Victoria Pendleton

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1:01Hello and welcome to The Midpoint. My guest today was a poster girl for the 2012 London Olympics, a serial winner and supreme sportswoman. We all fell in love with her. In an incredible career littered with cycling world titles and Olympic gold medals, she appeared to have it all, to have conquered the sporting world. When the time came up to hang up the cleats, Victoria Pendleton seemed to discover that the highs and routine of professional sport were quite difficult to emulate in everyday life. She threw herself into a series of reality challenges, Strictly Come Dancing and SAS Who Dares Wins, and also learned to be a jockey with very little equine experience.

1:40And doing those kinds of shows and having those kind of experiences showed a vulnerability which we'd previously not seen in her glittering sporting life. And she's since talked about her mental health challenges. Her marriage to Scott Gardner, a sports scientist she'd worked with at British Cycling ended in 2018 and in 2023 her twin brother James died from a brain tumour and then last October her father Max died from Parkinson's disease. Unsurprisingly she's had to learn a lot about herself and how to keep on moving forwards when big life events happen. Her new book is called The Fear Opportunity and I'm sure all of those life experiences have fed into this book and she hopes the book will help us all turn fear and anxiety into a catalyst for growth and reposition fear, something we shouldn't try and inoculate ourselves from.

2:29Let's go chat to Victoria. Victoria Pendleton, welcome to The Midpoint. Thank you for having me. Do you feel like you're at the midpoint of life? I think I'm past the midpoint, to be honest. Because you've lived such a full and successful life. I've achieved more than I ever thought that I would. That's the genuine truth. And although you're saying I'm satisfied with what I've achieved it might sound a little bit like premature I genuinely am very satisfied with everything I've managed to accomplish so far but I think that's a journey to get to that point it is yeah it is yeah you didn't just kind of go after goal number one okay that's good I'll move on now I describe in your introduction today that you looked from the outside when the when the glittering kind of career that we knew you for came to an end it looked like you were still searching for things to get the the structure which I think you get in professional sport and the almost institutional nature of everybody looking after kind of your agenda it looked like those shows that you were picking and those challenges were to kind of guilty guilty as charged yes you're right no I do feel that I mean that's very accurate I do feel like I am someone who thrives in a environment that is encouraging me to improve I love being coached I like being pushed um you know to see what I'm capable of but the idea of like oh can I just try that can I give that a go can I can I try that for the first I want I want to be a novice I want to try I want to learn and for me it wasn't so much about competing and like I am the greatest it was like I'm better than I was last year than I was the year before can I be even better you know that questioning it was a personal personal thing yeah it wasn't about anyone else which is crazy I actually I mean I realized you know I am an introvert that's learned to be to exist in an extrovert world but you feel happiest when you're allowed to be your introvert yeah well the thing is my physicality is the thing the only thing really that gave me a sense of I don't know I don't know confidence and purpose yeah because it was something that I could rely on like my physicality is something I thought you know I am good at physical tasks and physical challenges and I can push myself hard and I draw on that as as something well I anchor to it almost in many ways because it's something that I feel like I can do yeah so the shows that and the challenges that attracted you and I'm sure there were millions of different offers coming in they tended to be physical yeah except the choreography element of certain shows yeah but it's a physical difficult thing it is a physical show though but i think for somebody who's competed at the level you have nowhere near physical enough i mean people say oh you did strictly i bet that's really hard it's not actually that it's not going to test your heart and lungs that much is it it's testing something else isn't it the memory and the choreography and my brain was like new because you were used to going round just left one direction actually that's doable i also described you as a golden girl a poster girl how did that sit with you in 2012 that you were one of a couple of faces probably you and jess i didn't really recognize myself i saw jess as the as the poster girl i never really recognized myself as one um and i yeah it was weird i didn't really recognize that at the time so when people referred to me as a gold glass i know don't be silly it wasn't me i was there i there was i was sort of on the periphery of that but people always seemed intrigued by you I feel like because you had a kind of enigmatic face almost and they they couldn't quite read you and so that you you drew a lot of kind of suppositions almost do you recognize that kind of description yeah I think so I think um I am a bit of a a conundrum I think in many ways and and for somebody who has probably always struggled to fit in to the environment uh like I went into my sport not knowing another woman who had ever done that before within my generation and lifetime um being surrounded with a group of very successful men trying to work out how to emulate but I can't copy because I'm not I'm not one of them it was it was difficult it was challenging and I think it was challenging for everyone else around me to know how to manage it as well because as much so as being told to be like this be like the men do it like this I was like I can't do it that way I need to do it my own way I had no confidence in it and therefore coaches around you yeah probably toughening me up like finding that difficult to kind of work out how to get the best out of you 100 % I mean a lot of them to this day claim that being hard on me was how they were intending to get the best out of me but I was a very diligent um conscientious serious like uh serious beyond my years as well, individual.

