Don’t Quit When the Journey Gets Hard

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22:18Dave Ramsey:I promise you it's worth your time. Ethan is with us in Florida. Hi, Ethan. How are you? Hey, David and Dr. John Deloney. I'm awesome. I'm just happy to talk to you guys. I'm sorry. I'm nervous. No problems. No, you're good. How can we help, sir? Okay, so I'm a young veteran, and I joined the military right out of high school. I did my four years, got my degree. And two years ago, at the age of 22, I moved my wife and kid to Florida to start a military-sponsored internship program at one of their approved companies. At the end of that internship, the owner of the company promised me a$180 ,000 salary if I bought his house.

22:58That promise was put into an offer letter and an employment contract. And that offer letter solely qualified me for a no-money-down VA jumbo loan. So I proceeded to buy his house for$830 ,000 with an$845 ,000 mortgage at a 6.75 % interest rate and a nearly$7 ,000 a month payment. Immediately after I closed, he cut my pay, making that offer letter fraudulent. And over the course of the past two years, my pay has progressively been cut as he ran the company into the ground. And as of two weeks ago, I'm completely unemployed. I'm owed over$150 ,000 in wages. I've since vacated the house. I got a rental house for my wife and kids.

23:41I start a new job tomorrow, but I'm being forced into a short sale and will be about$200 ,000 underwater. So my question is, what would you do if you were me? And what are my options to minimize the damage to my credit and my future home buying privileges?

24:01Dave Ramsey:so at what point in this process and how many times in this process did your heart try to tell your head how stupid this was um i i can tell you a long story of how i was you know convinced it was very legit company i mean i interviewed i mean you never stopped and looked at this and said this is a bad idea oh no i mean the company had like no i mean you i'm not talking about the company the company doesn't matter the whole story you told me if the company is completely yeah on the up and up if they're really financially strong and if they followed through on everything they said this is still unbelievably stupid yeah i agree now looking back i mean at the time i was 22 years old and the guy seemed like he was made of money i thought i was doing him a favor uh because he found out he's having twins and he said his wife wanted a bigger house.

25:00But, yeah, I agree. Looking back now, I was completely scammed. I never should have got in this situation. You ever heard the phrase, if something sounds too good to be true, it is?

25:09Dave Ramsey:Yeah, this is it. Yeah, this is it. You're like the walking definition. Yeah, I know. Oh, my gosh, honey, I'm so sorry. Yeah. What hell you have been through. Thank you for your service to the country and you deserve to be treated better. I'm so sorry. yeah he's a veteran too so he he's taking advantage of veterans and yeah that's not unusual as you know um yeah there's veterans outside the gate of every single base for the next two miles just as soon as you leave the gate on each side of the road for the next two miles is stupid like every stupid human trick is right outside the gate of every military base and most of them are run by veterans screwing over current active duty people.

25:50Dave Ramsey:So it's not unusual at all. I wish I could say it was different, but we know too much about your world. All right. So why did you move out?

26:02Because the mortgage is going to go overdue starting October 1st. Yeah. So. And I know my credit is going to get ruined. Yeah. So why did you move out? So I could start the short sale process or whatever as soon as possible.

26:16Dave Ramsey:You can start a short sale process while you're living in it. Yeah, that's true. I don't know. I just wanted to get it over with and just move on with my life as soon as possible, I guess. Okay. That's interesting. All right. So a short sale is where the house brings less than the mortgage. And if it is a short sale, remember this phrase because you're going to have trouble getting it with your Veterans Administration. And it's the only way you want to do it. don't do it if you don't get this phrase, and I doubt you're going to get it, but you need to get this phrase, without recourse. Okay. So a short sale is the lender looks at the situation and says, my borrower is a 22-year-old that doesn't make enough money to pay this bill, and it'll never happen in this century that we're going to get our money.

