Jeanne Shaheen Is Pressing For Answers on Venezuela, Greenland and Iran

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1:28derivatives, which could increase risks and volatility. Monthly income is not guaranteed. Prepared by BlackRock Investments, LLC. Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news. What the administration has done is replace Nicolas Maduro, one repressive dictator, with another repressive dictator. There are a lot of unanswered questions about America's role in Venezuela. Senator Jean Shaheen, a Democrat grappling with foreign affairs and the future of her own party. But I wonder how alive you are to people's disappointment, anger even. I'll tell you, I deal with it every day. What I say to my Democratic friends is, boy, you better get engaged.

2:11You don't like what's going on in this country. You need to get busy. From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Michelle Hussain Show. I'm Michelle Hussain.

2:26It's an uncertain time in world news, where we've seen American power projected in a dramatic way in Venezuela, where we don't know how far the same instinct will go on Greenland, or the extent of the Trump administration's desire to support the uprising in Iran. And so for this latest episode, we've turned to someone who's been on Capitol Hill for nearly 20 years. Today, Jean Shaheen is the ranking, that is, the most senior Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. She gets access to information most others don't have through classified briefings. And she's known people like Secretary of State Marco Rubio for a long time, since his days in the Senate and indeed on the same committee.

3:13Right now, she is worried enough about the alienation of allies to be heading to Denmark as part of a US Congress delegation. And they'll be trying to build bridges after the president's renewed threats over Greenland. And there's also much for her to deal with at home. She was one of the few Democrats to work with Republicans to bring last year's long shutdown of the federal government to an end. But now, there's another budget deadline at the end of January. and her compromise last time put her at odds with her own daughter, who's herself running for a congressional seat at the midterms in November.

3:51So this conversation is personal as well as political. Senator Shaheen was in her office on Capitol Hill when we spoke. And first up, I simply wanted to know, with so much happening at home and abroad, what was most on her mind? Well, I just came from a briefing with the Armed Services Committee on the operation in Venezuela, so there's a lot of concern about that. But that operation has really raised concerns about what's happening with our allies and partners around the world. And that, I think, is what I am most concerned about right now, is ensuring that the actions of this administration don't undermine our partnerships around the world because they have been so critical to America's national security, to our strength, and to the international world order.

4:43And I know that you're heading to Denmark. So is therefore the foremost on your mind, based on what you've just said about Greenland and how the administration's been speaking about Greenland? Well, also the potential impact on NATO. I co-chair, along with Republican Tom Tillis, the Senate NATO Observer Group. And so we pay very close attention to the impact on NATO of American policy and of policies from the other NATO countries. And there is, I think, very real concern about the potential impact on NATO. Also, Denmark and Greenland share our values. They've been our allies since before World War II.

5:30And Denmark has always been there in support of the United States. And what we've heard from the Danes and from the Greenlanders has been anything the United States is interested in doing in Greenland, they would be happy to partner with us on. We've had a treaty with Greenland since 1951 that allows us to have bases there. In fact, we had 17 at the end of the Cold War, and we've actually closed 16 of those. So I don't think there is any concern on the part of our allies, Denmark and Greenland, about partnering with the United States. And that's the route we should be taking. It should be diplomatic.

6:10We should be engaging in conversations if there is an interest on the part of this administration in additional operations there. So is your major concern then about the actions of your own government? Are you taking the White House seriously when it says that military action is not out of the question against Greenland? Well, I hope that the White House, that that's just rhetoric from the president, but we don't know. And in fact, the rhetoric itself raises real concerns. And I've heard from our European allies about the concerns that are raised by the president's comments. So I think it's important for us.

6:50We have a bipartisan delegation that's going to go to Copenhagen. We will have a chance to listen to those concerns. We'll have a chance to respond and to think about how we move forward together. The thing is, though, Senator, what can you do as a congressional delegation or indeed as Congress unless you detect that there are enough Republican senators who feel as strongly as you do on this? Well, we can continue to raise the issue. After the president's statements, Senator Tillis and I did a bipartisan statement on behalf of the Senate NATO Observer Group, where we pointed out the concerns about what the president was proposing.