7:28I've never been any other way. So it's like, you don't need to push me. I'm already, believe me, I'm pushing myself pretty hard as it is. Too serious? Too serious. Yeah, at times I think so. Yeah. And who around you, when you look back, did anybody try and say, just chill out a bit? No. Do you know what the weird thing is? My dad's very serious and he's always been the underdog. And I think I've always felt very much the same. and the difficulty lies in that, the nuance that I don't feel people take me seriously and that's where it's a struggle because it's like they look at me and they would look at me and I'll she's put some makeup on and she's done the hair which at the time was just like why have you done that?

8:10And I was like because I am a woman and that's okay if I want to do that by the way and it doesn't affect my performance actually, it probably helps, you know, it's not going to slow me down if anything this smooth straightened hair will be faster more aerodynamic but anyway so it was difficult because like I want to be taken seriously but then um you know being a very serious personality where's the point where you kind of can take a step back in and be a bit kinder to yourself it's tough yeah it did did seem that you were hard on yourself always yeah and you talk about your dad and he gave you he gave you a love of cycling yeah but it was a complicated relationship in the sense that your need to please which is seems a theme as well in those years oh yeah started there I was only talking about this a moment ago was like I'm a recovering people pleaser that's a great way to put it introduced to that term for the first time and would you say you're cured or is it no is it a lifetime's work that is definitely lifetime's work I'm better at it now I think being a little bit older and having a bit more perspective and a little bit more life experience I can think I can have a better view on on that but um it's it's a difficult thing when I've I moved seamlessly from one relationship to the next whether that was with my dad or with coaches or things desperate to please and to make other people happy in order to feel a sense of self-worth or um to feel uh I don't know Validated.

9:47Validated. Yeah, validated. Like I deserve to be there. And a lot of these coaches were men. All of them. All of them. Your dad, obviously, is a male. Was there a strong kind of link, do you think, there in terms of male relationships? You know, you look back now and realise you've learnt a lot. Oh, 100%. It's... Or did the same thing happen with women? No. So I never really worked with any women in my coaching environment, which is a sad thing. And things thankfully have changed a little bit, but there still isn't enough women in leadership roles or in coaching roles in sport in general across the board.

10:27And we know that. And I had different needs and requirements. And rather than being supported at times, I was kind of forced into a shape and a way of behaving that wasn't me, which felt uncomfortable, which then made me vulnerable. and I think the vulnerability in myself led me to want to please people as a means to kind of get the support back and get them on side. I want them on my side. I want someone furiously on my side, in my corner. And was that your mum? Would she have been the person? Well, actually, interestingly, it's something that I've thought about a lot since my brother passed away and I obviously lost my father last year as well and they were the two men in my life who really avidly would support me to the ends of the earth with whatever ridiculous challenge I want to take on.

11:11And they would believe in me. They were, you know, vocal, avid supporters of me. And I'm very privileged to have had them in my life and to give them to have given me that, I guess, inner voice that said, prove them wrong. You can do it. When the whole world seemed to feel like it was conspiring against, you shouldn't be doing that. It's not for you. You're not quite right for this. And they were there for you the whole way through. and where did your mum come into the kind of balance of the family then how did my mum is the most loving nurturing sweetest woman who I aspire to be more like to be honest she is forgiving and kind and generous and I would like to I would like to be more like her if anyone else I mean she's my greatest role model to be honest and I adore her how did she express her support for you then when you were we love you no matter what right it's my mum's motto unconditional unconditional we love you no matter what did you believe her though um no no i probably didn't believe her it was nice to hear but it was hard to truly believe and absorb and when you had the first of those olympic gold medals or even your first world championship title when that medal was around your neck did it all feel worth it um did that validation did that feeling i've pleased all these people now look I think it was more like I I don't feel so much of a fraud anymore like maybe I do deserve to be here I've always been someone who lacks confidence in myself and so one was never enough two was never enough and I don't know if I'd won every world title I'd ever competed in whether it would have been enough I don't think it would have been has anything that you've done since any of the physical challenges you've taken on since given you a sense that you are enough interestingly and people ask me about what's my greatest ever sporting achievement and i would honestly say finishing fifth in the fox hunters chase at cheltenham is probably my biggest achievement and the difference between that and cycling was cycling was very predict well expected my performances were like people would like predict to the 10th of a second you can measure yeah everything everything so measured every mistake and flaw would be my would be human error to a point where you're experiencing a partnership with a the beautiful animal who is much bigger and stronger than you and you have to accept that you haven't got control you've relinquished control in many ways and you're working together and you're trying to read and be intuitive about the moment and I I I would say received much more than that experience than any cycling experience and I think also the fact that the odds were stacked right against me.

