Netflix’s ‘Cover-Up’ Director Laura Poitras on ICE, ‘Domestic Terrorists’ and US Surveillance

25:26It's different times. The first time it happened, I was transiting in Vienna. I was asked to report to security. All of my luggage was taken. I was put in a van. I was taken to an x-ray area. Everything was searched. I was questioned by the head of security at the airport in Vienna. And ultimately, and I was there going to a film festival, a film festival in Sarajevo. And then I said, what are you doing? He said, well, you're on a list. And I said, I'm on a list. Whose list? He said, your country's list. And he said that we have a threat scale from one to 400 and that I was at 400 on their threat scale.

26:01So that was intimidating. And, you know, I kept traveling. I was twice told I couldn't board a plane. So I wasn't on the full no-fly list, but I was on a terrorist watch list. And then at some point, in 2012, I decided to leave the United States to work because I felt I couldn't work safely going through this border. And I was working on a film. So I relocated to Berlin. And I was there sort of in exile for three years, not working in the U.S. I mean, it's very sobering hearing you describe it. And I think you did in the end get an acknowledgement from the U.S. government over it. But I do want to say that they didn't volunteer to tell me that I was on a terrorist watch list.

26:47I had to sue the government, which I did. The EFF, a great organization, they represented me and we sued for a FOIA case. And so I have, I got back about a thousand documents of my FBI file, heavily redacted. There was a grand jury subpoena. All of my emails, bank records, et cetera, had been subpoenaed. So yeah, so it's not, I know I was on the list. What was it like reading, even redacted reading that FBI file? I mean, there was a part of me that was a relief because it's just, it's validation. And you see the extent of it. I mean, they were sending FBI agents to my film screenings and they're writing up reports of what I said in conversation.

27:23So it was validating. I knew it was happening. I had the evidence, but because the government would never acknowledge it, it was validating. And, you know, as a filmmaker and as an artist, I used it in my work. I mean, I hung it on museum walls. And I talk about it a lot because usually the people who are put in these lists aren't white women who've won journalism awards and film awards. Muslim men, usually. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think it will help people understand what you put into the film that you made about Edward Snowden, Citizen Four, because he is the former CIA contractor who revealed the extent of mass surveillance.

28:05by first coming to you you were the person that he reached out to tell us about that how did he first contact you what did he say yeah so so ed he was part he's in the military he's in cia then he was at nsa and so he was that's when he was became aware of the extent of u.s military global surveillance he knew i was being surveilled because i made a short film about it about an nsa a mathematician. And I was in Berlin and I think he knew that I knew about surveillance and that I knew how dangerous it was and that I'd been directly impacted. And I also had a lot of skills in terms of encryption and source protection because I had to.

28:50I had to, you know, once you're stopped at the airport a few times and your computer, you know, and your phone are taken away from you, you learn how to encrypt, you learn how to protect things, you learn. And I had a lot of skills in terms of encryption technology. He didn't reach out to me because I was a filmmaker, actually. He wasn't interested in any way in me making a film. He saw me as somebody who would, that I could protect him and collaborate with news organizations to break the story. So that was his motivation. But you did trust Laura, did you, that he was genuine? Or did you think this or some kind of ruse or scam, given what you were living through at the time?

29:31Yeah, I had a spectrum of reactions. One was, I think it's legit, and holy s***, or I don't know what I can say on your podcast, I think this is legit, we're in danger, a lot of danger. Then there was another part of me was, it really could be an FBI entrapment, because the FBI does do that, so I better be careful in terms of what I say. And at the time, I had been documenting WikiLeaks and Julian Assange. So I was like, I think it's right. I think he's legit. Could be an FBI or he could be a crazy. He could just be somebody who doesn't know anything. But I basically assumed that it was legit and went into a very extreme mode of digital security at that point.

30:15We communicated through encrypted email, but never would I log into my home network. I had a separate computer that was purchased with cash. I would go to random. I was in Berlin at the time. Go to random cafes, use the internet there. Never, ever, you know, it's called what Snowden would call is you disassociate your metadata or you divorce your metadata. So what's connected to your phone is not connected to these communications. And we, but I didn't know. I mean, for, it took five months and then I finally saw a document And the documents were staggering. I mean, really staggering. And you ended up being part of putting them out into the public domain, working with other journalists, meeting Snowden himself for the first time.