7:28the potential impact on NATO. And we need to continue to do that. Has NATO already been irreparably damaged in the sense that it is unprecedented for one NATO ally to threaten the use of force against another? No, I don't think so. We have a very strong NATO alliance. We have all agreed that we are going to invest 5 % of our GDP on defense in ways that strengthen the NATO alliance and better position us to address our adversaries. And I think what we're hearing in Congress is a response to the administration's comments that are helpful for our allies. You said that the briefing that you've just been to was about Venezuela.

8:18And I wonder how much of this talk on Greenland about the possibility of military strikes on Iran, how much of that is because the administration is emboldened by what it's done to Nicolas Maduro? Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure President Trump needs anything to embolden him. So it's not clear. What I do think is a concern is that one of the rationales that the administration has given for going into Venezuela was to address the footholds that China, Russia and Iran have had in Venezuela for other operations throughout the hemisphere. and the concerns that that raises for America's national security.

9:07And what I'm concerned about is that while that has been a successful operation and has given us an opportunity to address some of those inroads that our adversaries have made in Venezuela and in Latin America, that the president's statements actually undermine those efforts because of what he said about Greenland and insults to our allies. But help me understand then whether you got any more clarity out of the briefing you had on Venezuela. Like on this question of the extent of the United States' current involvement in the day-to-day running of Venezuela, we had the president saying the U.S.

9:48is going to run Venezuela, and then we had Marco Rubio having to roll back from that. Well, I can't give you any insights from that briefing because it was classified, unfortunately. But what we have heard is public statements that suggest that when the president says run Venezuela, it doesn't actually mean that there are American officials in the country. And I totally understand, of course, that you can't share what you've been told on a classified basis. But did you end that briefing with more or less concern about Venezuela? Well, it was more about the military operation. So that's not exactly the question that I had as the result of this briefing.

10:26But I think there are a lot of unanswered questions about America's role in Venezuela going forward about the need to maintain a flotilla off the coast of Venezuela if we're going to interdict oil that's coming out of there that's going into the shadow fleet, which I think is a very real concern, not just for America, but for other Western countries as we look at the ability of Russia to continue to fuel its war in Ukraine, as we look at China and the activities that they're engaging around the world. We all have an interest in trying to shut down that shadow fleet. But it does mean that there are costs involved to the United States.

11:06For my constituents in the state of New Hampshire, they're very worried about the cost of living here, about the cost of groceries and power and heating. It's in the middle of winter in New Hampshire right now. And so for any dollars that we're spending in the Caribbean, the president and the administration are not focused on the domestic concerns in the United States. So that's an issue. Certainly the potential for escalation is a concern. We have about 20 % of our ships in the Caribbean right now. We have 15 ,000 men and women in our military. Anytime we have that many people in an area of operation, there's the potential for escalation, particularly given what's happening in Venezuela, because what the administration has done is replace Nicolas Maduro, one repressive dictator, with another repressive dictator.

12:00And while I appreciate the need to try and avoid some of the mistakes that the United States made when we went into Iraq, I think we need to see some goals and objectives, a timeline for what's going to happen, a focus on democratic elections. And we haven't seen any of that yet from the administration. There's real complexity in that, isn't there? Because I'm sure you'd be concerned, if not alarmed, at the idea of complete regime change and what that would mean for America's commitment, whether financial or military. But you're clearly uncomfortable with the state of affairs involving Delce Rodriguez, too.

12:41Well, because we haven't gotten answers to a lot of questions that have been raised about that. And is that concern shared with Republican colleagues, at least some of them? Because there has been this quite striking move where Republican senators have been prepared to say that they'd like the administration to have to get congressional approval before taking further military action on Venezuela. Do you think there might be more Republicans that join those already moving on that front? I doubt that we will see more join in a vote. But certainly, if you talk to people behind closed doors, there are a lot of concerns that are being raised.

13:17This was an administration that came to power saying, you know, there's going to be no more foreign wars. And we've started the year with not only threats, but also the use of American military might. Well, I certainly think for those people who are up for re-election this year, they recognize that there are a lot of concerns among constituents about the direction that the administration is taking and the reversal of the promise not to engage in foreign wars or never-ending wars. Which means we should talk about Iran, a fast-moving situation. As you and I are speaking, President Trump has said that help is on the way for Iranians who are protesting.