14:00People didn't expect me to be able to do that. So there was a lack of expectation. There was almost a lack of pressure to do it. So I could kind of enjoy the experience a lot more and it was a complete surprise because I didn't even know where I was going to make it to the end of that race. And yeah, it was a fantastic experience. Did you find the horse world? And in particular, I mean, you know, being a jump jockey is the ultimate, isn't it? So how did you find that world compared to the cycling world? Well, there were a few vocal, there was a few vocal opinions, shall we say, of very experienced jockeys who believed I shouldn't be doing it in the press, which was kind of, yeah, it was quite hard.

14:45but on the whole the community once I had shown my commitment and my appreciation for the sport were very welcoming and actually um when I had my uh win at Wincanton a couple of weeks before Cheltenham Festival when everyone was doubting whether I'd be ready I came into the changing room and there were some very well-known jockeys there who were sort of cheering and you know said congratulations and well done and they really accepted me at that moment and it felt incredible because I didn't expect them to. I didn't necessarily need them to, but they did. And it was nice to feel part of something new.

15:17And the horse racing community in general were, I think, they were sceptical, but I think after Cheltenham, it was different. They kind of appreciated what I put in and how impossible the task could be. You'd gone through something huge there, yeah. Was there ever any sense that that might be your next career? If I'd have been a few years younger coming to the sport, maybe, But actually, it's a lifetime of building relationships, that sport, knowing the trainers, knowing the horses, being able to read the most difficult. Because I obviously was gifted the opportunity to ride some very, very well behaved, well trained and beautiful personalities.

15:53The horses were kind and looked after me. So don't be under the illusion, I could jump on anything and make it work. Did you ever think, I found this a bit sooner? Oh, I would have loved to. In my next life, I would love to do something like that. And horses are still a big part of your life. Horses, yes. And there's still time. there's still time to go into an equestrian sport um and what i love about equestrian sport is that there's um it's first of all it's very very little reward for lots and lots of very difficult hard days um and you know people in the question sport expect very little because you can't guarantee anything it's a it's a gamble from start to finish whether that's the breeding the training anything you don't know the horse can't tell you that morning whatever the horse is feeling yeah um and i think when there's success it's really celebrated because it's so special and unique and also people can i mean i always think about nick skelton at the olympics winning his first gold medal and he's 56 yeah there's still time for people to take up equestrian sports well it is also men and women competing exactly love that and it does feel because my daughter's show jumps so it always feels to me whenever i go to shows as well exactly what you say there the appreciation that that day that horse you know could either be waking up thinking it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and gives you everything or wakes up with a little niggle or a tummy grumble side of the stable yeah and and nothing you've done with that horse before seems to have played into anything that's going on that day and everybody knows that yeah there's no sense of shame if that happens i love that that's exactly that that describes it perfectly i love i absolutely love that element of it yeah there's a there's a real camaraderie in that respect that's not to say they're not competitive people and they're really competitive and you know the stakes are very high often and to have the nerve to you know like the the olympic uh team show jumping final you know the nerve that's needed for the final jumper who knows that gold is on the line you know it's it's an amazing amazing sport to to kind of watch and be be around well i headed to in paris to go and watch a bit of the show jumping yeah the palace of a side wasn't it it's beautiful lois and kenny went and i was very jealous i was i was stuck in the athletic state Not stuck, I loved it.

18:05But I was at Eddick Stadium and they were in this gorgeous venue. So hot, beautiful. Yeah, they are very different, aren't they? The horsey people, I imagine, the cycling people that you were used to kind of being with. You must have seen loads of different sporting setups, though, in your life and thought, I wonder if I... Because I think you could have probably turned your hand to quite a few different things. Yeah, I think... I mean, there is nothing I probably wouldn't try. Given half the chance, I'd give it a go. I really would. I mean, I would love to have been a track and fielder. oh that would be amazing because i think there's there's the purity of it like just being an incredible runner yeah just wow even and also just some of the even when you're watching things like the high jump and you you go and measure that height out with a tape measure and just be like how it's so remarkable i always thought that about jess because she's kind of a world-class high jumper for somebody who's so tiny and at height compared to even a lot of the other heptathletes like how do you get over that and even the decathletes they're huge they're throwing discus and they're pole vaulting and then they're flinging themselves over heights that aren't that far away from the the kind of pure high jumpers yeah no i love it yeah it is a it's a great sport it's a great sport um so we get to a stage where you you've trying all these different things out and you're kind of like, you know, finding yourself, I imagine.

