Sara Davies MBE

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:25Hello and welcome to The Midpoint with me, Gabby Logan. This week's guest, Sarah Davies, describes herself as a North East girl through and through. Energetic and highly motivated, she launched a crafting business from her bedroom while she was studying at university. Sarah had spotted a gap in the market and was a millionaire by 21. She then became the youngest investor on Dragon's Den when she was just 35, a true entrepreneur. Later adventures in telly have seen her doing things like trekking in the Arctic Circle and dancing on Strictly, all whilst raising two boys and sharing her expertise in books like The Six Minute Entrepreneur.

2:02And this expertise is hard won. Sarah spent her 20s feeling like an imposter in every room, but turned the experience of being underestimated into a superpower. Now at 41, Sarah might not be the youngest in the room anymore, happens to all of us, but she's probably the smartest. and I'm very much looking forward to chatting with her.

2:28Sarah Davies, welcome to The Midpoint. Well, thank you very much. I was honoured to be asked. Oh, delighted that we could get time together in someone whose life is obviously very, very busy to have a chat about how things are, what you're doing. And actually, we come to you off the back of some quite big news because we hear you're leaving Dragon's Den, the show that has kind of catapulted you into a lot more people's consciousness. You know, people knew you in business, but Dragon's Den, I imagine, changes your life somewhat. It has been really life-changing. And when they asked me to take part in the show, I looked at all of the other women that had on there.

3:06And other than Deborah, who's like, you know, the main anchor has been in there since series three. They seem to do maybe two years and then switch out. So I joined the programme thinking I'd be doing a couple of years. And then here I was six years later, kind of almost part of the furniture. And there's been a lot of changes in my world this year. So I turned 40 last year. Not that that really made a lot of changes, but, you know, when you recess your life sometimes at 40. And also, there's a lot of changes going on in my business. So I ended up buying my original business when I first started Crafters Companion.

3:37I bought it back from the investors earlier this year. And I've thrown myself into that head first. And it's hard because they're actually filming dragons at the moment. and I love it. It's just a huge part of who I am. I love it so much. But the filming bit is just like the tip of the iceberg. It's the afterwards when you've got another dozen businesses in your portfolio and people waiting to go to board meetings and they, you know, they're at the end of a WhatsApp every five minutes. And I just looked at this and I was like, someone's got to give in my life this year. And so we agreed. And I said, it wouldn't be forever.

4:10I just said, this year I couldn't commit to doing the filming requirements and taking on any new businesses. and, you know, who knows, it might be different next year. I might have a bit more time. And the producers were really understanding because I think they love having me as much as I love doing the show. So it was just not the moment, but not that I won't be going back at some point. And you have brought your business back and that kind of must evoke all kinds of emotions as well. Because we go back to the start of your journey and you're at college and you think to yourself, oh, there needs to be a machine that's going to make envelopes, I believe.

4:44That's how it all started. And like a classic entrepreneur, you didn't just kind of look around the internet or the world to try and find one. You said, I'm going to make this. I'm going to come up with this thing and start selling it. And so begins the journey. Do you think looking back, you always had that spirit, that entrepreneurial spirit that you were going to find a solution to a problem, which I think a lot of entrepreneurs do, don't they? That's what they essentially are doing. Yeah, you know, I get asked the adult question a lot. Do I think entrepreneurs are born or made? And I think I'm kind of the epitome of both.

5:20So both of my parents ran their own business. Although if you asked me what they did when I was little at school, if my friend said, what do your mom and dad do? I would never say they're entrepreneurs because that was a big fancy word from a young lass in a pit village in the northeast of England. So I would say they run their own business or they've got the shop in the village and I'd really play it down. Whereas now I'm not, it's something I'm really proud of. And like, yeah, my mom and dad were entrepreneurs. And so I think I grew up in that entrepreneurial environment where I didn't know where our life as a family stopped and the business started.

5:53There wasn't that line that just all merged into one. I think when you grow up in that environment, that's all you know. That becomes, I wanted to do that. I knew what I was letting myself in for when I was letting myself into this life. So I always wanted to follow that path and that journey. But then I think I didn't know it was going to be in craft. You know, I just, I went off to university and did a management degree and then stumbled on this industry. But I fell in love with the industry. I just, the people who craft, it's not a hobby for them. It's so much more. It's a passion. And they're the most wonderful giving people the communities of crafters, the way they support each other.

6:30A lot of people turn to crafting, you know, when they need some support with their mental health. and they find it gets them through really tough times, whether it's the loss of a loved one or whether it's been people have found it, you know, when they've been on maternity leave and they've had a bit of postnatal depression. So I see all of the amazing stuff that crafting does for people. And I just thought, I want to be in that industry. So I just started looking at the industry thinking, well, what are the problems and how can I solve them? And that's how you start a business. You find a problem that you can solve.

