Break The Debt Spiral And Regain Your Life

7:23Dave Ramsey:$155 ,000 question. Yeah.

7:26George Kamel:Yeah. I don't know. Like UPS has been great. They've had great benefits, great pay, and they sure taking care of my family. But if I pivot and go to a different career, I'm going to take a significant pay cut. And why? Just cause I've been looking and applying for jobs and had interviews and just anything pivoting from what I'm making currently is going to be a pay cut right off the bat.

7:54Dave Ramsey:Well, what do you want to do with your life that makes$100 ,000 a year? Let's go be one of those.

8:00George Kamel:Yeah, you know, I've always had a drive and passion to go to the police academy, but doing ride-alongs and talking with local officers, it's also not a guarantee thing because a lot of people with military backgrounds, degrees in criminal justice...

8:17Dave Ramsey:Let's not figure out what we can't do. Let's figure out what we can do. You got a little launch pad here if you take this buyout. Let's not sit on it like a hammock. I'm not going to go take a dumbed-down job. Let's use this as a chance to go live your dreams. What is the dream you want to be? Now go be that and use some of this$155 ,000 to get tooled up to do it.

8:58Dave Ramsey:Murphy's Law means if something can go wrong, it will. And it usually happens when you're not prepared. That's why a big part of what I teach is staying prepared for whatever curveballs life throws. Have a fully funded emergency fund. Buy term life insurance and get a will from Mama Bear Legal Forms because the last thing your family needs is trying to figure out what you wanted after you're already gone. I've seen families torn apart because no one wrote things down. A will spells out exactly what you want to happen after you've passed away. No questions, no court dates, no family fights, just clear directions and peace.

9:39Dave Ramsey:It's one of the most loving things you can do. And on MamaBearLegalForms.com, completing your will is fast, easy, and affordable. Peace of mind for your family takes about 20 minutes with Mama Bear. And unlike a lot of other online will companies, the price you see at the beginning is the price you pay at MamaBearLegalForms.com. Go to MamaBearLegalForms.com and use the promo code RAMSEY to save 20%. MamaBearLegalForms.com, promo code RAMSEY.

10:31Dave Ramsey:Bruce is in Columbia, South Carolina. Hey, Bruce, how are you? I'm good. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. How can we help? Well, I'm 64 years old and I've been working for 46 years and I have a little different alignment on retirement than my wife does.

10:52George Kamel:And I have a lot more debt than I should have for somebody that's made the kind of money I have. And I am trying to figure out how to pay down over$230 ,000 in debt within the next year and possibly get retired by 65. Okay.

11:16Dave Ramsey:Where are you going to get$230 ,000?

11:18George Kamel:Well, my income is I make$160 ,000 a year. But the problem is my wife's income is around$30 ,000 a year. And we have$20 ,000 plus in credit card debt and$12 ,000 on a car. my mortgage is 118 000 i have a second mortgage at 36 000 and i've been paying down the credit cards but every time i turn around and look it's higher than it was six months ago how'd that happen well not enough boundaries not enough conversation um i'm i'm trying to get myself Have you guys got money saved?

12:15Dave Ramsey:Do you have a nest egg?

12:18George Kamel:I have a 401k with about$310 ,000. I have an IRA that's between my Roth and my traditional IRA, it's$425 ,000. The Roth portion of that's only about$55 ,000.

12:42Dave Ramsey:Yeah. So you're not going to retire with$230 ,000 paid off in one year. You don't have the money. And your household spending is out of control. So even if you did retire debt-free, the debt's going to come back. Yeah.

13:03George Kamel:I'm coming to that realization. Yeah.

13:05Dave Ramsey:You guys can't live on$160 ,000. How are you going to live on retirement income? What would be your retirement income?

13:15George Kamel:Well, probably about half of that.

13:17Dave Ramsey:Yeah. You can't live on 160. You can't live on 80. Agreed?

13:21George Kamel:Right. Yeah. And the nest egg's not big enough to support retirement at 65.

13:25Dave Ramsey:No, it's not. I mean, it's a good nest egg, but it's not a great one. So, yeah, I mean, it sounds like you guys have never really addressed the issue, and the two of you are going to sit down and go, hey, we're up a creek here. we've got to cut up these credit cards, and we've got to get rid of these car debts, and we've got to get this mess cleaned up, or we're going to be working until we're 80.

13:49George Kamel:Yeah, and the only other income I have is I do have an annuity.

13:53Dave Ramsey:Why do I think you're not going to do that? Because you just completely changed directions after I told you what to do. No, I 100 % adjust.

14:01George Kamel:How long have you been married? 36 years.

14:06Dave Ramsey:Yeah, this is a come-to-Jesus meeting I'm talking about. we're going to sit down and go, this is broken, and we are going to fix it starting now. That's the meeting tonight. No televisions on. Nothing in the background. No dishes being washed while we're talking about it. This is we are screwed, and we have screwed ourselves, ourselves and we have to fix this now and never go back to the old ways. We're going to get on a budget. We're going to open that Ramsey Every Dollar app and the two of us are going to start acting like grown-ups, not like a couple of children in Congress spending money we don't have.

14:54Dave Ramsey:We're going to cut up the credit cards and we're going to clean up this freaking debt so we don't have to work till we're 80. And then you get yourself used to living on$80 ,000 a year while you pay off all this debt, and then when you retire, you can live on$80 ,000 a year because you've got a couple of adults in the household instead of children. And children can be 64, by the way. So that's what, I mean, but you've kind of keep thinking you're going to treat the symptom rather than the problem. And the problem is that you guys spend more than you make, and you don't have a system, and you're not in aligned and you're not agreed in your marriage after 36 freaking years on how we're going to do this.

15:39Dave Ramsey:And so this is going to run off until you're 90 and you're going to be eating dog food. And this is where this is headed. So you've got to go back. You've got to go to the source of the problem, which is not her. It's both of you, but it includes her. And so she's going to get to hear a word that you haven't told her in a long time. And here's the word. No, we're not doing that. We are broke people. And you have to start acting that way, or you're going to, you know, this thing's going to fall in on you. And that's what you're starting to feel. And there's a sense of desperation creeping up inside of you.

16:14Dave Ramsey:The good news is you've got a year, maybe you work two years, maybe you work three years, and you clean this up and end up with a half million dollars in your nest egg instead of 300 ,000. And you got no debt, house and everything's paid off in three years because the two of you got very, very serious starting tonight, ready, set, go. I don't know if you're going to do it or not. I keep thinking about that old Dave quote, you work too hard to feel this broke.

16:36George Kamel:46 years of a career making six figures, which is way more than most Americans. And you got nothing to show for it. And that breaks my heart because we know retirement is not an age, it's a financial number. And so I wish you could just ding a, Hey, I'm 65 time to retire. Not if the math says you can't. And so that's the hard truth. It's been 36 years of compounded bad decisions. It's going to take a little while to clean this up and you guys need to be unified.

17:00Dave Ramsey:Emma's in Los Angeles. Hi, Emma. How are you?

17:03George Kamel:I'm good. Thanks for helping me out today. Sure.

17:06Dave Ramsey:How can we help?

17:07George Kamel:Yeah. So my husband and I were wondering if it's a good idea to pull from a Roth IRA to pay off the rest of my student loan debt.

17:17Dave Ramsey:No. Okay.

17:19George Kamel:That's what I thought. You don't sound like

17:20Dave Ramsey:of retirement age. It's going to cost you millions and millions of dollars in the future. So how much student loan debt have you guys got?

17:28George Kamel:It's about$9 ,300 and that's just my student loan. It's our only debt we have left.

17:35Dave Ramsey:$9 ,300? Like$9 ,300? Correct. What do you guys make?

17:45George Kamel:We are on a variable income. My husband is a steady income, so he makes about $5 ,600 and then my income varies from anywhere from like nothing to$12 ,000 a month. I'm a wedding videographer and so it just depends on the season that I'm in as far as like if I have a wedding or not.

18:06Dave Ramsey:Okay. How many times do you have a$12 ,000 a month?

18:10George Kamel:Last year I had about three or four of those. This year I haven't had one yet. Can you guys live on his income and just

18:18Dave Ramsey:pay off the student loan the next time you have a good month?

18:22George Kamel:It's possible, yeah. My work is very slow right now, so we're in kind of like a tricky season with that.

18:28Dave Ramsey:I know, but I mean, as soon as you get a$12 ,000 a month, just pay the stupid thing off.

18:33George Kamel:Yeah, I think we could probably manage that, yeah. It sounds like your spending has just been high.

18:37Dave Ramsey:You can't be counting on your income because it's too volatile.

18:42George Kamel:Correct, very correct. Right, so where does your income go when it does come? Our expenses are not covered fully by my husband's income. Okay, so you can't live on his income. Okay. Not fully. Why are the expenses so high? Is it your mortgage or rent or what? Because it's not the debt. Yeah, I mean, our rent is kind of high. I mean, not ridiculous for the area, but it's about$2 ,800. And then between just insurance, we have two kids. Yeah, it just adds up. We're in the process of, like, refining things and trying to get really, really serious, especially since my income has been so scary lately.

19:24George Kamel:Yeah, good. I would make a budget and pretend like you have to live on his income and cut the expenses down until you can fit that.

19:30Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I would. I would get your every dollar budget out. And then that takes the pressure off of your business. And when your business starts making a little, you have one of those good months again, you just blink, pass student loan. But no, I would not. The student loans are not your problem. The problem is that you're not living on his income and your income is not dependable. And that's what's throwing you guys into a tizzy.

20:16Dave Ramsey:Finally, mortgage rates have dropped, and you know what that means. People who have been sitting on the sidelines are about to jump back in to the housing market. So if you've been waiting to buy, this could be your window, but you've got to be prepared and do it the Ramsey way. You need to contact Churchill Mortgage. Their Home Buyer Edge program gives you peace of mind in a wild market. You can cap your rate for 90 days, so if rates go up, you're protected. If rates go down, Churchill will drop yours automatically. And get this, Churchill will even back your offer with a$10 ,000 seller guarantee.

20:52Dave Ramsey:So if your loan falls through due to financing, the seller still gets paid. That's how confident Churchill is. Plus, when you shop as a Churchill-certified homebuyer, it's stronger than preapproval. It makes you look like a cash buyer, which makes your offer rise to the top. So don't let this moment pass you by. Get ready now. Go to churchillmortgage.com to get started today. That's churchillmortgage.com. This is a paid advertisement. Homebuyer Edge and Seller Guarantee are available for qualifying

21:21George Kamel:borrowers and select loan types only, and not available in all states or locations. NMLS ID 1591. NMLSconsumerExcess.org. Equal housing lender.

21:46Dave Ramsey:Ever wanted to see the person who's calling to ask a question? Ever wonder what they look like when they're calling here and asking? It'd be kind of interesting, wouldn't it? Yeah. Well, you can experience this. The Ramsey Show is going back on tour. We're going to do live Q &A with the audience and tape one of these shows. Raw confessions, crowd debates, local debt-free screams, games Charlotte, Denver, Phoenix, and Anaheim all in April. These are small venues. We're only having about 300 seats because we want to be able to talk to you guys and take questions from you. Last time we put this out last year it sold out in 72 hours.

