WHO Chief Tedros on Covid, China and Texting RFK Jr

13:42Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:How far away do you think the next pandemic is?

13:45Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:We're still vulnerable. And people ask me what I think, whether we're prepared or not. I say yes and no. There are many initiatives we have started based on COVID lessons. That's why I say yes, because the pandemic agreement was agreed. The IHR was amended, the international health regulation. The pandemic fund is helping already 70 countries, by the way, which we installed in partnership with the World Bank. The pandemic intelligence in Berlin is working well and improving our surveillance system, one of the weaknesses we have seen during COVID. So I believe that we are getting better. and then there is the biohub to share pathogen samples as quickly as possible.

14:32Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:So that gives me confidence. But at the same time, these are only starting. We need to continue to invest and make sure that the pandemic agreement is ratified, implemented and then we can be better and prevent the next one or detect early and manage it without serious damage like COVID.

14:53Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:But these actions you're taking, everything that you're describing is at a time when the United States is withdrawing from the WHO, which it helped found. We knew that from one of President Trump's first executive orders a little over a year ago. And then in January 2026, you received the formal notification. And COVID is at the heart of that, isn't it? The accusation from the Trump administration is that the WHO mishandled the pandemic, and that's why they're leaving. What is your response to that?

15:24Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Of course, like any organization or any country, we might have our own problems or weaknesses. I cannot say WHO is perfect. But what I know is we have tried our best and we have done our best. One of the stories that really warms my heart is as soon as the Wuhan municipality posted this new virus in their website, this was December 31st, we took that and started probing or asking questions to China.

15:58Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:This was December 2019?

16:00Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:December 31, 2019. And colleagues at the country level, colleagues at the regional level and headquarters, including myself, were notified same day. And nobody said this is the New Year Eve. Everybody took it seriously. And even during the New Year, we were working. By January 2nd and 3rd, we got the confirmation from China. And by January 4th, we announced, and of course, the rest of history. No excuse of a New Year Eve or no excuse of a New Year. And then not only that, fast forward, We call for emergency committee by January 20th.

16:42Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:And some of your press conferences and the notable moments of that dark period were in this very room that we're speaking in.

16:51Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Exactly, in this very room.

16:51Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:At your headquarters in Geneva. But five years later, when you marked the five-year anniversary, you did ask the Chinese government for data about the origins of the virus. Did you get those answers, the complete answers about where the virus came from?

17:07Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:So maybe taking you back to the accusation you said of WHO hasn't managed well.

17:14Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:From the US.

17:15Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Exactly. So as I said, we tried our best. And second, the most important is we learned the lessons from that COVID pandemic. You know, what happened at the country level, some of the weaknesses of the countries, and weaknesses of international organizations, WHO and others. and that's why we started all the initiatives which I told you. What matters is maybe we had weaknesses, but okay, you try your best with whatever means you have and then you learn from your lessons and try to fix.

17:51Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:But the fact that America is blaming you, do you think that is cover for government failings? Is that actually the story here?

18:02Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:It's very difficult to say that, But I know for sure that no country was immune and almost every country had its own problems with regard to response to COVID. But in the same executive order, the executive order by the president says we are close to China.

18:22Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:That the WHO is too close to the Chinese government.

18:26Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:And WHO is influenced by China, which is not true. Actually, the US influences WHO more than any other country.

18:37Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Well, it was the largest country donor.

18:39Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Exactly, but in a positive way, because over several decades, WHO has established excellent relationship with the excellent institutions that the US has.

18:53Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:But that changed so rapidly. I have to ask you about some of what Secretary Rubio put in their statement. in January 2026 that America has been insulted by the WHO, that even on our way out of the organization, the WHO tarnished and trashed everything America has done for it. The WHO refuses to hand over the American flag that hung in front of it. This feels incredibly personal. So what do you think is really going on here?

19:21Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:So what I'm trying to say is one of the reasons for their departure. We say the WHO is influenced by China. It's not true. It's actually more influenced by the U.S., of course, in a positive way because of the excellent institutions. And that's one of the reasons for their departure. But there are other reasons as well. But on this particular issue with the flag, the withdrawal is actually decided by the member states. So whether it's a flag issue or whether it's, you know, their names in our websites or the information we get from them or the final decision to withdraw from WHO is done by the member states.