7:00And for me, it was the envelopes. Loads of people make cards, don't have any way of getting the right size envelopes. And so people always laugh when I look back now and say, yeah, I made my millions out of making envelopes, but it literally was the case. And that's how I got started. And the rest is history. So you weren't particularly a crafter yourself as a kid? My mum did loads of crafts with me and my sister, but it's not like a lot of people I meet in our industry had this huge passion and turned their passion into a business. For me, it wasn't. I did a bit of crafts, I could turn my hand to any sort of crafts, but it was different in that I just, I love this industry.

7:34So I went to learn how to craft so that I could make a living at it. And I still, to this day, you know, I surround myself with the best people in the industry. I have loads of people that work for me that are way better crafters than me, that I learn from every day. And that's what always makes me better and better. Do you know, that's one key thing, I think, you know, I always want people to be able to take away things from this and people who've got ideas, maybe wanting inspiration from you. And what you just said there about having people who are better and know more around you, I think applies to any kind of CEO, top position of an industry or business.

8:09You've got to get the best people, haven't you? And not be scared to learn from them. Yeah. You know, I spend a lot of time with a lot of entrepreneurs. And if there's one thing I would share with you that I absolutely take away from that is you are a product of the people you surround yourself with. you know you that absolutely couldn't be more true and i just think if you be very careful and it's not just the people you surround yourself with it could even be you know who you follow on social media well you know what you what you are seeing what you're being influenced by that is what you strive to be like so i'm very very selective in you know who i spend my time with and and what influences i allow into my life and within business that is absolutely you know I am the best in the world at some of the things that I do, but not at everything.

8:53So I'm never frightened to hire people who are so much better than me, whatever walk of the business it's in. And being around them people both makes my business better, but also makes me better at whatever it is they're doing, because I have the respect to them. I don't sit there thinking, well, I know more than you. I might be their boss, but I don't know more than them at this. But instead, I sit around them and I think, right, you know, I've hired you. You don't hire brilliant people and then tell them what to do. You know, you hire brilliant people and let them tell you what they should be doing to make your business better.

9:24And it's always worked fantastic for me. Yeah. Going back to what you said about surrounding yourself, it's that saying, isn't it? If you hang out with five fit people, you'll become the sixth. If you hang out with five kind people, you'll become the sixth kind person. If you hang out with five, you know, lazy wasters, you might become a lazy waster, you know? And it's the kind of thing we, you know, you try and influence your kids, don't you? A little bit on that in terms of the people they hang out with and the energy they get from them and where they're, you know, where they're going to get those positive influences, especially when they stop being as influenced by us and, you know, look to the outer world, but we can still apply it as adults, can't we?

9:59You know, we talk a lot about changing friendship groups and things like that that happen in midlife and, you know, just people dropping kind of off a little bit and other people coming in and you can be more conscious, I think, about that. Do you know what? It's funny. So I had a phone call last week, catch up with a friend of mine he's actually moved to Canada now so I don't see him very often you know it's probably been six months since we've spoken but he's been in my life probably 10 15 years he's become a really good friend over that time and I found him and his wife are friends with me and my husband and our kids are all friends as well so one of them friends and even though I hadn't spoken to him in six months he was really grounded we had a great hour-long catch up on the phone and I think we just were really good for each other you could tell that that some good came from that phone call and afterwards he sent me this little not an anecdote but like a thought that somebody had sent him recently and it was likening friendships to trees and I don't know if you've heard this one but they talk about three different types of friendships is that you have the leaves on the trees who come and go you know blow off every year you might grow some new ones and then they'll blow away then you have the branches who are fairly solid in your life you know but but when times get tough they can break and snap off and fall but then there's the roots and the roots are the things that keep you grounded and you know they they might be not the friends that you don't see you know they just put their underneath there supporting who you are and it was just really it really hit me when he sent it over and I was like yes it and it really made me sit back and think about the friends that I've had over the last 40 years and and who are those roots in my life and who do I rely on?

11:38And, you know, they could be the people that you haven't spoken to for a long time, but it doesn't matter. They'll always be there. They're not judged. They're there in your life when you need them. So you can pick up, you can pick up that energy. Friends for a reason, friends for a season, friends for life. That's another one I really like as well. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't mean the friends for a season. There's, you know, just that's the time of life we're in. I mean, you're in, you just said before you came on, because we're recording this a little bit, it's not super, super early that you've managed to get a run in with the school mums.

12:06And that great bonding you have and friendship with the mums at school definitely changes. My kids have left now. You still know those people and there'll be some that you have for life, but there'll be some that are just that period of your life are really, really important because you're going through the same journey, aren't you? Which in your case looks like a healthy journey. Tell me a little bit about your health transformation, as the Daily Mail might say. I mean, I saw you running the Great North. You running the Great North Run, I think, just coming up a couple of years ago and you set yourself a challenge.