22:23Dave Ramsey:So get your tickets at ramseysolutions.com slash events or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on a podcast or on YouTube. Again, Charlotte, Denver, Phoenix, and Anaheim in April just in a few weeks here and we're going to be in those cities and taking questions live studio audience it's a different vibe i'll tell you that but it's also kind of fun isn't it i love being out there we've got some even more fun interactive stuff planned for this next run kelly is in raleigh north

22:51George Kamel:carolina hi kelly how are you hey guys i'm good how are you today better than we deserve what's up i have a question i listen to your show all the time and get some of your feedback that i internalized, but my fiance and I got engaged last November and we planned our wedding for April of 2027. We were looking to buy a house. Hopefully in the next couple of months, we have the money put away for it.

23:18Dave Ramsey:We, why are you waiting to get married so long?

23:22George Kamel:Couple of reasons. One, we wanted to focus our money effort towards the home first. And then And my brother and his brother are also both getting married. One in April this year, one in September this year. So with the help from our parents for our wedding, they're both gifting us a little bit of money to have a bigger and more fun wedding. How old are you, too? I'm 26, and my fiancé's 29. Okay.

23:58Dave Ramsey:I would beg you to not buy a house with someone that you're not married to.

24:04George Kamel:So would it be worth it then to go to a courthouse and get married before we buy a house?

24:08Dave Ramsey:Yes.

24:08George Kamel:And then just have the wedding next year?

24:10Dave Ramsey:Yes. Okay. It changes so many things because I've just, sitting in this seat, taking calls from people that have problems with their money have uh run into so many different ways that they can go sideways because basically from a legal standpoint you've just got a general partnership with no partnership documents and so if something goes sideways like i'll give you a horrible one this is not going to happen to you guys okay but um a guy and his fiance um bought a house together and she died in a car wreck and so without a will and so now he owns

24:52George Kamel:the house with her mother okay because he's not kin to her so the her half was left to her only remaining kin and by the way her mother was crazy oh so my crazy future didn't happen

25:06Dave Ramsey:mother-in-law is now my partner in a house does that make you that makes me throw up just a little bit in my mouth, right? You follow me?

25:14George Kamel:Yeah, that's a little scary. Yeah, that's the kind of

25:16Dave Ramsey:crap we've talked to over the last 30 years, and so we don't want that for you, and so yeah, I do the courthouse and do the celebration later because now we've got a situation. It's also okay to wait after you've been married a while to buy a house. You guys, maybe not, you've kind of got this plan unfolding here. I'm with you, but we always laugh and say marriage is different than shacking up, and it takes about a year of being married to know how close to your mother-in-law to buy.

25:44George Kamel:Yeah, and I hear that because I live with my in-laws, my future in-laws right now. Is that driving? I think that's driving this decision.

25:51Dave Ramsey:You're like, get me out of here. I want a house! Okay, yeah, courthouse.

25:56George Kamel:Part of it, yes. Part of it, no. We were going to consider renting. We didn't want to throw our money away in there.

26:02Dave Ramsey:You could go rent something, but courthouse and rent for a year and then buy is ideal. courthouse and buy after the courthouse is next best thing. Please do not buy a house with someone you're not married to, people. It is a disaster. I mean, there's just no way you can break up. I mean, at least when you're married, the divorce, you know, there are laws that dictate how things are split up and judges will dictate how things are split up, but in a divorce situation. But when you're just, you're shacking up and you own a house with somebody you used to sleep with, It's just really a pain in the box.

26:36Dave Ramsey:Never seen it be a blessing to somebody when they call in. Yeah, it's just a problem, problem, problem. So there we go. Good stuff. Spencer's in Boise, Idaho. Hi, Spencer. What's up?

26:47George Kamel:Hey, Dave. My question is, I'm 24 years old. I'm in college. And I unfortunately have about$15 ,000 in credit card debt, which I am planning to pay off this summer with a good internship I landed. Good. The problem is my parents are pretty adamant that once I pay off this debt, they want me to rebuild my credit and kind of dive back into the debt world to build up my credit, and I'm kind of worried about that. So you want to fight off the lion, and then your parents are saying, hey, jump back into the lion's den. It's good for you. Pretty much.

27:23Dave Ramsey:Makes sense.

27:25George Kamel:Yeah.

27:26Dave Ramsey:Are they paying your way through college? They are helping, yes. Yep. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, there's a couple things here. One is if they're paying for your school and you live with them, you have a different level of obligation to, you know, to honor them and to be kind and so forth. Right. If you're standing on your own and you're out of school and you're doing your own thing and your mom and dad still have an opinion, they don't get a vote anymore. That's not how this works. So, but then the second part of the discussion is what's wrong with their theory. Okay. Their theory is based in the, the idea that you need to go get credit means that they believe that the best way to have a wonderful life is to purchase things and stay in debt the rest of your life.

28:20Dave Ramsey:That that's the best way for you to get things and to have a good life. They believe that. Yeah. And their theory is wrong. Their belief is wrong, and that's at the core of the discussion. So they're not bad people. They're not trying to punish their son or do something bad to their son. They actually do believe a lie that the best way for you to have a good life is for you to have good credit so that you can buy anything you want anytime you want on payments.

28:49George Kamel:Right. Well, then, so how do I have this conversation with them? Because I think, and I obviously agree with you, And I think they would normally agree with you. They're not terrible with their money. They're always telling me to stay out of debt and stuff. But they just kind of keep saying, oh, well.

29:05Dave Ramsey:There's only one reason to build credit, Mom and Dad, and that is to go into debt. And I really don't like debt. And so I really am not going to build my credit because I really don't want to be in debt. It's the only reason to build your credit. It has no other value.

29:23George Kamel:and if you want more info on this i wrote a whole chapter on this in my book covering every single objection so you can read that and then have the conversation with them say hey i know you're worried about me getting an apartment there's easy ways around that i know you're worried about me not being able to get a mortgage one day there's a way around that and so you just have to realize you can rise above the system instead of being stuck in the hamster wheel yeah hang on

29:43Dave Ramsey:we'll send you a copy of that book and read it and might be fun things say hey listen i just read this chapter. You guys read this chapter with me and tell me what you think. And because I just don't, I don't want to be in debt, mom and dad. And because here's the whole, the whole FICO thing is 100 % of your FICO score is based on your interaction with debt. It's an I love debt score. If you don't borrow money, you don't have a FICO score. Ta-da, just like that.

30:11George Kamel:And I've lived it. I mean, I paid off my debt, didn't have a score, still was able to rent apartments all over town, even ones with a landlord, not an apartment complex. I was able to get a mortgage through manual underwriting. And everyone told me, Dave, oh, it's going to be so difficult. You're like, you're going to have to jump through so many hoops. You're going to be exhausted. It was a nothing burger. It was just like, well, you don't have a criminal background. Can you pay the deposit? All right, you're in.

30:34Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

30:35George Kamel:You have the money to pay the mortgage. Great. You got a tax return and 12 months of rental history. Great.

30:41Dave Ramsey:It's not that difficult. No problemo. Yeah. But the only reason to get credit is so you can get into debt, so that you can get credit, so that you can get into debt, so that you can get credit, so that you can get into debt, so you can raise your FICO score, so you can get into debt, so you can raise your FICO score, so you can get into debt. I think it's a scam, boys and girls.

31:03George Kamel:Brownhog Day, and only the lenders win.

31:33George Kamel:This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I am here on this show because some amazing women in my life, like my mentors, my friends, my wife, and my mom, because they invested in me. They're all extraordinary. And one of the common themes I've heard from all of the important women in my life is that between the responsibilities and expectations that the world places on them and the expectations they place on themselves, they are under incredible pressure every day. Women are often encouraged to overlook their own emotional well-being to care for everybody else. Therapy offers a space for women to learn how to navigate those competing expectations, learn how to set healthy boundaries and learn how to communicate what they want and what they need.

32:14George Kamel:To do that, I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform and with over 30 ,000 therapists they have the right person for you. And if the first therapist isn't the right fit you can switch anytime at no additional cost. Your emotional well-being matters. Find support and therapy. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Ramsey to get 10 % off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Ramsey.

32:57Dave Ramsey:Ed is in Jacksonville, Florida. Hi, Ed. How are you?

33:01George Kamel:I'm good. Mr. Dave, how are you?

33:04Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

33:06George Kamel:So my question is, I've got around$300 ,000 in equity in my home, and I've got a total of$240 ,000 in debt, with$140 ,000 of that being the mortgage. Some pretty bad debt within that$100 ,000. And should I sell my house to get out of debt, start over? I'm 43. I have zero retirement. The house is my retirement. I've had a really rough couple of years. Some pretty tough events have happened. and trying to get out of this financial prison, if you will, and there's no money left over to save, and I just don't know what to do. Should I sell the house, refinance the house, stay put, and just try to do the debt snowball?

33:49Dave Ramsey:What's your household income?

33:52George Kamel:Combined with my wife, it's$140, with me bringing in$100 and her bringing in$40. The only caveat to that is after my employer paid health insurance, which is$1 ,700 a month, I'm taking home about$5 ,000 after taxes.

34:10Dave Ramsey:Okay, but you're getting a tax refund.

34:15George Kamel:That's another thing. I owe the IRS$7 ,000 that I'm making payments on that I have left from my wife being self-employed all the way back to$22 ,000 that we're making payments on, so my tax refund goes to that.

34:27Dave Ramsey:Okay.

34:27George Kamel:but that should be paid by this year's tax refund with my monthly payments. I'm really hoping to have that paid off by the end of the year.

34:35Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Okay. And how much do you owe on your truck?

34:41George Kamel:39 ,000.

34:42Dave Ramsey:And that's of the hundred? Yes, sir. Sell the truck.

34:48George Kamel:I'm 10 ,000 upside down. I would have to come out of pocket to be able to sell it. Now I just don't have it.

34:53Dave Ramsey:Still beat selling a house. Yeah. Yeah. You borrow, you know, go to the credit union, borrow the 10K, and then get your$2 ,000 car to drive while you get this mess cleaned up. But 40 % of your problem is the truck.

35:08George Kamel:Okay. So find a way to get the 10K to get out of the truck.

35:11Dave Ramsey:Yeah. I mean, go to the credit union, borrow it. Or who do you owe the money to on the truck?

35:16George Kamel:Ally Financial. The only problem with that, Dave, is my credit takes a hit. We had a house fire in 23, and the insurance paid 80 less than what it cost to build, and I had 40 of that. But I had to beg Rob Peter to pay Paul to find the other 40, which I did. But my credit took such a hit during that time that I'm in the rebuilding phase of my credit.

35:38Dave Ramsey:I don't want you to rebuild your credit. Allied is a subprime lender. They're screwing you. You have a 16 % interest rate, don't you?

35:44George Kamel:It's not that bad. It's 9.5%. Only 14%. It's 9.5%. They do prime as well. They have a subprime program. I work in automotive finance. Yeah.

35:56Dave Ramsey:Well, you're getting destroyed by that car and by the nine and a half. That's, you know, and you can't keep doing that in the name of, quote, rebuilding your credit for the opportunity to borrow money again. I'm trying to break the spiral without selling the house, and I'd sell a car 14 times before I'd sell a house.

36:17George Kamel:The house isn't the problem, and it sort of doesn't change the behavior if you do sell it. That got you into this mess. And then you still got to go rent somewhere, don't you? Yes, sir. And that's horrible, too, because it's going to cost double what my mortgage is. It's just getting my hands on the 10K. So let's get a hold of this amazing income you guys have and just clean this mess up. You sell the truck, you got 61 left, make it 140. Now it's an easy math problem.