14:02What do you think he means by that? It's not clear yet, I think. He has talked about putting tariffs on countries that aid Iran. I think that is something that should be considered because we do want to continue to sanction the regime in Iran for the repressive tactics that they're using against their own people. It's not clear beyond that and beyond diplomacy what else the administration might be thinking about. One concern that I have is that we have some issues that have been raised by Iran watchers who have suggested that military action against the regime in Iran might produce further backlash against demonstrators and also might move demonstrators to be more supportive of Iran.

14:53So the bombings in the country, I think, should be very carefully considered before military action is taken. But on tariffs, this idea of there being a 25 % tariff on goods coming from countries that do business with Iran. That would affect China, but it would also affect other Iranian trading partners, which are U.S. allies, like the United Arab Emirates, like Turkey. It would. And is that still the right thing to do? Well, I think it's one of the things we can consider as we're looking at how to put pressure on the regime in Iran. And I'm not particularly concerned about what happens to China's trade if we put a tariff on their trade to Iran.

15:39And I also think for the UAE, certainly happy to entertain the concerns and to talk about what they might be willing to do to better pressure the Ayatollah and the government of Iran to stop attacking their citizens. Well, on China, it would be a big difference only a couple of months on from the administration's truce on trade with China. which means it's a potential source of economic instability. Is it still worth doing? Well, I think the administration, as we've heard from President Trump, often he makes statements without having a lot of data and discussion to back them up. So it's not at all clear what he might ultimately do.

16:25And certainly we need to have an understanding with China about trade in ways that don't just benefit China, but also address the U.S. concerns about how China is operating.

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18:21Can you let us into your world, Senator? You have long experience on Capitol Hill. You've represented the state of New Hampshire for nearly 17 years in the Senate. When someone as senior as you has these open questions about U.S. policy, what do you do? Is there an open line to your Republican counterparts, or do you try and formally or informally seek some kind of understanding from the White House? How does it work? All of the above. I talk to my colleagues, both Democrat and Republican. I raise concerns when we have hearings or briefings. I send letters to the White House, to administrative agencies.

19:04I try and talk to officials in the administration when I have concerns about policy decisions that they've made. And I try and make the case with reporters in the media when I disagree with actions of the administration. So has this must have been different, by the way? Not just with this administration, but with the Biden administration and with the Obama administration. OK, but obviously it's got to be an easier relationship for you when there's a Democrat in the White House. Well, it's easier, but in some ways it creates more challenges when I criticize my own president than when I criticize the president of the other party.

19:44Help me understand then, as you look back on the period just before this administration, say the last year of the Biden presidency, Do you look back and think, I should have paid more attention or spoken out about the way that President Biden was appearing or how little he was appearing in public? And I could have served my party better by being more open on that situation, his health. Well, I had a number of private conversations with White House staff, with others around the president about my concerns. If I had raised it openly sooner, would that have made a difference? Maybe. I don't know the answer to that.

20:24Have you thought about that a lot? I mean, given how dramatic the last year in terms of the use of executive power by President Trump has been? No, I thought more about the president's illegal use of executive power. And do you have confidence that the courts will start to act on that? I mean, I'm talking about the highest courts, really. We've got the tariff case coming up before the Supreme Court. I don't know the answer to that. I am not an attorney and I'm not an expert on the Supreme Court. I can tell you that there was a lot written after the oral arguments about the IEPA tariffs as to the questions that were raised by various Supreme Court justices that suggested they have real questions about whether those tariffs are legal.

21:15But how they will rule, we'll just have to wait and see. But I wonder how alive you are to people's disappointment, anger even, with how little Congress has been able to do in this past year. There are lots of Democrat voters, we can see it in polls, who are deeply frustrated with the lack of ability for Congress to act on the president's use of such powers? Oh, I certainly share that frustration. I was part of a amicus brief with respect to the tariff issue at the Supreme Court, helped to lead that. I have legislation that would constrain the ability of the president to enact those tariffs. But broader, I appreciate the frustration and share it.

22:04I'll tell you, I deal with it every day. And we think about every day, what can we do to address the policy decisions that this administration is making? But what I say to my Democratic friends is, boy, you better get engaged. You better start working. We've got midterm elections coming up. We had local elections. If you don't like what's going on in this country, you need to get busy and get working. And that's what our democracy is about. You know, when I was in graduate school, I had a professor who used to talk about the fact that we have a revolution in America every four years. It's called the presidential election.

