Gary Lineker on the World Cup, Trump and the Fans Left Behind

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2:02I think it's more off the field. There are concerns. Is it just going to be purely corporate? Are we pricing out real supporters? Gary Lineker, podcaster and media boss. Have you got a guarantee from Netflix that if you want to criticise President Trump on air, on Netflix, through the podcast, that's OK with them? I've not asked them that question. We're doing a show every single day. So there will be some days where we might need something to talk about. But I'm hoping we don't have to. But I fear we might have to. From Bloomberg Weekend, this is The Michelle Hussain Show. I'm Michelle Hussain.

2:46I'm going to say right at the outset here that when you hear the word football in this episode, which you will a lot, I don't mean American football, but what you might know as soccer. I'm afraid I have to stick to football because that's the way it is in my DNA. And that's how it is for my guest too, Gary Lineker, who was a top goal scorer for England before he moved from competitive sport to sports broadcasting. He went on to have a long career with the BBC, ending in a rather public falling out, which you will hear us discuss. But now his own podcast, The Rest is Football, is on Netflix every day of this World Cup.

3:33So I wanted him to take us into the atmosphere of a big moment like this, a tournament hosted by three countries, the US, Canada and Mexico. The fact that the organizers gave President Trump a peace prize, And then there's the commercialisation of the game. And I don't just mean this World Cup, but the game in general, clubs across Europe. By the way, Gary Lineker is really more podcast boss than mere podcaster because his company, Goalhanger, is right at the forefront of the audio industry. So that comes up too. We grabbed some time in his diary before he headed off to New York. And when he walked into the studio, there was a copy of his book on the table, a 2010 World Cup diary.

4:26His reaction wasn't what I imagined. Here's what happened. Is that actually me? Seriously, you don't remember this? No. You better have a quick flick through it yourself. I may be quoting bits of it at you. It was your World Cup diary that year. Really? Yeah. Crikey. I did wonder why there was only one, because clearly you've been at plenty of World Cups since then. So maybe this explains it. I'm zero. Honestly, no memory of that. That's the first time I think I've ever seen that book. Well, even when it came out? I didn't know it even did come out. I have no memory that I did that. Well, you definitely got talked into it.

5:02You say as much in the introduction. Here we are. Thanks to all at Simon & Schuster, particularly Ian Chapman, who took me out for lunch and persuaded me that this was a good idea. Oh, wow. An idea clearly, spiffly forgotten. That's what happens when you get older, you forget everything. You were 15 years younger when this came out. So no desire to add books to the media empire. No, it's not a plan. I guess I'd love to start, Gary, by just getting your expectations and thoughts on this particular World Cup because you've seen many. I think your first as a player was 1986. You've done your research, Misha, thank you.

5:44Well, that much I should know for starters, but you've seen them from different angles. So set the scene for this one for us. Well, football-wise, I think once it gets underway, it'll hopefully be eventful and entertaining and live up to expectations. I think it's more off the field. There are concerns, but that's been the case of every World Cup that I think I've covered and played in. It's hard to remember them that long ago, but even in 86 it was the height of Mexican cartels and all that, and it was in Mexico. So 1990 we had a huge hooliganism problem, and Thatcher tried to pull us out of the door, and it was at one point.

6:25So it's been ever thus in some ways. Even in recent times you've got Brazil 2014, huge demonstrations on the streets saying they shouldn't be spending this amount of money on stadiums when they could be helping the infrastructure of the country. Then we got 2018, just four years before Russia had invaded Crimea. So there's a lot of hullabaloo about that. Four years on to Qatar, we were talking about LGBTQ rights, people dying in the building of the stadiums. So I'm used to this. This is what the build-up is to a World Cup. It's all about the problems. Then once it starts, it focuses on the football.

7:05But there's a distinct possibility at the moment that the host nation or one of the three host nations, the main host nation, obviously, America, could be at war with, you know, one of the teams that are in the tournament. As things stand, Iran are coming. Yeah, exactly. They are coming. So, you know, we don't know from day to day what's going to happen. So, yeah, this is a little bit different. But hopefully a little bit like I remember going in Russia and everything was cleaned up before they came and a lot of the Russian people said, this is the best it's ever been here. It's amazing. So I'm hoping it'll be a little bit like that.