36:42Dave Ramsey:Let's live like we're broke for you. You're right. You do have to scratch up the 10 grand, but you scratched up 40 grand. to get a house fire redone. And, um, you know, and that made part of this mess as well. So I would rather you have 10 K on a credit card than I would have 40 on a truck. And, um, you know, you, that's a, that's moving in the right direction then. And again, get you a hoopty. That's not real popular when you're the finance manager at a new car dealership, but I don't really care. Um, you know, I don't care what your buddies think about what you drive. I care about you and you winning.

37:18Dave Ramsey:And so appearances are not something I'm willing to invest in at any stage of wealth building, but certainly not where you are, Ed. So yeah, you've got to do something to break the cycle. And I think selling the house is awfully desperate when you're sitting on a$40 ,000 truck. So I'm finding a way to get that 10K and I'm getting rid of that thing. Austin is with us in Nashville. Hey, Austin, what's up? Hey, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve. How can we help?

37:46George Kamel:Good deal. Yes. So I'm recently engaged. My fiance will graduate from grad school in May of this year, and we're getting married in May of 27. My question for you is, is together, currently we have about$50 ,000 in savings, and we'd be going into our marriage with about$100 ,000 worth of debt. 50 % would be her student loans, and 50 % would be on a fairly low interest rate piece of equipment for my business. My question is, is it smart to use some of our savings or all of our savings, X, Y, or Z, to pay off one of the loans? Or should we hold on to the savings and pay the loans off?

38:35Dave Ramsey:There's not a we or an our. you're not married. Okay. You don't pay somebody's bills that you're not married to. Well, I guess I'm looking, you know, next year when we are married. Well, why don't you just get married? What are you waiting on?

38:53George Kamel:Well, we're waiting for just, nah, I guess we're waiting to get married. Why? But, well, you know, we're going to have family. You're already playing house and acting like you're married.

39:05Dave Ramsey:What's the big deal? Oh, no, we're not playing house. Well, you said we have savings.

39:13George Kamel:Oh, I was just saying collectively.

39:16Dave Ramsey:Okay. Well, you guys individually pay off. Individually, if you want to continue to live separate lives until May of 27 when you're married and you work on you getting your debt paid off, she works on her getting her debt paid off, she would use her savings towards that and you would use your savings towards yours until there's a we. At the point there's a we, we combine everything and we attack it together. Combine incomes and everything else. What's her degree in?

39:42George Kamel:Speech therapy.

39:44Dave Ramsey:Good. Okay. Excellent. So she'll be able to make some good income to offset the student loan she took out, right?

39:51George Kamel:Correct.

39:52Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Good. And let's get that done.

39:54George Kamel:That's what we're looking at. And my business is going well, too. but I guess just the big thing is how obviously we want to knock our debts out as quickly as possible or individually.

40:09Dave Ramsey:That's the goal, but should we take out a savings to do so? Yes. And you should stop adding to savings until you get the debt cleaned up because the debt is sucking the marrow out of your cash flow. Your most powerful wealth building tool is your income and you're writing checks every month to other people instead of to yourself. Okay. And that keeps you from building wealth. And so your first impediment, your first blocker for building wealth is the debt. So when you clear the debt, you don't have any payments in the world. Now we got money. And then we build an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses.

40:49Dave Ramsey:And then we start putting 15 % of our income away towards retirement. And pretty soon you'll be a millionaire doing that. But you've got to get rid of all these stupid payments and talking about interest rates. And I don't give a crap about the interest rates. My interest rates are zero because I haven't had a debt in 30 years. And so that's my interest is zero. I got you beat.

41:08George Kamel:And that risk on the business is bigger than you think. All it takes is a few bad months. Now you can't pay the equipment. And we get that call a whole bunch. Hey, the business failed, but I still owe a bunch of money on this equipment. What do I do? And you're selling it for pennies on the dollar trying to clean up the mess. So I would move forward cleaning up this debt. and maybe by the time you're married, you both are debt free. How cool would that be? That's an idea.

41:29Dave Ramsey:Oh, okay. Yeah, that, that.

41:31George Kamel:Use some of the savings and future income.

41:33Dave Ramsey:But only after you're married do you combine everything. And when you come home from the honeymoon, now we have debt and now we have savings and now we have a dog and now we have, until then it's your dog, until then it's your problem, right? And of course the dog pees on the floor, then it's your dog. So it doesn't matter, even if you're married. So that's how that works. I know that life. Look at what your dog did. Yeah. And to which I say, look at what your daughter did.

41:59George Kamel:Oof. Now, who's cleaning up the mess in the Ramsey house?

42:03Dave Ramsey:Oh, Bella the Bear Dog is my responsibility. And Sharon made that clear. Yeah, just because Bella the Bear Dog eats Sharon's stuff. Oh. And so Bella the Bear Dog stays on serious probation at all times. You got a line item in the every dollar budget. I think I'm on the fourth or fifth set of earbuds for my wife recently. Oh, no. Yeah. Would you please put those things where the dog can't get to them? Is it still in the dog? At what point is it the dog's fault? Is it passing through or is it still in the dog? I have. No, I don't want to talk about it. Dave doesn't want to know. I don't want to talk about it.

42:35Dave Ramsey:That's someone else's problem.

42:52Dave Ramsey:statistics show that half of americans don't have enough life insurance or they don't have any at all i don't understand this john why don't people want to take care of their family they think they're going to die or something? Well, I used to be one of those guys.

43:07George Kamel:I didn't even think about it. And one of my buddies said, hey, the only reason to not have life insurance is if you hate your wife and kids. And I immediately went and got term life insurance. That's a gut punch. And you're telling me for decades, Dave, I've sat across people who've lost a spouse. They've lost somebody important to them. Me too.

43:24Dave Ramsey:They don't know what to do next. Me too. I mean, you're going to have a crisis here. And you got two options while you're sitting and talking to a young widow. She's concerned about how she's going to invest all this money properly and not mess this up, or she's concerned how she's going to eat tomorrow. That's exactly right. These are the two options. And take care of your dadgum family, man.

43:42George Kamel:Term life insurance can replace income, pay off debts, cover funeral expenses, so your family can actually have the opportunity to just be sad.

43:49Dave Ramsey:Yeah. To just miss you. That's exactly what it's supposed to be. It's saying I love you to your family. Term life insurance. Jeff Zander and the team at Zander Insurance makes it easy and affordable. I've used them personally for 25 years. They're the only people I trust. Go to Xander.com or call 800-356-4282.

44:23Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, George Camel, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author and co-host of Smart Money Happy Hour on the Ramsey Network, is my co-host today. Nate is in Nashville. Hi, Nate. How are you? I'm doing good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up?

44:46George Kamel:So I'm an independent songwriter and music producer, so my income is very inconsistent, and I've had a lot of good years and a lot of bad years. So me and my wife have been okay with that kind of inconsistency in income until last year in December, our baby had to be delivered extremely prematurely. And at the same time, my wife was diagnosed with lupus. So both our baby and my wife have been in the hospital, you know, pretty much all throughout the beginning of this year. And with all of this kind of medical uncertainty, basically, that we're going into with this. Um, I am trying to figure out if, um, I have the option to do something called a catalog sale, which in music is, is kind of like selling a business.

45:35George Kamel:It's just, um, getting a lump sum for all of the songs, um, that I've, that I've made. Um, and I have the option to do that. And I'm kind of wondering if it's a smart move to just, um, take the sale, um, and invest that money and live off of the interest or if I should just keep working and try to maybe find a way to make my

46:00Dave Ramsey:income a little more consistent. Yeah. Nate, I'm sorry you guys are going through this. It rocks your world when the baby's sick and when mama's sick too, it's double. That's a tough, tough thing. And when you're an artist, it particularly is rocky. So as you guys, as you know, I'm in Nashville And so I've got lots and lots of friends in the business that have sold catalogs. And so I'm fairly familiar with it. Typically what happens in your world is that the money that you make from the songs is the value that the catalog has. Right? Right. and so what typically happens as you know and everybody else knows if you think about it is when a song comes out particularly if you get a good hit um it'll peak within a few months and then uh depending on how big a hit it is it'll continue to feed out and pay out but gradually the the payout deteriorates over time on every song agreed yes yes that's correct okay so it goes up Big nice thing, big splash.

47:06Dave Ramsey:Everybody's smiling. Everybody's happy. We collect a statue or two, and then we go on and start. But then the income associated with a hit from five years ago is way different than the income associated with a hit this year. And so what you're trying to figure out is, and that's how they value the catalogs. They value them based on what they think they can make on it over time, right? Yep. And so they're looking at that deterioration. And so anything you write the year after you sell the catalog is yours. You're not selling your future hits. You're only selling the past ones. And so that block of income starts at one level and goes down every single year when they buy that catalog.

47:54Dave Ramsey:Right? Right. Yes. And so that's how they're valuing it. So that's also how you make the decision as to whether you want to keep it or not. Some artists, friends of mine, want to keep it just because those songs are like their babies. They don't want to let them go. They're very attached to them emotionally.

48:09George Kamel:It's like a legacy for them.

48:11Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And others view it on a pure business factor and go, you know, I can get X number of million dollars for this thing, and I'm going to keep on in the business, and I'll make my future there, but this gives me a lump sum to stabilize my life which sounds like kind of how you're thinking so what are they offering you for the catalog um it would be around four million good oh you've done a great job congratulations you've had some good stuff man all right how old are you

48:38George Kamel:i'm 33 yeah what was a good year for you like what are you normally making in a year um well my last year was my best year um and i made just about a million um and that's why i'm a little bit not sure because if I do a deal with an LTM dealers for the last 12 months, I would get like a, about a times four, um, on my catalog sale. Um, but I'm also not sure, like if I continue to write, maybe I can make that number go up and then my catalog sale could be worth, you know, there's nothing to say you couldn't sell another catalog.

49:08Dave Ramsey:That's true. You know, it's just, this is one block of songs, one library. Okay. Um, and so, but here's the deal. Okay, so if you got$4 million today, but you would get$1 million next year and$800 the next year, would you rather have that stream of income? Because that stream of income is going to be there. Right. And so, you know, what I would say is if you project that you're going to make a fourth of this in the coming 12 off of this catalog, I'm probably keeping that. Okay. Because you're going to get$1 million of the$4 million right now. And so we're only got a$3 million swing. And what have you got$3 million for?

49:50Dave Ramsey:You're going to get that$3 million in the next five years. Yeah. Yeah.

49:55George Kamel:I think just with the, um, just seeing how crazy these swings can be in music, um, and just, you know, not, not having that certainty, especially with, well, it's not, it's not,

50:05Dave Ramsey:it's not a horrible deal and it's a fairly standard process. Like you said, they're doing about four X on the LPM. So that's a fairly standard formula, and they're not ripping you off. The question is, what do you want? And it sounds like with your family situation that you can restart your career fresh with$4 million in an investment, which if you put it in a good investment, it'll make you$400 ,000 a year. Right. And forever.

50:32George Kamel:And that's without you producing future income. Yeah.

50:36Dave Ramsey:And on top of that, and you've got that for your baseline to operate your household on and relax. And then you still go to work every day. You still go down there and sit and write every day like you were desperate and broke and hungry. But you're not desperate and broke and hungry anymore. But you still write like that. You still work like that. Because my experience with the songwriters is, you know, you have to go to work every day. It's not random. them you guys you guys grind those things out most of the time right uh yeah and then you know

51:08George Kamel:i haven't been able to do as much this year i really haven't been able to do much at all just with the medical situation and so that's yeah but i'm not talking about i'm not i'm not shaming you

51:18Dave Ramsey:about that what i'm talking about is just because you've got four million dollars in a mutual fund doesn't mean you can quit work right absolutely mom and baby are healthy and you're ready to go back to work go back to work nate you've got a talent go use it okay don't get lazy because you got 400k or four million dollars and you're making 400k do you believe you're talented enough to go create another million dollar year in the future no question if he built that catalog he can do it yeah i think i think i can i think i would be able to do it i'm i'm just putting myself in your shoes i'm taking the deal yeah i am too i like what it does for you it stabilizes your life You've got a family to be responsible for.