20:07Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:So we haven't refused. What we said is this is a member state issue, so member states should decide. But when I see that they were, you know, keen to have this footnote on our website saying they're withdrawing, And they wanted also their flag. We said, OK, we will give you.

20:28Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:So the flag's gone?

20:29Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Yes. We lowered it formally, giving all the protocols you do when lowering a flag. Don't forget that I used to be a foreign minister. And then we sent our team of two, I think, to hand delivery to the embassy.

20:48Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:They still owe money, though, don't they?

20:50Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Of course they do. 2024, 2025. And 2026. And I hope they will settle those money they owe us.

21:00Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:I mean, I think the dangerous thing for the organization is that others are already following suit. Argentina has followed suit. Is it your fear that more will think we too can do without the WHO? Last year, all the member states approved the pandemic agreement.

21:21Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:And not only that, they approved also the increase in membership fee, which is a significant one. This is part of the finance reform we started, by the way. It has nothing to do with the U.S. withdrawal. We identified reliance on few traditional donors as a major risk.

21:43Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Over-reliance, essentially.

21:44Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Over-reliance, yeah, as a major risk. So the negotiation took some time, actually. And by 2022, member states agreed to increase their access contribution of membership significantly. So by 2031, the contribution from the member states will reach 50 % or more. And that will help us to prevent shocks like now.

22:09Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Are you sure they're going to honor those pledges, though, in 2027? It's a time of aid cuts. The UK has made cuts to international aid. Germany has made cuts to international aid. These were, still are, but big donors.

22:24Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:So we hope that they will. And the other reason why we're convinced that it can happen is this is burden sharing. So it's not, if you see it in terms of each country, it's not a significant amount. But when you put it together, it's significant. So I hope that they will do it. And they understand also why. Because they want WHO to be more independent. because we have to operate without fear or favor. And for that to happen, as they call the economy stupid, it's the financing model stupid. So the financing model stupid means we need to have a flexible, sustainable funding in order to ensure our neutrality and impartiality.

23:10Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Then we will not be pushed by one country, by this country or that country, or dictated by one country or this country, but we follow signs.

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25:35I do want to go back to the COVID and China question because you didn't answer it when I said,

25:42Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:what was the origin of the virus and did you get the answers you wanted from the Chinese that you put forward on the fifth anniversary of the outbreak? Do you think it was infected animals, an infection crossing into humans, or was it, in your view, six years on a lab leak?

25:59Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:So the WHO's position is all hypotheses on the table, natural or lab leak, spillover or lab leak, because we don't have enough evidence to believe beyond reasonable doubt any of the hypotheses that we have.

26:20Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:That means you haven't had the full transparency from China.

26:23Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Exactly. So we have said that many times, starting from when the first report came in 2021. I asked China to be transparent and to give us all the information that they have in order to determine the origin of the virus.

26:41Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:So how disappointed are you that you never got that?

26:44Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Very disappointed. Because this is not just a science issue, it's also a moral issue, I suppose.

26:50Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:And trust, an issue of public trust.

26:52Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:It's a trust as well. So when I say science, when we know what happened with COVID, how it started, we can prevent the next one.

27:02Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Doesn't it suggest to you the lack of transparency, doesn't it suggest to you that perhaps it was a lab leak? Because if they're not being transparent, then perhaps they've got something to hide.

27:13Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:So that's what we're worried. Why are they not telling us? Why are they not being honest with us? Because after the report was released and we said all hypotheses on the table, including Lab League, we formed a group called SEGO. And that group prepared many questions, especially related to the Wuhan lab. And I transferred those questions to senior officials, including the president. But we haven't received any response. And without knowing, without getting answers to those questions, we will not be able to determine how COVID started. And that's disappointing because we cannot force anyone, we cannot enforce any of what we are saying because we only operate based on the willingness of the nations.