7:42People like Ice are not taking fans off the streets. Well, that's a good question, right? Because there is that sense that it's possible that these international gatherings of fans to watch, this is a place that Ice could be. Yeah, and some reports that some players are not getting visas. Hopefully it'll all be okay for the World Cup. So I'm looking forward to actually the football starting. Yeah. But this is the atmosphere that surrounds it. And there are other elements. For example, Gianni Infantino, FIFA's close friendship with Donald Trump. Do you think that has gone beyond the norm when a country is about to host the World Cup and the way that FIFA has to interact with that host nation?

8:27I find it very peculiar and very odd, actually. I think we call him Sikofantino now. I think that's his new name. But yeah, I think the whole thing, you know, the Peace Prize and all that sort of nonsense. And so it's a concern, you know, and other things like that, you know, the pricing of the tickets is astronomical compared with previous World Cups. And obviously, you know, FIFA must be involved in the ticket pricing, etc. And they're supposed to be a non-for-profit organisation. You know, they've got billions in the bank and it's supposed to go straight back into the sport. Hopefully it does.

9:00But the ticket pricing seems off the chart. It's going to be really, really expensive. And one of the great joys of a World Cup, seeing all the Brazilian fans and the Argentinian fans and the African fans and, you know, people of Senegal and even from Europe, you know, the Dutch all turning up in orange and et cetera. Are we going to see that? I don't know. Is it just going to be purely corporate? Are we pricing out real supporters? So there are a lot of concerns going into the World Cup. I reiterate what I said before. This has often been the case and once it gets going, it's okay. So fingers crossed.

9:39Gianni Infantino and Donald Trump, the Peace Prize which you mentioned. I want to just like fill in the blanks a bit for anyone who didn't follow that at the time. Can you fill them in for me, please? Well, the basics was that not long after Donald Trump did not win the Nobel Prize, it was announced that he was going to win a FIFA Peace Prize. It was the most peculiar. I just don't understand why. I think it was partly ego. Whose ego? Infantino's. Yeah, and he wanted to do something. And obviously he seems to be cosying up very much to the President of the United States. You know, fair enough.

10:17But I thought that was a step too far. I mean, who's going to win it in four years' time? Netanyahu is someone. At the time, he said that Donald Trump deserved to win this prize. But there was clearly a kind of lack of transparency around what the criteria were. I'd love to know what the criteria was. Are these questions that you can ask on air on the podcast? because the rest of the football is going to be on Netflix every day through the World Cup. Do you envisage talking about this kind of thing? Absolutely, I would think so, yeah. I don't think there'll be any doubt. We can talk about whatever.

10:49That's the beauty of a podcast. You're doing one now. You can go where you want. But it's new, isn't it? Netflix putting a podcast like yours on and I just wondered if there's going to be a different vibe or even a different understanding with them. Netflix have said to us the reason that they wanted our podcast to give them a part of the World Cup that they didn't have four years ago because they liked the way it was. So we'll have a lot of fun. We'll talk a lot about football, but we'll naturally discuss, you know, if ordinary fans can't get in or if there's any issues going on outside. Yeah, we're doing a show every single day.

11:27So there will be some days where we might need something to talk about, but I'm hoping we don't have to. But I fear we might have to. But have you got a guarantee from Netflix that if you want to criticise President Trump on air, on Netflix, through the podcast, that's okay with them? Because the American media is in a funny place overall on that topic. Well, I've not asked them that question, but I suspect that it'll be okay. But this is the backdrop to the tournament? Well, it is at the moment, but it was the same, I remember, with Putin in 2018. But once the tournament started, there's so many, there's four football matches a day.

12:04So hopefully there won't be any issues to talk about. But if there is, of course we will. And how do you feel about it being this long stretch, longer tournament than usual, bigger tournament than usual, the fact that there's going to be 48 teams this time? Because I've heard people say, Infantino himself, that means it's more inclusive. Teams are making their World Cup debut. and other people saying it's a money grab, it just shouldn't be that big? Well, I think it's a bit of both. There is part of me that says there are players and countries that will have an opportunity to play in a World Cup, which they would never have been able to do.

12:37That's a real positive. The number of games that the players are going to be asked to play in tough conditions will be really difficult and demanding. Players, at some point, they've got to give somewhere with football as they're playing too many games. and it's just the fill in the calendar, there's no break at all. So in this World Cup, it's not the fact that you've got more teams necessary, but the way they've structured it is that we now have a round of 32. So after the group stages, it's pretty much impossible for any really good team not to get through to the knockout stage. But I actually quite like an extra round in that sense because there's more drama, there's more jeopardy because the group stages, I think, frankly, they're never, you'll get the odd upset, but generally the best teams will go through and I think that will be the same.