51:57Dave Ramsey:You're not just a kid with a guitar in a room with too much coffee. You know, you've now got other stuff going on. So I'm with you, man. I'll take the volatility of the stock market over the volatility of the music industry. It's not that volatile. It's very predictable. It's going to go down. Yeah, exactly. It's very predictable. We just talked about the stream of income deteriorates. The S &P 500 has only gone up over time. Yeah, so I'm going to take$400K a year off of that$4 million, live on that, or$300K and live on that, and let that sit there. Get with a SmartVestor Pro, you know, click at Ramsey Solutions, Nate, and sit down with one of the folks we recommend.

52:34Dave Ramsey:They'll sit down and put together, and believe me, they're in Nashville. They've worked with catalog sales before, too. They know what it is. It's a fairly, you know, in our community, we're in a music community, it's a fairly common occurrence.

53:10George Kamel:If you're looking for a more budget-friendly way to save on medical costs and stay true to your values, Christian Healthcare Ministries is a great option to think about. CHM is not health insurance. It's a health cost-sharing ministry, a biblical community-based way for Christians to share each other's medical bills. That means no enrollment deadlines, and you can choose any doctor or hospital you want. That kind of freedom is big, especially if you're self-employed, between jobs, or you just need something that fits your budget better. CHM has been around for decades, faithfully serving the Christian community.

53:47George Kamel:And many members save hundreds of dollars a month compared to traditional health insurance. And that margin gives you breathing room when you're working the baby steps and trying to steward your money well. And right now, CHM's offering new members a 50 % credit towards their first month of membership. Get started at chministries.org slash budget and use promo code RAMSEY. That's chministries.org slash budget and promo code Ramsey.

54:23Dave Ramsey:Tax season is upon us to get free checklists and guides that'll help you file. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash taxes. Brandy is in Tulsa. Hi, Brandy. How are you?

54:36George Kamel:I'm good, Dave. How are you?

54:37Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

54:40George Kamel:so my husband and i um we together have about 65 000 in debt 50 000 of that is our auto loan which is about a thousand a month and we're barely staying current on it um we are behind on rent which just started in February. The deal with that was that we were working a job where we got the house for free, but the job only paid like$1 ,000 a month. So obviously not sustainable. Our bills are about$3 ,800 a month. He does have a new job now that is bringing in$3 ,600 a month. as of February 1st. So we're behind on rent, barely staying current on the car. We have not filed taxes yet. We should be doing that this week.

55:48George Kamel:Our plan is to get current on rent, and then about half of that we owe. So the last boss we had, about half of, we're expecting about$5 ,000 to$6 ,000 return. So we're going to owe him about half of that. For what? We're just wondering, like, how do we...

56:15Dave Ramsey:Why do you owe him thousands of dollars, the guy you worked for?

56:19George Kamel:we well my husband accidentally broke a piece of equipment that resulted in about that much

56:27Dave Ramsey:to fix it yeah but that doesn't mean your husband is reliable is had he borrowed the equipment or was he operating the equipment while he was being employed he was operating equipment while being

56:41George Kamel:employed. Why does that make your husband liable? He feels bad for breaking the equipment because the owner doesn't make him liable.

56:55Dave Ramsey:You're broke. I don't care how bad he feels. Okay, if George drops his computer that I own on the way out of the studio today and breaks it, George does not have to pay for it. Yes.

57:13George Kamel:Okay. That's how it works when you have employees. Did he sign some agreement saying that he's liable for any accidents or damages? Not yet. He did tell him that he wants to pay him that, that he's owed that. Why? He did come to us with an agreement. Why? Why?

57:35Dave Ramsey:On what basis does the employer think the employee has to pay for broken equipment?

57:45Dave Ramsey:What was the moral foundation of this? This is cray-cray.

57:50George Kamel:I think it was just my husband's...

57:54Dave Ramsey:Stupidity. This is a month of his pay. You guys, okay. Number one, the landlord is on hold. Period. I mean, the former boss, if you ever pay him, it's not going to be anytime soon. Number one. Number two, sell this stupid butt car. This car is insanity. What is this thing?

58:21George Kamel:So I do have a question on that now that you bring that up. It is a 2025 Dodge Durango. I bet it is. Yeah, we bought it last year. when we were making about$5 ,000 a month, and we had that job for about a year and a half.

58:40Dave Ramsey:That doesn't mean you need to be stupid.

58:42George Kamel:I know.

58:44Dave Ramsey:$50 ,000 Dodge Durango for$1 ,000 a month? It's killing you. How far underwater are you on this thing?

58:54George Kamel:It is worth, by Kelly Blue Book, about$26 ,000. What? How is that even possible? Do you guys drive this thing to the ground already in a year? We drive about 35 ,000 miles a year. Why? During that time, we were traveling more for work, and we travel about a round trip. Did you trade a car that was upside down into this deal? I'm sorry?

59:25Dave Ramsey:Did you trade another deal, another car that was upside down into this deal? Do you roll over negative equity? Because even at 35 ,000 miles, a Dodge Durango should not have lost half of its value in one year. They suck, but they don't suck that bad.

59:38George Kamel:Yeah, so we had about$10 ,000 of negative equity on the old vehicle that we rolled into it. Okay, that makes more sense. So it was$40 ,000 down to$26 ,000 because you drove it to the ground. Okay, that makes more sense at least. Is there any other debt? um we have 9 000 uh about 9 400 about 5 500 of that is personal loans and the rest is credit

1:00:05Dave Ramsey:okay all of that's on hold until you get your rent current and keep your truck current until you figure out a way to get out of this truck and the landlord and the ex-employer does not get any of your tax refund until you are out of debt and even then they probably don't get any money there you you do not pay for broken equipment when you work for someone that's not how life works okay if i own if i own a heavy equipment operation i got six bulldozers and one of the guys breaks a bulldozer he doesn't have to pay for it i have to pay for it i'm the owner that's how it works the owner's taking the risk here the owner takes the risk that's what owning a business is and even if the guy uh you know made a mistake and tore it up it's still on the owner not on the employee.

1:00:52Dave Ramsey:And so what you guys are engaging in, I don't understand the moral code by which you've come to this decision or your husband thinks he's liable. He's not. There's no code I've ever been around that says he's viable.

1:01:05George Kamel:He might feel guilty, but he's not liable.

1:01:07Dave Ramsey:He feels bad for tearing up the guy's stuff. That he should do. That's an honorable man, but it does not make you need to pay for it. And for sure you don't pay for it when your rent's not current and you can barely pay your car payment. So you guys got to get rid of the car and get current on food, lights, water, transportation, and rent. And don't get behind on those things again. And never again, never again buy a car on debt. The rest of your life, this should be the last one. Because you guys are handcuffed. This thing has a gun to your head. You have nowhere to go. And I'm not sure how you're going to get out of this truck.

1:01:45Dave Ramsey:It's a mess. you're gonna need to save up the difference yeah you got two bad deals tied together here and you're at 50 you know sub i don't know i don't know how you're gonna do that he's gonna need to make a whole lot more money and i don't know if you're working outside the home but i think you're gonna need to get a job as well yeah you guys are all gonna have to be working all the time for the next three years and clean up a lot of this mess but you got because everything you've touched has gone backward for the last two years you've gone back you've gone deeper in the hole deeper in the hole deeper in the hole and you've got to turn that around and income turns that around and then stop doing ridiculous decisions turns that around.

1:02:20Dave Ramsey:And so if you go near a car lot to buy a car on payments again, I can't help you. You've got to stop that. It's just destructive. And so, oh man, what a mess.

1:02:35George Kamel:We're seeing a higher and higher percentage of people taking on car loans over a thousand dollars.

1:02:39Dave Ramsey:It just keeps going up. And let me also tell you guys out there. This is the second or third time today that we've taken these calls. So here's your order of priority, and you do not violate this order of priority. The first thing you do with money that comes into your household, without exception, you buy groceries. Not restaurants. You buy groceries for your family. Your family eats before you do anything. The next thing you do is you keep the lights and the electricity on. You have to have that to operate. And almost everyone, even in a horrible crisis, can put the money together to do those two things.

1:03:24Dave Ramsey:The next thing you do is you stay current on the rent so you're not freaking homeless. You stay current on your mortgage, you stay current on the rent. Period. The next thing, after the rent is current, is the car. not the car and then the rent. You did that backwards, Brandy. You keep rent current because if they take the car, you at least got a place to live. If they take the house, you're living in the car. We don't want to do that.

1:04:10Thank you.

1:04:19George Kamel:Hey guys, George here. Listen, 99 times out of 100, when people say, I don't know where my money goes, it's not a math problem. It's a behavior problem. They're not budgeting, then they're shocked when their bank account hits triple zeros. Well, here's the deal. Winning with money is about doing the boring stuff consistently. And that includes banking someplace that helps you stop guessing with your money, like Fairwinds Credit Union. They're not going to fix your habits. That part's on you. But they do support people who are ready to take control of their money. At Fairwinds, you get a high-yield savings account with a great rate to help grow your emergency fund, a checking account that won't nickel and dime you, and up to 10 free savings accounts so you can organize your money on purpose.

1:04:57George Kamel:Because when you stay disciplined, your money gets predictable, manageable, and boring in the best way. So if you're ready for a bank that helps you be intentional, open your smart bundle today at fairwinds.org slash Ramsey and get the Ramsey Be Weird debit card to go along with it. That's fairwinds.org slash Ramsey, insured by the NCUA.

1:05:36Dave Ramsey:The Ramsey Question of the Day is sponsored by YRefi. if your private loans or student loans are in default, it's a mess. But Y-Refi can help clean it up. Y-Refi helps borrowers refinance with low fixed rate payments and get a clear plan forward so you can clean things up and get back to making real progress. Go to Y-Refi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states. Today, we've got two

1:06:05George Kamel:related questions. First is from Craig in Georgia, who asks, what will the market do based on what's going on in Iran? And Alan in Indiana asks, my daughter is going to college in August. With the stuff going on in Iran, should I change her 529 plan to an age-based investment? So, Dave, people are spooked by what's going on. It obviously affects the economy, at least temporarily. And And so they're wondering, should I make any changes to the way I'm investing right now? No.

1:06:36Dave Ramsey:That was easy. You should not change a thing. Okay. If you go back throughout history, every time there's a burp in the geopolitical world, every time Donald Trump burps or Joe Biden burps, or there's an October 7th attack by Hamas and they kill innocent babies in Israel, or there's the Israelis now and the United States bombing the crud out of Iran for a few days. When you go back through history, you're going to see that generally what happens, there's a one or a two-day, sometimes a 30-day period of time that the market will go down. Those that ride roller coasters only get hurt if you jump off in the middle of the ride.

1:07:25Dave Ramsey:give me an example anybody remember that little thing covid there was a little thing we had called covid 19 it was a little problem we had a few years ago and it was going to crash the entire world economy and everything and the market dove when everything started sheltering in place and uh you know everybody had to go home and all all these everything started shutting down and all this, the market dove and it went down and down and down and down and down and down. 57 days later, it was back up to where it started. Hmm. Oh, yeah. When the bombs first started falling on Iran the other day, the market dove.

