Anthony Scaramucci: Trump and the Humiliation That Made Him Famous

25:36I mean, I had a crisis PR person, God bless the guy. He told me, look, go buy a villa in Tuscany and come back to the United States in 2022. You're never going to be able to rebuild your career or your media reputation. And, you know, you probably should go dark for five years. But, you know, in life, when you make mistakes and you're an entrepreneur and you take risks like that, you got to face the music. And I did that. So, yes, I do have a podcast business and I do have things like that, but I paid the price. for those things. Yeah, it was very public and I can see that there was a really humiliating aspect to it.

26:12You know, I am so glad that you brought up the word humiliating because I thought you were going to be a little bit too British and not bring up that word. But it was humiliating. I like the way you say it better because you have a nicer accent than me, but it was humiliating. But wasn't it Donald Trump also once told you that bad publicity is still publicity and that negative press stories still have their value because you have, look, you've got your own business now. You've done your homework. He has said that. He's repeatedly said that. I mean, does it help you be the front man and get attraction for your firm?

26:49I think it hurts. Your name is really well known. I think it hurts and helps. My 34-year-old son who went to Stanford Business School says to me, Dad, you're killing me. You're killing my networking opportunities. I said, why? He goes, well, the Republicans hate you because you were once with Trump and you left Trump. He goes, the Democrats, forget it. They hate you because you were once with Trump. He goes, you've got me in like networking purgatory. So it helps and it hurts. It's a little bit of both. You're going to get some people and you're going to lose some people. And that's life. I'm not worried about that aspect of it.

27:33We buy insurance for peace of mind, but every year millions of claims are denied. Not because people did anything wrong, but because their policies quietly excluded what happened. Insurers know every detail. Policyholders rarely do. That's why My Policy Advocate exists. For just 27 cents a day, their platform reads your policies and explains where you are vulnerable. They don't sell insurance, they deliver transparency. Before you trust your policy to protect you, let My Policy Advocate tell you what it really says. Go to mypolicyadvocate.com. So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises.

28:09So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300 ,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94 % of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off. Deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM. Support for the show comes from Public. Public is an investing platform that offers access to stocks, options, bonds, and crypto. And they've also integrated AI with tools that can assist investors in building customized portfolios.

28:47One of these tools is called Generated Assets. It allows you to turn your ideas into investable indexes. So let's say you're interested in something specific like biotech companies with high R &D spend, small cap stocks with improving operating margins, or the S &P 500 minus high debt companies. Chances are there isn't an ETF that fits your exact criteria. But on public, you just type in a prompt and their AI screens thousands of stocks and build a one-of-a-kind index. You can even backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Go to public.com slash market and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio.

29:26That's public.com slash market.

30:00is the other really hard moment that you've had which is possibly comparable over your association with sam bankman freed who's now been sentenced over his defrauding of investors and customers in his cryptocurrency business, because you believed in him. You were business partners, you were close to him. And then there was a massive fallout on you and your firm from his downfall. Yeah. I mean, and there were some nasty articles written on Bloomberg, frankly. And by the way, I'm a free speech absolutist. And so those reporters had the right to write those articles and they're allowed to write whatever they want to write.

30:42If you're a public figure, you have to be a big person and you have to accept the criticism and the potential praise of what's going on. But, you know, the one problem when you're a high profile person, however, your failures go around the world in five seconds, okay, before you can tie your shoelaces, okay? Your successes are generally understated and that's fine, but those are two, to me, colossal failures in my career. You know, miss sizing, not understanding Trump appropriately. I've well explained that and I'm happy to continue to explain it. Sam Bacon-Fruit is a different story. Sam had 25 investors that had given him approximately 1 billion US dollars to fund FTX.

31:27And these were sovereign, I'm not going to name them because they always get mad at me when I actually name the names, but these were sovereign wealth funds, venture capitalists, billionaire investors, billionaire family offices. And I had a rapport with Sam and I had a rapport with Sam's mom and dad who were Stanford Law School professors who knew some of the faculty at Harvard Law School that taught me. And so I felt I had a Koretsu or a connection into the family. And while Sam was somewhat odd, I thought he was brilliant. And I'm gonna say something that makes me look bad. I thought he was ethical, a little odd, but ethical.