19:27When did the idea come that a lot of your life might have been kind of achieved through finding fear, facing it and moving on through it? I think more than anything, it comes down to it was my survival mechanism. Like if I hadn't have been able to manage my fear or find a way to work through it, I would never have got anywhere. because even like learning to race bicycles, I didn't necessarily go, Dad, I really want to start doing this. It was like inevitable. You can get a racing license now and now you are racing. And it was scary. And I used to feel really intimidated because, you know, we started racing at nine.

20:07The age range goes up to 16 before you move into the adults category. There wasn't really. So I'd have to race with a lot bigger kids for many, many years. Nine to 16 were all racing together. Sometimes they put on special races for my brother and I because we were so little and there weren't enough sometimes, which was kind of weird. And then at 16, you're racing with fully grown men. That's it. So kind of having to sort of get your head round. Were you scared? Yes. Yeah, often, often. And how did you conquer that then? I'm not even entirely sure. I think what I did is pure survival got me through it at the beginning.

20:48And I used to worry a lot about everything. And actually, I realise now that I probably learnt to manage a lot of worry and concern very quietly and internally and tried not to display it for a long time. Because that would give your rivals some kind of feel? Well, no, because I was trying to convince myself I was okay, quite frankly, I think, more than anything. It's like, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this. um I used to be get so nervous about the smallest most insignificant race because I was putting myself on the line um in front of people and I you know I'm someone who'd rather just be ignored at the back of the classroom like don't look at me I don't want to be on stage um so it was it was just to start with just survival mechanism and um I'd honestly I don't even know as a kid how I did it because he's just oh my gosh going to races just worrying and was your brother because he was so my brother my brother is one of the reasons I think I probably got through it was because he's just a bit more he was more like relaxed about the whole thing I doesn't matter whatever it'll be will be was he relaxed about you getting very good yeah when my brother was we were like yin and yang I'm like highly strong like oh my god and he's like oh do some revision tomorrow maybe maybe not maybe I'll play football I don't know so he was really someone I think my brother was always someone who knew what he wanted to do was happy with that didn't make excuses wasn't a massive people pleaser like in many ways he got the a much more balanced and better kind of approach and characteristic I think did he ever say to because as twins I mean you know you were each other's constant in the world.

22:34So did he ever say to you, Victoria, just, you know, chill out. Oh, yeah. I mean, he'd be like, you can give up if you want to. You know, don't worry about it. You'll find something else to do. Like, that's how he felt. And you would say to him, you've got to take this a bit more seriously. No, I think I never told him to take it seriously. I just wished I could be a bit more like him, I think, in many ways. I have the confidence to be like, no, actually, this is what I choose and this is what I do not choose. so I mean he decided to give up cycling age 16 because he's like I don't want to start training that hard I don't want to race with the men and he was just as pleased for you which is amazing there's no bitterness in this never ever ever ever has my brother been bitter he can't understand how I did it or why I did it in many ways it's too stressful why did you put yourself through that but obviously my biggest supporter he'd support me more than I met him can you talk about him as if he's still around I know I can't talk about him in past tense yet either yeah it's and is he with you do you feel oh I think so I don't think I it's really strange because he's because he's such a big part of my life experience up till 42 I don't think I can I don't know if I can actually talk about him in past tense yet which is I don't know whether will I be in time but I still feel like he's here in many ways and I still out loud will say like I miss you and I wish you could experience this and things like that um yeah all the time all the time I think being a twin I think it's really it's difficult because he was also one of my best friends in the whole wide world because we've been through exactly the same thing we had the same lived experience in many ways um yeah it's difficult oh what I do for one more day with him yeah dealing with loss and a loss like that I think it it puts a lot of things in life in perspective 100 and I think a lot of people fear death and they fear losing somebody that close it's an exceptionally hard thing to have to go through but I imagine for you now and especially in light of what you've written in this this book you know you're coming through the other side and you can live a life where you can smile.

24:51That's it. And you can love. I mean, I...

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26:14to challenge myself like to have someone by my side because when I was nervous going to these races as a nine ten year old and Alex was there too so there was always someone to my left right that I could look at and he would you know be like it's fine don't worry about it so I had that reassuring kind of constant and and I'm very very lucky from that lucky for that and also the fact that having a twin brother kind of made me see see myself like I didn't want to see the difference between being male and female either because I didn't feel like I can Alex and I are the same we can do anything he can do I can do like in terms of sport and ambition I couldn't necessarily see any significant reasons why I shouldn't be able to do anything else um so he gave me so much and that's what encouraged me to explore the topic of fear in the book like he allowed me he gave me a sense of courage in many ways and also the fact that in losing him and reflecting on a lot of this and how he how his life had had impacted mine I wanted to do something really positive and really kind of express my lived experience in a positive way and in a way that perhaps would help and support other people knowing that life is so short and precious more than ever now and the fact that in this limited time we have on this earth and we don't know what's around the corner that we don't want to hinder ourselves from experiencing maybe the next great inoculating ourselves yes an extreme of emotions.