1:08:12Dave Ramsey:It went down a couple of points. It's been a week or two. It's back up. um the market's basically flat as of this as of this recording for this year and um net net net out of all the ups and downs and backs and forth if you jump in or jump out every time you see a bad report on cnn or fox you are never going to stay invested and you're never going to make any money and so no you don't do age-based investments for 529s for god's sakes and you don't ever do that and you don't sit and fret about what the market's going to do based on a war, if you even call it a war, based on a series of bomb runs.

1:09:04Dave Ramsey:So, I mean, again, the markets just are not that tender and here's the thing. You should never put money in mutual funds that you're going to leave alone a week. You should never put money in mutual funds that you're going to leave alone for a month. You should never put money in mutual funds if you're going to leave it alone for six months. You should never put money in mutual funds unless you're going to leave it alone three to five years. And over three to five years, all of these problems that drive the market down become a distant memory. And all you will see is a trend line overall up.

1:09:41George Kamel:So here's my investing strategy. Time in the market beats timing the market. And what you're doing when you get spooked by this is you're timing the market. And what you're really doing is you're selling low and then you're going to buy high because you don't know when the bottom is. So what do you do? You cash out hoping that you're going to avoid this big dip. And then what happens is when you get back in, it's already back to record highs. And so you're really lost out because the best days usually happen after the worst days. So what Dave and I are doing, we're not changing our investing strategy at all.

1:10:12Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And your daughter goes to college in August. By August, it'll be a memory. By the next August, and by the way, you don't need all of her 529 money the first year she goes to school. If you do, she didn't have much in the 529 to start with. And so you're just going to take out enough to pay for that year's or that six month or that semester. That's all you're going to use. And so the vast majority, let's say you got enough for four years in the 529. OK, the vast majority of what you need is not going to be used for two to three more years. And so over the next two to three years, you know, the bombing of Iran will be a distant memory.

1:10:50Dave Ramsey:And it's a much smaller blip on the radar, no pun intended, than than COVID was. COVID was a real thing in terms of what it did to the market, but it recovered dramatically fast. after that. And so you go back and look at March of 20 and watch what the stock market did. Go look at the chart for March of 20, and you'll see it come right back up in April and May and June. And these age-based investments, they, for people that don't understand what it's doing is

1:11:22George Kamel:moving your investments to more conservative things like bonds as your kid gets into the college phase so that it sort of stabilizes. But what you're missing out on is the returns. Look at the last three years. It was up 23%, 25%, 17%. And if you are half in bonds, you're not going to see those returns.

1:11:40Dave Ramsey:Yeah, and you've affected your kid's ability to go to college at that point. So no, no, no, no, no. If every time you get afraid by watching the news, quit watching the news. Because, you know, it doesn't matter, you know? Like we were going to Cabo the other day, and some of my friends' wives are like, oh they have problems in Mexico you can't go to Cabo and I'm like it's not it's in it's in Cancun I mean it's like they got a problem in Chicago so I'm not going to Nashville that's just dumber than crud and people's perception of stuff so um oh I'm canceling what are you canceling for we're not even we're not a thousand miles away they burned a car in Chicago so you're not going to Nashville I mean that's just dumb so it's the same thing here it's overreaction, the fear porn that the news media just spreads all the time.

1:12:33Dave Ramsey:And so turn off your television is a good idea for your investing strategy. And just get off the Fox website because it's just, the world's coming to an end. The world's coming to an end. The world, Chicken Little lives there full time. The sky is falling. The sky is falling. I want phones here at 888-825-5225. James is in Raleigh. Hi, James. How are you? Good. And yourself? Better than I deserve. How can I help?

1:12:58George Kamel:Um, so I went through my financial traction, uh, transactions the other day and on my wife's phone, I found that she has spent, uh, a minimum of about$5 ,000 sending to one person because she has an addiction to pain pills that we're currently trying to get under control. And she has dealt with five or six people over the course of the last year. And I've been noticing more and more money go missing. and I had about$600 saved up, and that went missing. And every time that I asked her about it, where the money went, she can't give me a straight answer.

1:13:35Dave Ramsey:If your wife is addicted to drugs, take her off of all of the accounts.

1:13:41George Kamel:Well, I did, and that was the problem is that she will grab my phone while I'm asleep. I'm a truck driver, so I'm home two, maybe three nights to eat. Put a passcode on.

1:13:50Dave Ramsey:Put a passcode on your phone, man. She cannot have, if she's an addict, she cannot have access to funds.

1:13:58George Kamel:Okay, and at this point now, I don't want to leave her because we do have two kids together. They're both getting ready to start school.

1:14:05Dave Ramsey:That doesn't mean she has to have access to funds. She has no access to money, period, if she's an addict. It's not good for her, dude. She'll kill herself. And I've tried to explain that to her. I don't care about what she thinks. I don't have to explain it. You get no money until you're a clean of drugs, period. I'm not explaining. I'm telling. I'm protecting you from yourself, and I'm protecting us from you until you get off these pain pills and you're dry. And so we've got to get you some help for that, baby doll. I love you, and we're going to walk through this together. But you've got no money.

1:14:46Dave Ramsey:I'm not giving you you have no access to no money no how nowhere when you're doing drugs period that that's that's an that's a non-starter you just got to start with that and end with that and make sure she's actually getting the help she needs to get healed man and then when she gets healed and becomes trustworthy again worthy of trust then we start working this like two functioning adults together but until then no

1:15:38Dave Ramsey:Angela is in Phoenix. Hey, Angela, what's up?

1:15:42George Kamel:Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. I'm excited to see you guys next month in Phoenix.

1:15:46Dave Ramsey:Yay! Glad you're coming. How can we help?

1:15:49George Kamel:I was in a car accident in April of 2020. I'm okay and went through several physical therapy sessions, like maybe eight sessions. I was represented by a law firm. Fast forward in 2023, the case closed and I only got$4 ,000 settlement after everything said and done. And they told me everything was settled and was asked to find a client directive. and I was only 24 at that time and no nothing, no nothing, anything better. Fast forward to 2026. Last week I got an email from physical therapy that I owe them$3 ,800 because the law firm didn't pay them and I didn't have to pay for it. Um, there's six years from now, I was able to confirm that everything was legitimate and I just don't know what to do.

1:16:36George Kamel:Do I just pay them? Have you talked to the law firm? No, not law firm, the physical therapy.

1:16:43Dave Ramsey:I know. You said the law firm was supposed to pay it and they didn't.

1:16:47George Kamel:Yes, they didn't.

1:16:48Dave Ramsey:Did you call the law firm that was supposed to pay it and didn't?

1:16:52George Kamel:They didn't. They told me that.

1:16:55Dave Ramsey:Did you call the law firm that was supposed to pay the bill?

1:17:00George Kamel:Yes, I did. What did they say? They told me that at that time they said they cannot get a physical therapy. No, I'm talking about this week.

1:17:10Dave Ramsey:yes this week you got a bill that they were supposed to have paid did you call them this week and say how come i got a bill that you were supposed to pay it's not even a bill it's just an email from honey did you call the law firm i did call the law firm okay geez what did they say

1:17:28George Kamel:they said at that time in 2023 before they closed the settlement they cannot get a hold hold of the physical therapy. That's why they asked me to find the directives clients that I have to take care of everything. But from what I can remember, they told me everything was settled, even the medical bills from the hospital.

1:17:50Okay.

1:17:50Dave Ramsey:So you signed off knowing at the time they have a piece of paper in their file that says you knew at the time that they had not paid the physical therapy.

1:18:00George Kamel:No, they told me at that time that everything was settled and I don't have to worry about anything and come six years after you know the physical therapy was emailing last week about it I got that what I'm trying to figure out

1:18:13Dave Ramsey:is what the law firm is what's their excuse for not having paid this and how did they say it was your fault they said that at that time they cannot get a hold

1:18:22George Kamel:of that physical therapy that's what they told me last week that doesn't

1:18:29Dave Ramsey:matter. They still have to pay it. Whether they got a hold of them or not.

1:18:34George Kamel:You're telling me for three years they haven't been able to get in touch with the physical therapy place? No. From 2020 to 2023, they didn't settle it. Yeah.

1:18:49Dave Ramsey:Okay. Well, I think I'm going to be talking to the lawyer that was supposed to have paid the bill, and I don't really want to hear any excuses about why they didn't pay the bill and they need to call the physical therapy company and get this settled because that was their job originally. They withheld money from your settlement to pay your bills and then they didn't do it.

1:19:13George Kamel:Yes, the settlement was$14 ,000 and it only got$4 ,000 in total.

1:19:21Which means you got nothing by the time you pay this bill.

1:19:27Dave Ramsey:so the only person who made any money on this was the lawyer oh there's a shock okay oh my gosh all right well i i'm gonna be all up in the business of this law firm saying you guys are supposed to have paid this bill and you didn't and you need to contact them and you need to negotiate this and um at you know if it does land back on you angela you probably can settle it for four or 500 bucks. And, um, just tell them it's a, it's a, you know, it's a six year old bill and, um, you haven't gotten it so far in six years and I'm not paying you. The law firm was supposed to pay you, but I will, I will give you$500 for settlement in full.

1:20:07Dave Ramsey:And then you can go after the law firm. They're supposed to pay it if you want to do that. But, um, you know, if you want to settle it, that's fine. Or you want to dump it in the back in the lap of that law firm, I'm dumping it back in the lap of the law firm. I'm going to have some real stern conversations with them about how they should have taken care of this at the time. And I'm not sure I understand what your deal was with them completely, but it sounds like they were supposed to have taken care of this and didn't.

1:20:32George Kamel:And I'd find some documentation right now. It's well, they said, yeah, five years ago that they were going to do this thing. I'd get some, what did you sign in writing? What did it say?

1:20:41Dave Ramsey:Yeah. But a medical bill, regardless of how, what the story is, a medical bill that has been unpaid for six years, you can settle it for pennies on the dollar. And so just make them a$500 offer to go away, and they'll go away and give them 500 bucks and get it in writing and keep the piece of paper forever once you settle this. That's probably your easiest route, but there's something about the justice, the injustice of the law firm being the only one that actually makes any money on this transaction. Oh, geez, don't get me started

1:21:15George Kamel:Is it one of those billboards that she caught one of those numbers? They took her to the cleaners on this one, getting 70 % of the payout.

1:21:23Dave Ramsey:No, they got it all. Well, she said she got$4 ,000. Yeah, but now she owes$3 ,800. Which takes it down to zero. They were supposed to have paid, and if they had paid that, she would have got nothing. So they got it all. That's my point. That thing's net sum of zero. I'd be the squeaky wheel. Yeah. So I'm getting up in some folks' business here at a minimum just to have some fun with this. and then um because there's nothing more fun than yelling at lawyers um that's that's about my like one of my favorite things that pass time for dave so um i'm sorry about that sorry you're facing that if you want the easy way out i just settle it for 500 bucks call the physical therapy people and say the lawyer's supposed to pay it i don't know it i'm going to turn it over to them or i'll give you 500 bucks for settlement in full but i'm not giving you 3 800 period not going to sue me Laura's in Washington DC hi Laura how are you hi thank you for taking my call sure what's up

1:22:18George Kamel:so my question is how do we navigate wanting to start a family but still being in baby step two uh just start a family I don't wait to get I don't wait to get out of debt to have kids what are your concerns what are you worried about um I think we just feel like anxious and fearful that everyone says having a kid is a big expense.

1:22:44Dave Ramsey:It's not. They don't eat much. They're tiny.

1:22:50George Kamel:Yeah.