12:38And then the next time I saw you, I think you were doing some other running challenge. So it seems like it's become a really big part of your life. Do you know what it is? I've never put myself first. I've always on the long list, you know, the kids are up there, you've got the husband, the business, everything like that, and doing anything for myself, looking after myself, as I'm sure is the case with most women, we come right down the priority list. And I'm really conscious that I had gestational diabetes in both of my pregnancies. So the doctor told me, as I was leaving the hospital, she said, you must lose the baby weight.

13:09Otherwise you will develop type two within 10 years. And every year I have to go for what's called my HbA1c, where they check my blood sugar levels. And every year I can just see it creeping up a little bit, creeping up a little bit. And a couple of years ago, she said to me, she said, another year, siren you'll be pre-diabetic and I'd read Michael Musley's book and in fact I've read a few of his books all about understanding blood sugar and I think coming to understand it what I've since realized is I obviously have a I must be insulin resistant as well which is why I've had problems with the gestational diabetes and the more I understood about it the more it all clicked into place and so I realized I started to learn what I had to do to look after myself a bit more and it really was for me understanding and cutting out a lot of sugar so I started a few years ago I thought I needed something to aim for so I signed up for the Great North Run and I knew that would give me the impetus on the training as it was and also learning about sugar and it wasn't just when we say sugar it's not just cutting out the chocolate cake and the biscuits it's being really aware of you know what fruit so I eat a load of berries now but I wouldn't just pick up and eat an apple or an orange because of the fructose that's in them and you know I have a lot of quinoa instead of having rice so I'll have the same meal as Simon and the kids I'll just adapt mine a little bit and I think it's been aware it's that whole thing of dieting I was one of these people I was never just the same weight I was either dieting and losing weight or I was putting weight on there was no in the middle I was a proper yo-yo dieter whereas what I've tried to do the last couple of years is just understand how to look after myself a bit more and so what role sugar plays in my diet especially as well and actually I've recently got myself a nutritionist and it's really me I just I'm really conscious that I'm getting to that midway point in my life and I need to be I need to look after my strength a bit more need to build my strength up and I also need to be really aware of how I'm fueling my body because I'm one of these people that you know if I just on a morning you know quickly grab something an hour later I'm absolutely ravenous and then I'm reaching for a chocolate biscuit with me 11 o 'clock at work whereas actually if I can have something I have a nice chia pudding on a morning, if I can have something that's got plenty of protein and plenty of fibre, it'll fill me up for the morning so that I'm not snacking.

15:24I'd never understood this. You know, I'd seen bits of it, but I'd never really taken the time to understand it and look into it properly. And, you know, knowledge is power. And the more I've learned, I actually feel like I'm properly looking after myself, probably for the first time in my life. And now I go out for a run because I want to, because I know that I'll feel great afterwards. And then I'll also eat healthy because my body just feels better. And your energy, I'm sure your energy is way more consistent. Way more consistent. I just couldn't cope with the slumps. The problem is the highs are really high and then the lows are really low with the energy slumps.

16:01I can't afford to be like that with work. At work, I need to turn up at the door in the morning and give 110 % of me until the second I walk out of that door. The rest of the business is relying on it. so and the problem was when I wasn't feeling it I just used to fake it and that takes a lot of energy so I've actually found that probably sounds so cheesy doesn't it probably nourishing my body but actually it really doesn't it at all I mean it's you know as you say what the energy you kind of waste as well yo-yo dieting thinking about food having that on your mind and actually if you're nourishing yourself in the way you are clearly you know you look great you're enjoying your running and your energy levels are great it's brilliant and you found it at a really good time haven't you?

16:42As you said, your doctor was kind of saying, look, you better do this pretty soon. And we've had a lot of experts on the podcast who say nutritionists, the advice they would give primary perimenopausal women is if you have weight to lose, lose it before the menopause, because it is so much harder afterwards. That is exactly what's up with me. I just, I know I'm early forties now. It'll be the next thing that's on me. And I'd rather get into these habits now. So many people say, my mom would say to me, you know, once you hit the menopause, it's just like you say it's almost impossible to shift and so I'm thinking let's get into them good healthy eating mindsets healthy eating way as it was and I just problem with me is I need a bit of accountability so I reading a book or listen to a podcast isn't quite enough for me I need someone to keep a check on me so this has been a great I found a fantastic nutritionist online and you know she just checks in with me every few days and I've got to go away at the back end of this week I'm down in London a couple of nights so she'll give us a few little pointers on how to make good choices when I'm out at dinner and then also what I could pack for myself that's going to keep and travel with me well.

17:46And then she'll check in on me. And there's just the fact that I know I'm going to have to answer to her means that I'll be a little bit more mindful of what I put in my mouth because I won't lie. I know I'm only kidding myself if I lie. So if I do have a glass of wine and fall off the bandwagon a bit, I'll be first to text her and say, oh, I'm off the bandwagon. And she'll just pull us back on and off we go again. Well, it's the 80-20 thing as well, isn't it? But as you say, some people do need to be accountable and not everybody's going to be able to have a nutritionist, but there are brilliant podcasts and books.