13:28I think a lot of the interest in the group stages will be the smaller nations playing for the first time, Curacao and countries like that. Jordan. Jordan, and there are a lot of others. And I think that will be special, but I think the World Cup will really start once you get to the last 32. But also the logistics, the distances involved and the borders, because you are talking about a World Cup over three countries. Yeah, Mexico, Canada. Yeah, exactly. So I'm not sure that's happened before. We've had two. We've had South Korea and Japan shared it. And the next one will be three as well, won't it?

14:02Morocco, Spain and Portugal. I mean, it's predominantly in the States. Certainly the finals in the States. There are a lot of way more matches in the States, but America's a very, very large country. But they've had a World Cup there before, so the travel is not too problematical. But yeah, logistically, it will be difficult for both the teams, the players and people covering it as well. Well, exactly. So for you, people in the UK will know you for being the voice on the BBC of football over such a long time. You're now going to have this global audience and you're going to cover it for the duration, wherever the tournament goes.

14:40How different an experience is it going to be for you? it will be quite different although we got i think we got a sort of smidgen of um of the experience in berlin and the euros two years ago but obviously this is a much higher end production because not only is it a podcast it's also going to be you know a tv show that goes out sort of as live we'll be recording most of the shows in the evening so it's it's it's a lot of work slightly daunting but incredibly exciting there's a lot of planning we've been planning for a long time. We've got loads of great guests, which I can't say yet. But, you know, our base studio is right above Times Square.

15:20I'm really, genuinely, it's something different for me as well. Obviously, I've covered, Lord knows how many World Cups for everyone since 94 and played in two previous ones. So I've covered them all, but this will be different. Obviously, we don't have the football. We're not showing any of the games, but the BBC and IT, they have the rights to show the matches, such is the nature of the World Cup and the way the rights are sold. They're sold to individual countries, obviously, all around the world where they buy the rights. I can't see the World Cup, but who knows the way the world is changing, the way television is changing, whether one entity, whether it be Netflix or Amazon or whoever, could buy the whole World Cup rights to show everywhere.

16:03But it'll be lighthearted, it'll be fun, and sometimes it'll be serious. You know what it reminds me of hearing you talk about it is when you did the Olympics in 2012, because you and I were both part of the BBC lineup, not together, different points in the day. But I think that was a moment for you where you were going beyond football for the first time. Yeah, I'd done golf and I also worked on, I worked on the Olympics in, what was it, 90? What was the one in Atlanta? Was it 96? And that was kind of my first role. And that was an interesting experience because I wasn't ready really. But I had the night shift anyway.

16:41No one was watching. But then the London Olympics, obviously I was doing the primetime show and it was, I mean, I had to do some studying for that. Do you remember the book they gave us? They gave us like a massive file. We have one like that for the World Cup every time. So you'd seen it before. The football one I never really read. Because you didn't need to. I know football. I know all the players. I watch a million games a year. But with the Olympics, I had to do so much research into not necessarily the people involved in them, but actually how the sports worked. Because you can't go on a show like that and not know your stuff.

17:17But it was quite funny because I'd go in early, we'd watch the games all day and we were doing really well, really successful. And what happened is because we, I think the prime, we did seven o 'clock till 10 o 'clock and we'd get guests in. Someone who won the gold medal that day or, you know, the early days it was someone who won a medal. then it became so successful it was who won gold medals and um we were in there one night and i had nine separate interviews and you didn't really know who we were going to get until late on because some people would pull out and cancer you did somebody win a gold medal and they brush them into the studio and i remember i had four lads were brought in sat next to me and we got about 30 seconds to go and um the floor manager chris i looked at him and i went help help and he and he went i don't know hang on and as i was introducing them they were telling me their names in in their ear and it was like what did they do they won the meanwhile they won a gold medal meanwhile they're completely starstruck because they're sitting on that i'm not sure about that looking at you but you know i do i do remember for the same because i was on in the morning so very far away from prime time but i also remember at one point taekwondo coming on and realising there was a moment where I had to talk over the live pictures of Taekwondo and frantically trying to look up the relevant page of Taekwondo.

