Author Andrey Kurkov on Winter in Kyiv and Why Putin Won’t Stop

18:34Andrey Kurkov:And what did you think when you were a young man in your 20s and seeing the Soviet Union come to an end? Did you have a vision then of Ukraine as an independent sovereign nation? Or did you always think there would be a sibling type relationship with Russia?

18:50Mishal Husain:Well, I mean, when everything was collapsing in 1991, of course, I mean, I was first puzzled and surprised by everybody else because, I mean, I was anti-Soviet dissident, not as serious as my elder brother. But I couldn't first imagine what will happen next. And then suddenly I naively became very optimistic and I thought that now as Ukraine is much smaller than Russia, it will be much easier to make of Ukraine a civilized European country which will have stable European democratic values and rules and everything will function. And of course, these hopes of mine were crashed by the first post-Soviet years because we had a mafia-run state with a huge inflation, with people being afraid to leave the flats to go outside because different gangs were shooting at each other.

19:42Mishal Husain:And I remember that my parents were afraid to leave the apartment in the first weeks after the collapse. But then actually, then slowly the country was changing. And slowly, I'm saying from my personal point of view, but from the point of view of history, the changes were very quick because, I mean, like I have a feeling that I lived in five or six different Ukrainians since 1991. And the Ukraine of the 1998, 99, 2000 was already quite comfortable. And life was easy and there was something to do and you had freedom and you didn't have censorship and you could publish whatever you wanted to publish if you were a writer, not a journalist.

20:27Mishal Husain:Being a journalist was a difficult thing and a dangerous thing in Ukraine. But I don't know to which Ukraine we will come back after the war. It will be another Ukraine. It will be very different Ukraine and probably with lots of dramatic stories, personal stories.

20:45Andrey Kurkov:And do you feel that you have been changed by these four years?

20:53Mishal Husain:I think everybody was changed. My first change that I noticed in myself is that I stopped valuing material things. And it's quite unusual for me because I was always a collector from being a child. I was collecting stamps, old coins, icons, ancient newspapers and magazines, etc., and old vinyls and the gramophones. I have a collection of gramophones and suddenly all of that became useless and not important. The other thing, if we talk about writing, I couldn't write before there were violent scenes. I mean, I was avoiding blood in the literary texts. And it is very easy for me now. I mean, writing violent, describing violent situations is just a normality because violence became a normality.

21:53Mishal Husain:It is a daily piece of news. But of course, I mean, there are other changes. The fact that I learned all the roots out of Ukraine. This is interesting. I mean, you become an unwilling adventurer. You have to calculate on which border crossing you will spend less time and which country will be more friendly to you as to a Ukrainian than the others.

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24:38Andrey Kurkov:So amidst all of this, you know that defense and security figures, political figures from many countries, including the US and of course Europe, are gathering in Munich for the big security conference. What would you say to them if you had a slot on that stage?

24:56Mishal Husain:Well, I would tell them to think about other measures to have an influence on Putin, on Russia, to stop this crazy war, to stop killing people by coal, by missiles, by drones, by their thermobaric bombs, which are destroying the villages. I mean, we are living in 21st century, unlike Russia. Russia prefers Middle Ages. OK, but I mean, Putin will not stop unless he is forced to stop. And to smile and to say that we should still keep a peaceful conversation or try to find a common language with Russia, I mean, it doesn't make sense. I mean, the only language Russia would understand economical pressure, diplomatic pressure, military pressure, and solidarity, which is becoming elusive.

25:45Mishal Husain:Because I mean, like, I don't feel that actually the US government is supporting us. I mean, they want to put an end to the war for different reasons. Europe is more involved now. But still, I mean, we want more from Europe. I mean, we didn't have two days ago enough missiles to shoot down the missiles from Russia. And now the town of Burshtin is without heating and hot water and running water and electricity.

26:14Andrey Kurkov:So this nature of U.S. support being so elusive, the latest that we've heard from President Zelensky at the time of us speaking is that the U.S. wants the war to end by June. When you hear those words, what goes through your mind?

26:30Mishal Husain:That America will try to push Zelensky, to push the Ukrainian government to accept the loss of territories, practically to accept capitulation, which will be camouflaged as some kind of peace deal. Because, I mean, nobody talks about just peace, about justice. and that's a very bad sign because, I mean, once unjust results of the war are legitimized, the seizure of neighboring countries' land is accepted, then you should understand that we will continue seeing the wars like this. And you don't know where the next war will start and whether it will be again Russia or it will be somebody else.

27:18Andrey Kurkov:So would you want President Zelensky to stand absolutely firm in the face of pressure like that and not to, for example, give up territory in the East, in the Donbas?

27:31Mishal Husain:I think so, yes. I don't think we have really understanding. I mean, I have understand, but I think altogether, mankind, what will happen next if Ukraine gives in? Russia will not stop. Putin will not stop. There will be maybe a break two or three years or two or three months, and there will be another demand to Ukraine to give up more land, to accept becoming less independent, to accept becoming economically weak. And in the end, actually, Europe will say, no, we cannot help you anymore because you are not really doing enough to defend yourself, that your population is not motivated, that you are tired.