27:06Dave Ramsey:The only money we're going to get is out of this house, and so we're going to accept a$600 ,000,$800 ,000 offer,$700 ,000 offer on this house, and whatever of the mortgage doesn't get paid, we are going to forgive it without resource. That's without recourse. That's a short sale. The Veterans Administration seldom does a short sale without recourse. But if they have recourse, they're going to sue you for the difference, and it's no better than a foreclosure. Who will sue me for the difference? The VA. The veterans, yeah, the VA. And believe me, they will sue you. Because what the realtors have told me is that the VA, they just eat the difference.

27:45on the short sale. If you do it without recourse, they eat the difference.

27:49Dave Ramsey:But let me tell you, I've got to tell you, nine out of ten times they don't. Now, the FHA will eat the difference. If you talk Fannie Mae, a conventional loan, into doing a loan, doing a short sale, it's typically without recourse. But the VA, oddly enough, ironically enough, which is designed to help veterans, is going to screw you. They're going to hammer you. So I'm afraid for you right now. But it's the only route you've got. So take the realtor at their word, but do not sign this unless it says without recourse. I do not want them chasing you for the difference. If they're going to chase you for the difference, make them foreclose.

28:28Dave Ramsey:Okay. Do not do a deal with them and then they'll screw you. You've been screwed enough by people you've done deals with. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so whatever the buyer offers, the VA takes that amount and forgives the rest, say it with me, without recourse. You got that phrase? Yeah, without recourse. Yeah. I do not want them coming after you for the difference, and the paperwork needs to say that, and you need to freaking read the paperwork. Yeah. Because the VA is supposed to be there for veterans, and quite honestly, they're not. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, they would have never made this loan.

29:09Yeah, I mean, I reached out to them. They did an audit into the origination of the loan, and they said it's legit that the company who's named after the owner has the same last name that I bought his house with an offer letter that he signed to work at his company. That didn't raise any red flags, apparently.

29:26Dave Ramsey:Yeah, but the point is, if you have a 22-year-old who's never made any money in his life and he suddenly is offered$180 ,000 for a job that is not worth$180 ,000, somebody ought to look at this and go, it violates common sense. Because, son, you were not going to get a$180 ,000 job anywhere else, were you? No, that's why I took it. No, that's why we knew it was a scam. Yeah, yeah. And you shouldn't have taken it. and i would recommend a 22 year old buying his first house not buying an 860 000 home based on a bogus salary amount that you can't get anywhere else in the marketplace yeah the whole thing was a scam from day one it was never going to happen from day one yeah i could elaborate to dr john about how this guy is like the textbook definition of a narcissist sure you know he had a whole company of a bunch of people convinced until now sure that everything was is he Not even legit, it was all lying.

30:24Dave Ramsey:You know, Ethan, what I want to do, though, if I'm in your shoes, is not define him. I want to ask myself, what was I being that allowed me to step into the bear trap? Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, this guy's a scumball, okay? But you obviously walked right past several warning flags, and you need to learn from those so you never walk past them again. Because I did the same thing when I was your age, and I went broke. and that's what I'm trying to keep you from doing. I don't want you to get there. So if you're going to do something stupid, at least learn from it. And this whole thing was stupid. The whole thing is a nightmarish mess.

31:03Dave Ramsey:I'm so sorry, honey. Yeah, without recourse, that's your phrase for the day, my man.

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32:55Dave Ramsey:Are you ready? Are you staying on track with the baby steps? You can take a quick quiz to check your progress and receive a personalized plan just for you. Simply head to the show notes, click on the link titled, Are You on Track with the Baby Steps? And take the quick free quiz. We'll send you a personalized plan. Kirk is in Colorado. Hey, Kirk, what's up? Hey, so I got a real estate question for you. Okay. We have a property that, well, there's an open property next to us that came up for sale. And I'm trying to figure out if it's a good idea, maybe a good investment to buy it. You have the cash?

33:34We do. Okay.