27:59That's it. So I'm trying to view the world as opportunity and I'm grateful for Alex for allowing me to sort of be that way. Do you think as well people, social media, plays into kind of delivering fear to people kind of in the palm of their hand? We're living in terrifying times right now and I wish I could provide an antidote for that because genuinely the news we're receiving through all channels is terrifying. Now, I can't fix that. I wish I could. I wish I could. But in terms of our own personal human fear that we perhaps implicated, whether that's through learned experience, through culturally, socially, all these elements, whether we can eliminate some of those smaller fears, reframe them in many ways in order to allow ourselves to access as much opportunity and positivity as we can.

28:58Now, yeah, it's tricky because I wrote this book about fear and then it's probably been the most fearful time that I've experienced in my life right now. There's a lot. There's a lot going on. So hopefully I can provide a little bit of hope. And of course, through the book, you help people manage, you know, kind of a way of learning to counter their fears. and you describe doing something, tiny things. Tiny little things that push you. That challenge and push people. Because a lot of people listening might be thinking, well, it's okay for you. You've been a jump jockey. You've ridden around a velodrome.

29:33These are all really scary things. You know you can do scary stuff. You went on SAS Who Does Wins, you know, and you attempted an ascent on Everest. These are all like the kind of at the edges. They're the extremes. At the extremes, yeah. But for a lot of people, even the idea of running a 5k would fill them with fear so so if somebody is kind of almost immobilized themselves from thinking that anything you know is possible where do they start well it's interesting because i always think that fear is very personal it's very individual i mean i might want to climb a mountain or do something crazy like that whereas the idea for me something fearful would be like in a room of 14 year olds trying to teach them something that would terrify me i would like I wouldn't know where to start.

30:16Reading out loud is also something that I really struggle with, which I've had to push through doing the audio book, to be honest. That was a struggle. So everybody's fears are very relative and personal to their experiences, but they can be kind of approached and treated in very similar ways in terms of breaking it down, like forcing yourself to be a little bit uncomfortable, the whole idea of like fear or stress inoculation and trying to just basically, It's just a perspective change because one of the things I talk about in the book a lot about in the difference between fear and excitement in terms of the way we feel, the somatic feelings that we have are very, very similar.

30:54And the movement of the dial between how we feel when we're excited about something and how we feel when we're afraid of something is very, very close. And it's only a change of mindset that could easily tip the dial the other way, which I think is really fascinating. so it's about understanding why you're why you have a fear and maybe trying to sort of untangle that a little bit and be a little bit more curious towards it or set yourself small tasks and commit to sort of overcoming it bit by bit and not seeing it as an absolute barrier that restricts what you are what's available to you and then recognizing the great feelings that come when you do attack your fears propels you forwards to the next time doesn't it is and it's it's very transferable i think it's very transferable skills you might think well in building confidence in one area of your life or connection in one area of your life can definitely transfer to somewhere else in your life um so difficult conversation like taking up a new sport with a new team of people for example i don't know something you've always wanted to try join a local club and you push yourself and then having a difficult conversation with a work colleague or asking for a promotion like the building the confidence in one area is very likely to make me well I can do that well why can't I do this conversation that's tough if I can go through this training session or I can start this you know put myself on stage in front of people and do this why can't I do that so it's a kind of like building up a resilience or a tolerance towards being uncomfortable and believing that you'll get through the other side and in every tiny success then you kind of recognize it and use it and hold it and apply it to the next situation do you think with your knowledge now of your own career and writing the book and discussing it now do you think that it's a common theme with sports people that actually they don't even realize it as kids but they are able to kind of overcome those fears innately and there's something inside them that that just gets on is it is it possible to be a really successful sports person and not i think you have to be pretty brave yeah i think to be a sports person in at any level um you have to be brave you have to be willing to put yourself out there you have to be willing to put yourself on the start line uh or sign yourself up or be on the start list you have to you have to do it um and there's no escaping a feeling of nervousness when you're trying to do your best and i think when there's a crowd of course of course if you if you can't recognize that there's people there who want to see what you're capable of and it's there's always going to be a sense of fear I think and it's a roll of a dice like we can all we can all easily step up and do things we know we can do but you don't know if there's going to be somebody better than you on the day who's going to beat you you don't know or how are you going to cope with with a change exactly how you're going to adapt to it whether you're going to have the agility to work with what comes your way you don't know how you could be distracted in a moment or unfocus lose focus for a split second you can't necessarily control that and you have to accept you're human so it's tricky it's tricky but I think you have to be brave to be a sports person you have to have courage yeah and and maybe that also feeds into where a lot of sports people struggle at the end and I talked about you throwing yourself into various challenges and not all sports people get that chance you know and they and there are a lot of I mean I know particularly in rugby there's a lot of help with ex you know rugby players who struggle to kind of get into real it's a bit like the military isn't it that that kind of experience of almost decompressing and working out where you're going to get that sense of purpose that overcoming challenges brings you so I guess it's if the ones who are the kind of the lucky ones if you like are those who are very very famous and could do loads and loads of different things there's just there's a lot of you must have seen it with some of your former teammates.

