The PR Week, 10.8.2026: Nick Ashooh, APCO

0:00This week on the podcast, APCO Worldwide's Nick Ashooh joins us in the studio to chat about his 50 years in the PR industry, starting off at a then-controversial nuclear power plant, going through his time at Paramount, working at AIG during the financial crisis, and Alcoa as the company split into three parts. And in the news, Golan Ketchum wins a tobacco education campaign from the CDC. Betty Crocker's 105th birthday is celebrated with a campaign helped out by Edelman. We look at Gen Z and the way they use social media as the most trusted election information source. And former White House press secretary treads the well-worn path to Fox.

0:50Caroline Leavitt is the latest on-screen contributor. All these stories and more coming up next.

1:06Hello and welcome to the PR Week, PR Week's regular weekly roundup of everything that matters in the worlds of PR and communications. My name's Steve Barrett. Going to guide you gently through another show with my colleague, Frank Washkirk, Executive Editor of PR Week. How are you doing, Frank? Doing well, Steve. Thanks for having me on. Are you excited about the PR Week conference in Chicago? Very much. I love getting to Chicago every year. It's not only a great agency town, there are a lot of great brands there, and it's a good show every year. So looking forward to it. Great lineup for our delegates.

1:41So I hope you got your ticket. The food isn't half bad either in Chicago. It's not half bad. Chicago or New York pizza, or is that a different podcast? Oh, heavens, New York. Okay, fine. It got me in trouble. Yeah, I think there's a couple of tickets left, but we're pretty near sold out. So if you want to join us, get your ticket. This week, we have an amazing guest, someone who's been in the industry for 50 years, listeners. 50, count them. It's Nick Ashu, who's the Senior Director, Corporate and Executive at APCO Worldwide. Nick, welcome to the podcast.

2:15Nick Ashooh: In the studio with us as well. Yes, thanks, Steve and Frank. My pleasure to be here. It's great to see you. And 50 years, you don't look old enough to have spent that much. Did you start when you were still a teenager? What was going on? Oh, I wish. No, right out of college, though. And I saw that this was interesting, that you studied journalism, philosophy, and psychology. Do you think that gave you the grounding you needed for a career in PR? Well, pretty much except that we really weren't required to take business courses. And that was a handicap. And they've since corrected that. But that I had to learn on the fly.

2:52Nick Ashooh: And if you look at some of the places where I was, that wasn't the way to learn it. Yeah. What was your first job in PR then, if you can take it back to 76? 76. I guess we're talking the mid-70s. 76, yeah. The very first one was I did like kind of a one-person communications shop for two hospitals in Boston, which was near where I grew up in New Hampshire. And I did everything. And then everything meant when you did the newsletter, you wrote it, you took pictures, you developed the film, you printed the picture, you laid it out by hand and brought it to the printer. So it was a great place to start because you had to do everything.

3:30I remember working in a printer's and you had to get that little paint on the film if there were any blotsies. Oh, sure. All kinds of tricks. All that stuff. I once got my finger stuck in the machine. I was like, yeah, it was a different time for sure. But, I mean, 50 years is a long time. And you've spent, I think, 37 of those years on the client side and then 13 at Apco. What are the biggest changes you've seen in the industry? And maybe what are the things that still stay the same that you need today that you would have needed back then?

4:05Nick Ashooh: Well, I think the biggest change was when I started, the communications was very much transactional in the corporate world. So, you know, we're announcing something. Please announce it. We did something wrong. Please try to explain it. You really weren't part of the strategy at that point. That all changed for where I was. I was with the utility in New Hampshire building a controversial nuclear power plant. and that required that communications go to a whole new level. So that was a big change over the years. So we ended up in the boardroom where the decisions were being made, whereas early on that wasn't the case.

4:47It's funny how things changed because nuclear power is now considered kind of clean energy, isn't it? Full circle. I guess the equivalent now would be trying to sell in data centers into local communities.

