‘KPop Demon Hunters’ Creator Maggie Kang on the Global Hit No One Saw Coming

16:28Maggie Kang:Obviously, you've really done that through this. There are children, parents, people of all ages, really, all around the world who consciously or even subliminally have learned things about Korea, your culture, your history through this film. Yeah.

16:44Mishal Husain:And I mean, that's one of the most proud things about that I feel about this film is that every time somebody plays the film on Netflix, they are immersing themselves in Korean culture. And that's really special.

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19:17Maggie Kang:Your parents, what did they want you to grow up to be? Were they trying to push you in a particular direction?

19:23Mishal Husain:Well, I'm the youngest of two kids. And so I didn't get the doctor, lawyer, typical Asian family.

19:30Maggie Kang:I got that.

19:32Mishal Husain:Wanting your kid to be an academic. I didn't get that really. My dad, he has a lot of interests, but fortunate for me, one of his biggest interests is film. He's a huge cinephile and he has a massive collection. of film from directors all over the world. And so at a young age, I was exposed to the best films created, like Curacao Films, Fellini, like Kieslowski, Chaplin, Buster Keaton. So I got this like film schooling at my house. And I think he knew that I wanted to be a storyteller because I I wrote little stories at school too, at a young age. And I would only draw when I had something to say, like it was for these characters or these story moments.

20:20Mishal Husain:And so my dad bought me an animation book, a Disney animation book. And that was the first time I really knew or realized that this could be a career. And so he really supported me down that path. And so they were oddly, the odd Asian parents were very supportive of a child going into the arts. So I'm really grateful that they supported me for that.

20:43Maggie Kang:So you were drawn to animation because you could draw as well as write?

20:49Mishal Husain:Yes, yes. I like to draw and that's what my dad saw. And I think he kind of put those two things together for me. Just the love of film and storytelling and animation.

21:03Maggie Kang:And does it, tell me about the genre and what it gives you. Is there a freedom in animation that you can draw the characters any way you like?

21:11Mishal Husain:Yes, I think there's that. There's also just our process of filmmaking. You can iterate a lot. You can iterate to no end, really. You iterate until your producer says, okay, we're out of money or your time is up and we need to move this into production. And so we always joke that, you know, in animation, you're never done. You just run out of time. So you're able to kind of craft moments and craft it until it's almost perfect. And I think that's what we are striving for in animation is perfection. And it can be dangerous because when you do that and when you rework something, it can feel very labored and feel unnatural.

21:49Mishal Husain:But to make it feel natural, feel spontaneous, it's really tricky. But, you know, we try to strive for that as well.

21:56Maggie Kang:How do you get there to make it feel spontaneous? Let me into your world.

22:03Mishal Husain:um oddly enough it requires re-watching something many many times and sometimes it's it's changing a couple of words that a character would say or the performance of it and some of our process is you know when we work with the actors we take many takes for even a line that's I don't know as simple as hey what are you doing you could say that line in so many different ways and so many different tones. And so we'll get, even for a line that simple, we'll get 20 or 40 different takes of that same line and we'll review every single one of them. And every intonation within that line can change the tone of the entire sentence, the delivery of it.

22:47Maggie Kang:So just imagining the actors being in the room and you taking them through that because you've got to manage their expectations there? Yes. Energy? Like, you know, there probably is a point where you think, I mean, or they're thinking, can I really do it anymore?

23:03Mishal Husain:Oh, I know. And then after you say the same line five or even 10 times, they just become syllables and they just lose all meaning. And I know this because I've done this as well for the movie. It just becomes weird. Like you're just saying, you don't know what you're saying anymore. And it can get that way.

23:21Maggie Kang:I want to know about the music, obviously, because that's such a key part of this. What's the process? You have these songs within the film that have been so incredibly successful in their own right. Golden is the most obvious one, but there are others like Take Down. Do you give the songwriters a brief, I want a certain kind of song for this moment in the film, and then they're kind of trying songs out on you?

23:46Mishal Husain:It was a very long process. I'll use Golden as an example. When we are working on our film, we work on something called a reel, a story reel. And it's all storyboards. It's all hand drawn. And we have story artists who create these drawings that represent the finished movie. So they are thinking about what the camera shot is, what the action is in that moment. So they draw out the characters moving. And it's not really animated. I would say it's like one drawing every, two drawings per second, let's say something like that. And then we have an editor who cuts all those drawings and makes this real.

24:23Mishal Husain:And then we have temp music, temp dialogue, temp effect sounds. And we basically just mock up the film that we envisioned for the final. And that is what keeps getting updated and reviewed until it is ready to be animated. And so during that process, we pick a song that is already existing in the world. So a pop song, and we'll drop it into the moment just for vibes to see if this is the right kind of song that we want. So based on that song, we will create an original song that is more in tune with what we would like it to kind of be emotionally and suiting the story.

25:03Maggie Kang:Right. So in a way, maybe it's not the right thing to think of it as a soundtrack. You are thinking of the songs as an integral part of the story. And I think we see that in Golden because there's a moment within it, which is a kind of darker, more troubled moment for Rumi.

25:24Mishal Husain:Yes, we make these long written documents. And for Golden, it was about six pages. And it was very late in the process that we realized that Golden needed to be a song that just gave us a little clue of each of the girls' backstories.

25:44Mishal Husain:So we would write that down and write a backstory for Mira, for Zoe, for Rumi. The song is about, we are this amazing group of women. We are this amazing group Huntrix.

26:00Mishal Husain:But this is where we came from. We kind of came from nothing and now we are here, but we are striving for more. That is really the story of Golden. And then Rumi, within that, has her own personal story. And so we would write that in a document very literally. And then we would hand that off to the lyricists. And it's their job to take a paragraph of just dry information and distill it down into, I don't know, 20 words that are like pop lyrics. And that's a very hard job to do. And then the track is also made at the same time. And we listen to a few tracks. And Chris and I didn't really approve any song until we felt the tingles, like the butterflies in our stomach.

26:42Mishal Husain:Because that is also the whole point of this movie is to show that music has this power to make us feel.

26:55Mishal Husain:And so those things come together.

26:57Maggie Kang:Chris Applehands, your co-director is obviously at the heart of this. One of the important things about this is that your characters are away from stereotypes about race and Asian characters that we still see often in movies, like they're very studious or they're like model, you know, model people without flaws. But I did want to ask you one thing about the portrayal of women, because they are really strong, complex, interesting women. They're all drawn very thin, as female characters tend to be. Why is that? Did you think about drawing them differently?

27:38Mishal Husain:We did. But, you know, we were very much on the aesthetics of the film. We were very much inspired by anime films. So we just leaned into those aesthetics. We are just fans of that kind of style of Sailor Moon, Cowboy Bebop. And those are the kind of anime films that we grew up with. So it's an homage to those designs.

27:59Maggie Kang:But given you have all of these girls, young women watching.

28:05Mishal Husain:Yes. But, you know, within those characters, we worked very hard to distinguish them. And I think Zoe in particular, you know, we gave her a little thicker legs and a bottom. And so we do feel like we hit those little differences.

28:22Maggie Kang:Yeah. I mean, the film's come out at a moment where the world is in the midst of, well, Mark Carney, when he came on this podcast, said in the middle of a rupture, and your characters are trying to save their world, right? The demons that they're slaying are trying to destroy everything around them. How do you feel about the way that audiences will be seeing it at this moment in time, given what we're seeing unfold?

28:54Mishal Husain:So when we were very deep into the writing process, even in the first draft, the movie ended with this big concert number.

29:06Mishal Husain:and we knew that it would be a performance where the girls would start kind of be reunited and the final kind of stage would be the entire stadium full of fans contributing into the song and singing it to defeat the demons

29:31Mishal Husain:And, you know, we kind of worried if it was a little cheesy. And was it a little cheesy to make a movie about the power of music?

29:47Mishal Husain:But it was during COVID time. And a lot of groups, especially BTS specifically, had this online concert where they would perform. And I don't know, millions of people around the world were tuning in to watch this one concert. And I remember there was this shot where they're on the stage and the back behind them, there were all these faces of the audience that were tuning in. And it was just incredible to see, even in the dark time like COVID, where we were all huddled in our own private spaces, that there was this unifying force of music just uniting people and bringing joy to people at this dark time.

30:28Mishal Husain:And that really told us that this moment could really land. And so I feel like that is what's happening now with the release of the movie. people are kind of coming together and being able to celebrate and share this experience of this movie with together. And I think that's what the movie is doing. And that's something that only art can really do is unite people, no matter what your background is. And no matter if you don't speak the same language, everybody kind of speaks the language of music and knows what that feels like.

30:59Maggie Kang:Yeah. I was thinking, listening to the songs, which are English, but they've got words and phrases of Korean in them, that people are singing along and there are words they might not understand within the song and it doesn't matter, they can still enjoy it. And what a contrast that is to something like the Super Bowl, which we've just seen, where the use of Spanish is to some people really controversial.

31:20Mishal Husain:You know, I just feel like art just speaks to you no matter what language it is in. And I think that's the beauty of art. And so we just really should embrace that. Yeah, it's just such a powerful medium.

31:33Maggie Kang:Yeah. And you, I mean, you were a fan of K-pop or it was, you know, part of your tradition long before the rest of the world had discovered it. You were born in the 1980s. And have you through this helped deliver a key moment for K-pop, which is also about further opening this gateway to its growth in the rest of the world?

31:56Mishal Husain:That's what they tell me. I've met a lot of the labels. There's four major labels of K-pop in Korea. And I've met with all of them. And they're so grateful that K-pop has just kind of reached another level, I think. And there's so many fans that I meet that tell me I didn't even know what K-pop was. Or I had no interest in it. And this movie really let me down a path of K-pop. And now I'm a big fan. And the fandom allows them not just to enjoy the music, but just want to learn more about the culture and experience other K content like the movies or K beauty or K food. And so I think it's just a beautiful way for people to just find our culture.

32:43Mishal Husain:So, yes, I definitely feel like it's helped K-pop, but also just other aspects of our culture as well. Yeah.

32:49Maggie Kang:And you've been very deliberate about it because obviously K-pop is in the title of the film and that would have been a draw to many people who know what it is, but it could have been a barrier to others. So in a way you took a risk by doing that.

33:02Mishal Husain:Yes, we did. Yes. We talked about that for about a year while we were finishing up the movie, what the title could be. Because this was always the working title of the movie. But we went down a lot of different routes with the title, but we couldn't land on anything that felt right. So ultimately, we just landed back on the working title. And, you know, it's a little cheesy. I have to admit, it really is. But I think that's what the movie is a little bit. It's it's it there's some kind of silly moments to the film tonally. It's a mashup of a lot of different things and it's a little kooky. And because of that, I think the title kind of fits it.

33:43Maggie Kang:Yeah, well, it definitely the title does what it says, right? That is the film.

33:47Mishal Husain:And also despite the title. These are the elements of the film. Despite the title, I feel like people and I've been told that as well. It's like I didn't want to watch it because of the title, but.

33:56Maggie Kang:There must be some vindication for you, Maggie, in that one of the great things about this is that people weren't really expecting it to be the runaway success that it was, right? A lot of retailers didn't buy into the merchandise. They're like catching up with the merchandise. Sony made it but sold the rights to Netflix. Are there people at Sony who are regretting that? Maybe.

34:22Mishal Husain:I mean, we produced a movie at Sony, so I think we're all celebrating the movie and the success there. But yes, we were definitely the underdog. There was no marketing for the movie. And I think we were fortunate to have a really good trailer that really told the audience what the movie was going to be and what the tone of the movie was going to be. And, you know, when you're an underdog, you don't have a lot of eyes on you, so you can get away with some things. And that's what some of my director friends ask me. They said, how did you get away with some of these things that you did in the movie?

34:54Mishal Husain:But, you know, we had a we had a core group from the very beginning. And one of them was Christine Belson, the president of Sony Animation. She was a firm believer in this film and really supported it. So and the support of the fans.

35:08Maggie Kang:But there must have been frustrations along the way. Right. I'm just imagining you've pulled your heart and soul into the film and then you don't have a marketing budget or much of a marketing budget. You know, I mean, that's got to be tough at the time.

35:21Mishal Husain:It was. It was tough. It was really tough. But it was just tough all the way through. But I always thought back to the moment where I knew that we got the green light. And that happened during COVID. And it was during a time where the movie industry was already pretty uncertain. And putting movies in theaters was a little uncertain. And COVID made that even worse. But then to be given an opportunity during those hard times to make a movie, let alone a personal film about my own culture, an original that's not a sequel. And so I was just grateful to just complete a film and to release it. And I believed in the movie when we finished.

36:04Mishal Husain:I really loved the movie myself and our team did too. And so we really believed that if an audience will find it, then it could do okay. And they did. They found it right away.

36:18Maggie Kang:Would you have liked it to be in cinemas, movie theaters, for longer, Maggie? Because the future of those places depends on having the films that get people in the door. And the sing-along release, it was a very short time that people could see it on the big screen.

36:36Mishal Husain:Yes. As somebody who's working in Hollywood, you know, we don't want to see theaters die. I think that experience is unlike anything else. It's like going to a concert. You're sharing art with strangers and you're connecting with them. Even though you may not be talking to people that are sitting next to you, there's something about being around fellow humans and experiencing something new and learning something new. A theater experience is unlike anything else. So I would hate to see that disappear. But with that said, the way that people are consuming content, especially the younger generations, has changed.

37:13Mishal Husain:We tend to absorb content on our phones and our iPads all alone. And without the fans, a movie like this that's on a streaming platform couldn't have gotten this big. It was all word of mouth and content being created by the fans and that being shared and talked about on social media. So I don't know. it's still a big question mark for me, but I do think the two can coexist and I would love to see a world where that could happen.

37:38Maggie Kang:Well, maybe what you've done might make someone like Ted Sarandos of Netflix think that what he said about the movie theater being outmoded is not necessarily right.

37:48Mishal Husain:Yes. I'll try to talk to Ted about that.

37:55Maggie Kang:Speaking of fans, I love the way that the film has fans like, you know, Huntrick's fans right at the heart of it. And then you're talking now about the fans of the film and of you. So do you have a message for them about what is going to come next? What is the next iteration of K-pop Demon Hunters from Maggie Kang? Oh, I don't know.

38:18Mishal Husain:I don't know what I will do next. I really don't. I can't really share that at the moment. But there's a sequel, surely. I mean, I can't really say that officially, but I would say I would be shocked if, I mean, in a world where that loves sequels, I don't think it's a surprise that something else could be coming. But I don't know, it's going to be a long wait for anything, unfortunately, because animation just takes a long time.

38:46Maggie Kang:Does it have to be animation? What about a live action version?

38:52Mishal Husain:I really think there's so much that the animation medium brings to the film, the tone of the movie, the types of characters we were able to create, the type of comedy that we were able to push, the drama. So I firmly believe that the movie couldn't have seen the success if it was live action. And so because of that, I would like to stick to animation. But also that is why I love animation. I aspire to also do live action someday, but they are two very different mediums. And animation is globally successful and is able to be successful with multiple demographics for a reason. And I truly believe that it's a special medium that in many ways can be just so much more impactful than live action.

39:39Maggie Kang:Well, what else could be part of this ecosystem? I wonder if you dream of a franchise like the Marvel films or if you're thinking about live events like Bridgerton have. And, you know, there are so many dimensions that you could take great characters and storytelling in. What do you dream of?

40:00Mishal Husain:Yeah, there is. And I think it's every filmmaker's dream to have an IP that can live for generations and we can share with our children, like The Little Mermaid and Lion King and Frozen. So that's always a dream. So I'd love to see that. We have a lot of merch coming up, which is very exciting for the fans too.

40:19Maggie Kang:Yeah. Well, again, that's catch up, right? Because people did not necessarily order it early on. What about the impact on you, Maggie? If I'd met you this time last year, how different a person were you before this huge thing that you've created hit the world?

40:36Mishal Husain:You know, I feel like I'm still very grounded. Like this whole experience has been amazing, but I'm still at heart a storyteller and a creator. And although this awards run has been amazing and fun, I just can't wait to dive right back into another movie and figure something out for the world to share.

40:56Maggie Kang:Into the sequel, I'm imagining.

41:00Mishal Husain:I'm sure that's what a lot of people hope.

41:04Maggie Kang:And how are you preparing for Oscar night? Will you be nervous? Will you be apprehensive before a big, big moment like that?

41:13Mishal Husain:Oh, you know, I hadn't really been thinking about it. But yesterday we had the Oscars luncheon where we celebrated every single nominee. And that was really special. I didn't I actually didn't know that that was part of the program where they announce every person individually. And when your name is called, you go and stand. And that's where they place you for that big class photo. And it was such a special moment. And it was so amazing to just share that moment with fellow nominees and get to know them and meet them. And I think that really told me like, wow, you are going to the Oscars. This event that you've been watching on TV with your family for decades, you will be going there and you may go on that stage.

41:55Mishal Husain:And that just really hit me, made it really real. And so I'm just going to enjoy every single moment, every single second of it. And I'm just very excited to be part of that, this legacy of the Oscars and get into history books, no matter what happens on March 15th. You know, me and K-pop team managers are on there, you know, so I'm very proud of that.

42:19Maggie Kang:I suspect it won't be the only time that you go to the Oscars as a nominee.

42:25Mishal Husain:I hope, I hope. I hope to see the same success with a live action movie. Yes, one day.

42:33Maggie Kang:Very best of luck for the Oscars, Maggie. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you. Thank you so much.

42:41Maggie Kang:And there she goes, onwards to the Oscars. By the way, do listen out for news of any sequel because it is very much a live discussion for fans and the industry. And it seems pretty clear from what Maggie said there will be one. The question is when. And that's where we leave things this week. Our email is michelshow at bloomberg.net. That's a way you can let us know what you thought of this conversation or others, or who you'd like to hear me speaking to next. Also, don't forget you can watch the whole episode on YouTube and you can find a version to read with photos and my notes at bloomberg.com slash weekend.

43:26Maggie Kang:The show's producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlou. The video producer is Andy Haywood. Social media is by Alex Morgan. Production support from Jennifer Seeley. Audio mixing and editing by Richard Ward. Our music is by Bart Walshaw. And the executive producer is Louisa Lewis. We're part of Bloomberg Weekend, where Brendan Francis Newnham is editorial director of Audio and Special Projects. And our executive editor is Catherine Bell. Until next time, goodbye.

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