28:19Mishal Husain:And that's a terrible picture that I have now talking about this in my mind, because this will be like shrinking country with shrinking freedoms and with shrinking importance on the geopolitical map of the world.

28:36Andrey Kurkov:How widely do you think your view, your sense that Zelensky should stand firm, how widely do you think that is shared, Andrei? And I ask that because there is some evidence from polling that because of the grinding nature of the war, because of the harsh conditions in Kiev and elsewhere, that there are more people coming round to the idea that giving up some territory might be a price worth paying.

29:02Mishal Husain:Well, first of all, let's define what does it mean to give up the territories. I mean, the idea that the territories are not returned to Ukraine, but not turned into Russian territories, like a free economic zone. I mean, this idea was discussed with Americans. I mean, I think this can be acceptable. This can be discussed further. But generally, I think, well, we have between 50 and 60 percent of Ukrainians who still support Zelensky. So I think approximately the same number of people think that he should be firm and he should try his best to defend Ukrainian interests, thinking about the future of Ukraine and not only about today's catastrophic situation.

29:48Andrey Kurkov:And do you still have confidence in him as Ukraine's leader? Because I know that you didn't vote for him. You were not a fan of his in the beginning, but that when you saw how he handled the moment of all-out war four years ago, you started to feel differently about him?

30:03Mishal Husain:Well, I think it's my duty as a citizen to support officially elected government, officially elected president in this situation. I don't know whether I will vote for him next time if he takes part in the elections after the war or not. But now, actually, I think we should be consolidated around the existing power. And he didn't show the signs of weakness. He didn't show readiness to compromise. So he is still defending Ukrainian interests.

30:35Andrey Kurkov:How damaged has he been by the recent corruption scandal?

30:39Mishal Husain:Actually, I think less than expected. But of course, I mean, I have a feeling that he's now alone. I also think that actually this question of corruption in the top circles of the Ukrainian political elite will reappear after the war, and it can become an argument in political discussions, including discussions between different presidential candidates before the elections.

31:06Andrey Kurkov:And your own personal reaction to those allegations, when you're a citizen and you're facing the hardships of war and you learn that people are accused of embezzlement and funds may have gone into the wrong place, how does it make you feel?

31:22Mishal Husain:I'm very angry and I was very upset as everybody else. And I don't have much trust in generally in Ukrainian political elite, because I remember when Ukraine was completely corrupt from the grassroots level, from the traffic police level. I mean, this was gone when Yushchenko became president. And actually, he managed to get rid of this grassroots level corruption. But the corruption in the top levels of political business elite, I mean, remained. And I mean, it's good in a way that we have these scandals regularly because they show that this corruption is uncovered.

32:02Andrey Kurkov:Do you still have confidence, Andrei, in European allies? They obviously sound very different to the US, but do you think that that could ebb away or become elusive as you characterize the United States' attitude to Ukraine?

32:17Mishal Husain:Well, if you listen to Prime Minister of Hungary, Orbán, of course, yes, you will immediately become a pessimist. But now we are listening to the politicians and we listen to those who are saying nice things, who are promising more help, etc. And that's how we get our energy and our relative optimism. But of course, I mean, I understand that there are limits. And the time is the main question. How long more European Union can be supportive of Ukraine? Also, I mean, we should understand actually what will happen inside European Union, taking into consideration the rise of extreme right political forces and the possibility of, for example, ADF party in Germany to become a majority in the parliament.

33:09Mishal Husain:This is quite frightful.

33:10Andrey Kurkov:You said earlier when the war comes to an end, and I know it's an impossible question to answer, but are you preparing yourself for another four years of this?

33:20Mishal Husain:I hope that the war will be over this year or next year. I mean, this is my dream. I was born 16 years after the end of the Second World War. I remember that Kiev didn't have traces of war. So, I mean, everything was new, everything was rebuilt. There was a lot of building going on and new parks. So I think that when the war is over, it will take another probably 10 years, maybe more, maybe 15 years to remove the scars of the war. But the scars physical, visible on the ground, not from people's heads, from people's thoughts. And of course, I mean, the society probably will be split and people will be in different groups.

34:10Mishal Husain:They maybe will not be very friendly in the beginning to each other, those who left and those who stayed. Then the number of collaborators and traitors, for me, I mean, it's something that makes me always very sad. I started from Crimea, where probably 80-90 % of civil servants and the people from the Ukrainian and Secret Service turned out to be Russian agents or immediately were employed by Russian administration and became Russians. So, I mean, this is something that probably will be discussed after the war a lot.

34:44Andrey Kurkov:Yeah, it's a long road ahead one way or another. What about your own future? When do you plan to go home, to go back to Kiev?