28:07Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:We don't have mandate. So the only thing we do is we ask and we make our case and we wait for them to cooperate. But the difficult thing is, for instance, there are some countries, including the U.S., who say we have intelligent information about lab leak, but we haven't received anything. I also wrote to the US asking for this information, including to the president, but I haven't received any intelligence information that can help us. If they want us to finalize, then they can give us the information that they have from intelligence or elsewhere.

28:43Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:And are you still sharing information with the United States? Because you gather from your network of all your member states, and that's part of your database on current health threats. Does that still go to the US even though clearly from its statements wants nothing to do with the WHO these days?

29:00Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Yes, we still keep in touch and they get all the information that we have, especially the important information they need related to health security. Nothing has changed.

29:13Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Even though they're not paying any more and they owe you money?

29:15Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:They're not paying any more. Or they say that they're out, but we give them all the information. Because WHO's mission is to make the American people safe and the rest of the world also safe.

29:30Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:That way they get it both ways. They have their cake and they eat it.

29:33Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:The other issue they raise is we pay a lot to WHO, so we don't want to pay. The surprising part is we also want them to pay less. They want to pay less, and we want them to pay less. The whole idea of the finance reform we started, as soon as I became Director General, is to broaden the donor base. So the major donors, the traditional major donors, reduce their contribution and the burden is shared. So if that's what they want, they could have stayed to help us succeed in the finance reform, so they pay less.

30:11Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:I want to talk about children. and the fact that child mortality is rising after years of very impressive declines, that trajectory is essentially changing. And at the same time, we also have trust in vaccination declining in many countries. What is the link between the two and how serious is that picture?

30:34Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:For the first time this century, we will see an increase in child mortality. And this is a combination of factors. But if you ask me the two, one is overseas development assistance and also the misinformation and disinformation that's influencing many parents not to vaccinate their kids. So vaccination rates also have dropped.

30:59Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:And we have in the United States a vaccine skeptic who is the health secretary. Have you had this conversation with him, with Robert F. Kennedy Jr., about his views on vaccines?

31:11Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:By the way, with Secretary Kennedy, we collaborate, for instance, on evacuation of kids, especially with cancer from Gaza.

31:22Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Even now?

31:23Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Yes, even now.

31:25Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Even since in the last month, since the withdrawal?

31:28Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Exactly. So the evacuation continues, so we work together because we have to continue to speak to each other.

31:35Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Tell me how that works. Directly with him? Do you speak? Do you message?

31:39Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:We message, sometimes we call. Mostly message. So how would you describe that relationship you have with him? You know, talking to each other is always good, even when we have differences. For instance, I don't agree with his position on vaccines, but I agree with his position on addressing the root cause of health. For instance, health is not made in hospitals or clinics. It's made in homes, in schools. It's the food we eat, as he says, real food. And the environment we live in and our own behavior, whether we smoke or drink or abuse sugary drinks and so on. So we agree on something, we disagree on something else.

32:28Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:That's actually what matters. You can still work together while disagreeing on some issues and agreeing on other issues.

32:36Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:But would you call his views on vaccines dangerous, where he says, for example, I believe autism comes from vaccines?

32:45Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:It's not true. And I have issued a statement saying that there is no association, direct association between vaccines and autism. We have differences on that. And to be honest, especially measles, it's dangerous because measles could kill.

33:00Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:And there's a very serious measles outbreak right now in the United States, the worst for decades. You know this also, Dr. Tedros, from your own family life, don't you? You lost a brother when he was very young.

33:12Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Very young, yes. This is my younger brother, the next one, the second in the family, actually. I'm the first.

33:20Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:And...

33:28Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:He died at a young age, I know. I'm sorry to ask you this it's just so it's an example again of your work being personal to who you are how much younger than you yes of course of course

34:01Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:How many siblings were you all together?

34:04Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Six.

34:05Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Six. And you're the eldest of six?

34:07Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:The eldest.

34:08Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Yeah. And is your mother still alive?

34:11Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Yes.

34:12Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Gosh. And my father too. Your father too, martial arts, we'd say. And they live?

34:19Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:In Addis.