1:22:51Dave Ramsey:They really don't. Do you guys have any money saved? No, they're in baby step two.

1:22:56George Kamel:You got$1 ,000? Yes. Okay. So let's just stack up cash once you're pregnant and go, all right, for the next nine months, we're just going to save and save and save and save. And once you and baby are home safe, we can push play on the debt snowball.

1:23:08Dave Ramsey:But for now, just make your minimum payments. No, for now, you pay full debt snowball. You pay everything on the smallest debt. When and if you get pregnant, then you push pause on your debt snowball and pile up cash instead of reducing debt until baby comes. Okay? And then you use that cash to pay on the debt if baby comes. I mean, I'm sure you've got health insurance, don't you? Yes. Okay. Covers labor delivery, right?

1:23:39George Kamel:yes okay good so you can find out your deductible your out-of-pocket max what's your household

1:23:44Dave Ramsey:income uh 240 gross 240 thousand dollars gross gross yeah well it's not gross at all that's pretty cool yeah i think you can afford a baby kid okay people have babies or six i don't care i mean you you're you're in good shape you're fine you're fine there's nothing to be anxious about Yeah, but you do have to focus and be thoughtful. But children do not cost$300 ,000. It's not that big a deal. I mean, a little money on some diapers and formula, and they don't take up much room. Unless you go crazy, go spend$100 ,000 redoing the nursery that the kid doesn't even know is there. But that's you going crazy.

1:24:26Dave Ramsey:That's not the kid. That's you. But, I mean, they just need a place to sleep. And so I was with a guy the other day. Where was I? And he was telling this story. Oh, I know where I was now. And he said when he was born, his parents lived in a one-bedroom studio apartment. And they had a dresser drawer thing, chester drawers, that they bought at a garage sale. And they opened up the top drawer, and that was his bassinet. That's incredible. That's old school right there. That's how he started out life. And he doesn't even remember. And he's a wealthy guy. That's incredible. Yeah. So, yeah, kids don't cost much.

1:25:09Dave Ramsey:You just need a dresser drawer. Just a sturdy one.

1:25:36Dave Ramsey:welcome back to the ramsey show in the fair winds credit union studio i'm dave Ramsey, your host, George Camel. Ramsey, personality, is my co-host today. We're so glad you're with us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Marie is in Philadelphia. Hi, Marie. How are you?

1:25:56George Kamel:I'm good. How are you?

1:25:57Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:26:00George Kamel:so um my husband has committed financial infidelity uh three times um and every time that he was caught we had to refinance and all of that um so he runs up debt behind your back and lies to you yep yep 100 and i told him the third time um if he does it again we will divorce i'm not doing this anymore. So he did it again and are you divorcing? I don't know. It just happened like two weeks ago.

1:26:37Dave Ramsey:The third time was two weeks ago?

1:26:40George Kamel:The fourth time was two weeks ago. Oh wow. I found out. He did not come clean. I found it. My friend does financial whatever for a company and she He helped me do a credit check on him and we found it.

1:26:57Dave Ramsey:So, so are you divorcing then?

1:27:01George Kamel:I checked in yesterday online to see how to get divorce papers. Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm still going back and forth. I just, I, yeah, we've been married 41 years together. um my question is i have so i homeschooled our five children we have 11 grandkids um i started a cleaning business um it's just me after our son youngest son graduated so um i've been taking that money and we put it into a savings and we consider it like fun money so we use it for vacation, house projects, whatever. My question is, do I go and get his name off of that account?

1:27:50Dave Ramsey:You need to go see a divorce attorney and let them advise you on what you're allowed to do in the state of Pennsylvania while filing divorce, whether you can take names off of accounts or not. I don't know if you can do that there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, you've got to protect yourself in any way that is legally allowable. and, uh, but you certainly need to take pictures of the account so that you know that that money is there. And if it disappears, then you've at least got something to hold against him, you know, while you go through the divorce. And, uh, you know, for instance, if it, how much is in that account?

1:28:29George Kamel:My account, uh, 7 ,000.

1:28:32Dave Ramsey:Oh, so it's not much. Okay. And he's never touched it thus far.

1:28:37George Kamel:I have, well, we used it. Yeah, we used it for, No, I mean, he's not stolen from it and lied about that account. Not that I know of because, okay, so I'm dyslexic with numbers. He knows that. But he always has paid our bills. He's always found our finances. And I put my guard down last year. I should not have done it. And he went and started using a credit card. And I was just like, son of a gun. I just, you know, can't believe that you did this for the fourth time in our marriage. Um, so I, yeah, I don't know because.

1:29:14Dave Ramsey:Well, the$7 ,000 is probably going to be used as your attorney's fee. Okay. And so do you guys have, do you guys, do you guys have any, do you have any assets? Do you have any money in the marriage?

1:29:26George Kamel:We have nothing. Nope. We have nothing.

1:29:29Dave Ramsey:You own a house?

1:29:30George Kamel:Yeah. We own a house. That's it.

1:29:32Dave Ramsey:What's it worth?

1:29:33George Kamel:Nope. Um, we had, my daughter's. mother-in-law, she's a realtor, and she said she thinks she can get between five and six out a hundred thousand.

1:29:43Dave Ramsey:What do you owe on it?

1:29:44George Kamel:It's an acre lot. Huh?

1:29:46Dave Ramsey:What do you owe on it?

1:29:49George Kamel:Nothing. It was paid off five years ago.

1:29:51Dave Ramsey:Okay. So have you guys attempted marriage counseling?

1:29:58George Kamel:We did when he did this the last time. Um, and it, it got better. The problem was, so we, He said no more credit cards. We had no credit cards. And we took a trip for our 40th anniversary last year to Utah. And they would not let us rent a car unless we had a credit card. No, that's not true. Well, I don't know. He said he tried. They won't take debit cards. They won't take checks. They won't take cash. He said, I have to rent a car. You have to have a credit card. So he tried. I think it's Capital One. and so he did and I should have taken it and I asked him the other day I said I want the credit card he said no and I was like okay well there's that is your name on any of these debts or cards um the ones that were paying 80 ,000 off so we consolidated so they take out 600 every month from our checking account and I guess they barter with the the companies to pay off whatever did you You work with a debt settlement relief company, one of these scummy companies out there?

1:31:10George Kamel:Yeah. That's what she did, yeah. Yes, that's what we're with. Okay. Yeah.

1:31:14Dave Ramsey:So you have$80 ,000 in debt on credit cards, and you have a$500 ,000 paid-for house. And do you make enough to live on?

1:31:23George Kamel:I do not. I only work two days a week. The other three days, I babysit.

1:31:27Dave Ramsey:So how are you going to eat?

1:31:30George Kamel:That's my, yeah. I'm going to have to work full-time. That's the only way.

1:31:34Dave Ramsey:Yeah. How old are you?

1:31:37George Kamel:Me? I'm 60. Okay.

1:31:40Dave Ramsey:Oh, Marie, I'm so sorry. I wish marriage counseling would have fixed this, but it sounds like your husband is just whatever. I don't know what he is. Do you know where he's spending all this money?

1:31:53George Kamel:Is he an addict of some sort? No. So that's what I checked on, and my friend who does finances for Armstrong, she said everything shows it's just gas and food and one was on Lowe's. It's all like petty stuff. It's like, I don't understand. Yeah, I don't know.

1:32:14Dave Ramsey:What does he make?

1:32:15George Kamel:It's frustrating. He only makes, he almost made$60 ,000 last year. He had a job, the same job for 35, 36 years. They closed up. It was a printing company. Of course, you know, computers took over that. so he got a better he got a job and he doesn't have to work swing ship anymore and he doesn't have to work weekends but he took a big pay cut

1:32:45Dave Ramsey:Marie I think you need to get in touch with your pastor get in touch with your marriage counselor and you need to sit down and have an initial discussion with a divorce attorney and you need to look at the reality of what this is facing here I'm sorry you're facing this and I wish your husband wish I could yell at even make him behave, but I can't. And you can't either, obviously. And I can't believe 41 years down the toilet with grandkids everywhere and everything else. That's just, that's just devastating. And, um, but I, but I don't understand a guy who's willing to give up all of that either for just simply for the use of a credit card.

1:33:21Dave Ramsey:It doesn't make any sense at all. And lying to his wife as like a freaking habit. Oh, horrible. Just horrible. I guess it's proof that, uh, integrity matters even after 41 years. Yeah, that's brutal. We see a lot of this with couples

1:33:38George Kamel:that have been married so long, kids are finally out of the house, and then they have to face the spouse and go, oh my gosh, this misbehavior, I've been dealing with it and putting up with it for far too long.

1:34:23Dave Ramsey:Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:35:21Dave Ramsey:Well, we wish we could get to every single call and every single question here on the show. If you have a money question and you want an answer for your situation, head on over to our website and use Ask Ramsey. Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that is built and trained on hours and hours and hours and days and days and days of this show on proven Ramsey principles. So you're going to get an answer, pretty much the same answer you get exactly here on the air, because that's who trained it. Maybe even nicer. It's almost guaranteed to be nicer. Yeah. You'll get the answer the same way we do it right here.

1:35:57Dave Ramsey:Ask Ramsey. You can ask your question today at RamseySolutions.com, completely free. Just click the link in the description if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. Ask Ramsey. George, this little project has exploded. I was meeting with one of our leaders today, and he was telling me the bazillion people, the numbers are crazy, the number of people that are going to ask Ramsey. It's working.

1:36:23George Kamel:It's a good idea, but I didn't know if it'd work. Yeah. Yeah, well, you put a tool out there, and you go, well, people use this instead of trying to search the Internet for a random answer, and it's working.

1:36:32Dave Ramsey:Well, and you don't have to ask your question in front of 32 million people, which you do on the show. That helps, too. Sharon is in Atlanta. Hi, Sharon. How are you?

1:36:40George Kamel:Okay, just fine. Uncle Dave, how are you?

1:36:43Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. How can I help?

1:36:46George Kamel:Okay, this is my question. I have almost$200 ,000 in consumer debt. Good Lord. I know. $252 ,000 on the mortgage. And so my question is should I stop my Roth that I have?

1:37:08Dave Ramsey:Yes. You should stop everything and clean up this mess. What in the world do you owe$200 ,000 on?

1:37:16George Kamel:I owe about$71 ,000 credit cards, $35 ,000 finance companies, and$61 ,000 in taxes and$20 ,000 on a car.

1:37:28Dave Ramsey:Why did you not pay your taxes?

1:37:30George Kamel:Well, I am paying them. No, you didn't pay them.

1:37:34Dave Ramsey:That's why you have$61 ,000 in debt.

1:37:36George Kamel:I'm working on it. Look, I just, look, Uncle Dave, I found you at the end of last year, and I have turned my household upside down. I'm working on it.

1:37:45Dave Ramsey:I'm glad, I'm glad. But, I mean, why did you not pay your taxes?

1:37:49George Kamel:I haven't paid them in full, but I've been paying them on a monthly basis. I know.

1:37:53Dave Ramsey:I'm asking why you didn't pay them originally. I'm serious.

1:37:57George Kamel:Okay, the reason why is because with my husband's job, he's a contractor, and you know if you don't lay that 25 % to the side.

1:38:05Dave Ramsey:Yes.

1:38:07George Kamel:So you've not been doing your quarterly estimates,

1:38:09Dave Ramsey:and you got behind because he's a 1099 guy.

1:38:12George Kamel:We got behind. Okay. But we're cleaning that up.

1:38:13Dave Ramsey:All right, that makes sense. Okay, so what's your household income, Sharon?