32:08And I thought his father, who was a tax attorney, and his mother who taught ethics at Stanford Law School, I made false assumptions. And so, but remember, he gave me the money. I didn't give him the money. He bought a stake in your firm. Yeah, he did. He came to our conference. He liked our business. He liked our crypto exposure. And you talked about him as the next J.P. Morgan or the J.P. Morgan of the modern age. I think I said to Bloomberg, I thought because he was bailing out at the time. If you remember what happened in the crisis of 1907, John Pierpont Morgan, before the establishment of the Federal Reserve, stepped in and cleared a lot of credit that was potentially defaulting in the panic of 1907.

32:51And so we were having that sort of crisis in 2022 and Sam had positioned himself that way. So yes, I did say that. You know, the great irony now, Sam's investment portfolio, he filed for bankruptcy. It was a$17 billion company when the company collapsed. His investment portfolio, his balance sheet today is worth$114 billion, meaning if they had just kept the balance sheet together. But the reason why he didn't get a retrial is that he broke the law. He moved customer accounts from one place into another place, his own account, which was wholly and totally inappropriate. But again, imagine the situation for me.

33:34I'm making an announcement that Sam's buying a piece of my business in September. And I'm talking about the strategic collaboration. Eight weeks later, I've got to go down to the Bahamas and visit with him and his father and realize that he's committed fraud. And I've got to go face the music again. So I have to go back on television and say, yeah, I think this guy, he's entitled to a trial and he's innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. But I think he's done some really bad things here. I think he's a bad actor. That's a painful thing to do. The thing that surprises me is that after the shock of that moment, and it's a business shock and it's a personal shock because you thought you knew the man, you still today have a high percentage of your personal wealth and your business wrapped up in digital assets, including particularly Bitcoin.

34:26And there has been this significant tumble from the tail end of last year to February in the value of that. So do you not think that you are too... You like Bitcoin or you don't like Bitcoin? Well, I mean, I'm not an expert, but I find it interesting that you are... Do you own any Bitcoin? I don't. Well, this is... You've written a whole book on it, but you obviously own a lot of Bitcoin. And I... Is there any point where you thought too much of my personal wealth is tied up in this. Well, you'll have to invite me back in five years. I'll have to make a determination if I'm right or wrong. But I made a decision in October, November of 2020 that we were going to flip a portion of our assets into digital assets.

35:04A big piece of it was going to be in Bitcoin. We were buying those coins at 15, 16, 17 ,000. They went to 69 ,000 by November of 2021. We look like geniuses. and then they collapsed with the FTX crisis and went back to 15 ,000. So depending on the point that you're in, you either look like a genius or a dummy. But I mean, I bought these coins at 16 ,000. They're trading at about$78 ,000 today. And you could say to me, well, you know, they were once trading at 126, so you're a dummy once again. But again, I don't want to judge it that way. I want to judge it over a five or 10 year period of time.

35:42I think this is a transformative technology. So yeah, I own it. And Sam didn't dissuade me, even though he caused, alongside of a huge deleveraging in the market, he caused a crash in Bitcoin. Bitcoin rallied back. I think the United States will get the legislation and the regulation right. And I think Bitcoin will be part of our long-term asset allocation structure in the United States. So to you, it's not a risk, it's the future. And it's a future that you're invested in. I think it's the future. I think you have to take the time to understand it. People that are my age, I'm 62. If you're my age or older, you either don't have the patience for it or you think it's a cryptograph that's absolutely worthless.

36:28I was on the Bill Maher show with my old boss, Lloyd Blankfein, who'd be a great guest on your show, by the way. And he had just written a new book and Bill Maher and Lloyd Blankfein, combined age of like 160, hate Bitcoin. and they're sitting there laying into me over Bitcoin. And I said the same thing to them that I'll say to you, do the homework. When you're done doing the homework, let's then have the real conversation. So you know who's doing the homework? The 30-year-olds, the 40-year-olds. And you know where they're gonna be in 10 years? They're gonna be in positions of power in the asset management business.