18:12But also you can go to a friend and ask them to be that person for you. I always call them an accountability angel. Get yourself an accountability angel. I'll find a way to build something. You're like, I always needed one with my running. So I find that the only time really I've got to run is on a morning. So I would run at half past five in the morning usually before the kids wake up. Well, what I find I have to do is I have to get my gym kit, my leggings and my sports and put them at the bottom of the bed or just outside the door and I'll say to my husband before bed I'm going for a run early in the morning because then when the alarm goes off at 25 past five I roll out of bed put the stuff on and I'm out the door before my body's caught up with what's happening whereas if I haven't called him you know I'll wake up and I think I'll just turn the alarm off and the problem is I don't want that shame when he wakes up and goes oh I thought you were going for a run this morning were you too lazy you know and I don't want to have to answer to that so I make my husband, my accountability angel in that case.

19:09Also, you don't want to walk past your kit, do you? You don't want to walk past your kit at seven o 'clock and think, oh, I could have put that on actually. And I could have gone for that run. And I know I'd feel much better for it. So you've got all that stuff on track, which is brilliant because you seem like you're, it's not just something, it's a fad. These are habits now. These are in your life because you're seeing the benefits of living like this. And it's almost like you're on your second wind with your business again, because you're back in doing what you kind of loved and started off doing.

19:39Has your ambition changed as you've got older, and especially the experience in the Dragon's Den? You're absolutely right. Your ambitions do change. And I think when I was younger, it was all about I wanted to make more money. Not because I wanted the money, which sounds ridiculous, but the money was the measure of success. I wanted the business to be bigger, the turnover to be bigger. I wanted to employ more people because that was the measure of success. Whereas now coming into it, you have a completely different measure of success. You know, you were just saying there earlier how I'd gone running with the other school mums this morning.

20:12That was because last Monday morning I was doing the school drop off and I'm giving myself a gold star for managing to do the school drop off instead of doing it. Because I spent years and years dropping the kids off at breakfast club at half past seven so I could get into work earlier so I could do more work. Whereas I realized it means a lot to the kids if they can turn up and kick the ball about on the field for 20 minutes before we go into school with their friends. and they want me to drop them off at normal time instead of breakfast club. So I'm making a big effort to do that. And I saw a couple of the other mums were doing the drop-off and going for a run last Monday.

20:44And I just thought, that would be lovely. It would be lovely to be able to do that and fit it into my life. But in my head, I have to go to work between 8 and 6 or whatever. I'm saying, well, I don't. Quite often I work evenings. I work different hours. Why can I not do that? And I looked at my diary for this following Monday and I saw that we weren't recording until 10 o 'clock and I thought, I can do that. I don't have to shoehorn another meeting before and do all of this. And so I said to them, next Monday, I'll be there. And do you know, I felt so, talk about priorities changing. I've looked forward to that all week because it was a bit of time for me.

21:21And then you might start to build your Mondays and go, right, Monday meetings don't start till half nine or 10, whatever it is that you need that time to get yourself, you know. And I think that is also another accountability thing, isn't it if you put it in your diary even if you're not doing it with anybody else just you know and you know I've gone through and I've looked from now at the end of term what are all the Mondays I'm not around and I've put them in my diary because like you said that's that's the accountability different people have different mechanisms but accountability for me makes all the difference even if that's just my PA can see now and so now I feel a little bit accountable to her you know she'll plan the rest of my day around it

22:15Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

22:52You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com. That's growtherapy.com. slash start now growtherapy.com slash start now availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan you're still in the northeast i believe yeah and and clearly you know your experience of growing up in the northeast feels like it's and what your parents did is intrinsic to you and it's it's very important your roots and your family are really really important to you.

23:51Did you ever feel you had to move away to achieve success? Were you always going to stay close to home? I am a real home bird and a real country broken. And when I would say probably maybe 12, 13 years ago when the business really took off big in America. So at that point, our business was bigger in America than it was in the UK. And I was traveling over to America every three or four weeks. I used to do 100 flights a year. It was an absolute killer. And And so many people said to me, well, why don't you just move to America? Surely if there's all that opportunity, why would you not just move there?

24:24It's before we had kids. So I guess it would have been easier. But I just couldn't think of anything worse. You know, it's a big part of where I am is a big part of who I am. It's the same, you know, as soon as I open my voice, people know where I'm from. And I've always been super proud of that. I never try and hide it. And I can remember my sister went off to university. and then after she graduated she got a house down south and I was bereft and I was like oh what are you doing because you know we're up north we're up north as a family so I'm your mum and dad are and actually it was very short-lived she was there for a couple of years but as soon as she wanted to start a family and settle down she brought her then boyfriend now husband and they've settled up in the northeast and I just we just love it you know and I love So this weekend, you know, I rang my sister and I was like, oh, the boys want our Gracie to sleep around my little niece.