22:44And for a lot of people, they didn't pay a lot of attention. They believed what Donald Trump said when he was campaigning about his focus on domestic issues, about his intent to address cost of living and some of the concerns that people had been experiencing. And sadly, he hasn't done that. So I hope people are paying attention and they're going to work harder in this upcoming election for alternatives. And yet you're still known, aren't you, as one of the bipartisan minded lawmakers on Capitol Hill. You're not a firebrand. You work with Republicans when you want to, when you need to. And I wonder then if you think that what this moment calls for, or 2028 calls for, the next presidential election, because you won't be in the Senate then, you're stepping down.

23:34Is the candidate, the presidential candidate that your party needs more like you, prepared to work across the aisle, or more of the firebrand, the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or the Zoran Mamdani, although he can't run for president? Well, I think that's what the voters are going to decide. Again, one of the great aspects of our presidential selection process for me has been the New Hampshire primary. We were historically the first presidential primary of any state in the country. We were the first to allow direct vote on presidential candidates. And it's been not only fascinating, but I think really important to the presidential selection process to require candidates to engage with voters when they're campaigning so that the candidate who may have the most name recognition, be the best funded, may have been involved the longest, isn't necessarily the candidate that when voters have a chance to talk to and engage with, think is the best person to be president.

24:39And that's what the whole presidential selection process is about. And, you know, my experience is that voters in New Hampshire have really been pretty effective. They picked Jimmy Carter way back when he was running. They picked John McCain when he was running against George W. Bush. They have been quite effective in engaging with candidates and really asking the tough questions and asking for answers for what they would really do if they became president. But you must have an idea, a preference about the kind of candidate that you'd like to see come to the fore in 2028. Well, I'd like to see someone who has executive experience.

25:22I think that's very important to be able to run things. I'd like to see somebody who shares my values with the direction that the country should be taking. And I do think it's important to have someone who is able to talk to those people who don't agree with them. As governor in New Hampshire, I had a legislature that was Republican. And I figured out very early that if I was going to get anything done, I had to figure out how we could work together and how we could compromise. And that's the story of America. You know, America is built on compromise. That's the way Congress is supposed to work.

26:02And it's unfortunate that what we've seen in the last decades has been more and more partisanship at a time when my constituents in New Hampshire say to me, why can't you guys just work together to get things done? But if I may, Senator, I wonder if the rules have completely been upended by the last year and the kind of model you're talking about is an older model. You know, you say the way to get things done is compromise. It's not the way Donald Trump gets things done. Far from it. He doesn't talk to people who don't agree with him. Well, he does a little bit. He called Elizabeth Warren yesterday.

26:35So he's beginning to figure out that he better talk to some of us because he's getting in real trouble when it comes to the American voters. So I do think while he doesn't operate in the same way that our presidents have operated historically, I hope he's an aberration because I don't think that his leadership style is good for America. So do you detect broad signs that there are more Republicans who really want him to get back to affordability and cost of living issues in these months leading up to the midterms? Well, we're seeing some signs. There was a discharge petition in the House that 17 Republicans joined with Democrats to say we need to extend the premium tax credits for health insurance under the Affordable Care Act.

27:29I think that was a sign we saw in the Senate last week, five Republicans break to vote for a war powers resolution that I think was a surprise to the White House. So we are seeing some signs and we've seen a number of people speak out about the Justice Department's investigation of the Federal Reserve Chairman Jay Powell. And they get threatened pretty quickly, don't they, by the president, especially if they're up for re-election when they do say things like that. Well, they do, but it hasn't seemed to deter them so far. Speaking of the Affordable Care Act and health insurance premiums and tax credits or subsidies, you were one of the Democrats who helped bring the federal government shutdown to an end a couple of months ago when you worked on a compromise with your Republican colleagues.

28:16And you were criticized for that. Your own daughter, who's running for a congressional seat herself, felt that she couldn't support the position you've taken. What did you actually get out of that compromise, given that we still don't have a deal on extending those subsidies? Well, we don't yet. I'm still hopeful that we're going to be able to get something done. We've had a working group that's been meeting for about a month now to see if we can't reach a compromise. And we're almost there. So I'm still hopeful that we can get something done. And the reality is that the government shutdown was putting at real risk so many Americans.