34:50Yes it is interesting because I am by far like not and not I know we're near the most successful cyclist on the team or female cyclist in fact on the team and I am far far from far away from that but I've also said yes to a lot of wild things which many may say no, may have said no. So I feel like I'm very open to opportunity. Like when the idea of becoming a jump jockey came my way, I had no background in horse riding. I'd never ridden a horse before. Everybody I spoke to who knew anything about horses was like, don't do it. This is a terrible idea. But I personally thought, you know what? I've always wanted to ride a horse.

35:33This could be a great way to learn. So I'm going to give it a go for two weeks and then decide whether I'm going to take on this challenge. and I went into it very open-minded despite everyone being like terrible terrible idea and in my mind it's because I was like right so I'm still physically fit I'm probably the right build I know I can deal with speed it's about the same speed on a horse as it is on a velodrome I've got good lateral balance quite good under pressure I love animals I was like I love learning I didn't think so many reasons why I should do it. So I did it. And I think there's a lot of people who may have thought, no.

36:15They might have done the list of why not to do it first. And then thought, well, that's too dangerous. I can't do that. I'm not made out, cut out for this. This isn't my sport. I've already had my success somewhere. So I think I've also been quite open to new opportunities in general. And probably some of the things that I've accepted over the years, even from the point of interviews and photo shoots, Maybe a little bit naive at times, but always very kind of willing to give it a go. And do you think you've talked about your mental health challenges? Do you think those experiences help you? Yeah, I think I actually think that some of the difficulties and some of the struggles I've had and, you know, when I've experienced, you know, some of my darkest times, depression and whatnot.

37:07I think in many ways that's given me, in order to manage those, it's given me an opportunity to learn new skills and also know myself better, to recognise other people suffering better, which is also, you know, helpful, but also has allowed me to deal with perhaps more difficult situations like grief in many ways, like managing my own emotions and being okay to sort of do the hard stuff, to build myself to be better and stronger and more understanding and kinder and all those things when, you know, I've always been very hard on myself. Has talking therapy been? 100%. People, the counsellors that I worked with when I was struggling were brilliant.

37:49I had two ladies that I spoke to. I didn't need to see them both, but I liked, they had both slightly different outlooks and they both helped me so much. I'm very appreciative of that, but that was probably the most important thing. And did you think when you look back, did your cycling and the pressure you put on yourself, did that exacerbate perhaps a latent propensity to have depression or was it the way around? I think I've always, it's always been there in me. Like I've always been someone who struggles sometimes in terms of my moods generally quite low and I'm very pessimistic. I have a lot of negative self-talk and things that I need to address and needed to understand better in order to thrive.

38:34And Steve Peters helped me with a lot of that. He's been on the podcast. Yeah. He's such an amazing man. He really helped me unpick and provided me with tools to help me in lots of different ways. Was that the first time you'd really spoken to somebody, was Steve? Yeah, well, Steve knew I was just treating myself so badly. With some of the ways I would talk, how I would view things, the pressure I'd put on myself, the language I would use about myself, he really was like, you need to just stop beating yourself up. We need to unpick some of this and work out where it's coming from, because it's not you're holding yourself up and back rather than allowing yourself to be successful right here.

39:14And it wasn't until he gave me a better understanding of managing my own, let's say, the facets of my own mental kind of... Just the way you were made up. Yeah, I guess so, yeah. Just how I approach things, the processes. You've talked about your dad using cycling for his mental health as well. Yeah. So do you think, do you recognise... Oh, yeah. His self-taught, maybe. I may, like, definitely. My dad definitely struggled. He was very hard on himself as well. And, yeah, I think I recognise that more now. And, of course, he was a man of a certain generation. Yes, didn't talk about his feelings too much.

39:57No, no, no, no. He didn't have a Steve Peters. And he definitely didn't have a Steve Peters, and Steve Peters would have worked wonders with him, I'm sure. I'm very lucky and very, I feel very privileged to have had someone like Uncle Steve come into my life at such a pivotal moment. Because if I hadn't have met Uncle Steve, I don't think I would have gone on to win a gold medal. Really? He was that important? Yeah. I was, honestly, I was hindering myself with how hard I was on myself. In an environment where I felt everyone was hard on me as well, and it was just too much to carry. The load was just too much.