25:19And so I could just go and pick her up and have a sleepover. And yesterday we were around at my mum's for Sunday dinner. And, you know, it's just I love being around the family, being around the friends that I grew up with. It's just I know it's not for everybody. A lot of people like to travel and do different things and explore different worlds or different parts of the country. But for me, you know, I love where I'm from. You can take the girl out of the North East, you'll never take the North East out of the girl, but actually you'll never get this girl out of the North East. Well, it sounds to me like it's as nourishing for you as what you're doing to your body at the moment in terms of understanding what nourishes your body.

25:53Nourishing your soul and nourishing your spirit is integral to your success. Do you know, it really is. It's a good way to think about it. It's just, I don't know, it's just a feeling. The people up here, I mean, I know we always say this, but they're so friendly. You don't need to convince me. I went to Durham University, started my career in Newcastle. So I'm already, I'm in. She's in, she's in. I love it. I mean, I went out yesterday for a nice long run and, you know, I pass so many people out walking the dog, cycling, you know, going for a walk and everybody stops to say hello. You pass everybody and they say hello.

26:32whereas when I'm down in London and I go for a run with my friends you know we'll get to pass another set of runners and I'll be like hi and heads down be your phones in running a lot and it's just people are so friendly here and I love it do you know what though I think you've got to so I do live in the south and we've been training Kenny's been doing a lot of cycling for a massive challenge that's coming up I've been going out on a lot of you know 40 50k cycles with him and a friend I mean he's been going out for 80 90 100 mile rides and so he'd started doing this thing with a friend of ours was joining in where he'd say hello to everybody he passed on the bike right so the ride I went on the first time I went with him when he was doing this recent training and he was like morning morning so we got into doing this morning and it's about 50 50 the amount of people that will say good morning back to you and yeah and and they look shocked because they're out walking their dogs early because we go out half past six you know so it's early so these people are kind of minding their own business you know or it's a paper boy or something but I think you've got to practice it haven't you that stuff I think and maybe just the people in the northeast and other pockets of the country let's let's be honest it's not it's not just the northeast there are some yeah you know I go work in Wales a lot I'm pretty sure 100 % of people in Wales if I went for a bike ride would say good morning back you know but it is I think it's practice and it's important that you just do it and don't worry about the fact you might get a custard pie back you know somebody might ignore you it's just a chit chat as well I can always remember um so it was it will have been seven years ago now it was when I first did Dragon's Den so I wouldn't be recognisable I guess to people in public and I just got the train up from London to Newcastle and then I got the metro from Newcastle Newcastle airport and I was on the metro and as we do very different to taking the underground in London you sit on the metro and you just get gassing to everybody in Newcastle everybody's I mean it doesn't even come it doesn't happen on the tube does it it's just we're all just chatting and then you know somebody will get on who's a bit older looks like they need to sit somebody will get no i'll give them my seat no you sit back down i'll give them my seat you know it's and i and i chatted with these people all the way you know 20 minutes i was on the metro and it's not until i got up to leave that there was a woman who was sat there clearly had recognized me and just chatted all the way and she just said i just want to tell you pet we're all dead proud of you up here you're just flying the flag from the northeast oh it just it melted my heart but you know that these people had chatted to me on the not because I was anybody on the internet just because I was normal like they were but actually they'd known they just wouldn't say anything yeah yeah oh I go on the tube quite a lot at the moment and it just always amazes me how nobody looks I try and catch them in his eye and just smile and people don't even want to make eye contact I know it's a cliche but it is just so true and And you kind of don't, I just don't get it.

29:18Human kind of contact interaction, all that stuff that leaves you feeling warm and good. And it's just so cheap and free. Yeah, it is free. And do you know what? You can make somebody's day. Look, I'm having a little chat with somebody, just smiling at them. Or I always try and think of, you know, especially if I meet a stranger, just something nice I can say. Oh, that card, he really brings out the colour in your eyes. Just something. Because you never know how that one little comment can have a massive impact on somebody else. And so I just think it's within our human gift to do that. Why would we not?

29:50When I do try and practice that, my kids are 19 now, so they've grown up with it. They've grown up with me seeing and doing these kind of things. They go, oh, they get so embarrassed. Oh, I can't believe you just said that. You don't even know that person. Why do you say she looked nice? Why do you say her hair was nice? I said, yeah, but you'd love it if somebody paid you a compliment. And obviously, you know, they've got a very different kind of, I've been listening to debates about phones this morning, all morning on the radio and social media and all the stuff that, you know, parents have to deal with and battle with.

30:21Your kids are a bit younger. I'm not sure if they have phones yet or if they're pressing for phones. Have you got a phone policy? Oh, so we're right at that age. So my youngest is year three, so he's eight, and my eldest is year six, so he's got the big skill this next year. This seems to be the pivotal moment. Seems to be the pivotal moment. And actually in his class, there's only three of them who haven't got mobile phones. And so I'm one of them awful mums who hasn't let my kids have a mobile phone. But do you know what I've done is I've sat our Oliver down and I've talked to him. I said, I'm not being nasty.