33:36Dave Ramsey:How much is it? So they're asking$40 ,000. For what? What is it? So it's an empty lot. it's 1.3 acres we live in a rural area so everyone's got about 1.2 acres that everyone lives on we enjoy having open lots on either side of us so buying this would a prevent someone from moving in and building next to us and b i had the idea of incorporating it into my lot so at that point, if we ever sell in like 10 years and move, we would be selling 2.5 acres versus 1.2 acres. Okay. All right. And you're out of debt except your home? No, we are 100 % out of debt. We own our home. Okay. And you have the cash.

34:28Dave Ramsey:All right. I would buy it. I have done that quite often. I bought 22 acres next door to this building that I'm sitting in, commercial property. I bought vacant lots adjacent to every property or several properties that I own when they come available for buffers, as you said, privacy, the enjoyment of a little extra space, and sometimes just to keep contiguous things going. What I would not do is combine the properties. You can combine them when you sell them simply by selling them both. Okay. Okay. Would it be cheaper as property taxes won versus having two different lots? Might be a tiny bit, but$40 ,000 worth of property taxes is not much in South Dakota.

35:17Dave Ramsey:We're talking about a biscuit. Colorado. So I built this big, huge house on a hill back in the early 2000s, and I sold it in 21. I had purchased two five-acre tracks that were contiguous to it that were big lots in the area. And I had a little green space around it, too. So I was basically sitting on about 20 acres. All right? Nice. But I did not combine the lots. When I sold it, the buyer of the big house didn't want the other lots, didn't want to spend that much. And so what ended up happening was I sold the house itself at a premium, and then I ended up selling both the lots at a premium. They built next door to him, and it's his choice because he didn't want them.

36:06Dave Ramsey:But I ended up with more money that way. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. But if he wanted them all, I offered him everything in one package, and he didn't want it, right? The buyer. Which is fine. It's okay. It's his place. He didn't have to do it. He was not as concerned about buffer as I was, right? So I liked having 20 acres around me a lot. Yeah. And I kind of miss that. But, yeah, that's where we are. So, yeah, but keep it separate. But, yes, I would buy it. And I don't know that the investment will work out to be a big deal for you. If the 40 turns into 80 over a decade, you did good. I'd be shocked if it did that.

36:45Dave Ramsey:But more than anything, it's peace of mind and control of the environment around you. And you deserve that. You've done a good enough job with your money to buy that. I bought that yesterday. Yeah, no question about that. Yeah. and God bless any place in the country where you can get an acre and 1.2 for $40 ,000. I would buy that on principle. I think. Yeah. There's people. Yeah. Geez. Wow. Scott's with us in Ohio. Hey Scott, how are you? Doing good. How about yourself? Better than I deserve. What's up? So I am working through a little bit of a financial situation where I'm trying to understand if I should continue to be laser focused on my debt payoff or start planning for my future at 42 years old.

37:32So I am a single income earner household with no kids. I make about$150 ,000 a year. And at the end of last year, I started to realize that just my numbers weren't adding up for my income. I was constantly behind the ball trying to move money around to pay all my bills and just came to the realization that I was both stubborn and financially illiterate. Dude. Wow, that's brutal. Welcome to the meeting. I'm John and this is Dave. We've been there too, brother. Yeah, so I built a really strict budget. Since January 1st, I've paid off $37 ,000 in debt. Wow. I'm down to one credit card, which was, I had $27 ,000 in credit cards in January.

38:20I'm down to about$9 ,200 on a credit card. Very cool. This is now at 0 % interest and paying about$1 ,200 a month on it.

38:27Dave Ramsey:Okay. Then I have a home loan for my roof, a car, student loans, and finally my mortgage. Not counting the mortgage, what's the rest of it? Let's see here, about$53 ,000. And you've already paid off$37 ,000 since January. Yeah, so I should have that paid off in about 16 months, and then I'm left with about$196 ,000 for the mortgage. Amazing. Well done, sir. Outstanding, dude. Thank you. And then I have about$71 ,000 in my 401k, nothing in Roth, nothing in HSA yet. And you're not adding anything to the 401k currently? No, I am because of where I work. I get 6 % from that. Oh, you didn't understand the program.

39:12Dave Ramsey:The program is you stop the 401k. Okay. Oh, now we're going to get out of debt in 12 months. This is so cool. I have about$12 ,000 in reserves. I have a century home. Oh, wait a minute. Now we're going to pay down that credit card today. Today. You're going to be gone today. Look at this. Now we're out of debt in 10 months. This is so cool. Okay, look, listen. You've created a either save myself now and not help myself later or help myself later and take longer on this. And what I want to tell you is every dollar you pay off right now is helping future you. Yes. Your shortest distance between where you are and financial security and wealth is not screwing around with your match, and it's not hoarding that$12 ,000.

39:59Dave Ramsey:It's leaning in with everything the way we taught you, and you're not doing it, but you need to go do it. The shortest distance between where you are right now, and that is 100 % debt freedom. Because when you don't have a stinking payment in the world, you rebuild that emergency fund very quickly. then you start putting 15 % of your income away, and you're young, and you make$150 ,000. Later, you're going to make$250 ,000 10 years from now, and you're still putting 15 % away. You're going to have$10 million if you do what I tell you to do instead of doing it your way. Well, that's what my goal was, this$6 to$10 million for being realistic in today's climate with inflation and everything.

40:34I feel anybody in their 40s is going to need$5 to$10 million to have a comfortable life.

40:39Dave Ramsey:Yeah,$60 is even better, but, you know, it's okay. You know, you're going to be okay. You'll be okay with a million, but you'd be better off with six, and you'd be better off with 60. But the point is, quit trying to screw around with this system that works, dude. You really have made good progress remarkably without doing what we taught you to do. Here's the deal. You're running a marathon, and you're at mile 14. You just passed the halfway mark. I mean, not dollar-wise, but you're running, and you're kind of getting tired of running. and when you get tired of running you start giving yourself reasons why you can go ahead and just quit you've already done the training you've proven it to yourself what if we just went got a burger hear me and dave say finish this race man okay you're tired you don't like sending 1200 bucks every penny away we get it you're dude you are cooking on this thing what do you owe on the car um 16 000 okay not much all right good and then my house is worth about I think it was$345 ,000.

41:39Oh, good, and that's going to be paid off in like seven years, the way you're going.

41:42Dave Ramsey:So you're doing so good. Yeah. Seriously, if you will take 10 months of doing it my way and have almost nothing in savings, down to$1 ,000, baby step one, and stop your 401k for a lousy 10 months, the ground you'll make up as a result of that, because of this increased focused intensity, is going to get you out of debt so fast, mathematically and psychologically and spiritually, because the feedback loops are going to kick in and you're going to go, I love this. I'm paying off more and more and more, more and more. And you're going to get out. That's what happens in the brain. And so that's kind of how it sounds.

42:18My brain isn't quite so old witchcrafty, but I get it. That's like a wizard or whatever. You're the bad guy on Inspector Gadget.

42:27Dave Ramsey:Evil laugh, right? Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it's like, there we go. You can do this, man, but quit screwing around with it. Get it done.

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44:14Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studios. Dr. John Deloney, number one best-selling author, host of the Dr. John Deloney Show, massive hit on Ramsey Network. He's my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Lynn is in New York. Hi, Lynn. How are you? Good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I wanted to see if I should take out a$10 ,000 loan to help my mom fix her kitchen. There's some emotional reasons why I would and why I wouldn't. And ultimately, I'm trying to see if the financials make sense to help me make the decision. So you don't have$10 ,000 to give your mom?

44:58I don't, no.

44:59Dave Ramsey:Okay. And your mom's broke? She, yeah, she has a pension. She has Social Security. She's retired. So she's on a fixed income. How old is your mom? She's almost 80. And how's her health? She's actually quite spry for her age. Good. Okay. And what's wrong with her kitchen? She tends to hire, do a lot of DIY and like hire handymen who aren't quite handy. And so over the last few years. to renovate the home in general. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, she's half funded projects over the years and it's left the kitchen, you know, with only a subfloor, no cabinets, no countertops. It's just kind of in a state of disrepair.