5:01Nick Ashooh: Very many parallels. The one big difference is that right now data centers, it's a bipartisan issue. Whereas back then nuclear was favored on the right, opposed on the left. But now data centers, and I think they'll get over this. But right now it's pretty much a bipartisan issue of opposition. It's really interesting. And I can't help but think this is one of these issues years ago that Trump would have been very good at exploiting on a grassroots level. Yes. Anyway, it's not to go on and get off my soapbox about it. There was a lot of that without Trump. Yeah, for sure. But if you're looking at the way, say, the data center industry or the AI industry is selling their business into communities, what would your advice be as a counselor now?

5:57Because it seems like they're not really trying to engage communities as much as they should or could. And in many ways, there are even some dark arts going on where they're working with local authorities and almost holding them to ransom.

6:10Nick Ashooh: That's been a problem. I think that's been a problem. Look, but I think they're getting it because you see a lot of the new proposals. They're coming in with their own power. They're not going to have an impact on electric rates. Some of them are paying a community benefit to ease the impact or to compensate the impact they are going to have. And they're doing other things to abate noise and all that. Whereas I think you're right. Early on, a lot of them just try to come in and say, you know, here's some tax revenue and let us do our thing. With nuclear, there was a feeling at the time that, you know, it was an engineering driven mentality.

6:47Nick Ashooh: And it was like, this is a great technology. We know what we're doing. And the strength of our knowledge is going to carry the day. And that was thrown back at them. So there was a lot of frustration internally because the feeling was, we know what we're doing. We're doing everything right. Why are they opposed to us? Yeah. And if you were at a utility from their side and you were now communicating, because, you know, especially amongst the younger generation, they are kind of anti-AI, although they have to use it if they're in college or university. It's part of their coursework and they can actually lead on it because it's going to be native to them.

7:29But they are very suspicious of it as well, aren't they? Not just young people, but people in communities.

7:35Nick Ashooh: Well, that's another parallel to nuclear power because nuclear power was mysterious and there was, you know, there was a threat of unknown proportions and it was very kind of unsettling. But when the benefits started to become clear, well, it doesn't have a really impact on air quality. It hardly uses any land. It's, you know, you look at the total cycle, it gained adoption. I think that's the challenge now for data centers and AI to make the benefits tangible, what they can bring and how it can benefit and how it's already benefiting everybody. Yeah, I have to admit, I remember going on campaign for nuclear disarmament marches when I was an 18 year old young lad.

8:18And it was it was a hot issue and thousands of people with people would there were protests at sites, weren't there? people were living in trees and all sorts of stuff.

8:29Nick Ashooh: We had all of that at the Seabrook plant. It's interesting Frank mentioned President Trump because his attitude to that particular thing is, listen, this is an economic opportunity, and if we don't do it, the Chinese will do it. And you could say that about AI generally, couldn't you? But on the other hand, you've got to be sensitive to what people think. People are frightened of it. They equate AI with job losses. They equate it with environmental damage. So these narratives are complicated and the sort of thing that you've specialized in over the years, and I guess that APCO specializes in as well.

9:08Nick Ashooh: Yeah, very much. Very, very much. We live more where communications and policy comes together, not so much the classic communications role of communications firms. And that's the challenge. It's figuring out just what is it that people are hesitant about? What is it they need to understand? How can we help them understand that? And whether it's data centers or any other kind of facility or issue, that's kind of where we make our living. And I think even President Trump is coming to the realization that we needed some regulation around this. But, of course, the question is, do we do U.S. regulation?

9:46Do we try and coordinate globally? He had a very high profile summit with President Xi of China the other week. That was an opportunity some would say he might have missed out on where they could have made some statement about AI and regulation and actually got some kudos for it. And what was your take on that? Because that's mixing up the whole political, reputational technology issues.

10:09Nick Ashooh: Well, somebody has to lead and it's in our interest to lead. So, you know, I think that is, again, if I go back to the nuclear power analogy, regulation first, it wasn't enough, then it was too much. And then there was an insurance issue after Three Mile Island. And finally, people got together and rationalized all these issues. Well, I think that's what we need to do now. What's unsettling to me is seeing the people who are running the AI companies saying that they're really not sure, you know, what's happening with their technology. That's a problem. So I think we really do need to get our arms around that.