40:30There's been kind of a lot of female success in the British cycling team. Yes. beyond 2012 into 2016 and 2020. And it looks like a place now that has a more female kind of prism and perspective. Well, they have a female sprint squad. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I've met some of the girls in training and been back to see how the team operates, like prior to Paris, actually. And it was brilliant to see such a dramatic change in the environment and that they were being encouraged to study alongside the sport to sort of allow them to live like human experiences. Exactly. You're allowed to read books. Okay.

41:11And it was so good to see. And I felt like so pleased and so happy and also kind of also slightly envious. I was like, oh, how good would it be to be in this team right now, to be part of this system right now? But then again, I 100 % wouldn't change a thing because someone had to go through it first and find the flaws, quite frankly. And if that was me, I'll take the role. And it's so good to see the women being successful. And Emma Finucane, I just, you know, just so nice to see her having some of that success on the team and the women's sprint squad being seen as a stronger element of the team.

41:47And we always felt, I always felt, like the afterthought. You know, not really recognised. It's so good to see. Yeah, you went through a lot, but it's more gratifying to know that that helped to kind of create cultural change. I mean, there are a lot of women that went through the team whose names were forgotten or perhaps maybe clouded with quite negative language, shall I say. But it's so good now to see a strong female contingent who are really having the success they deserve. And I would love to see them all win so many world championship titles and gold medals, loads and loads and loads and loads.

42:25I really do. You don't seem at all kind of territorial about that kind of position that you held. Oh, the thing is, I did what I could and I gave it a pretty good shot. And actually looking back, I didn't even believe I was good enough to ever be world champion, let alone Olympic champion, more than once. So I am satisfied and very grateful for that. And they weren't ready for me. And I recognize that now. I realize the team was not ready for me to do it in the way that I did it. That is with my heart on my sleeve as a woman in elite sport. if there was a young girl you know asking your advice who's like eight or nine years old wanting to go into cycling is it somewhere that you would encourage them now I would definitely yeah and that they would flourish and grow yes I think so and I think there's so much more in like understanding that if someone is happy and settled and feeling confident in themselves they're going to create great performances you don't need to bully them or push them or push them into a mold in order to create success I think it would happen if someone's made to feel valuable and um you know respected when you we've talked about Alex and he's you know very much for you still kind of in the present did what you learned about grief help you at all with your dad passing was a completely different experience it definitely helped me because I'd read a lot of books when Alex was diagnosed well he's given his prognosis um I read to try and sort of get my head around it um and that definitely prepared me moving forward um but in a very different situation my dad was in a place of absolute suffering so it was a it was merciful you know in many ways that he is now at peace because he was such a physical you know he cycling was a big part of his existence and he would go cycling every day and when he couldn't do that anymore he didn't have the ability to do that i knew that his heart would be breaking if he was aware of it it would have been breaking but he actually had he had Parkinson's and dementia yeah so he wasn't he wasn't aware that he wasn't cycling but you know when if he could look at it look at himself and he was immobile and I was just like this would break his heart it would absolutely break his heart um and yeah it yeah it was it was it was difficult to see but I'm glad that I got to to be there right at the very end as well I'd be there with him and did did he did you get to a stage in your relationship where he and I've read the things you've said about how you know you just couldn't have done it without him no did he know that yeah well um actually at one occasion when I went to visit him last summer he um he started telling me about his daughter who was who had been really successful at cycling and apparently I look quite like her and he was immensely proud and it was very touching and it was very um I mean because it was difficult because we'd lost that he didn't necessarily recognize me all the time but he he still was in a place where he recognized how proud he was and he wanted to tell people about me so he was so he's telling me he was telling me about how proud he was of his daughter and it was yeah it was very touching um and a really sort of special moment to experience in many ways yeah oh i'm so sorry for your loss and uh and imagine you know that your success must have given him he always said how proud he was so much joy it's both a sport that he absolutely loved as well and he seemed like a real uh community person you know he gave a lot back didn't he to the sport he got a lot of um young riders their first bikes to get cycling and he was always very encouraging like if someone needed a bike he would find like find one somewhere to get for them if they didn't couldn't afford it or arrange races and just give people words of encouragement he he couldn't do enough to help people kickstart their career would you like a formal or a more kind of a regular role in terms of mentoring and encouraging young sports people?