31:02Of course, he then went on to get asylum in Russia, a country that is far from free, where there is no real freedom of expression. There is such an irony in that. Yeah, well, I mean, as it's been well reported, He was actually on his way to get to, I think, Ecuador. He had gotten an offer of asylum there, and he was in transit, and the U.S. revoked his passport. So he had a flight onward. I mean, there are all the images of the journalists who were going to go with him. There was a leg from Moscow to Cuba. So he was not planning to seek asylum in Russia, but the U.S. stranded him there. And once he was stranded there, he did seek asylum.

31:42And the U.S. also put, I mean, the global pressure on all of its European allies not to provide asylum was profoundly intense. And are you still in touch with him? I am. Yeah. I'm on the board of the Freedom of the Press Foundation. We provide digital security training for journalists. We have a secure drop, which is a system for sources to anonymously leak to newspapers that has been sort of set up in every major news organization in the U.S. and internationally. And so, yes, he's on the board and his partner, you know, it's in the film, but his partner went to Russia and they're together. So he's, you know, I'm very happy he's not in a U.S.

32:22prison. I can tell you that. The reasons he ultimately agreed for me to film him is because I convinced him that he needed to explain his motivation for exposing this information around global mass surveillance. Because if he didn't, then the government was going to create the narrative, you know. And the reason he did it is that he doesn't want to live in a world where everything is surveilled. He believes that the public should know the extent of its surveillance programs. And there was such a huge outcry about it at the time, thanks to his work, thanks to your work. And yet, look at where we are today.

33:00In many ways, haven't most of us normalized surveillance because we're surrounded by CCTV and facial recognition. Technology has moved on so much. And this is reality. And we assume we're being surveilled all the time. I mean, I have a few responses to that. One is, I don't think that, then what does that mean? We shouldn't, as journalists, inform the public. And I know you're not saying that, but I do think that there are tools we can use. Like as a journalist, you might have Signal on your phone, which is an encrypted app. Okay, you use Signal. Did you use Signal before you heard of Edward Snowden's name?

33:35No, you probably didn't. No, did it exist before that time? There were technologies. Okay. Yeah. So I think that there are ways in which we know the dangers of these devices. And yes, of course, I mean, surveillance is ubiquitous. And, you know, I think we need to, people should know their rights. And there are ways you can opt out. Like when you go to the, at least as a U.S. citizen, they want to do the biometric scan. I opt out. People don't know they can opt out of those things. There are certain things you can opt out and try to harden your security. But yes, and of course, and then you have also all the tech companies that are surveilling us.

34:08But that's why, Laura, I guess what I wonder about is whether a lot of the things you care about, and I understand why you care about them, and they are really important, and your work has been incredibly valuable. But isn't the battle lost on some of those? I mean, I don't know to what extent a younger generation would particularly care about their data being used. I think they do. Because they want the free, or some of them, because they want the free services that come with that. I think if you're planning to participate in a demonstration right now in this country, I think you're going to care about how to avoid being surveilled.

34:39I mean, I think it really is, if you're living in a regime of authoritarian regime, you know about how, you know, dangerous surveillance is. I think that it really is a question of where you, if you perceive your government as a threat to you, is the answer to that question. And I mean, I'm on activist groups. I have all kinds of ways to try to avoid being surveilled. I'm not saying it's easy. It's not easy. It's not easy for journalists either. But we do, I believe we need to take these measures, you know. So come back to the wider context of the present day then. Would you say that Cover Up, which has this long sweep of history in it, from Cy Hirsch working on Vietnam right up to him taking calls from a source talking to him about Gaza, would you say that the film is about the present day as much as it is about history?

35:34Yeah, I mean, I think it's very much about the present day. I mean, that's compelled me to make it. I mean, I could have made other films, but I really feel this urgency around the importance of both investigative journalism, about the responsibilities of legacy media, and then also about drawing connections across time, right? To draw connections of cycles of impunity that in this country, and this country being the United States, that these repetitions and these repetitions, like that it's, that there's these lies and then there are no consequences, which then sets the stage for where we are today.

36:09I think had there been consequences in previous wrongdoings and atrocities that were ordered from the top of the government, I think we'd be in a different moment. But there were consequences, right? The soldiers involved in the abuse at Abu Ghraib or the outcry over Milai or the Freedom Act that came in after the evidence on mass surveillance in the US. Right. But consequences, I mean, I would say that with the case of Vietnam and Iraq, I mean, the soldiers were charged, but the chain of command weren't. None of those people ever faced any consequences. The people who often face consequences are the whistleblowers.