10:44Yeah, we talked about that in a recent podcast because there was that whistleblower who said, look, there's a 10 percent chance we're all going to die in a decade. And that story is still floating around. And it almost felt like those leaders were kind of saw where he was coming from to a certain extent. Oh, they've said it. Yeah, they've said it. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, look, that's going to be a massive story and it needs great communications counsel from within organizations and from agency support. So for sure, big area. You've also worked in the media industry, worked at Paramount.

11:19Nick Ashooh: Yes. Any reflections on that with what's going on there now? Yeah, that was a long time ago and not for very long, but I learned a lot in that this is when Paramount was Paramount Communications, Inc., pre-Viacom. And it was still marquee assets, Paramount Pictures, Madison Square Garden, the Knicks, the Rangers. Go Knicks. Yeah, go Knicks, yeah. Everyone could see the consolidation coming, but I think Paramount fell behind badly in a number of ways, and you could say the same for Warner. I don't know. I mean, I'm as curious as anyone else to see how this plays out. For me, when I was there, it was really more of a financial company than an entertainment company.

12:04Nick Ashooh: The entertainment was the assets, but it was all about making deals, just the dawn of the cable era. And there was consolidation, talking about consolidating all these different services. So it was, everybody knew it was going to change, but it still wasn't really clear how it was going to change. But we were more focused on doing deals with entertainment assets. So that's where I learned a lot. I worked for a very challenging boss. That's why I wasn't there very long. Well, yeah, the media industry does have challenging bosses, doesn't it? It does. Madison Square Garden is an interesting CEO there as well.

12:41Yes, right. Yeah, and look, that consolidation is going to continue now. And what's changed, I guess, in the interim is that people can start up their own thing on their own. and suddenly they've got an audience as big as the cable companies. And it's a totally different environment, isn't it? You know, look at Mr. Beast or influencers, creators. So it's a totally different world in which PR pros are operating for sure.

13:08Nick Ashooh: And still changing fast. Yeah. What's your reflections on AIG? You worked there during the financial crisis. Yes. That was, you know, I remember that well. And touch wood, we haven't had another one. We came pretty close two or three years ago. So what are your reflections on that? You know, when I got to AIG, my career was well along, and I really thought I was smart by then. And then that crisis hit, and I found out how much I still didn't know. In retrospect, AIG, it was held out as a villain at the time. But in the end, American taxpayers made$23 billion off of AIG. And the stuff that they had written actually was all money good in the end.

13:52Nick Ashooh: But you couldn't see it at the time because even a company as big as AIG, it was a liquidity issue, wasn't a solvency issue. But it was hard to see. You know, one lesson from that is when you're in the middle of the storm, it's really hard to judge what's going on around you. So that's why one thing I learned from that was getting outside perspective is really, really important. And I did that with the help of some outside agencies at the time. and that helped a lot. The other thing is the sun's always going to come up. You know, it seems so bleak at the time, but the sun's going to come up. And in the end, I think you're judging what kind of decisions you made, how you conducted yourself.

14:34Nick Ashooh: And those are the lessons that I took out of that. Yeah, I mean, I think about COVID, you know, it was difficult to see an end to that, wasn't it? But now with five years on. It's going to come up. If not, you've got bigger things to worry about. Yeah, yeah. Was there one particular memory during the financial crisis when you think, Oh, my God. That was insane. Yes. I remember specifically what that memory was. Things were flying all around us. And we just had, I think I had four CEOs in a period of 14 months during that period. And the third one was doing pretty well. And they were going to feature him.

15:12Nick Ashooh: The dean of financial, Carol Loomis, was going to do a feature on him, Ed Liddy. And it was going great. And she called me up and said, I've got a memo, an email that had leaked about some internal controversy. And that changed her story. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. You know, that's just the worst thing that could happen. And at that very moment, my assistant came in and put a telephone message on my desk that said, 60 Minutes wants to talk to you. And I was just about at the point then when I said, OK, I'm done. But it turned out fine. Actually, Carol Loomis, she did a fair story. And 60 Minutes did a very fair story.

15:57Nick Ashooh: We worked with them a long time, but they did it right. And actually getting out of that situation taught me you really focus on where you can make a difference. 60 Minutes, you know, they're great. I know they've gone through a lot lately, but they've got the resources to do a really good story. They're not just looking to grab headlines, you know, right out of the box. worked with some other great journalists at the time, Andrew Ross Sorkin at the Times, Joe Nocera, they wanted to get the story right. They were very smart and understood it. So I focused on that. And I think that's when we finally were able to get by the crisis.