34:53Mishal Husain:Well, one, it is warm. Once there is a sun, but generally, actually, I mean, my stay here in the residence is limited. So I will be here until the end of March. And then slowly, not using airplanes because I came by car, I will be moving in the direction of Kiev. And sometime in April, when it is time to plant potatoes and vegetables, and we do it in our garden, that's when I plan to come back.

35:26Andrey Kurkov:And will there be another war diary? You've done three volumes of your war diaries. Can you do more, do you think? Do you have it in you?

35:35Mishal Husain:Well, the last one is called Three Years on Fire, Destruction of Ukraine. I continue to write diary and essays. I didn't plan the book number four, and I hope that it will not be needed. But the texts are here, the texts are in the computer. Some texts are published. and if it is important, I can easily prepare volume number four.

36:04Andrey Kurkov:Does that mean that every day you are writing your reflections on the wall as well as your fiction?

36:13Mishal Husain:Practically, yes, but some reflections are very short, some are five pages long, so they are different. but I do write every day and actually I start my day with coffee and reflections and only then I move on to my next chapter of a new novel.

36:34Andrey Kurkov:So it's almost like your day has to begin with the war chronicle before you can free your mind back to your imagination?

36:43Mishal Husain:Well, that's what happens because I mean sometimes I wake up at three o 'clock in the morning, I check telegram channels for the latest from the front lines. And then I recheck it when I'm up at six, seven o 'clock in the morning. And then, of course, I mean, I react to each piece of news, especially if they are important or if they are unusual. And then I exchange messages with several of my friends and I check what they are doing and how they are. And if their town or city were bombed, if they are okay, they have water and electricity. And I mean, actually, I mean, the messages I exchange with my friends, they are in my computer and in my telephone, they can be also, can become entries in the future book if necessary.

37:35Andrey Kurkov:What about your humour and the nation's humour? Because I know you've written about Ukrainians, especially in contrast to Russians, you said that they are able to find the humour in ordinary situations, that soldiers were filming funny videos on the front line to try and keep the civilian population's morale up. Is that still the case?

37:58Mishal Husain:Unfortunately, actually, the soldier's humour was gone six or seven months into full-scale invasion. But the humour still remains in the society, plays an important role. There is less humour now. but I think still it is used for the psychological defense as a medicine, as something that keeps you motivated and keeps you hopeful.

38:24Andrey Kurkov:I want to share one reflection with you that I've heard here in London from a Ukrainian I spoke to who began the year just saying to me, we are so tired. Now, she's not living in the country at the moment. She's far from the front line, but she goes back to see her mother and she just feels this immense weariness at this ongoing situation. How do you keep your energy up, let alone your spirits up, at a time like this?

38:52Mishal Husain:My morale is kept by my friends, by my readers, by my connection to the world, by my desire to write, by new ideas that I have, by coffee that I drink too much. But I know a lot of people who are suffering, and these people actually, They have nobody to motivate them. They have financial problems. They are not helped enough. These people are wary. These people actually have no hope.

39:16Andrey Kurkov:And is it part of your job to keep giving or sharing some hope to the best of your abilities?

39:22Mishal Husain:Yeah, yeah. I mean, the main thing is not to share bad news. Unfortunately, many social networks users in Ukraine, they love to share bad news. Things are bad, but when you're actually sharing bad news, you are multiplying this feeling.

39:38Andrey Kurkov:But where's the good news these days? Is it in the individual resilience? What do you see that makes you feel less bad about the situation?

39:47Mishal Husain:Well, I mean, the fact that actually the Ukrainian participant of Eurovision was chosen a couple of days ago with a brilliant song, and this lady actually lives in Germany. She's Ukrainian refugee. I'm thinking that actually it's very important that her voice will be heard on Eurovision. Ukrainian sports people, I mean, skiers, are taking part in Cortina Dampetso Olympic competitions. I mean, Ukrainian writers are in Paris reading their poetry in Ukrainian. So, I mean, like, Ukraine is becoming more and more engaged in different spheres of European life. And this is my hope, that actually we are part of Europe.

40:30Mishal Husain:if Ukraine disappears, it will probably provoke collapse of the European Union, but definitely it will show that democratic values are not really values that keep people of the civilized world together.

40:47Andrey Kurkov:Andrei Kurkov, thank you for talking to us. Best of luck with the new novel as you continue writing it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. And that's the Michelle Hussain show for this week. In the show notes, you'll find our email plus links to these conversations in video and as an illustrated text Q &A with my notes at bloomberg.com forward slash weekend. The show's producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlu. The video producer is Andy Haywood. Social media is by Alex Morgan. Production support by Jennifer Seeley. Audio mixing and editing by Richard Ward. Our music is by Bart Warshaw, and the executive producer is Louisa Lewis.

41:30Andrey Kurkov:We're part of Bloomberg Weekend, where Brendan Francis Newnham is editorial director of audio and special projects, and our executive editor is Catherine Bell. Until next time, goodbye.

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