18:36There's nothing in Taekwondo in that book, I can tell you that now. There was buried somewhere in that file. But I also remember once, speaking of the medal winners, once the brilliant women rowers came on who had done all the rowers did really well. And I was talking to Catherine Granger, who's now very senior. I think we had them on as well. Well, yeah, I mean, they were very much in demand, but they came on. Your interview is much better. they came on and at one point um i very very foolishly said to katherine granger that i had once rode at university and when my husband heard me say this he was like that was the most embarrassing question you ever asked that is like saying to gary lineker i once played football and that's all right if you did it's embarrassing and i thought yeah it wasn't on the thames was it in one of those little it was oh nothing like that but it was a very long time ago but it was a very lame thing to bring up so but yeah medal winners it's fantastic it's their moment it was not a peddler how dare you it's not a peddler um but i wasn't very good um as probably you can expect i do want to ask you about the trend with funding and investment in english clubs over the last two decades because you've seen this yes um it's not just the individual wealthy owners it's now the sovereign wealth funds and private equity and you know asset managers of all kinds what is the impact do you think of this on the game it does concern me i think particularly once we went down the line of sovereign states but that train has left the station so it's difficult it's an odd one i mean most of our football clubs are owned by americans premier league teams are owned by americans you know billionaires which is odd considering it's not their sport really.

20:19Becoming more their sport though. You can see that in demand for tickets. The interest is growing. It's funny though, American friends going, do you think we've got a good chance? I'm going, zero chance. They went, what do you mean? I said, you've got zero chance. Sorry, any American listeners. Someone has to break it to them. Yeah, it's better to know because it's the hope that destroys you. We've learned that. We've learned that. They're young in footballing terms. Yeah, yeah. But there is an Americanism around the World Cup, isn't there? That there's dynamic pricing probably trying to make the whole model more like American football or American sports more widely.

21:00That's concerning, I think. I mean, I mentioned it earlier, but the ticket pricing, if you're pricing out real fans completely, that's not going to be the same World Cup. So let's see what transpires. but it's a serious concern for me. And going back to the English Premier League clubs, is the impact of money of that kind and from those quarters flowing in that players start to be treated more as commodities or was that always the case? Well, it's better than it used to be. The players actually have quite a bit of control now on things and obviously earn huge amounts, huge salaries but when I was playing, you know, you were basically a piece of meat.

21:47You could be sold anywhere and they basically threatened you that you're playing the reserves if you don't go. So they actually have more power than they used to and obviously a lot more money. So, you know, it's probably gone a bit out of control in some ways but football's big business now, huge business.

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25:00I do wonder if doing the World Cup on Netflix means something to you personally because when you finally left the BBC did you think that that kind of spotlight wouldn't be on you anymore? I mean you're doing the rest is football and you're a media boss now but does it mean something to you to be in demand for this? Well, I knew I'd be covering this World Cup. Didn't know quite how. I knew we'd do the podcast. I think our intention was to go out anyway. So I knew I'd be covering it, but the Netflix thing obviously is really exciting, which I wouldn't have been able to do. I feel really chuffed, actually, in a way.

25:37I mean, obviously, I was with the BBC a long time, and, you know, I think it was like a long marriage in the end. We just kind of got fed up of each other. So, you know, I left. And at that point, I was going to host the World Cup for them. That was going to be my kind of last hurrah. But I've ended up now doing it for Netflix and I'll be in New York. And the BBC, inexplicably, are based in Salford for the World Cup, which I don't understand. And if I'd have been the main presenter, I would have been banging doors down about that. Greater Manchester, essentially, at the BBC Sports Base, not sending the anchors to the World Cup.

26:16I mean, the commentators will be there and the co-commentators, obviously and you know they may if England go really well they may go out to the semi or the final or something I suppose but yeah I just I wouldn't I wouldn't have been happy so for me it's it's turned out it's turned out really well and I'm I'm still talking about football. So that long marriage with the BBC do you regret the way it came to an end? I regret yeah I think it was unfortunate you know just to explain that there was an Instagram post that was talking about the israeli issues zionism etc and then i missed it but there was a little rat emoji on the post that i put on my story and no one noticed for about 17 hours and then then somebody did and then it you know i apologized because apparently it has you know connotations around you know jewish tropes um and that's not something i would ever do and i would never imagine for a minute that any kind of human being should be compared with a rat so it was really unfortunate i apologized i I thought, and then I apologized again.

27:18I thought that should probably be enough, but it wasn't. And in the end, I just thought, oh, come on, let's just end this. You know, we're not getting on very well at the moment. I don't think anybody, anybody thought that I did that deliberately. I mean, I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid. So I don't think anyone really did. So I regret the manner of that. And it was, you know, it's unfortunate. And if it upset anyone, I remain sorry to this day. but it was certainly not deliberate. And in that period, that time after the first few hours, what's happening? Like there's a flurry of phone calls to you, to your agent.