37:05And so let's see if I'm right. Can I take you right back to the way you grew up? Because I was really struck reading your book, not the Bitcoin book, From Wall Street to the White House and Back, where you write about coming home in 1974 and hearing your parents argue about money and then starting a paper round. You're only 10 years old. I was 11. 10, 11 years old. And essentially how hard you worked, how you persuaded houses that they could do with an extra paper a week, not just the one paper a week they were getting. It was an easy route because these were all like blue-collar row houses and blue-collar apartments.

37:44Yeah. It was easy to go up and down the steps and knock on the doors and guilt all of these women. But tell me what was driving you at that time. Was it a vulnerability seeing your parents vulnerable or was it a real desire to lead a different life from your parents? Well, I think it was both. I started my paper route in February of 1975. I had it until the end of 1977. And I created in that area, one of the larger residential paper routes, because what I did was I went to my boss, Mr. Fusco, who's passed, unfortunately, was an awesome guy. And I said, I need 30 free papers every Wednesday. And he's like, what do you need them for?

38:22I said, I'm going to go up and down these apartments. I've got to ring doorbells. And I'm going to ask, you know, the Mrs. Sheridans and the Mrs. McGillicuddy's and the Mrs. Ampolis to subscribe to Newsday. And so I used to drop off a free paper. And the next day I'd ring the doorbell. I said, did you enjoy the paper? And I had everybody's name. And I had like a checkmark of who I collected from. I used to collect on Fridays. And Mrs. Sheridan from Sheridan Electric was the best tipper. And I will always remember her fondly. It was$1.40, okay, to have a daily and Sunday in 1976. And when I used to ring the doorbell on a Friday, she'd give me a$5 bill.

39:02And I was the happiest, happiest camper. And which is another reason why I always try to tip everybody really well when I'm in a restaurant or in a hotel. Because you remember what it's like to be where it makes all the difference. And I gave the money to my mother. You know, I mean, I was probably making$50,$60 a week. Kept$15 for myself and gave it to my mom and dad. There's another part of your book which was really sad to read, which is the, you know, you're widely known as the Mooch. But tell me about how you first got that nickname, who first called you that. Why is that sad to read? It's sad to read because there's racism in it.

39:37You write in the book that it's your, one of your teachers in school who doesn't like the ethnic sounding names. He doesn't like the Italians. He doesn't like the Irish. He didn't like the Polish either. I mean, he decided that if you had a four syllable last name, that was like a little bit too long for him. And so he took one of the syllables of your name and that's what he calls you by. And, but you know, listen, that's life. But you didn't like it at the time, did you? At the time, I didn't know, but I was nine years old. You then own it and use it and credit to you for doing that. I was nine years old.

40:11So it wasn't like, did I like it or did I dislike it? It was a different era of life. I just bring up the point that like when people were like when I came on the stage at the White House press room and I gave the press conference oh he's the Mooch and they were saying it derisively I'm like dude I've been called the Mooch since 1972 it's not bothering me you got to find something else to bother me because that one is not going to bother me so but he gave me that name but there were worse names than that one trust me that he was giving out to people but here's the thing you can't be a baby and you can't play a victim in life You're going to go work for Donald Trump.

40:47You're going to go work in presidential politics and you get blown out like that. You can't be a baby. It's like me being an American football player and playing in the NFL and saying that, okay, I'm upset now that I got a concussion. Well, guess what? Everybody gets a concussion. So, I mean, that was life in the 1970s on Long Island. I'm not complaining about it. I'm just explaining what happened. And the kinds of people who you grew up with, communities which are still like that today, into which MAGA very successfully reached. What do you think is going to happen in the next election? Because we've already talked about the midterms, but let's look at the next election.

41:24Do you think the Democrats can win them back? They don't have the right leadership right now to win them back. I mean, the best thing that the Republicans have going for them are the Democrats. You don't see a single potential credible nominee? Remember, the reaction formation to that story in my book is to make sure that there's a female candidate to be president or to make sure, or Vice President Harris, who I voted for, and I helped her on her campaign debate prep. She writes in her book, 107 Days, she didn't pick Beat Buttigieg because he was gay. She wrote it. And so we got to stop doing all of that.