16:30And presumably that was partly due to the fact you had a pre-existing relationship. It wasn't just like, you know, your first go around with those particular people. That's a great point.

16:41Nick Ashooh: And when you mentioned earlier what's changed, what stayed the same, or what's important today, the relationships are still really important. Harder to do today because there aren't as many journalists. There aren't as many journalists. And the ones that are there have to maybe cover a lot of different things, whereas back then there were journalists who knew what I was doing better than I did. They knew our business. But the plus side was you can work with them and really explain a story to them, and they're not coming with some, well, a few still came with a misdirected angle. Let me be frank, but that's a big change.

17:19Nick Ashooh: The relationships are still so important, but it takes more work to build them and sustain them. It does, and you've got to do it in a different way, whether it's texting, messaging, whatever. Email's not necessarily the way people communicate these days. And then let's talk a little bit about Alcoa, another interesting situation, because it was a company that split. You also got to spend time in the Middle East, which is APCOA has some significant resources out there. Tell us a bit about that and the experience there. Yeah, Alcoa, great company. We have a very dynamic CEO. And we did help develop Saudi Arabia's first aluminum complex.

17:58Nick Ashooh: And that was, this was 2010. And it was pretty much out there because Saudi Arabia was still, you know, they had religious police and it was hard to move around. Women executives were, you know, had a hard time moving around. But that was a really kind of a breakthrough project that Alcoa did, to their credit. And that was, you know, aluminum is a really important business, but Alcoa had other really important businesses, which led to their breakup into three different companies, which have all done very well. But at the time, going to Saudi Arabia and doing that JV was a pretty leading edge. And I think the kingdom, it's worked out well for them.

18:43Nick Ashooh: It's a very, very important critical asset if you're a growing country. Yeah, given PR is a 70 % female industry, what you're saying is it's actually easier for a woman to work in the Middle East now than it was. Much easier. When I went over with Alcoa, as I said, 2010, women on our side, before they got off the plane, they had to put on a buyer. They had to go in a separate car. They had to travel in an elevator separately, you know, without any unrelated mails. When I went over after I joined Apco, I went over several years later, not many, and it had changed remarkably. There used to be two entrances for restaurants, you know, family and single males or unrelated males.

19:33Nick Ashooh: Those are gone. The religious police are gone. And when I was seconded there for a bit, I was literally elbow to elbow in the workplace with women, Saudi women in the workplace. So that's that's a make great progress. Still more to go, but they've made great, great progress. And as you say, communications, APCO has a great office in Riyadh and a lot of women working there from all over the world. And it's been a very, very successful office. The country's growing. It's very dynamic. Yeah, they still do have a way to go, but I take your point. What about generally in Saudi? We've seen them pull back from certain things.

20:11They're not investing in, say, for example, Live Golf. You know, they've brought back from the city that they were building. Is that just the way it goes over there that, you know, you have ups and downs? Because if you've got, I think APCO's got hundreds of people over there, haven't they? We do. And obviously the area's a lot more unstable now.

20:34Nick Ashooh: Yes, that's right. And a lot of things have paused. Yeah, a lot of things. Well, I think the kingdom is, I'm not an expert, but I know that some of what's going on with them is, and they have, even with all the oil they have, they have limited resources. Some of these projects were tremendously ambitious. And I just think it's part of the normal maturation of a country. You think about a hundred years ago, not, you know, not very long ago, they were literally living in tents. So to see the advancement that's been made is pretty remarkable. Not unusual to see that there's some maybe missteps or maybe things that have to be done differently, but it is going in the right direction.

21:13Yeah, for sure. And then just to wrap, 50 years, are we going to hit 60 in the industry? What are your plans?

21:21Nick Ashooh: Well, we'll see how long they want to keep me around. But I'm actually at the point where it's probably time for me to let somebody else come in and make a difference. But I plan to stay involved with the industry. I've been very involved and plan to continue to stay involved. And I hope to stay involved with APCO. And APCO is great because we have different constructs where you can contribute at different levels. And Marjorie Krause, our founder and executive chair, is marvelous. And marvelous about getting talent, keeping talent, and using it in a way that's best for all the parties involved.