46:15I would definitely like to mentor. I wouldn't want to coach. I don't think that's for me. I think because I'm probably too soft, too kind. You don't want to do it? Okay. No, okay. Today we stop. Let's have a day off. Today we have cake. Yeah, exactly. Let's have cake. I don't think I could do that. And I don't think I would. Oh, maybe I would. Who knows? Because it's when you when you look in from the outside, I think it's an incredibly stressful arena, like looking down at the velodrome i'm like when you know that i don't have to be down there anymore um but i really enjoy speaking helping or mentoring young athletes or you know do you actually get on the bike so no i don't well not much i'm a bit of a fair weather cyclist to be honest i don't really want to wash my bike down afterwards i'm more of a runner these days i like running yeah and i can Have you done London?

47:09No, I haven't. Is that on the agenda? I'm more of a cross-country runner, I'd say. But you can do your 26-mile training across cross-country and then get yourself onto the roads. You would love it, honestly. Oh, I don't know, I don't know. I think I'd rather run that by myself, alone somewhere. That's what I'd rather do. I think the whole thing of London is the people. I know, I know, I know. I think I'd rather run by myself in the countryside, listening to techno. That's what I'd like to do. Do you know what it is about London, though? It's so uplifting, and it gives you such a kind of, you know, especially as you alluded to in these particularly worrying and difficult times that we're living in, the London Marathon gives you hope and humanity because you just look around and realise...

47:48Everyone's cheering everyone on. There are such great people doing amazing things, you know, and they're not physically predisposed to run quick marathons, but they're putting their bodies on the line for, you know, their causes and the people that... Yeah, it is a really uplifting day. It's a real kind of antidote to what's happening. I love to be like a ferocious supporter from the sidelines. That's where I'm at. You've got an honorary military role, haven't you? Yes, I'm an honorary colonel in the Royal Marines. Okay, what does that mean? Do you have a beret? Yes, I haven't put it on my head yet out of respect.

48:21Okay. Well, what do you mean? Well, no, because obviously you have to earn a green beret. Right, yeah. So you've never put it on your head then because you're not telling us right here, right now you're going to the Marines, are you? No, no, I'm too old and I'm too light, unfortunately. Unfortunately, but I have done three out of the four commando tests so far, and I plan to do all four of them. Wow. And then you might pop it on. And then I might do quietly if I have to, only for protocol. So only because I have to, and that's part of the... Did this come after SAS Who Does? It did, yes. Yes. So they asked me to be, I think it was, I'm the first, but apparently, I'm hoping soon there'll be more, the first ever female to be asked to be an honorary colonel.

48:59So working out the uniform was a struggle. And did that show give you a real appreciation of the military? Yes, I love it. I actually think that I would have been well suited to being part of the military. Like, I thoroughly enjoy that. I have a lot of, now I've got, I know a lot of people who are either in the show or have had military careers. And I was like, yes, I definitely think that would have been something that would have suited me. Well, in another era, pre-lottery, you might have been. I might have. You look at Dame Kelly Holmes. Yes. She kind of had to go into the military almost to keep her athletics going, didn't she?

49:32So a lot of sports people used to do that to compete. I'm totally... 20 years before. I understand that. And the only difference is now I could still be working if I was in the military. I'd still have a job and a role. Well, you kind of have a job, but it's just a bit different, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. Do you miss the structure? Yeah, I do miss the structure. I'm quite disciplined anyway in the way I live and exist in my life. I mean I like to keep fit and I like the training and I like a new training challenge and I'm lucky that you know having my little gym at home and I live in a beautiful environment where running cross-country is just beautiful.

50:08But the structure of being someone because I think that institutionalized nature of sport yeah it can take a bit of time can't it to break free. I mean, yeah, I mean, I do like to. I do like to be disciplined in the way I do things, but it's and I don't think that will ever change. I have managed to I have relinquished a lot of control. I mean, riding horses help me do that immensely because obviously you have to relinquish control because you're never really in control of 600 kg. You're just trying to have like a little bit of connection and yeah. Animals, I think, are also vital, aren't they?

50:44Yeah, humbling. Like, that's definitely, I feel like having, being introduced to racing and having horses in my life has definitely given me a tribe in which to associate and structure and kind of purpose in many ways. And I'm grateful for it. Well, it's been wonderful to chat. And the book is definitely a must, I think, for everyone who wants to just push themselves a little bit outside of that comfort zone. We talk about it a lot. I don't know, you know, on those kind of high performance podcasts and all that kind of thing, you talk about not being in the comfy chair. But I think it's very easy when you get to midlife to feel, oh, I'm comfortable, you know, and this is this is the way it is.

51:19But actually, it's it's vital at that point to keep thinking even more about how to push yourself. Well, I'm quite happy to be in a perpetual midlife crisis to the very end, quite frankly. If it benefits all of us with the books, then keep going. Why not? Why not? And we enjoy seeing you. Having a lovely time. And seeing you take on the challenges. Thank you so much and much success with the book. Thank you very much.