently but every time he'll stare in my eyes and then you'll see his eyes drop to there and go and he said please just cover it up mummy I just can't bear looking at it but eventually I've just got to get it out and you know put the old silicon gel on it and it'll gradually get better I've also told them it's great for Halloween I'm just going to drip some fake blood out of it Yeah, we're only like a couple of weeks away as we sit here talking.

42:21So, yeah, always finding the positive, Natalie. And thank you so much for sharing such, you know, an intimate journey. And I think a lot of people go through all kinds of different things, don't they, in midlife that physically that make their bodies behave differently. And, you know, obviously we talk a lot about perimenopause and the changes that come from that. But yours has been quite a kind of brutal thrusting into midlife. But you know, I probably needed to be told just stop and take stock and just reflect and reset. And so I, you know, I do want to take the positives because I just think it has been horrible.

43:01It's been weird experience, but it's also been a very rewarding one and one I'm ultimately grateful for. Well, you've got to go off and chat about globalization now. So I should let you get on your way. I can't remember my own name at the moment, let alone a paper I did 20 years ago. So thank you so much for coming on The Midpoint. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.

43:28Well, my enormous thanks to Natalie, because I had no idea when she came on today that she was going to talk for the first time about her serious surgery. In fact, I didn't even know how serious it was. Following her on social media, sending her a quick message of, I hope you're getting better and everything's okay. I had no idea how deep an impact that surgery has made on her as a person and of course her lifestyle as well it's clearly taken her back and has made her reflect on her life and the way she's going to live it going forwards she's a remarkable young woman and has so much to give and I'm sure she'll continue to do that but thank you Natalie for being the first long conversation as she put it she's had since that surgery and don't worry she'll be back on your screens very very soon thanks so much for listening and I'll see you next time