21:56Nick Ashooh: So we'll see. I love the business. I love, you know, I've seen it from both sides. And I plan to stay involved at some level. Yeah, why not? And last thing, we've been talking a lot about the role of the CCO. We've seen a sort of, I don't know if it's a generational shift, but you see people like Sally Sussman, Frank Shaw, John Harris sort of leaving their roles. What do you make of the CCO role now, you know, and is it as respected within organizations? I think you mentioned when you first started, it was very much, well, okay, here's a press release, whatever. But then you gradually became part of the strategy and got that more senior role.

22:37Where do you think we're at at the moment? Is it just a sort of transition where the younger CCOs are going to be taken over or other challenges?

22:44Nick Ashooh: Well, I think generally it's advancing and it's much more prevalent at the C-suite level and at the board level than it was when I started. But that's not to say that there have been some places that have kind of gone the other way. I've seen that where they have de-emphasized the role, have it report to HR or legal or something. And, you know, that can work as long as there's a connection to the CEO because it's got to be driven by the CEO. So, but I think generally, I think the progress is forward and that because we bring a perspective that no one else in the organization brings. And I think those that kind of back off and go other directions, that lasts fine until something happens.

23:32Nick Ashooh: And then they see that they have to unify. They have to unify their story, their theme, have everybody coordinated. And that really happens through the CCO. Yep. And we did a piece on the page survey about the CCO role and blogged about it last week, and we'll continue to cover that. So yeah, great to chat to you, Nick, and we'll get your input on the big stories of the week. You're already listening to the podcast, but are you getting the full picture? To really stay ahead, whether you're crafting a winning pitch or navigating a crisis, you need more than audio highlights. That's where a PR Week subscription comes in.

24:06subscribers get the critical data that defines our industry the agency business report our exclusive ai survey and comprehensive salary data stop guessing no for sure click the link in the description to subscribe today frank a really interesting win for golden ketchum a nice contract from the cdc so his federal spending opening up again after it was kind of decimated at the start of the Trump second administration? It looks like maybe yes and no, or maybe in some areas. So this is a CDC Centers for Disease Control and Prevention contract with Golan Ketchum. So it's potentially worth more than$150 million, though it is unclear right now just how much of that is actually focused on earned media or communications.

24:56It does have a minimum obligation of about$65 million. Again, unclear how much of that is going to PR or comms. What we know about it right now is that it runs for at least a year and then it has a possible extension date for another year. So it may run until the end of September 2027. It's interesting the broader context around this is there have been so many spending cuts, personnel cuts in CDC communications and HHS communications because of the DOGE initiative a few years ago. But it looks like from this that anti-smoking or tobacco education is kind of a safe place for government spending to continue, at least on the health care side.

25:39Yeah, we don't know for certain, but my understanding is that around less than 10 million of that will be for the PR and media. The majority is for paid media, media spend, and then there's a creative element on top of that. But it's interesting that Ketchum is kind of the lead in the database. So if you look at the documents itself, Ketchum is listed as the winning agency. Of course, it's a part of Golan Ketchum now, but it is interesting how it's listed. Both Golan and Ketchum have a significant history doing anti-tobacco work. Golan has done work with the CDC before, and Ketchum had done work with the legacy group that used to do those truth initiative ads on television.

26:27Nick, we know that when you spend on contracts like this, it actually saves money in the long term because you're saving on health services and all the things that go with people smoking. The same with drink driving and using a seatbelt or whatever. But it's always a bit controversial, isn't it? Because it's taxpayers' money that's being spent. So you must have seen this over the years with federal contracts. And what's your take on it and where we are now?

26:56Nick Ashooh: Well, look, it's important public service. What I think what's interesting about this, though, is I'd really like to see what the rematch for, because tobacco use has been declining precipitously. So that's not an issue. Nicotine is still an issue. Vaping is an issue. So I'm curious if it's actually going to go. But look, I think this sort of thing is an important public service. So it can be controversial, but we've seen recent controversy about other ads from the White House that now are not going to be paid with taxpayer money. I don't think that's the case here. Yeah, I think that's important for our industry and the marketing industries to make the case.