34:20Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:In Addis. Okay. Okay. So are you happy to continue?

34:27Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:You know, we can go ahead. It's okay now. it's transient

34:31Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:yeah well this is this is the nature of this is human beings this is pain do you feel able to tell me about your brother and what happened to him yeah so

34:44Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:I had a brother and his name was Yamane and from what my mother tells me actually he had measles that's what I think now from the symptoms she told me so we used to sleep same bed play together so I'm the lucky one and he was not the lucky one I survived just pure luck and he died that's it

35:15Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:do you remember him getting sick?

35:18Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:yes I remember him I remember and of course with the technology now he could have survived But the sad part is, with the technology we have, with the vaccines that are trusted vaccines we have, what makes me sad is, you know, kids still are dying from measles. And that's wrong. Of course, my brother died. He didn't have access and no one would expect for measles vaccines to be delivered in Africa as soon as they were ready. But as I said earlier, the sad part is there are even in developed guarantees where you have access to measles vaccines, but needless, kids die because of misinformation. But there is strong evidence that measles vaccines are actually safe and families should, parents should use those vaccines to protect their kids.

36:23Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:And also there's evidence that if your child does contract measles and survives, there are complications that can happen later in life as well. So the consequences are very serious.

36:37Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Exactly. Years into the future. Exactly.

36:40Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:What do you think is the way to combat misinformation and the wrong kind of leadership on vaccines? One of the people that Robert Kennedy Jr. has put into the key panel advising on vaccination in the US thinks that polio vaccination might not be needed in the country anymore.

37:04Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:I think health service should not be politicized. especially how we handle or how we respond to viruses or bacteria, should not be politicized. If there is anything that politicians should do, should support the experts and spread the expert opinion. Because when politicized or if it's used as a political weapon to attack opponents, then the result is we lose our citizens. our kids could die or our citizens could die.

37:41Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:What do you think then about the exodus of expertise from research in the US, from the National Institutes of Health, which has cancelled funding for mRNA vaccines? Does that agenda cause you concern?

37:59Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:On mRNA vaccine, mRNA as a technology itself, of course we're using it for vaccines now, but for the future it could help even with fighting cancers. So defunding mRNA research is a wrong decision. I hope they will reconsider. You know, we're in the molecular age and this technology has a huge potential. So it's a mistake. But I hope the US will reconsider and I hope other countries will also invest in it.

38:33Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:And the broader Maha agenda, do you think it will make Americans healthy again?

38:38Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:You know, on that, I prefer actually to discuss on specific issues. As I told you earlier with the Secretary, especially on disease prevention, on non-communicable diseases, his stance on that I agree, while on vaccines I disagree. So I think it's important that we agree or disagree on issue by issue, case by case, because I don't think all he does or thinks is wrong. There are other things I support also in lowering the price of medicine in the US. I think that's very important. But there are some things which are correct and some which we disagree.

39:19Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Do you think the Americans will be back in the next decade?

39:22Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:I think so because we still work together, meaning they understand the value of the organization in terms of health security. and they need this platform. They also contributed greatly in building it, and I hope they will come back. What makes it a bit personal to me is this decision is really sad because I led the transformation of the Ethiopian health sector. Ethiopia used to be top five in terms of maternal mortality. It's much lower now. And if I single out one country, the significant support we got from the U.S. Significant. And I'm very grateful for that, for the American generosity.

40:12Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:This is essentially USAID, which no longer exists. USAID, CDC, and PEPFAR. The AIDS initiative.

40:21Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:They were helping me to train nurses, midwives, doctors.

40:25Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:So you've worked with some extraordinary Americans over the years. Exactly. You remember the individuals.

40:30Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:And not only that significant investment in Ethiopia, which I cherish forever, even with this current situation, I believe that I have to be grateful. And I was also close to many of the former presidents, like President Carter. And he used to help me with malaria eradication, even helped me feel a gap on deadnets I needed to cover 10 million households with 20 million nets. I think he gave me around 4 million.

40:58Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:So do you conclude leadership is just not the same as the America of the past?

41:03Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:If I tell you more, you would be surprised if I tell you that President Carter campaigned for me to take this position. He wrote personal letters to heads of state and government he knew, saying, I work with Tedros, Tedros is like this and like this, so you vote for him. and President Clinton with HIV, incredible support he gave us. And the progress we have made is because of him. And President Bush, we decorated him in Ethiopia because of his contribution to PEPFAR.

41:36Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:He set up PEPFAR, the AIDS initiative.

41:38Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:It gave hope to many countries.

41:40Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Give me a message for President Trump then. What is his opportunity here for global health? If you could persuade him to put his animosity aside, what's the upside for him? The upside, I think it can make a difference.

41:55Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:For instance, I don't know why he doesn't take credit for it. If there was one thing that was historic during the COVID time, was his initiative Operation Warp Speed. Vaccines were produced in a record time during COVID because of him. Because of the operation and the COVID vaccines were ready, vaccinated billions of people. COVID was stopped. I don't know why he doesn't want to take credit, but he can contribute to global health because he had done it once. So he can make a difference. And WHO is the best platform to do that. 194 countries. You find them in this place. It's not about the money when I asked the U.S.

42:43Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:to come back. It's about cooperation. It's about solidarity. And it's also about U.S. leadership because I have told you most influence comes from the U.S. because of its excellent institutions. And they cannot say other countries' influence. It's not true. So they can continue that for the benefit of humanity. They benefit. It's in their best interest. And the rest of the world also benefits. But it's not about the money. I hear now recently they want to establish something which is 2 billion U.S. dollars worth. But in terms of membership fee, they only pay for WHO 130 million. So why invest 10 times to create a new one when they can benefit from a small proportion?

43:28Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:It has never been about the money. But what is important is solidarity. Because when WHO constitution was finalized, it was based on universality. We need to have the universality principle at all times to have the maximum cooperation and solidarity because viruses get advantage when we are divided.

43:54Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:We've come to see you here in Geneva, Dr. Tedros, and this show is part of Bloomberg Weekend, and therefore I would like to ask what your weekends are like because I find it hard to imagine that they're not full of work given the job you do. Indeed, you called me at the weekend. Before this interview, so what is your life like outside this building?

44:20Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:It's a bit of a boring one. So normally I enjoy having time with my grandkids now. But weekends, Saturday, I'm always in the office.

44:33Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Six days a week in the office.

44:35Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Exactly. And Sunday, still at home, but a good part of Sunday also I work.

44:44Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:But church?

44:47Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Church, you know, as they say, the church of God is your heart.

44:55So normally I do that, if you understand.

45:00Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Dr. Tedros, we'll let you get back to your work. Thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you. And that's where we left things. If you have a look at the video of this conversation on YouTube, you'll see where we were speaking, in a boardroom with the WHO's distinctive logo behind us. It's a staff with a snake curling up it, a historic symbol of medicine and the medical profession. And while there is no longer a US flag outside, they do hope for an American return. And that is The Michelle Hussain Show for this week. The producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlew. The video producer is Andy Hayward, and we have production support from Jennifer Seeley and this week from Chris Reynolds too.

45:45Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:Social media is by Alex Morgan. Audio mixing by Richard Ward. Our executive producer is Louisa Lewis. You can email us via michelshow at bloomberg.net with questions, comments, ideas or issues. And you can also find a version to read with photos and my notes at bloomberg.com forward slash weekend. end. Finally, thanks to Bart Walshaw for our music and the wider Bloomberg Weekend team, Director of Audio and Special Projects, Brendan Francis Newnham, and our Executive Editor, Catherine Bell. Until next time, goodbye.

46:37Mishal Husain:This season on my podcast, Here's the Thing, I talk to composer Mark Shaman. It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. And journalist Chris Whipple. Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing. And it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. The time is approximately 11.15 a.m. About to start consensual telephone call with Dr.

47:22Mishal Husain:Daiwa Zhang. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside.

47:48Mishal Husain:I've never seen that much evidence in my entire career, and I don't think we'll ever see that much evidence again. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS. and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau from Bloomberg Podcasts starting on February 13th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.