1:38:18George Kamel:286 before taxes.

1:38:19Dave Ramsey:Well, that's good news.

1:38:20George Kamel:Woo!

1:38:21Dave Ramsey:So when you decide to turn this house upside down, you can shake this$200K out pretty quick, can't you?

1:38:26George Kamel:And that's what I'm thinking. But, you know, that's what I'm planning on doing. But this is the first question, one of the first questions I have. The taxes come first, correct?

1:38:36Dave Ramsey:Yes, ma 'am.

1:38:37George Kamel:Okay.

1:38:38Dave Ramsey:Because the interest rate is unbelievably, and the penalties are unbelievably high. And, more importantly than that, they have almost unlimited power to screw up your life.

1:38:50George Kamel:Gotcha.

1:38:51Dave Ramsey:They can just show up and take all the money in their checking account. They don't even have to ask a judge. They just do it. Okay.

1:38:58George Kamel:So this$61 ,000, what I'm thinking is that probably in the next one, two, three, four, maybe five to six months, I can have the$61 ,000 paid off.

1:39:08Dave Ramsey:That's good. That's good. You don't have any money in savings that's not retirement?

1:39:12George Kamel:In savings, well, about$3 ,000 or$4 ,000. That's about it.

1:39:17Dave Ramsey:Okay. That needs to be$1 ,000 and we'll throw the rest of it at the taxes. And then let's get the budget done. And you and the husband sit down and look at that budget and go scorched earth, no life. And we're getting these taxes gone. And once the stupid IRS is gone and we file quarterly estimates from this point forward, so we never get back there again.

1:39:38George Kamel:Right. Definitely. Good, good.

1:39:40Dave Ramsey:And then we're going to work the rest of the debts off, smallest to largest, using the debt snowball. And stop all investing. stop all savings and let's focus on this because you make enough money to not be this broke

1:39:52George Kamel:right definitely well you know what i didn't realize i was this broke until i started listening

1:39:56Dave Ramsey:to you that almost sounds like it's my fault if i had listened to you dave i wouldn't be here right

1:40:04George Kamel:oh my goodness you know what i turned this house i turned these bank accounts that we have upside Good, good. Shaking the nickels out of it.

1:40:14Dave Ramsey:Is he on board, too?

1:40:15George Kamel:Oh, yeah. Well, he had no choice because he had been doing the budget for 43 years, and I'm like, okay, we're going to do them together. So it's somewhat my fault. But as of right now. Where did he learn how to budget, Congress?

1:40:28Dave Ramsey:I love it. You guys are great. That's wild. You're going to do good, Sharon. I'm proud of you. You probably have 1820K slipping through your hands every month.

1:40:35George Kamel:Now we just got to get control of that.

1:40:37Dave Ramsey:Yeah, you're going to be able to knock some stuff out fast. Hang on. and we're going to send you a copy of the book, The Total Money Makeover, to make sure you get all your questions answered. It takes you the baby steps on steroids, and as you're working through this, you're going to want to know a few of those odds and ends. And you call me back any time, kiddo. I've got a feeling you're going to do good. She's on fire. Yeah, she's spunky. She's on fire. I like that. Fired up about it. Turn these bank accounts upside down and shake all the nickels out of them.

1:41:00George Kamel:She's flipping the couch cushions up looking for some change.

1:41:02Dave Ramsey:I'm telling you, this is going to happen. Ty is with us in Milwaukee. Hi, Ty. How are you? good how are you doing better than i deserve what's up uh i had so i'm new i haven't new to listening to your show and um by the way it's a it's a great show well welcome good to have

1:41:23George Kamel:you yeah i had a question so my fiancee and i were getting married in october good um we have a we We have a wedding to pay for. And then we also have around, we have some student loan debt as well. We have some money saved up.

1:41:41Dave Ramsey:How much do you have saved up?

1:41:44George Kamel:We have about like$50 ,000 to$60 ,000.

1:41:48Dave Ramsey:Okay. And how much are we spending on the wedding?

1:41:52George Kamel:The wedding is going to be a little pricey. It's going to be around like that$50 ,000 to$60 ,000. It's going to be a big wedding. Both of our dream weddings. We both want all of our family members and friends there.

1:42:05Dave Ramsey:What's your income?

1:42:08George Kamel:My personal income or my fiancé's? Or both, yeah. It's around$180 ,000.

1:42:19Dave Ramsey:Yours is and what's hers?

1:42:20George Kamel:$190 ,000. Mine's kind of...

1:42:25Dave Ramsey:No, that's yours. You make$200 ,000 a year roughly. What does she make?

1:42:29George Kamel:No, I make like$120 ,000 a year.

1:42:33Dave Ramsey:Oh, and she makes$80 ,000.

1:42:35George Kamel:She makes around$80 ,000 to$90 ,000. She just got a raise.

1:42:39Dave Ramsey:Okay. So I think she's more. And you guys, how old are you guys?

1:42:43George Kamel:We are, my fiance is 26, and I'm 25 turning 26.

1:42:49Dave Ramsey:You're right. That is a pricey wedding. It is not in the range of insanity based on the fact that you have such a wonderful household income okay so uh but it's getting close so you need to put together a detailed project management budget for the wedding because otherwise you'll have scope creep and you'll spend 70 grand right so you need to say you need to listen to me you need to lay this out and say this is how much we're going to spend on the dress this is how much we're going to spend on the hors d 'oeuvres and the reception this is how much we're going to spend on the videographer this is how much we're going to spend on the venue and detail it out and then stick to that plan and then put the number at the bottom let's call that number 50 ,000 that's plenty yeah and then manage to that number and then take that 50 ,000 and set it in a separate account right now for the wedding wedding is off the table now box is checked now we start moving with everything between now and the wedding of your income that you can free up to throw towards your debt and she starts throwing any money she has towards her debt until you're married.

1:44:04Okay, so you would pay off the wedding in cash.

1:44:09Dave Ramsey:You have$50 ,000, move the$50 ,000 to the wedding account, that's over, it's done. Now we focus on the debt with all of our income and we don't let the wedding creep above$50 ,000 because we manage a budget. And the two of you sit down and plan it like two grown-ups instead of two people wanting a fairy tale because that's where people end up spending$100 ,000 when they're meant to spend$50 ,000.

1:44:32George Kamel:You got a big wedding. It just gets bigger. Mom and Dad just start throwing people on there.

1:44:35Dave Ramsey:I wouldn't know anything about that.

1:45:19George Kamel:We'll see you next time. Right now, we're hiring for technology, sales, marketing, writing, copy editing, and creative roles. Check out all our job postings at RamseySolutions.com slash careers. That's RamseySolutions.com slash careers.

1:45:53Dave Ramsey:Jay is in San Francisco. Hi, Jay. How are you? Good. I'm well, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. Sure.

1:46:01George Kamel:How can we help? Well, how do my wife and I change our mindset after we've been spending, practicing really the baby steps for so long, and now we're retired, and we've lived frugally, and how do we change the mindset to want to spend some of this money

1:46:21Dave Ramsey:and enjoy the fruits of our labor. Good for you. So what's your nest egg? What's your net worth?

1:46:29George Kamel:Net worth is about 2.5, about half of that in our home and half of it in retirement fund. Way to go.

1:46:37Dave Ramsey:Way to go. And what do you live on a year? What's it take you to live?

1:46:42George Kamel:We have a monthly income with two retirements, two Social Security and an annuity of about$9 ,400. and we usually can live pretty comfortably each month on that. So we don't really touch the retirement fund much at all unless we're going to do a big trip or something.

1:46:59Dave Ramsey:Yeah, well, good for you. Well done. Very well done. How old are you, gosh? We're 66. We've been married 44 years and been practicing the principles since we got married. Way to go. Proud of you. Very good. Thank you. And you started with nothing and you're a multimillionaire. Yes, we are. Praise God for that. Yeah, way to go. Very good. Good work. Baby Steps Millionaires. All right. So, well, a couple of things Sharon and I have learned to do. One is, even though you've been living very responsibly and very adult-like for a long time, one of you is more of a spender than the other one. Yes. Who's that?

1:47:41Dave Ramsey:That would probably be me. Okay. At my house, it's me, too. Sharon's the natural saver. when in doubt she saves when in doubt i have fun and so um yeah so you can lean into that a little bit and say you need to initiate some of the things uh that we're going to enjoy some of this two million dollars we're 66 and uh one of the things we instituted around our house is when we have a fun idea uh we like a trip or something we want to do with some of the money we worked hard for, we say, why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I? I like that.

1:48:18George Kamel:You have to prove to yourself that it's a bad idea.

1:48:20Dave Ramsey:So, you know, friends call up and they've got a house in Telluride and they say, hey, come up and go skiing for three days. And we say, why wouldn't I? Yeah. And we go, you know, and so that kind of stuff. So that's a good thing. We're looking at it. The next thing is that learning to enjoy the money is an underdeveloped or atrophied muscle. And so you've got to work it out. You know, you've got to start working out the spending a little bit. You have to, responsible spending muscle has to be built up. And so when you say, okay, we're going to take this trip, oh, that didn't kill us. We're going to upgrade mama's car.

1:48:59Dave Ramsey:Oh, that didn't kill us. uh we're going to put ten thousand dollars in uh each of the grandkids uh accounts for their college oh that didn't kill us when you do a few things like that you kind of got to go oh i didn't die from that and i'm not i'm not homeless and penniless and i've still got two million dollars after i did all that you know and so you start to you know your brain starts to reset and go i can do a few things and it doesn't kill me right right uh the next thing is is we increased our generosity. Yes. Which removes any guilt from enjoying some of the money. Yes. So if I, if I put a hundred thousand dollars over here and help this situation with this ministry, I can spend 10 or 15 on sharing in me and not think anything about it.

1:49:47Right.

1:49:48Dave Ramsey:And so there's kind of, it's not technically an offset spiritually, morally, mathematically, it's not an offset, but your generosity muscle seems to be attached to your spending and enjoyment muscle.

1:50:00George Kamel:yes i appreciate that we've been fairly generous and uh and i think that that's not as much of an issue as just maybe going over over the top on a over the top type of vacation where we spend you know 30 or 35 000 on a cruise yeah and say you know it's one of those cruises where you don't have to where you have to wear something besides flip-flops board shorts and a tank top to dinner

1:50:24Dave Ramsey:you know what i mean yeah i'm with you yeah yeah and i you know but again 35 000 you know you got a million two sitting there in the 401k it's making 120 000 a year or 150 000 a year in growth if you don't even touch the nest egg and so the third you know the 35 000 is not damaging you you start spending 350 000 on something now we got to stop and think about it yes sir but you're That's not usually what we're talking about in these conversations. So just develop that out and say, okay, why wouldn't I? What happens if this goes wrong? If I just burn this money in the middle of the floor, does my life really change?

1:51:06Dave Ramsey:You can burn$35 ,000 in the middle of your floor. Your life won't change. Yes. And that gives me permission then to enjoy that much because I'm not being irresponsible. responsible if it if my life changes when that amount of money is burnt in the middle of the floor then i'm starting to be irresponsible yep have you and your wife sat down on a nice date

1:51:29George Kamel:and started dreaming about you know here's the annual plan here's the vision for what we want to do this year and just mapped it out uh well we have a map for this year it was uh we got invited by some friends to go on this trip for 2027 and so that's when this all kind of came up and i thought Well, why wouldn't I call and get some, there you go. Now's your chance to ask that question. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And what I do, Jake, cause I'm, I'm real frugal and it's hard to break me from that. What I do is I force myself in the every dollar budget to put a line item that makes me a little bit, throw up a little where I go, Oh gosh, I got to spend that on myself.