27:35Actually, you know what? This is saving money in the long term. It is, yes. I think that's true. Yeah, but it's good to see some contracts coming through anyway and a nice win for Golden Ketchup. So, Benny Crocker, 105th birthday campaign. Working with Edelman on it. Yeah, working with Edelman on this. I think this is an interesting month-long campaign, and it includes a special edition ice cream flavor and cake crafting workshop. I didn't know Benny Crocker was over 100 years old, so congratulations to them. And they're also doing this in partnership with the Museum of Ice Cream, which is a real thing.

28:10We've sent people to the Museum of Ice Cream before, and I don't know that. Where is it? It's in New York. Just asking for a friend.

28:18Nick Ashooh: Yeah. And they raved about it coming back from the museum. They were gone in an especially long time, I remember. Well, Julia Walker seems to be writing exclusively about ice cream this week. She met Ben from Ben and Jerry's, didn't she? Yeah. No, she's actually, she's very busy at advertising week right now. So, yeah. One thing that's important about this, Betty Crocker and the Museum of Ice Cream combined are broadcasting this on their Instagram channels, which have more than 1 million followers combined. And why are we talking about Chipotle and corn flutes? I actually love this campaign. There are not just corn flutes here or bell pepper horns, but there are jalapeno trumpets, which kind of makes me wonder how your mouth would feel after playing a jalapeno trumpet for a while.

29:05But that's a different discussion. But anyway, Chipotle partnered with the London Vegetable Orchestra, Again, a real thing to record jingles at Abbey Road Studios in London, which is kind of wild. And I think I saw a LinkedIn post where the head of marketing or someone at Chipotle was like. Well, what's your favorite album that was recorded at Abbey Road Studios? Well, do you know what? Obviously, The Beatles is well-known because of The Beatles, but The Fall, I think, used to record there. One of my favorite bands, probably not as well-known. So I'm going to say the fall. But yeah, a legendary, I mean, people walking across that.

29:45Zebra Crossing is one of the photo ops in London. I'm sure motorists love it when, you know, when they're trying to get through there. Yeah, Radiohead did a lot there too. Anyway, back to business. To launch the jingle, Chipotle did a four-minute spot interviewing the London Vegetable Orchestra about its experience playing things like carrot flutes and things like that. It's supposed to be emphasizing that the food is so fresh, the ingredients are so fresh at Chipotle, you can literally play them. LVO. So, Nick, when you entered the profession 50 years ago, did you imagine you'd be sitting in a room in a podcast talking about Betty Crocker's 105th birthday and corn flutes?

30:29Nick Ashooh: No, the answer is no. Betty Crocker, props to Betty Crocker. She survived this long where we've seen many other icons. Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima, now granted they were racial stereotypes, but we have now this trad wife, traditional wife controversy. And I wonder if this will get mentioned in that. Yeah. She's the original trad wife, you know. Yeah. And, well, that is a different podcast. We could do a whole show on that. But the trad wife thing seems to, the trend seems to be that that hasn't worked out necessarily with a lot of couples. But anyway, all right, let's talk about safer ground. It's Hispanic Heritage Month, Frank.

31:13Now, of course, marketers should be taking notice of the Hispanic community all year round because it's a massive community. But it's always nice to put it in profile, isn't it, as well? Thank you for not making me talk about the trad lifestyle. I appreciate that. It's big in Park Slope, isn't it?

31:36I'm not commenting on that. All right. So Hispanic Heritage Month, we had a really good analysis on how brands are approaching this this year. And I think people have a lot of questions because so many brands and organizations have dialed back what they previously consider DEI work or work initiatives, campaigns, whatever you want to call them, that are outwardly targeting specific ethnic or racial groups. so um the experts that we talked to for this make the case that hispanic heritage month is kind of like the super bowl you um you have one period of time on a calendar to go really big about it but you should be supporting it year-round anyway uh because this is group of people 70 million people in 2026 incredible amounts of spending power they say four trillion uh in the u.s economy according to the Hispanic Marketing Council.