41:59In other words, we have to stop over-correcting for the racism. And then we have to stop over, like doing the identity, gender, sexual orientation. Let's pick the best communicator? Is that your best athletes, best communicators, policymakers, who can build a consensus, who can delegate? You know, there's 5 ,000 people in the executive branch. We've got our decision making down to a decision maker of one now. There's one person at the State Department. That's Donald Trump. There's one person at the White House. Donald Trump. There's one person at the Pentagon. Donald Trump. So we have to get back on the playing field with something way more American and way more pluralistic.

42:41And the way to do that is put the best athletes in the game and stop trying to overcorrect and try to whitewash what happened in the past. You know, I mean, the statues are the statues. Leave them alone. That's part of our history. Let's go forward with the right ideas for the vision. But I'm optimistic. Every Democrat would say that that's exactly what they're going to do. And they haven't done that. They haven't done that. Well, I guess maybe they say it's early, like you say for the Republicans. They're in a circular firing squad. They treat Newsom like he's further to the right than Orban.

43:14If you're in AOC or Zoran Mondani's camp, you know, Newsom is Victor Orban. I mean, you got to really look at it for what it is. Cut it out, guys. Focus on the principle. Stop attacking each other and line up. You know what the Republicans do a way better job of are the Democrats? They line up, Michelle. Okay, Ted Cruz wanted to strangle Donald Trump. He lined up with them. Okay, and they all line up together. You got to learn to do that in politics. But I think you don't really like that about all of those who've lined up under Donald Trump. I don't like it because they're hurting the country.

43:52I don't like it because they're subverting the Constitution. If you told me that Donald Trump was a transformational, healing, regenerative leader who was seeking an American renewal and that was going to help reform America and make it better, then of course I like it. You got to give up something at the table for the other side. That was the nature and the existence of what the founders wanted. It wasn't let me beat you into submission and let me own you culturally in the culture war. That wasn't the goal of the whole thing. But I think you're saying - But I am optimistic, by the way. On the Democrats finding someone who can challenge the next one.

44:31I don't know who it's gonna be, but I will predict on your show that you will see a very surprising American renewal because it's a very, very young country. It doesn't have an anchored culture. It's an experiment, a multi-ethnic experiment. And what happens in the country is when we lose our generational memory, once every 80 years, we get hit very hard. But the renewal on the left or the right? I'm not sure yet. We'll have to see. It could be a Republican. You know, you could invite me back. I'll say, hey, there's a young Republican that is helping people understand where the country has to go, where there's a young Democrat.

45:11You know, Buttigieg, as an example to me, is a very formidable, incredibly talented politician. He's also served in the American military. He's an articulate man. He understands policy, okay? But he is gay and he can't get the African American community at this moment to vote for him. But maybe they will. Maybe there'll be a transformation. But he's somebody that I would look at and say, okay, that guy has the right timber and he has the right ingredients to be a really good president. But I'm telling you that we go through it. 80 years after the Revolutionary War, we had the Civil War. 80 years after that, we had the Great Depression.

45:52and that led to the second world war we're now 80 years out from that war and this country is getting dunked because we've lost our generational memory about the institutions and the processes that matter and so now we need a leader come in and explain that to the people and say we have to return to the process okay and trump is helping us do that by the way because he's so out there doing the opposite that people instinctively know that this is not right. This is why these elections are not going his way. This is why the approval ratings are way down. I think he's got a 34, 35 % approval rating.

46:32He's helping us. Trump is forcing, you know how Trump made me famous and allowed me to have a podcast? He's actually forcing the American people to have a moral and cultural reckoning with itself. And every time we've done that, we've sought redemption and renewal. And I predict that that will happen. Or the next American president, whoever they are, might well use executive power to some extent to the degree that Donald Trump has used it, because that's been normalized. And no question. And by the way, they will go after their political adversaries. You know, he's created a playbook where the next American president could use that very same playbook the way he's used it.

47:16That's why I'm not sure that the next American president will be a reaction to this rather than a following. Now we're in a pendulum, but I have faith in the country. Okay. My grandparents had an unconditional love of this country. I'm from a family of coal miners and peasant farmers and day workers, but I'm sitting here at Bloomberg talking to you. Okay. That is the American dream. That is the dream. And that is the promise of America. And so, and by the way, I'm too short to see the glass, anything other than half full. When I look at the glass, it looks full to me. Okay. So I'm going to make the bet that we're going to figure it out.

