Forget the Manosphere: Jon Ronson on Why Men Feel Lost

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1:35A lot of men feel like they're being tossed around in a sea of conflicting ideologies about what being a man actually means. We're living in a time when people are adrift from the old structures and the old institutions and are feeling without purpose, and I really empathise with that. John Ronson, writer and storyteller. So men are right to be confused about their place in the world and their roles right now. I think I understand when some men do feel that way. The world has changed shape and what is that doing to their inner lives? They're like balls in a pinball machine. Be like this, no, be more like this, no, be more like this.

2:16From Bloomberg Weekend, this is The Michelle Hussain Show. I'm Michelle Hussain.

2:25I think of John Ronson's work as being about unusual people and often undercurrents in society. He has talked to extremists, psychopaths, conspiracy theorists, people who believe in white supremacy or violent jihad, or that the state is coming to get them. And yet, even in the midst of material like that, there are moments of humour. Whether in his writing, he's produced best-selling books, or his audio work, his podcast about the culture wars, things fell apart. And he has moved seamlessly between Britain and the United States, with a pretty unique way of working, involving persuading people to talk to him, to let him into their world.

3:16More than once, he's called his investigations Adventures, and that's in the subtitle, too, of his latest book, The Castle, Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men. It's a series of stories all featuring men who are struggling in some way, to live life in the way that they want, to make a living, to find a sense of purpose, provide for their families, even to find a sense of self that makes them feel good. They're all real people, not fictional characters. And the first story is about a man who is trying to live a Hugh Hefner Playboy Mansion-style life, persuading young women to dress up as princesses and to be filmed for what he tells them is a reality TV show.

4:04But more than a collection of questionable individuals or tales of men messing up, The Castle is also about tech in our lives, what its impact on traditional jobs is driving people towards, and even what the fawning way AI speaks to us might be doing to our brains. There is also a personal dimension that I think makes this different to other John Ronson books. This one starts with his own son and Ronson himself is a man in his 50s writing about how some men of his age and younger are confronting a world in which they feel the goalposts are being moved, not just away from them and fast but unfairly.

4:50So that hopefully sets the scene. And here's what happened when John Ronson joined me from his home in upstate New York. How are you doing? So great to see you. Thank you so much for doing this. My pleasure. Thank you. Your voice is so familiar from all those years on TV and obviously the Culture Wars series. Yes, it turns out I have a very distinctive voice. When I'm at parties, no one recognises my face, but people come up to me all the time and say they recognise my voice. So this book is your first in a decade, The Castle, is that right? Yeah. When somebody says that, I always say like I've done something wrong.

5:34It has taken me that long. But I promise you I've been working every day in the last decade. I just switched to audio shows. I made, obviously, my BBC show, Things Fell Apart, and a couple of shows for Audible. But yes, this is my first actual book since So You've Been Publicly Shamed, which is 10 years ago. Yeah, a book I remember well. And it's called The Castle Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men. There is an actual castle with which it begins. I mean, a mock castle, maybe a mansion that is designed like a castle. Tell us that story right at the beginning. It's where the book begins. It's where the story begins.

6:14How did it unravel? It's a story that just crashed unannounced into my life. I'm asleep and I wake up and there's a series of texts for my son. So I read the last text first. The last text, how is swearing on this show? Is it frowned upon or is it? Go for it. We'll deal with it afterwards. Give us the raw version and then we'll figure it out. OK. The last text said, we left. That was completely f***ed. We're OK now. So I read the other texts and it turned out that he and three friends had been invited to a party being held by a stranger that one of them had met earlier that week on Tinder. So they drive to this man's house, four of them powered into a car, drove three hours to the forests of Connecticut and pulled up.

7:06And this guy's house was a vast newly built castle, which was ostentatious even by Gothic castle standards. Loads of turrets and towers. They cross the drawbridge and enter the Grand Hall to discover that there's no party. So the castle owner comes out and they said, where's the party? And he said, no, no, no, I've invited you here to take part in my reality show called 101 Princesses. They said, what's the concept? He said, I'm the Lord. I'm looking for my queen and I have 101 princesses to choose from. Go downstairs to my basement costume room, he said this to the women. Put on some princess costumes.