36:53You have General Tuguba, who wrote the report about torture at Abu Ghraib. You know, he then is told that he needs to step down from the military. It's the whistleblowers that face the consequences. So I think Nixon, they impeach, but then he's pardoned. Or he resigns before they impeach him, and then he's pardoned by Ford. You know, I think that cycle has to end. And it's actually hard to think of a president these days choosing to step down in pretty much any circumstances. Yeah, unfortunately. It feels like that age is gone. Yeah, hopefully not. I mean, we can't, like I just, you know, Sai says it in the film.

37:29I mean, we, I think it's given the stakes, you know, we can't just lay down and feel in despair. I mean, the United States, we have press freedom in our constitution. It's a right. And so we have to exercise that right. And I feel that when, you know, Sai talks about self-censorship in the film, in the press, in the US, and how distressing that is because we have the right to be critical of the U.S. government. It's not illegal and we have to maintain those rights and use them well, use them wisely. And yet, Cover Up, your latest film, is going to be seen around the world in households on mobile devices thanks to it being on Netflix.

38:10And we're also in an age where through phones in people's hands, we have evidence from many angles often of the same incident. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the incidents that are happening, that happened, the cold-blooded killing of Renee Goode, where she was doing the protected right of assembly and protest is what was happening there. And we know what happened to her because it was documented by citizens, let's say citizen journalists. We also know George Floyd was killed two miles from there. We know that because of citizen journalists. And so, yes, I think those phones can also be forms of, you know, that facts matter, you know, we really do, like, and to have evidence of these crimes being committed.

38:55And what's very scary to me right now, particularly having gone through being labeled a, or whatever, a terrorist threat, is that the Trump administration, immediately after the cold-blooded killing of a protester, called it domestic terrorism. And that's terrifying, you know, because I think this is, that's playbook authoritarianism. The rights that people have are then taken away and people are labeled as national security threats, etc. Enemies, the enemy within, etc. It is a very stark time and a difficult time for many in which your film is coming out. But your source of hope, does it lie in individual acts that you do see the acts of individual citizens?

39:38Yeah. You know, it's a dark time, but there are tipping points. And we have to keep fighting and sort of fighting in terms of, I mean, as a journalist, it means fact finding and doing it without fear or favor. And no matter where, you know, what political party it might anger. And I speak out a lot against, you know, I think the failure of the legacy media. I mean, I think we need a media that is, that rebuilds trust with the public. I think they've lost a lot of trust because they've, I think, often withheld information from the public. For instance, I don't think it was a secret that Joseph Biden wasn't fit to, run for re-election.

40:16I mean, that should have been in the news and all the news all the time. So we would have had a better outcome than we have now.

40:25That was Laura Poitras speaking to me a couple of weeks ago. But it's not the end of our conversation. Because last weekend, federal agents in Minneapolis, Minnesota shot dead Alex Pretty, a 37-year-old US citizen who worked as an intensive care nurse. As I saw that story play out, and again it was captured on camera, so much of what I heard went back to the themes Laura and I had talked about. And so I wanted to invite her back and get her take on these latest events. So that's what happened. I asked her, she agreed, and here's what she said when we spoke again. Laura, hello. Hi, how are you?

41:10I'm okay. Thank you for taking the time to talk again. Obviously, I've been thinking about you since the Alex Preti news because of the way that you talked about Renee Good in our first conversation. Can I ask you then, when you heard the news of what happened to Alex Preti, what was your immediate reaction? The immediate reaction, I mean, it's horror, you know, and I think anyone who sees this video, I mean, it's clear that, you know, that this was an execution. He was shot from behind, well, being held down on the ground. So it was horror. And then waiting for the government narrative and then listening, you know, knowing that they were going to lie about it.

41:48But the extent of the lie was actually quite shocking of how they tried to distort and create a narrative that did not align in any way with the facts that we could see with our eyes on these people who documented his killing, his execution. So how important then was the role of video? Because again, this was something you talked about when we first spoke in relation to Rene Good and indeed George Floyd before that. Right. I mean, going back to George Floyd, I mean, these killings, both of Alex Preddy and Rene Good were within like one or two miles of where George Floyd was killed. And we know about what happened is because a citizen journalist picked up their phone, a teenager, in fact, Darnella Frazier, and she documented his killing.

42:31And what the police put out after they murdered, killed a man in broad daylight, they said, you know, man dies in medical incident. Completely false. Thankfully, there was somebody there to document the murder of George Floyd. And thankfully, citizens are there documenting what ICE is doing, because these These are executions, what we're seeing. These are point-blank executions. You heard, obviously, the use of the domestic terrorist label again, the portrayal of Alex Bretti as being someone who had gone armed to a protest, all of these kinds of characterizations. What they're trying to do is create a state of terror.