30:59This is, you know, I don't want you to be left out. But this is why. And I've started following that smartphone free childhood movement. And I followed Jonathan Hayden on socials. and I've read his book, The Anxious Generation. And I just think, I would like to hope that I can hold out till they were four. What was it they suggest? No mobile phones before 14 and no social media before 16. But it's really hard with the peer pressure that's around there. But, you know, I was talking to my mum about it yesterday and she'd seen some sort of sketch with a really funny comedian. And they were saying about, you know, this is what parenting is.

31:34You've got to make the difficult decisions for your kid. You know, they don't like vegetables. Well, it doesn't mean that you can let them get away without eating vegetables. You know, they want to stay up and play on their PlayStation all night. It doesn't mean you let them do that. You know, you've got to make them difficult decisions for them because their brains aren't advanced enough to be able to make them decisions themselves. And so as hard as it is and as much as you want to just give in to them, and just because other parents have given in to their kids doesn't mean that we should. So, yeah, I'm definitely on that bandwagon.

32:03I think you just keep having that conversation, you know, with them, don't you? I didn't let ours have them until they were 13 because that's when they were changing and going to a bigger school. And even then they were on screen time. So there was like an hour a day. And we talked all the time about social media and how, you know, I felt that I wanted them to be, because it was I wanted you to be doing something else. I don't want you to be sat doing that. And then they handed their phones in at night. So never have them in the room. And the number of people, the parents who would say to me, oh, look, he's so tired because he's up all night on his phone.

32:32But that's your, that's, you're allowed to say. yeah you're you're paying for that phone in the first place you know so therefore it's your property so you're allowed to pull that phone back off of that person you know which is the other thing that I think sometimes parents seem scared to do and it's like do you know I even do it with the other kids so um I remember it was when a lot of I was in year five and the year five teacher mentioned it to me at um parents evening she said oh I've heard about you and I was like oh god so and it's because um i like to be the fun man where all the other kids can come around to our house and it's a safe space and i'll get pizzas and they can have sleepovers and everything like that right but i've seen it when the kids have come and either brought phones or ipads and then one of them will withdraw and sit on their ipad so i have a box at the front door so when they come to my house they put their phones or their ipads in the box and it stays in my bedroom and i say if you need to ring your mom later or anything like that you can come and ask me i'll get your phone out you can send the text i'll be put it back and it goes back in my room um and so i just it's just always been the thing and now they come to my house nobody says a word they just come in they get their phones out and they just look for the box and put the phone in the box nobody complains and they're outside playing football they did they merge so much better and they communicate as little people and i can remember i heard one kid and um they're in the playground they say oh i'll see you at the sleepover on saturday oliver and then i heard him I said, should I bring the iPad?

34:00And one of the other kids went, I wouldn't bother. You don't need it at Oliver's house. And it was just, and I was like, yes, yes, yes. But then more, you know, if more and more people have that kind of policy, then the kids won't need them. They won't feel they need them. I did exactly the same thing and really embarrassed Ruben when we were taking a boy home. And he was in the back of the car already on his phone. They were about 10. And I said, oh, Ruben hasn't got one. I said, so when we get to the house, I said, you give me it. And I said the same thing as you. He was sleeping over. I said, if there's any problem, you know, you can call your mum.

34:32You know, because when we had sleepovers or we were at people's houses when we were little, we didn't need constant communication with our parents. So I was like, I mean, it was the one place where you were delighted to get away, weren't you? Yeah, exactly. Your parents and their house rules or whatever it was. And you're in a new place. It is hard because you don't want to feel like you're overstepping your mark. But I do feel that we've also lost the confidence to think we're all helping each other here. You know, there's a community of helping other kids. It's not, we shouldn't operate in isolation, I don't think.

35:03I tell you how I always feel as well, though, is I really don't want the other parents to think that I'm judging them because they've let their kid out. And that's what I really struggle with. So I'm too nervous to say anything about it in the school WhatsApp group. I don't want to be the man that says, I disagree. So my kids, it's quite well known my kid's not got a phone, but it doesn't get talked about. So when they do come for like sleepovers, I'll just text the mam's pictures of the kids and I'll say what they're doing. And so and I always say to the kids, when you come, we tell your mam that, you know, you don't have your phone at my house.

35:37So she'll not be able to ring you and stuff. But if she needs you, she can ring me. And I just think it's but I do feel really I think you've got to hope that mam doesn't think. Judging them. Judging them. Because I'm not because until you've walked a mile in somebody else's shoes, you've got no idea what their life's like. And so, you know, there'll be reasons, baby's right, why they've done that. And so I don't, don't ask, don't judge. But yes, my house, my rules.