7:50So they went downstairs, put on princess costumes. because these are young people eager to please and there's a hint of a work opportunity, but it becomes very clear very quickly that there wasn't a real reality show. So they're kicked out and then I go to the castle to try and find out what the hell is going on and this is how the book begins. I have to say, when I read this account in the book, I thought how extraordinary that a story like this drops into your lap of all people because if it was my son, I would probably do a bit of investigating and have some stern words with him. But this is right in your lane.

8:29You've been on the trail of weird people and places for 30 years. Yes, it rarely happens in life that a story begins while you're asleep and oblivious. Of course, none of the other parents went to investigate the castle. So it was to do with me as well. Obviously, my need, One of the themes that comes out of this book is about purpose. We're living in a time when people are adrift from the old structures and the old institutions and are feeling without purpose. And I really empathise with that. And my son being lured to this castle happened to coincide with me having a medical issue. I was in hospital having a major operation.

9:15And so I was feeling desperately like I need to clutch hold of the world here, lest it slip through my fingers and I become this kind of purposeless man. And so that was part of what motivated me to get out of my sickbed and drive to this castle. Yeah, within two weeks, I think, you're on the trail and you write to the man who owns the castle and say, can you come and see him? And even though you say I'm a nonfiction writer, he says, yes, come and see me. Yes, absolutely. And I double-checked. I'm like, I'm coming on Friday. I want to get an audio interview. So I was very clear. Because I did think to myself, I need to be so rigorous here.

9:52This could turn into something very odd. So yes, I was very open. Because I was just out of hospital, every time I'd moved in the wrong way, it kind of tore at my surgery scar and I'd let out a shriek. So I'm going around this castle like Quasimodo at Notre Dame, letting out these shrieks, like some tormented castle visitor from an Edgar Allan Poe novel. And you dedicate the castle to Joel, your son. Is he fine with you writing about the story that involves him right at the beginning? Yes, he loves it. And he's pleased, I think, that this thing that happened to him ended up creating this incredible story.

10:34And also, not to give much away, but after I leave the castle, things escalate dramatically. The castle owner starts sending me these very ominous messages. He says he's going to sue me. He's got a team of investigators investigating me. And then he says he has two murderers on his payroll called Carlos and Brandon. And if I ever write anything negatively about the castle, he's going to send them to me because they'll get very angry. Do you think that was true? Well, much later on, I met him again in Florida, in Fort Lauderdale, and I brought up Carlos and Brandon. That's sort of how are Carlos and Brandon doing?

11:18And for a moment, I don't put this in the book, actually, but for a little moment, he looks a little bewildered, like he'd forgotten that he'd sent me these messages. It turns out that he does have murderers on his payroll, but his spokesman said to me that's because he likes to give ex-convents a second chance in life. And Joel wanted me to meet Carlos and Brandon and take five security guards with me. I'm like, I'm not going to meet Carlos and Brandon, Joel. Anyway, the other theme that was emerging from all of this was that this castle owner wanted to be Hugh Hefner. But it's very hard to be Hugh Hefner these days.

12:02This is like the worst moment in human history to try and be Hugh Hefner, unless you're the kind of creme de la creme of manosphere influences. So I thought this is another man who's kind of out of time. The world is moving away from him and he's desperately trying to do something about it, just like me in my way, just coming out of hospital. And so this is a theme that happens in very different ways with all the men in this book. The world has changed shape. It's no longer as much for men like this as it used to be. And what is that doing to their inner lives? I'd love to ask a bit more about how you related to not just this one story, but the others that you tell about other men who, as you say, have lost their footing in the world.

12:49Because you've got this cast of characters, including people who are influencers and YouTubers and former YouTubers. And I think for some of them, at least, you do have this empathy, like the former YouTuber, Greg Chisholm, who has made these really extreme videos involving his children, is encouraged by platforms and then demonetised. I think you do end up with, you feel for him, don't you? Oh, yes. Other than the Castle story, which goes throughout the book, this is the most extraordinary story for me in the book. It's an incredible story. He's a working-class guy from a Rust Belt. He should be working in the factories, but the factories have all closed down.