43:07I mean, this killing of people using their protected rights of demonstrating or documenting ICE on the street. I mean, these are rights that we have in this country. You know, it's outrageous. It's also not a surprise. It's kind of the playbook. I mean, and so we shouldn't be surprised, but we should be prepared. And I think there's an obligation on the press now not to replicate false narratives when they come from the government. The government does lie. We know that over and over. And what they're trying to do is, you know, spin a narrative. And I think journalists have an obligation to challenge these narratives with facts and not to repeat them.

43:42Don't you believe in reflecting another point of view in, like, what you see as parroting an authoritarian narrative others might see as reflecting the official position, which is also important to understand what the administration is doing or trying to do? Well, I mean, we have evidence that you can see that this person was not a threat, that he was on the ground, that he was shot from behind. So no, I don't think you should reflect something that's a lie, that's clearly a lie. Do you think that this is a turning point for ICE and for the perception of the way that it's been operating? I mean, particularly even if you see the way President Trump is now talking about needing to de-escalate and wanting a full investigation.

44:25Well, I mean, there are many people, you know, in detention right now under ICE. People are dying that we don't see. We don't have cameras of. So I'm not sure. I mean, I think in terms of the international reputation of the United States, I mean, I think that is clearly shifted. I mean, I think people look at what's happening and they see these are paramilitaries. These are masked paramilitaries that are executing protesters on the streets. I mean, I think that this is their policy. Their policy is state terror. But I wonder if you detect anything in conversations that you're having with people who might not previously have supported the way that you have long seen the exercise of U.S.

45:02power. Are there people, neighbors, relatives, people who are further away from you than friends who you think are changing their minds because of what's happened in the last few days? I think that the videos that we see that were taken by people that day are undeniable. And yeah, I think anyone seeing a person being shot from behind is going to be outraged from that. And yes, I do hope it does create a tipping point whether or not that's going to change the policies of this administration that I'm much more skeptical of. And for you, awful as these moments are and the footage of Alex Peretti has been seen around the world, does it give you the renewed sense of purpose?

45:43Does something like that sort of renew your resolve to carry on doing the work you do? I do think people who stand up and resist to defend basic rights, yeah. I mean, I think we all need to be doing that. I think we cannot capitulate to sort of politics of despair, you know, throw our hands up and not do anything. So, yeah. But most people, truth be told, aren't resisting. And what's the impact of that on you when you feel as strongly as you do? Well, I mean, you look at a community like what's happening in Minneapolis. There are people who don't identify as activists who are coming together because they're seeing kids being kidnapped off the street.

46:23There are kids, they have ICE-masked agents going to schools, you know, and kidnapping, abducting people and hunting them. And I think people do stand up when they're confronted with that. I think we should all stand with the people of Minneapolis and learn from them and, you know, denounce ICE and abolish it. It needs to be abolished. I mean, this is a paramilitary force that's unaccountable. We don't even know the names of anyone who murdered, who executed Alex Pretty. Will we ever know those names? There is something that's positive that has happened since we last spoke. And as you're with us again, I just want to take the opportunity to mark that as well.

47:00You've had the news that cover-up has been nominated for a BAFTA. Congratulations. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. The reason it's meaningful is because I believe Sai's body of work is meaningful. And what it asks us to do in terms of being skeptical of government power over and over, which is what he does and which is what we're trying to say in the film. So yeah, it's meaningful. Is that what you think has led to the nomination? That that theme, that life's work is speaking to people right now because of the moment? Yeah, I hope so. That's what I would hope. I mean, that's why we made the film.

47:36because I think Sai's body of work teaches us so much about how we navigate the present and the role and the obligation of journalists to be dogged and adversarial and unrelenting in questioning state power. Laura, thanks for coming back to me. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. And just to add to this finally, a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security has now said agents linked to the death of Alex Pretty have been placed on administrative leave. President Trump says his administration is reviewing everything. And that's The Michelle Hussain Show for this week. The producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlew.

48:20Video editing is by Andy Hayward. Social media by Alex Morgan. Production assistance by Jennifer Seeley. The sound engineer is Richard Ward. Music is by Bart Warshall. and the executive producer is Louisa Lewis. At Bloomberg Weekend, the editorial director of audio and special projects is Brendan Francis Newnham and our executive editor is Catherine Bell. If you'd like to contact us, there's an email in the show notes as well as a link to these conversations in video. And you'll find the illustrated text versions at bloomberg.com slash weekend. Until the next time, goodbye.

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