36:06I hope you're enjoying this episode of The Midpoint. If you are, it would be amazing if you could give us a review and subscribe. It really helps. I'll be back in a moment.

36:19So this period of life you're heading into, it seems like you've got the, you know, your career is definitely, definitely on track and ambition is strong. And you were saying it's changed. The reason, you know, kind of you go to work and what you do has changed a little bit. Your health is on track as well. So does your 40s feel like a period of growth and excitement then? Oh, do you know, I haven't thought about it like that. But yes, I'm going to make sure it is a period of that. I always remember I get asked an awful lot when I go out and do a lot of corporate speaking especially at events with a lot of women there I get asked a lot to talk about imposter syndrome and and I really struggled from imposter syndrome especially in my 20s and I felt like I completely shed that my early 30s I lost the imposter syndrome and I started feeling like do you know what if I was in a room instead of questioning how I've got into that room or am I good enough to be in that room or how did this come about or imposter syndrome about being in that room whether it was a meeting or a group I'd been asked to sit on the board of Dragon's Den you know I would sit there and think yeah that room's really lucky to have me in it you know and I just changed my perspective on life and thinking and so I became so much more confident in my own skin through my 30s and I always remember my mum said to us she says you get to your 40s pen you stop giving a shit and you stop giving a shit what other people think or anything like that and I wouldn't quite say I'm there I still I'm still a worry ward I still overthink things and I still worry a lot about what people think um but it is very much I think I'm confident in my own skin you know if I if I want to wear something for an event I'll go and wear it you know I won't I used to go to meetings and think I had to wear a you know a navy blue structured dress and a little jacket because that's what business women had to wear now I think nothing to turn up in a bright leopard print, you know, purple and pink dress or whatever, because it's a reflection of who I am.

38:14And I think, well, these people invited Sarah Davies to come along and this is Sarah Davies. If they don't want it, they'll just not ask her back again. It's their loss, not mine. And I think that's the biggest change in my behaviour over the last decade. So I feel like I'm entering my 40s totally clean of all of that and ready to just be who I am and not be ashamed end of it. Do you think the imposter syndrome you talked about in your 20s is more prevalent with women than it is with men? Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt. So whenever I do speak about it at events, I try and look around the room and get a read, look in people's eyes.

38:52And I'm not saying that men don't suffer from it because there is still, what I talk about always resonates with men as well. But women especially, we're such deep thinkers. We overthink everything. And I always say you know i mean i must have done hundreds of job interviews over my you know my career and it's really interesting because you know you do a job interview with a man and i don't want to generalize but i am generalizing and quite often you know i'll ask them uh you know can you demonstrate where you've got this and everything i'm asking for they believe they've got in abundance in buckets and they're not frightened to say it you ask a woman and immediately she you know kind of withdraws a little bit or is overthinking and then his question and am i good enough to do this and sometimes I have to be a bit pushy and say the fact that you're sitting in this room with me now ascertains that the recruiters think you are exactly what I need I'm just I'm just talking to you to make sure you're a cultural fit you know you don't need to sell me on you I'm already sold so I already know that you can do this and sometimes they just need that bit of confidence and reassurance for me and you know there's a lot of women especially as well that I've promoted over over my time I love I love homegrown people I love bringing people into the business, developing their skills and watching them thrive and grow through levels of management within the business.

40:08And quite often I'll put people forward for promotions that they haven't seen it themselves. They don't believe they've got it in them. They don't think it's right. And I've got to push them and say, no, I think you're more than capable of this and I'm here to support you and I want you to get to that. So it is definitely a seed a lot more in women than men. I do think as well, I've got a decade on you in terms of age, but I do think that as we get older, it is, and we get to a certain position in our career, I feel like it's our duty as well, and our responsibility to be able to pass on that kind of confidence through encouragement and getting people to really push themselves out of that comfort.

40:47If they're the kind of person that can do the job, obviously, you know, you don't want somebody doing something where they, you know, woefully kind of underqualified and they, you know, they're going to fail and it's going to be a horrible experience for them. But I think, as you say, there's a lot of people who just that doubt has lingered, hasn't it? My eight-year-old has a wonderful teacher at school, Mrs Ashton. She's absolutely, she's the best teacher I've come across in my career in terms of how she develops those kids. And she has this little saying that she talks about with them about making somebody else shine brighter.

41:17And what a joy it is to be able to make someone else to shine brighter. And it doesn't dim your light. By making someone else shine brighter your light doesn't get any dimmer and I and I love when I hear a talk to the kids about it I just love it I try and use that analogy at home with the boys all the time that you know it's such a feel good I always feel like my superpower is my ability to make other people feel good and I use that a lot and especially women that little bit of a birth of confidence or something you can push them on their way a little bit doesn't cost me anything it doesn't diminish my achievement they don't win at my expense you know we win we win together then and I usually say a lot of a rise and tide lifts all boats just about do I do a load of coaching I professionally coach a lot of Avon ladies I do a lot of coaching for Avon travel counsellors I do a lot of coaching there and trying to show everybody that you know you're not in competition with each with each other we're going to support each other and women supporting women I think is the most powerful thing you can ever have and having other women to look up to.