13:32So he becomes a YouTuber. YouTube is presenting itself as this kind of wide-open country where a man can thrive through grit as an influencer, a content creator. This is in the early days of that. These days, everyone is a content creator, 39 % of the population, apparently. so he gives himself over to the algorithm and to what he believes the viewers want to see and he's being led into more and more extreme content and by the end of it you're like what the hell is going on like the videos he did in 2017 are so bizarre but when you come to a story from the beginning and you're with him every step of the way it all makes a kind of logical sense he's just following the incentive structure that's provided by these platforms and his life spirals in the most dramatic ways.

14:27And that kind of story could easily be a woman, couldn't it? But overall, the theme that you choose is men who no longer have a place in the world. Yes. I decided to focus on men in this book mostly because I thought nobody's written anything about this sort of huge shift in power in the way that I would write about it. But you're absolutely right. So much of this book applies to women. So why make that particular choice then about men? I mean, again, is it because it's personal? You're seeing it through Joel's eyes. You're seeing it through your own eyes. I don't know, maybe you're even comparing it to your father and the very different life he led one generation before in Wales.

15:16Yeah, absolutely. My father worked in a warehouse. He managed a warehouse. And one day the warehouse went under because the owner was an alcoholic and a gambler and my father lost everything. And I remember walking into his room one day, I just saw him standing alone crying. And that's always stayed with me. This idea of if a man loses his purpose, his place in the world, it can have a very deleterious effect. And your father seeing him in that state that day, obviously not intending you to see him crying. What was the impact on you? Did you think, I'm going to have to be stiff upper lip like this as much as I can?

16:00Well, I was quite impressed. He would always say, like, a man, you must always provide for your family, always pay your taxes on time, never get into financial difficulty. He would hammer this home with me. And I always did. I always have. seeing him in that room crying that day like that I think I was sort of impressed that he'd gone to the trouble to cry in secret away from his family so as not to worry us cut to me being a father I mention this in the book there's a time when I accidentally sliced my hand open with a knife and I ran around the house screaming it's really bad so clearly. I found this stoicism didn't rub off on me.

16:46Didn't rub off. By the way, speaking of stoicism, another theme that comes up in the book is how a lot of men feel like they're being tossed around in a sea of conflicting ideologies about what being a man actually means. And I did find it very funny and interesting that you've got all of these men's health influencers who are saying that the way for men to re-anchor themselves to society is to be vulnerable, express your vulnerabilities. Women love it. If you're on a date, be vulnerable. This is what's going to work. And there's all this evidence that when a man does express his vulnerabilities to a woman, fairly often, even women who want them to do it, recoil in horror and disgust because deep down women actually want men to have this sort of stoicism and so on.

17:39And it's kind of disgusting when men don't do that. So I thought that was very interesting, this idea of like these different ideologies, like balls in a pinball machine being tossed around. Be like this. No, be more like this. No, be more like this. I'm smiling because in a recent episode that I had with Tucker Carlson, we ended up talking about women and his views on women. He believes that women want men to be really decisive and any woman who doesn't say that I want a man to make the final decision is basically lying. That's funny. Obviously, I don't feel that, but I'm sure that this is a rare occasion when me and Tucker Carlson would have some common ground.

18:17So men are right to be confused about their place in the world and their roles right now. I understand why. I mean, you know, none of this really applies to me. I feel quite, well, actually that's not true. It does apply to me to an extent. I think that I understand when some men do feel that way.

18:49never stand still, we're there to help you act with conviction. At HSBC, we connect the people, ideas, and capital to unlock growth, backing your ambitions at every stage. So when you're planning for the next generation, strengthening your portfolio, or expanding into new markets, we're there, bringing over 160 years of experience to help you move forward. HSBC, opening up a world of opportunity.