1:52:01George Kamel:I'm going to give that much money away. And then you guys keep each other accountable. You guys get to come up with your own. And over time, it'll be a nothing burger. You know, over time, Dave, as you've spent more and more money, you go, oh, that didn't hurt as bad as I thought.

1:52:15Dave Ramsey:Yeah, and I'm just looking, okay, I'm 66. I got maybe, what, 20 years or something? God willing, the creep don't us. How bad can I screw this up? You know, I really can't at this stage. I really can't. You know, I did, like Jay, we did so much that it'd be, you'd have to really concentrate to mess it up in the next 20 years.

1:52:34George Kamel:Well, there's a part where the compound growth and the mass takes over, where you'd have a hard time spending all that before you go.

1:52:39Dave Ramsey:The goose is laying a lot of eggs, and you have to eat a lot of omelets in that 20 years. You know, I mean, that's what it's – you have to really bust some stuff up. That would be the thing. Congratulations, Jay. I'm very proud of you. Tom is in Louisville, Kentucky. Hey, Tom, welcome to the show.

1:52:56George Kamel:Hi, Dave. It's an honor to speak to you. Thanks so much for taking my call.

1:52:59Dave Ramsey:Sure. How can I help?

1:53:01George Kamel:Yeah, so my wife and I need help with a real estate decision. We've made some mistakes in the past when it comes to real estate and hoping not to make a mistake this time around. So I'm active duty military. We currently live in Kentucky. I actually have an upcoming PCS. We're going to be moving to New York this summer, and this will likely be my last move before retirement. So we're only going to be in New York for about five to six years at the most. So my main question is we have a rental in San Antonio. We owe about$120. It's worth about$270. We're trying to decide whether we should just continue to rent that house or sell it and use it as a down payment to buy a house in New York.

1:53:43George Kamel:But my concern with that is the fact that we're only going to be there for such a short amount of time. I'm not sure, you know, with the current market and the uncertainty, if that's a good decision or not.

1:53:56Dave Ramsey:Well, first we decide if we're going to buy in New York. If we're going to buy in New York, then yes, I would liquidate the San Antonio and put it as a down payment. And if you're selling and sell the house in Kentucky, if you own one there and put it as a down payment, if you're going to buy. Now, if you're going to buy is answered by this. The community that you're moving into in New York, is it a military-only community, or is it a community that has some military in it?

1:54:26George Kamel:Yeah, so it's actually going to be West Point, New York. So we have the option of living off post and just taking that BAH, that monthly housing allowance, and applying it towards a mortgage, or we could live on post, in which case we would not receive that amount of money. It would essentially be like renting while we're there.

1:54:44Dave Ramsey:Right. Okay. So if you're off post, are those homes only, is most of the people living in those areas military? Because that's a small community, isn't it?

1:54:55George Kamel:Yeah, it's a pretty small community, kind of smaller towns and villages surrounding West Point.

1:54:59Dave Ramsey:Yeah. I'm thinking if you get ready to resell, you probably have a lot of competition because of the other people that they're moving out that are military. So you may not get great appreciation. Study the appreciation and study the speed of sale. If the appreciation is good and the speed of sale is good, then go ahead and buy. But because there's a lot of competition, if it's slow to sell and slow to appreciate, then I would not buy.

1:55:33you

1:55:38George Kamel:Hey guys, I've got big news. The Ramsey Show is going on tour and this is your chance to be more than just a listener. You get to be part of the show. So hear questions asked live and experience the kind of momentum that only comes from being in the room. We'll be in Charlotte, Denver, Phoenix, and Anaheim with a limited number of seats in each city. So last fall, we completely sold out in 72 hours. So do not wait. Get your tickets at ramsaysolutions.com slash events or by clicking the link in the show notes.

1:56:24Dave Ramsey:Our scripture of the day, Psalm 8411. For the Lord God is a sun and shield. The Lord bestows favor and honor. No good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless. Al Bernstein said success is often the result of taking a misstep in the right direction. June is in Grand Rapids. Hey, June, how are you? Good.

1:56:48George Kamel:How are you all?

1:56:49Dave Ramsey:Better than we deserve. What's up?

1:56:52George Kamel:I am just calling. My husband and I bought a business this year. in January. And I am just wondering if it is time for me to quit my corporate job and strictly just work for the business only that we purchased.

1:57:08Dave Ramsey:What's the business? What's the profit on the business?

1:57:12George Kamel:It's going to be four to$500 ,000 a year. This year?

1:57:17Dave Ramsey:Is it tracking that already?

1:57:19George Kamel:So we have profited$80 ,000 already for January and February together. and we have paid$40 ,000 on the note so far. So we're trying to pay it off. We have a note through the owner. How much is your note to the owner? It is$780 ,000.

1:57:42Dave Ramsey:Okay, and what do you make in corporate America?

1:57:47George Kamel:$75 ,000.

1:57:49Dave Ramsey:Okay. If you quit and go to work at the business, does that lower payroll at the business?

1:58:00George Kamel:So I'd be making$45 ,000 because I'm currently making$45 ,000 at the business now. So I am working for both corporate worlds.

1:58:10Dave Ramsey:What are you doing in the business?

1:58:12George Kamel:I'm doing AP and AR. Okay.

1:58:16Dave Ramsey:All right. And have you got other people doing that as well? Nope.

1:58:22George Kamel:It would just be me and my husband doing it together. So he currently works for the business, and we have Powney and me, and it would be six employees.

1:58:32Dave Ramsey:Okay, but my point is you're not saving the business any money by going to work there, and you're not making the business any money by going to work there. Correct, yep. So it's a net loss of$75 ,000 to your household?

1:58:48George Kamel:Yes, yep. Why is it you're itching to do that? Um, well, we got married in 2013, bought a house, paid that off in three and a half years, sold it after eight, bought a new house, paid that off in three years. So we're completely debt free except for the business loan.

1:59:07Dave Ramsey:Right.

1:59:08George Kamel:So, um, we have a five and eight year old. So corporate business is just getting really, really stressful. I'm working 12, 13 hour days, not eating lunch, not taking breaks. So are you wanting to work part time in the business and stay home with the kids, essentially? Yes. And that's worth the$75 ,000 reduction in household income for you to have that? I would be making$45 ,000.

1:59:36Dave Ramsey:You're making$45 ,000 now.

1:59:38George Kamel:So I'm making$75 ,000 corporate. But you're making$45 ,000 out of the business now. Yeah.

1:59:44Dave Ramsey:Yeah, so the net loss is$75 ,000. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, well, I mean, you're going to be making the same money at the business and your husband's, and the profit is all your, both of yours, and you're plowing most of the profit into debt reduction so you can clear this debt in two or three years, right? Yep. That's your idea. And, um. Yep.

2:00:08George Kamel:We have$15 ,000 in a money market account and we have$45 ,000 in our savings.

2:00:13Dave Ramsey:Good, good. Okay.

2:00:15George Kamel:And$250 ,000 in retirement.

2:00:17Dave Ramsey:Okay. Yeah, I wouldn't put anything else in retirement until you got this debt cleared, but it's a baby step six debt. And, you know, so you're in the right place. I, you know, as long as you guys are able to keep your lifestyle really, really low and reduce that 700 ,000 very, very quickly. I don't quite think you can do it in two years, but I think you could do it in three. That's like 260 a year toward the debt. A little over 20 grand a month would clear this.

2:00:47George Kamel:yeah that was our plan is try and pay it off in three years yeah i like that household monthly expenses about 3200 a month yeah and it changes the equation

2:01:01knock a year off if you kept working yeah you could do it in two years if you kept working and so your trade-off is one year of you're going to be in debt one year longer because you come home

2:01:16Dave Ramsey:okay that's your that's the bat that you put that in one hand and put home in the other hand and there you go that's your balancing act right that's the the scales of justice so to speak right what tips what tips the scales here i think i'm coming home because i think you're burnt out on

2:01:31George Kamel:the corporate crap i am yeah and i think you've got the margin in the is this business really really stable very predictable environment yes yeah my husband's working there for 15 years and the gentleman who sold it or was selling it to us is giving us a heck of a deal on it for as much profit as it brings in every year, I believe.

2:01:54Dave Ramsey:But the field that the, I mean, I didn't ask what the business does, but whatever the business does is a predictable environment for the coming three years.

2:02:05George Kamel:Yep, it's an electric motor shop. So do operations for factory motors that go down, you know, refrigeration motors that go down,

2:02:13Dave Ramsey:air you know ac units i go down yep yeah okay all right very cool yep i would quit okay that was easy well it wasn't easy but thanks for talking it through with us that's interesting listening to all the different variables that go into that decision and to try to say okay what would i do and you know that that's that's where we are to you know the quality of life when you've got that kind of income coming in, the quality of life starts to be a big decision. And her being able to not work 12 hours a day and not put up with the, I mean, they're using her up for 75 grand. I mean, that's just crazy.

2:02:53Dave Ramsey:Well, and it's a small portion of their now household income. So it's an easier decision. Chase is in Kansas City. Hi, Chase. How are you?

2:03:01George Kamel:I'm doing great. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up? First off, I'm 20 years old. I only make about like 600 a week. I've got about 800 to my name. I don't have a whole lot going on right now. But my dad killed himself when I was 16, and I was kind of battling my stepmom to get his pickup truck that he had because it was about the only thing he had to his name. I didn't get any inheritance or nothing from him, but now I've got this pickup that I put a couple grand into to get running, and Kelly Blue Book says it's worth about 30 grand, and I don't know if I should get rid of it or keep it.

2:03:34George Kamel:You should keep it. Yank?

2:03:37Dave Ramsey:Yep. No questions asked? Nope. You seem very confident. Yep. And it's just simply this. There's only one of those. And this is a monumental event in the landscape of your life. You were 16 years old and your father committed suicide. That's a defining episode. and you can use it to define it for good and say i'm going to address whatever he didn't address in my life so that i go on and and i'm victorious moving forward and i'm going to go be somebody uh but if you there's only one of these trucks this and so um you don't have 30 000 in it you don't have 30 000 dead on it right yeah no i mean i'm down about two grand on it but yeah like i said i only have about 800 to my name right now but that's that's a different set of issues okay selling the truck does not fix your career problems that's yeah you need to go get a career get some work start working like a crazy man working 40 80 hours a week and start getting some money coming in so you don't have to ask the question about selling this truck but this truck is an emotional item and if you're the 30 year old version of you is going to look back at the 20-year-old Chase and go, I wish you hadn't sold that truck.

2:05:03Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I think you're right. That's why I decided that so quickly. But having said that, you also have got to get these other parts of your life together really quick. And so, I mean, like by the end of the week, I want you to have six jobs. I want you working like a crazy man where all you do is work and stack cash. And then when you get a little bit of wiggle room, you can start to pick a better job and pick a career field once you get up off of survival. You're not even surviving hardly right now.

2:05:33George Kamel:What are you doing for work? I work at a building material delivery company. I make about 20 an hour. I'm living on my own. You hang on. I'm going to send you Ken Coleman's Get Clear Assessment and his book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do. I think you just need some soul searching right now and get that purpose.

2:05:49Dave Ramsey:Chase, if you're not going to go work 60 to 80 hours a week and work six jobs, starting right now, you do need to sell the truck. But I would rather see you as your older brother, say, keep the truck, because when you're 30, I think you'll be glad you have it. That puts us out of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.