42:21But then when those women that you're looking up to are actually trying to pull you up with them is so powerful. Because by doing that, you then pass on that to them for the next generation as well. And they see that as something that they can do later and maybe down the line in their careers. You're also involved in helping people to see technical qualifications. And there's a campaign you're involved in to do with looking at education and careers in a different way. It's not, we don't just have to go to university and then apply for a job. There's a way of learning on the job and getting qualifications that will definitely suit some people more than others.

42:56Oh, absolutely. So I've been working with the Gatsby Educational Foundation. And I just remember when I was at school, so many kids in that school, there was either the academic ones or the ones that weren't as academic, but they maybe were technically strong, but their parents had this perception of, well, no, you've got to do your A-levels and you've got to go to university. And quite a lot of families, I see, well, I didn't have the chance to go to university, so you're going to go to university or whatever. So they will push kids down an academic route who are kids that are not academic because the perception in the country is academic is better than technical.

43:32Well, actually we've got a technical shortage in a lot of skills areas we are you know in the economy we are short on technicians and so there's a load of work at the moment going on trying to show parents that a technical education you know does your kids don't have to go through traditional A levels off to university to really excel in life they asked me to get involved because they have a program called T levels so whereas you have your A levels which are like academic level subjects your T T-levels are technical qualifications for people who are more on-the-job training. When I learned about it, I said, the whole benefit of T-levels is you go to college and you do the learning at college, but you also go and do on-the-job training at the same time.

44:15And I said, I'd love a couple of T-level students in our business so that I can teach them and train them and develop them, because actually, they'll be the workforce of tomorrow for me. And so from that, I've ended up getting more involved because I know that as a parent, I'm coming into that stage in my life where I'll be looking at, are my kids going to go down a more academic route or a more technical route and which one's right for them? And then also as an employer, you know, the fact that I'll... I think that's the important thing as well, isn't it? That you're not just saying, oh, do this if you can't do that.

44:44Actually, we really value this. Yes. As an employer, I would value, and there's a survey just come out that actually said employers nowadays value on the job training more than what they would value a piece of paper. And I'm thinking, well, of course we do. You know, when I'm interviewing somebody, I want to see that they can do this. Not that a piece of paper says they know it. I want to see that they've actually exhibited they can do it. And I think that's the big difference. It seems obvious and second nature to me as an employer, but we sometimes need to talk to the parents and make sure parents realise actually as employers, this is what we value.

45:24So by pushing your kid down an academic route, actually you could be forcing them into something which is less valuable to us as an employer. Well, it seems like you have this great balance of the work you do, the advocacy you do and the way you're trying to kind of promote and encourage people to think a bit differently as well around business, which is something you could see on Dragon's Den, the kind of businesses that you were attracted to and the people. you know you very much obviously the they had to know their numbers most of the time sometimes they were sometimes they're better than others but but it is so often isn't it about people and how they you know how they connect and how they relate and and that's something that i think we've all enjoyed watching you do so hopefully it's not the end of of dragon's den and we're going to see you on maybe a few more series down the line but i know we're going to see you elsewhere sarah davies because uh you have created i think a real niche for yourself within the broadcasting landscape and people really love watching you.

46:18So thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and being so inspirational and energetic. It must be all that running. I think the energy's oozing out of you and anybody who's just listened to this conversation, I think will feel suitably energised. And I will hopefully see you on a start line at a race somewhere soon. I'll be seeing you at the Great North Run this year. Don't you worry.

46:46Well, I absolutely loved my chat with Sarah, who is a really impressive entrepreneur, but also such good company, isn't she? I loved hearing more about her journey to get to this point and how, like many of us, her priorities and ambitions are shifting as she gets older. And it sounds like the start of a new chapter for Sarah, a time of positive change where she's taking control of what she wants in her 40s and all power to her for that. A huge thanks to Sarah, to Spiritland Creator for helping put this episode together, and to you for listening. Do join me again next Wednesday, or hit follow or subscribe so that you'll have the next episode waiting for you whenever you get a moment to listen.

47:22I'll catch you then.

47:28The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised. and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com slash getgab and use code getgab for an exclusive offer.

48:10That's g-a-b-b dot com forward slash getgab. Gab. Tech in steps. Independence for them. Peace of mind for parents. This week on Help, I sexted my boss. So there we go. What's been going on with you? Well, I've had my chimney swept this week. What is that? St. McFlurry. Candy Crush one. I've just had a filling yesterday. Where? He has the same name of one of my brothers. I've got a friend whose wife's called Emma and his mistress is called Emma. It's very convenient. That's going to happen. Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.