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21:52Obviously, John, I'm curious about what you think of two key terms, if you like, which are bandied about a lot. one is toxic masculinity and the other is the manosphere. What is your view? Well, it's funny. I decided right at the beginning of this book, the two areas I wanted to avoid were the manosphere and incels, because they're the first things you think of when you think about this. And how would this book look if I didn't go to those places? There's a little bit about the manosphere in the book, but very little. What there is in the book is this idea of some men just bow out of society. There's more than 7 million men in America who aren't only unemployed.

22:31They aren't even looking for jobs. So they've just withdrawn. But then other men are like lashing out into disinhibited behaviour. And I write a lot about that. But toxic masculinity, I actually think, was really funny. So the American Psychological Association brought out this paper not so long ago saying that traditional masculinity is on the whole harmful. and then they list all of these harmful male traits and some of them are ambiguously harmful like misogyny but others were risk and adventure and competitiveness and I'm reading that thinking I do that all the time like I'm constantly having adventures and putting myself in risky situations and so on and not only do I think it's not toxic I actually love it It's like my favourite times and I'm doing it just while writing this book.

23:25But I've got to say, I pulled myself out of my sickbed with a foot of my colon having just been removed. I got myself to this skeevy castle in the middle of nowhere in Connecticut because I couldn't bear a couple of days of convalescing because I felt life was passing me by. So my hard-won insight is I think their wording was very bad, but maybe they were on to something. I do think there's a lot of pretty unhelpful labeling going on and toxic masculinity probably falls into that category. On the manosphere, I realized, again, that's also probably an overused term. But I was looking down the list of guests on Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson's shows and I realized they very rarely have a woman on as the guest.

24:13It is generally, and I mean, these are huge shows with, you know, many, many millions of views and a lot of airtime. And it is quite rare that the guest, the interviewee will be a woman. Yeah, I do know one or two women have been on Joe Rogan. But no, you're right. And there is a kind of love of, well, you know, Joe Rogan comes from the UFC world, the cage fighting world. And so he's very much part of that world. As it happens, by the way, I don't put this in the book, I might put it in the paperback, but I went to the cage fight at the White House. Oh, the 4th of July celebration. Yeah, well, I think it was a little bit earlier.

24:55But yes, we're talking about the same thing when they erected a cage on the White House lawn. And I went and I've written about it. And it was just an extraordinary week. I loved it. What I noticed was, you know, the pendulum swing back from the excesses of what became known as cancel culture was a lot of men were like, and people, men and women, were like, I refuse to be ashamed anymore. You overshamed us. I'm just going to become unashamed. And that then mutated into disinhibition. Not only am I unashamed, I'm going to just do whatever I want. I'm going to be completely disinhibited, like it or lump it.

25:30And what I saw that week at the White House was several occasions when that was no longer working. I was talking to this one UFC fighter called Sean O'Malley, who would always boast about his one-sided open marriage. He was allowed to have sex with other women that his wife wasn't. And he would explain it as saying, well, Andrew Tate puts it very well. I have status. I have status. So I said to him, you have an open marriage. Surely that doesn't work. And he said, well, it worked until it didn't. And his wife has put her foot down and said, no more sleeping with other women. And he looked so baffled at this change in his fortunes.

26:11And I wondered whether that's a little clue to the future that maybe real life is starting to snap back. Yeah. I, of course, remember you talking, writing the whole book about being publicly shamed. And there was that case of the woman who tweeted about AIDS and got on a long plane journey and got off the other end to discover that she's the subject of international attacks and has lost her job. So do you think that there is just much less force in that kind of phenomenon now that we've moved into a world beyond that? Well, certainly the left's power to shame has diminished enormously. When Twitter died and the left sort of moved on to places like Blue Sky, completely lost their power.

26:59But now, of course, you know, you're seeing much more shaming coming from the right, which is so annoying to me. because when I brought up my public shaming book, they were the ones who were all like, you know, we agree with John Rundson. We're against public shaming. This is terrible. Give them the power. They just do it. So that's what we're seeing now. I assume you followed. Well, I was about to say what you were about to ask me, I think, Jason Arday. Yes, yes. OK, we were both. We were both thinking the same thing at the same time. He was Cambridge's youngest black professor and one of the youngest professors when he was appointed three years ago.