32:28And it is important to be marketing to not just Hispanic consumers, but all kinds of consumers year-round and to be inclusive in all of this. And they all make a very compelling case of why and how you can be doing this. Yeah, I think Armando Azaloza, former guest on the podcast, said it well, didn't he, about whether we should have months. And he says, yes, we should. But obviously, you know, it should be year-round as well. but he likened it to the Super Bowl, didn't he, for marketing? Yeah, and by the way, and his agency had great research recently about code switching that, yes, the Axis agency, that we did something about.

33:07So you should check that out if you haven't already. Nick, I don't think many people know that actually Marjorie Krauss has Hispanic origin and roots, doesn't she? So she's one of the first Hispanic founders in the PR industry.

33:20Nick Ashooh: Yeah, I didn't realize that part. But yeah, and APCO is very, very multicultural and multi-ethnic, very. With all these things, you know, when I was at Alcoa, you know, we had employee engagement groups for different cohorts. But as we all know, what matters, whether it's a month, whether it's a year, it's got to be genuine engagement. If it looks in any way that it's not genuine, then you're better off not doing it. Yeah, definitely. And that applies to pride as well. I think some of that came over as tokenistic. And yeah. All right. Let's talk about Gen Z, Frank, our favorite subject. I mean, the headline here is fairly, can I say, no shit, Sherlock, on the PR Week pod.

34:07It's like Gen Z uses social media as the most trusted election info source. But actually, there was a lot of depth in that story, wasn't there, that Julia Walker uncovered? Yes. From a survey. Yeah. Yeah, it's not surprising in some levels, but the numbers also do jump off the page at you. 79 % of Gen Z voters reported that social media posts have informed or changed their opinions on who to vote for, which is a little bit frightening if you were more of a consumer of traditional media, because often social media posts lack a lot of context or are more nakedly one-sided than a lot of traditional media posts as well.

34:46But it does go into depth about creators and influencers that Gen Zers follow in the way that they deliver the news and talk about news. Or, you know, you have a lot of cases now of influencers and creators streaming on, you know, streaming on different platforms, Twitch and others, and watching the news and explaining it and things like that. So it's a lot broader than just social media posts. So there is a lot of that. Yeah, Kenny Gold, when he was on from Edelman, was talking about the top 100 news influencers, wasn't he? And a lot of them are talking about politics. So that's what's changed, Nick, isn't it?

35:27It's not ringing up people to do polls. Now it's kind of old-fashioned, old school, and really isn't an accurate reflection of what people are thinking. Because you're getting to them in different ways.

35:38Nick Ashooh: What people are thinking, I think that's, you put your finger on it. So my daughter had a policy for Reddit. And one thing we talk about a lot is that one of Reddit's strengths is it's human-generated content. So Gen Z or anybody can go to these platforms and get different points of view from real human beings, and then they can synthesize that and come to their own conclusions. I think that's a theme. Again, no expert, but I do think that's a theme that runs through some of these things. Yeah, I mean, the problem there is that you get served up with quite a lot of slop and disinformation and misinformation.

36:14Well, you have to filter. Yeah, you do. And for some reason, I get served a lot of Putin and Kim Jong-un videos, which I actually find fascinating. Probably that's why I get served them, because I do watch them just out of like, not because, but they're obviously, they're pro these dictators and yeah, interesting stuff. But we have to filter it in life too, don't we? We do indeed, yeah. So talking of filtering, Carolyn Levitt has joined Fox, Frank, for a well-trodden path, former press secretary, White House press secretary. Yeah, she stepped down in August and that was after she announced the birth of her second child in May.

36:57and went on maternity leave and then came back and then ultimately decided to leave the White House after that. Being a Fox contributor is, like you said, it's a routine path for former Trump press secretaries. It also leaves open the possibility you can do things in the future, like run for governor of Arkansas if you really want to. So, look, she made history as the youngest press secretary ever at the time at the beginning of Trump's second term. So she probably has a second act in mind in terms of what she's going to do. So we shall see. Yeah, Kayleigh McEnany also trod that path, didn't she, and was very much a loyalist.

37:36It'd be interesting to see whether Carolyn Levitt remains a Trump loyalist, you know, in her commentary, given the way it ended over there. Yeah, and a lot of people will point out, I mean, if you read between the lines in a lot of the D.C. political trades and the coverage there, A lot of reporters and people in the know will point out that she is a very different persona in dealing with reporters within the workings of the White House than she is in the briefing room on camera. So, you know, interesting, different perspective. Nick, a fellow native of New Hampshire. Yes, Caroline. Caroline and yourself.

38:16So any insights?

38:17Nick Ashooh: Well, I don't know, Caroline, but she ran for Congress last election. She lost, but she ran a good campaign. She's young. She's very bright. I don't particularly care for the way she handled the media and some other things, too. She certainly kept them in their place. She did, yes. But she's, look, she's got a future. I mean, I don't think anybody can deny that. She'll do well at Fox. But as you say, Frank, the question is, you know, is she going to, maybe she'll come back and run for something else. I don't know. But she, pretty remarkable, you know, to become mother of two White House press secretary at her age.

38:54Nick Ashooh: It's pretty remarkable. Still 30? Yeah, if, yeah. Yeah, no. She's 29 now, so she is under 30. So people would always, we used to get pelters for putting White House press secretaries like Kayleigh McEnany on our power list. These people are powerful, whether you like or dislike their views. And so it's not a. There's one particular person out there who is quite obsessed with this. Yes, indeed. Let's not. Anyway. All right. Let's finish by talking about a couple of agencies, Brunswick and FGS, Leavers and Joiners. Yes. Yes. Romero Prudencio, he recently left his role as Global Director of Communications and Marketing at McKinsey & Company.

39:34He is back at another consultancy by joining Brunswick. He's a partner based in London, and they just recently announced that. So he had been at McKinsey for six years and previously had been at Burson Marsteller and BCW for more than two decades. Very interesting move with an FGS lever. so 15 year veteran of FGS, Jenny Davey, who was the global co-head of its crisis and issues management practice. She is joining Sanctuary, which is another sort of consultancy and special strategic advisory, had been at FGS and its predecessor agencies for more than 15 years. So it's interesting you have two long time top executives at these firms joining, going to some other places.

40:24I'm not as familiar with Sanctuary, and you don't see as many levers from FGS. You don't see many. It's Nick's more joining us. Romero is a great guy, and interesting that he's moving from McKinsey to Brunswick, and he has a brother in the industry, Ramon. It's this area that seems to be growing in PR, the appetite for senior counsel, high-end corporate advice, and that's where you play, Nick, And these firms, Brunswick and FGS, I'm sure are big competitors of yours. But what's your take on that sort of work and the demand for it, right?

41:00Nick Ashooh: Yeah, that's where we are. That's where we're going. And that's where the demand is, more business advisory. With communications is part of that, but it's the advisory function. That's why if you look at APCO's International Advisory Committee, we've got a broad group of talented people from various walks of life. And they're not just window dressing. They actually contribute. And that's why, because it's the business consultancy advisory service. I just want to say Ramirez, terrific guy. He'll do well. Yeah, no, for sure. And that's why I think PR comms is never going to be completely overtaken by AI, because those ends of the business are always going to be based on the human relationships and advice and almost the art of stopping something happening as much as or dealing with a crisis or acting as a shield for the senior executives.

41:59Those things are, you know, an AI robot is going to find that much more difficult than, say, a consumer.

42:05Nick Ashooh: I don't know how AI is ever going to have the nuances that you get with interpersonal interaction with someone. And in the end, it's all about judgment. and I think that's going to be really hard to replicate. Never say never, I guess, but it's going to be hard to replicate. We won't be around to see that, Nick. But anyway, listen, it's been great to chat to you. Many more years at APCO or wherever you end up and, yeah, look after your health and enjoy life. And I've seen you posting on Facebook with your grandkids and expanding family, which looks great. So congrats on that and congrats on a fantastic career.

42:47It's been great to chat to you.

42:48Nick Ashooh: Thanks, Steve. Thanks, Frank. Thank you, Frank. And yeah, big week next week, as we said, the PR Week conference in Chicago. Get your tickets now. So it'll be a slightly different podcast next week as most of the team will be flying up there. But we'll look forward to seeing you then for another show of the PR Week.

43:42We'll see you next time. Grab Aaron Starkman, global CCO of Rethink. Listen, follow, rate, and review wherever you get your podcasts. And for the latest news in our industry, visit campaignlive.com.