47:53The American people can smell a rotting cadaver in their basement. There's rot going on right now. They don't like the situation. They voted. Look at what's going They're going from Republican to Democrat to Republican because they want to throw all the bums out. They're upset with everybody. Both parties have negative approval ratings. So imagine if we could get somebody in there that can communicate to the people and say, okay, listen, we got to go back to the processes, okay? What Cicero said 2 ,600 years ago, we're slaves to the law in order to be free. Look at what happened to Viktor Orban.

48:32He rigged the elections. He gamed the system. He gamed the banks and he's still lost because the people can smell a rotting cadaver. Okay. And we've got to find leadership in this country that can explain that to the people. And I think we have people in the country that would respond to that. Do you keep reading the classics? Is that your choice of reading these days? I read everything. Despite this Italian exoskeleton from Long Island, I'm actually just like a bookworm. What are you reading right now? Well, I believe it or not, on the plane over here, I reread the autobiography of Ben Franklin because H.W.

49:08Brands has a book out called American Patriarch. This is a very famous historian from SMU. He's writing about George Washington's life this time. He's written about Franklin and Teddy Roosevelt and FDR, et cetera, Ronald Reagan. But this book, I think, is very well-timed because we're heading into the 250th anniversary of the country. And Washington is still seen by many Americans as cast in marble. And I think this book is definitional of Washington in terms of what Washington actually wanted for the country. There's a lot of messages in there that could resonate for today. But one of the more unique things about Washington was the relationship with Franklin.

49:49Because ultimately, he needed Franklin to go to France and sort of codify that treaty and get the help of Lafayette. And so, what am I reading right now? I just finished American Patriot by H.W. Brands, and I'm rereading Ben Franklin's autobiography because I find that Franklin is really the first mover in the self-improvement market in the United States. He is the original Horatio Alger. Does history help with the present? It's a guide. I think you have to understand that history makes you a better investor and it makes you a better thinker about the world. Anthony Scaramucci, thank you. It's such a pleasure to be with you and congratulations on your show.

50:42And that's where I thought we left the conversation. There's no dealing with Trump. He's a showman of one. But I was mistaken. Why you hated my press conference? Because the attention? He didn't like the fact that I was talking in full sentences. He hated it. Like I said, he talks a lot. All right, did that go okay, that one? Thank you so much. Pretty good, spirited conversations. In the text version of this at bloomberg.com forward slash Michelle, you'll find my notes with more detail and context ahead of the midterms in November. I hope you might find it adds even more to what you've heard. and so to the team the producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlew guest booking by Elan Bird the video producer is Toby Babalola social media is by Alex Morgan production assistance by Jennifer Seeley audio mixing by Richard Ward our music is by Bart Warshaw and the executive producer is Louisa Lewis at Bloomberg Weekend, director of audio and special projects is Brendan Francis Newnham and our Our executive editor is Catherine Bell.

51:49And our email address is michelshow at bloomberg.net. We will always write back to you. Until next time, goodbye. Is that right? Absolutely.

52:12Here's a paradox. We buy insurance for peace of mind, yet the very policies we trust can deliver the biggest financial shocks. Across America, millions of claims are denied every year, not because people did anything wrong, but because policies quietly excluded the things that happened. The psychology of trust tells us we assume the contract is fair, but in insurance, the information gap is massive. The insurer knows every detail of what's covered. The policyholder rarely does. That's where my policy advocate comes in. For just 27 cents a day, their platform reads your policies and shows you in plain language where you're vulnerable.

52:48They're not selling insurance. They don't do that. It's about transparency, giving ordinary people the same understanding insurance companies have had for decades. Because when you know what's really in your policy, you can plan, protect, and avoid surprises. Before you trust your policy to protect you, let My Policy Advocate tell you what it really says. Visit MyPolicyAdvocate.com today. Peace of mind starts with knowing the truth. MyPolicyAdvocate.com.

53:45A business gift should do more than check a box. It should reflect your brand and show someone they're appreciated, recognized, and truly seen. 4imprint offers thousands of high-quality, customizable products, like premium apparel, drinkware, tech, and more, making it easy to create a gift that feels meaningful and on-brand. And with 4imprint's expert support and their 360-degree guarantee, you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive exactly as intended. Explore gifting with confidence at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain.