María Corina Machado Believes US Pressure on Maduro Is the Only Way

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1:51Let's create smarter business. IBM. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. I believe that the increase in pressure and the escalation that's taking place is the only way to force Maduro to understand that it's time to go. Maria Corina Machado. Activist, politician, and now winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. Isn't the fact that you, to achieve the peaceful transition that you describe, you need the U.S. military? Well, I think that history has demonstrated that that's correct. We have everything and we are ready to take our government. From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Michelle Hussain Show.

2:43I'm Michelle Hussain.

2:48What does it take to maintain a political campaign in a highly repressive society where a single party has been in power for nearly 30 years? That was on my mind as I went into this latest conversation. It's with the woman who would be Venezuela's president right now, had she not been barred from standing by Nicolas Maduro, the longtime leader of the country. He is widely regarded to have rigged an election last year, but even that had faded from international attention until something remarkable happened a couple of months ago. The United States started bombing boats off the coast of Venezuela, saying that they were carrying drugs.

3:31And since then, it has begun a massive military escalation in the region, sending sailors, marines, warships, and fighter jets there. All of that means it's a pretty extraordinary moment to be talking to the woman who three weeks ago won the Nobel Peace Prize. She's a Venezuelan opposition leader. I wondered, of course, how a Nobel Peace Laureate views military escalation and the risk of US military intervention. I wondered, too, what kind of a leader Maria Karina Machado would be herself if she got the chance. She is from the right of politics. She's remained inside Venezuela when many opposition figures have left the country.

4:15And when we spoke, I felt she was pinning her hopes on this being a moment of regime change. She spoke of last chances, last opportunities for Nicolas Maduro to go. But we began with her own circumstances because they are extreme. For more than a year, she's had to live in hiding inside Venezuela because of the risk of arrest. Last year, we had an incredible event. We won an election, a presidential election by a landslide under extreme unfair conditions. And after that happened, the Maduro regime unleashed the worst repression campaign in Venezuelan history. I'm talking about thousands of people that were detained, tortured, disappeared, even children, women abused, everything.

5:10Our friends, our colleagues are either in jail or have to be in hiding or have left the country. So I was accused of terrorism by Nicolás Maduro. and I had to go into hiding. It's almost 15 months. I am in absolute isolation on my own. And, well, of course, I am conscious that if they find me, well, at least they would disappear me. That's what they've said. And what is the impact of getting the Peace Prize on that situation? Does it give you more protection because you have a higher international profile or does it put you at more risk? I think it certainly gives us a higher protection, not only me, but also my colleagues that are fighting around the country because, as you said, it brings the attention of the whole world to a just, noble, courageous fight.

6:12And at the same time, you know, it creates more pressure on the regime in terms of increasing the cost of repression. That, you know, until these days, For years, we've been trying the world to understand, you know, that the cost of repression has to be increased. Maduro has felt that they are totally, you know, they have no cost. They can disappear, torture, killed, and the cost will be zero. But the time of impunity, it's over. So this has had an impressive effect on the moral of the Venezuelan people. People are singing, cheering, celebrating, and feeling that it is also a recognition that brings us even further together.

6:59And yet isn't there a move in the last few days to strip you of your citizenship? Well, they have done everything you can think about. I mean, this is something that it's not only unconstitutional. This is absurd. But frankly, I think it is a reflection of how desperate the regime is. how weak the regime is, and the kind of mistakes they're making, because this only furthers, as I say, the consciousness of the world that this is an urgent conflict that has to be solved. And the U.S. certainly sees it that way at the moment, doesn't it? We've seen this very striking move in the last few months, the military buildup in the Caribbean with the world's biggest warship being on its way there, just the latest demonstration of that.

7:47I want to ask you about the strikes the US has carried out on boats in the Caribbean, described as being strikes on drug cartels. What is your position on the deaths that have happened in that way? Look, Michelle, as I was saying, for years, we were, you know, asking the world to understand the degree of the threat and this devastation the Maduro regime was building in Venezuela. I mean, Venezuela has been turned into the safe heaven for the activities of all criminal international networks, from the drop portails to the Colombian guerrilla, to those groups that smuggle gold and destroy communities of our indigenous people and the ecology, to redworks that smuggle arms and even human trafficking and child prostitution.

8:46This is horrible, what we're living. Russian agents, Iranian agents freely operating in Venezuela. Hezbollah and Hamas being located in our country. And as any criminal structure works, the moment you start, you know, weakening them and they falling apart is when you cut the sources of their and the inflows of their criminal activities. And we have asked for years, the international community, to cut these sources that come from drug trafficking and other criminal activities. Finally, this is happening. So you think those killings are justified then? That's what I really want to understand. Are they justified or are they, as the UN would say, extrajudicial killings?

9:34This is about saving lives. And Maduro is absolutely conscious, and he has been warned what not to do. These deaths are the responsibility of Nicolás Maduro. He knows, and the rest of the drug cartels that is in power in Venezuela, that they should stop these activities in order to prevent more deaths, not only of the Venezuelan people, but also from people all around the country. Look, this is very important. We don't want war. It was Maduro who started this war. But I still want to understand how you see the deaths of those individuals, many of them believed to be Venezuelan, who were on those boats when they were struck by the US and mostly in the Caribbean and a few in the Pacific.

10:24You are someone who stands for people's rights, for the rights of Venezuelans, for their democratic rights, for their human rights. What about the rights to due process of the people who were on those boats? I certainly defend the rights of everyone, not only Venezuelans. That's why my voice has been, you know, loud all along this process. But you need to understand, all the international community need to understand, that this is a very cruel war. It was Maduro who turned this into an international conflict. Look, when you face... So are those people expendable? That's really what I'm wondering.

11:02Are those people expendable on the boats? It was Maduro who insisted on maintaining operations that have consequences. It is Maduro that started a war against other countries, knowing that that would have consequences. I am talking about This process is about saving lives, millions of lives. That's what we need to do. I mean, we have been for years explaining the degree of crimes against humanity that take place in Venezuela and that need to be stopped. It is systematic. It's massive. It needs to be stopped. Finally, finally, there is a reaction from international coalition that is calling things by their names.

11:53Maidudo is not a conventional dictator. We are facing a narco-terrorist structure that has turned Venezuelan territory, Venezuelan resources, Venezuelan institutions, and have turned them to the favor, to the activities of a criminal cartel. And this language you use, narco-terrorism, this is exactly the language that the Trump administration uses about Venezuela. And President Trump is saying after the boat strikes, the land will be next. Do you support U.S. military strikes on the territory of Venezuela as part of what you call a process? I believe that the increase in pressure and the escalation that's taking place is the only way to force Maduro to understand that it's time to go.

12:43And those that still support him, which are very few at this moment, the top brass of the military, financial enablers, you know, front men that are making huge, obscene fortunes with the hunger of our people, better understand that, you know, time is running off. And I believe that this escalation is the last opportunity for those that still support Maduro to understand that they need to put aside, take all support away from him and Maduro himself to understand that this is the last chance to truly facilitate a peaceful and ordinary transition, which is what we want, which is what we fought for.

13:27Michelle, I ask you to understand what we the Venezuelan people have done. We've got over 35 rigged elections. We finally demonstrated we won and then we were attacked. We've gone through 17 episodes of dialogue in every single one Maduro has committed to certain actions and then he has violated the agreement. And also we have hundreds, thousands of protests, peaceful rallies, demonstrations. And every single time that happens, we are fired. So we've come and gone through every single institutional means. But which is exactly why it seems that what you are still saying, that you would prefer a peaceful exit of Nicolas Maduro, seems so unlikely.

14:25Are you actually saying you've reached the point where you think this regime can only be ended by U.S. military force? Well, that will depend on what the regime does in the days to come. I think it was absolutely indispensable to have a credible threat. I think it was absolutely required to cut the sources of illegal activities because those resources don't go to schools or hospitals. They are used for repression, for persecution, and certainly for corruption, and also for enlarging, scaling up their criminal activities. Who are you in touch with in the administration? Who are you having these conversations with most these days?

15:08I will not get into those details, Michelle, for obvious reasons. I have to say and insist that I've been in contact not only with several officials in the U.S. government, but also in other countries, in Canada, in Latin America, in the Caribbean, and certainly Europe as well. But it's the Secretary of State who feels the most strongly. Oh, I certainly believe the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is one of the people in the administration that better understand the threats that are posed into Latin America and from our region towards the United States. And are you in regular touch with him? I have been in touch with him, of course, and with his team.

15:52And I have to say even further in Congress, on both aisles, you know, on both parties, we have really good friends and champions of our cause. And have they said to you? You know, I want to say something. This goes beyond ideological issues. I mean, it is certainly a matter of national security of the United States and hemispheric security. But it also brings, and I want to insist on this, the biggest opportunity for democracy, for stability, and for peace in our region. You know, a transition to democracy in Venezuela will not only mean that we will stop the suffering of millions of my fellow countrymen that are dying, as we speak.

16:41Poverty in Venezuela today is 86%. Pensions in Venezuela are less than a dollar a month. Or children go only twice a week to public schools. I mean, this is a whole generation that is growing with hunger, without education, and without their parents because they have been forced to leave. Half the country living in extreme poverty. Absolutely. And so we will stop this suffering. We will bring, and the people is the main priority for us. We will bring opportunities. We will bring peace and freedom and respect and solidarity. But at the same time, we will turn this criminal hub in the heart of the Americas because Venezuela's location is absolutely unparalleled.

17:34I mean, it's strategic into a security shield and a great ally of Western democracies. We will dismantle these groups. We will get rid of Russian, Iranian and terrorist actors in our territory. These are very big goals, what you're describing. I want to understand this. Your conversations with the administration, have they told you to be ready to become the leader of Venezuela? Oh, absolutely not. The leader of Venezuela was chosen by our people a year ago. So we have a president. Who stood in for you? OK, but have they told your team to be ready for an opposition president? Do you get the feeling that the U.S.

18:21is about to bring about regime change? Is that what you have been told? No, I've not been told that. And it's not regime change in, you know, the conventional way that we've seen before in terms of an external actor taking out a legitimate president. That is not the case. First, because Maduro is not the legitimate president. He is the head of a cartel of the sons. He is the head of a narcoterrorist structure. Secondly, because regime change was mandated and proved a year ago on July 28, 2024. It's important to recall that we went into election, a presidential election, in which I was banned from participating after I won the primaries by a landslide.

19:10And Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia received 70 % of the votes. And we were able to prove it. 24 hours later, we have the original Charlie Sheets, you know, published in a super robust web page that was scrutinized and analyzed by the whole world. So the legitimate president-elect of Venezuela is Edlundo González Urugia. So this is not regime change. This is enforcing the will of the Venezuelan people. Yes. But you see, you did all of that and then nothing changed. Nicolás Maduro declared victory anyway. And what if, again, you are left in this moment where there is no change? Perhaps because the administration changes its mind.

19:57And the previous approach to Venezuela, the more pragmatic approach to Venezuela, which is more into the deals over the oil and more of the exporting of Venezuelan oil, which Chevron, a U.S. company, continues to do. What if you're left high and dry where President Trump loses interest in Venezuela? The thing here is that from every perspective that you look at this, at what's going on in Venezuela, it is convenient for everyone to have a peaceful transition. First, because one of the main concerns in the region is migration. You know, almost 9 million, a third of our population have been forced to flee for survival.

20:39The minute Madura goes, millions will start planning and coming back home. So that's one side. Secondly, from what you mentioned from the energy security and business perspective, Venezuela is today in the last place in terms of rule of law globally. Last place. who is going to invest, you know, the kind of amount of money to develop our opportunities under these circumstances. You would have to actually partner with a criminal cartel if you invest in Venezuela nowadays, one that has, you know, confiscated and robbed private, local, and international companies. We have in Venezuela the largest oil reserves, proven oil reserves, in the world, the eighth reservoir of natural gas, huge potential in electricity, gold, critical minerals, and so on.

21:42This can only be unleashed with a society, with a government that brings order to this chaos, that open markets, that brings rule of law, that is friendly to international investment. And then a country that is producing less than 1 million barrels a day could reach four, five or six in a decade. And I know your prescription, your economic prescription for Venezuela would be one of rapid privatization. But I look at these statistics of the huge proportion of the country that's living in poverty, people breaking up their furniture and burning it so that they can cook their meals. And I have to wonder about the people who might be left behind in a big program of privatization, perhaps creating an oligarchy in Venezuela.

22:34How would you ensure that that doesn't happen? That's a super important point, Shell, because the base of our movement have been precisely the most humble and vulnerable sectors of society. It is impressive. You know, I was told when we started the movement two and a half years ago, we went back to, you know, the most rural sectors, that it wasn't possible to bring back together a country that had been divided by the Chavista regime in so many dimensions. You know, racial, rich and poor, black and white, those living in urban areas, those in rural sectors. And we went out, rich out, and tear down those barriers around values, common values.

23:24And you know what? The most single strong force and desire that brought us together was we want our children back home. Those that have left, we want them back home. And that's the long that every single Venezuelan mother has today. And that's our mandate. You need to attract those people. Yeah, but precisely what we have learned is that system that Maduro has put in Chavez in place, you know, this Chavista socialism. They do want people to be equal, equally poor, equally dependent on the regime. They need people to be uneducated. They need people to live, you know, in sadness because families are separated.

24:13In order to have a country to be able to compete and to have opportunities for all, we need to invest in education, in health, in social opportunities. And of course, we need investments. We need huge investments that will create employment in our country. And I tell you, I won my primary process with 93%. And I was precisely promoting these ideas, to defend private property, to give opportunity to all, to not let one child behind. And that's precisely what's going to be our priority. President Millet in Argentina, who you have politically and ideologically something in common with, you're both from the political right, what he is doing in Argentina involves the free market.

25:06It also involves a lot of austerity. And Venezuelans, after suffering for so many years under Chavez in Maduro, they wouldn't be signed up to austerity, would they? No, what we have called our economy problem is stabilization and expansion, okay, Which means we need to put, first of all, we need to put order. Currently, nobody knows what are the level of Venezuelan reserves. What is our debt? How much do we export? What is our budget? It's a black box. And we need to put order so that we can open markets and create opportunities for all. Certainly in the first moments of this transition, we will need to invest heavily, not only in infrastructure and public services, health, water, power, power supply, which we have shortages today all along the country, and certainly take care of the most vulnerable sectors of our population, which we have already identified.

26:11and we have designed emergency plans to have transfers, direct transfers to these sectors that are in a critical situation while the economy moves ahead. If you get the chance, and it is still a big if. We will. We will. I'm still not sure what gives you so much confidence. Let me tell you something. All my life, but mostly in the last three years, I've been told that everything we were doing was impossible. That, you know, we simply should give up and accept that Venezuela had been destroyed for good. That it was impossible to get a country back together with hope. That it was impossible to carry out a primary process without the regime stopping it.

27:01that it was impossible to defeat Maduro and even further to prove it. And it was impossible to resist these 15 months of the worst repression we've seen ever. And our people have demonstrated such huge resilience, courage. But you have not overthrown him. It's really important to have that reality check. You have not overthrown him. Not yet.

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29:24What are you planning to do within the country next? Are you going to call people out on the streets? We have been organizing these last months. as we built an impressive citizen network last year with over one million volunteers. That's been a case study so far for people in different parts of the world that are asking us, getting our advice and learning from what we did. And the regime didn't see it coming. Using technology, by the way. And that's, you know, for another long conversation because it's remarkable what we were able to do. Now, these last months, we've been organizing as well. You know, underground, taking, you know, care of each other, finding ways to communicate safely.

30:20It's a totally decentralized structure. I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of people in communication in real time in order to assure that we will have a peaceful transition. Because, you know, I've heard so many concerns regarding what this group might do or Maduro would like or certain, you know, head of state. And always they miss the most important force here, which is the people. 90 % of Venezuelan people are together. This is the most cohesive society in the world without, you know, racial, religious, social tensions. So, you know, the guarantee that this will be irreversible and stable is the people.