45:52And she is older, even though her health is pretty great. I worry about, you know, her age and food safety, physical safety in that space.

46:05Dave Ramsey:Wow. Really bad decisions. Yeah.

46:14Dave Ramsey:Okay. Man, I just appreciate how much you love your mom. That's sweet of you. And that you want to take care of her and you don't want to live in a house that probably wouldn't pass codes right now. So that's nice of you. You do know you called the show where we'd never tell anybody to borrow money, right? You know you called that show. I did, and I'm trying to – the other part is I've worked really hard over the last few years. To get out of debt. And I'm not going to tell you to spend$10 ,000 on an 80-year-old's kitchen. The math doesn't work. I mean, if you had a million dollars laying in your account and you wanted to spend$10 ,000 on an 80-year-old's kitchen, that's fine, but I wouldn't do that.

46:58Dave Ramsey:and I certainly wouldn't borrow the money to do it under any circumstances, but I do applaud your heart. Now, let's try to fix the problem, though, a different way. So is your mom in a good church?

47:17I would say she does go to a church, but the church is the place where she has been recommended these people who have like fixed her home. Good, that's even better. That's even better.

47:29Dave Ramsey:So here's what I want you to do. I want you to take some pictures of the mess that is her kitchen. And I want you to go have a lunch meeting with her pastor. And say, some of the jack legs that go to your church have done this. And so I'm going to ask, since we have an elderly widow over here, that you organize a work group of some young men who actually know how to swing a hammer and come over and put her some cabinets in and put a floor down. I want you to take care of an elderly widow because she's an elderly widow and she's a member of your church. And I really want you to do it because some of the jack legs that go to your church are the ones that cause the problem in the first place.

48:10Dave Ramsey:And I got a feeling you can shame this pastor into getting some work done. Okay. Nothing feels better than shaming a pastor. I'm messing with you. I'm being harsh, but you see what I'm saying. But can I tell you, this is some of the best advice I've heard you give, Dave. I love this idea because you know why? It is. It's the bluff call. Are y 'all going to be who you're supposed to be? You're going to take care of widows and orphans. Here you go. You got quiet on us, Lynn. Why don't you like that plan? I mean, the handbook says that's real religion. Widows and orphans. Yeah. That's what the handbook says.

48:47My mom, she doesn't like accepting help. She's not always the most.

48:51Dave Ramsey:But she was going to take a$10 ,000 loan from you to do a kitchen. That's called help. She didn't ask me necessarily for the loan directly. I know, but you had a plan where she was going to do that, so let's have a plan where her church supports her because her church's jack legs are the ones that messed this up. And by the way, this is going to be good practice because over the next 10 years, she's going to need more and more support and care from you and others. And others. And you're going to have to get out of the habit of debt fixes anything. because it makes it worse. Yeah. Because I don't want to give you a negative scenario, but I really don't want you paying a loan off after your mom passes away and you're paying payments on a kitchen that she no longer uses.

49:36Dave Ramsey:That would be really, really negative. Can you imagine writing that check every month? Yeah, and it wouldn't be an investment in that sense that I would get back. Nope, nope, nope, it wouldn't. So it's not, yeah. No, it's not. It's just consumption. And it's just you. It's just your sweetheart wanting to help your sweet mom. And I think both of you are sweet ladies and I don't want her to get messed over anymore. And I don't want you to mess yourself over trying to be sweet. And so let's not do this. Let's not step up in this trap. I'm real serious. If it was you, if I was you, I'd go have a and I've got the money to write the check.

50:13Dave Ramsey:But in this case, I think this church has an opportunity to serve. And that's the other side of it is they have an opportunity to live out a mission with the congregants of that place. This is one of those rare win, win, win, win, wins where everybody wins. And an elderly widow gets her kitchen put back together, and the church gets an opportunity to go help somebody out. That's awesome. And I don't know how we got here, but seriously, if a recommendation came from inside of her congregation and they left an elderly widow in this situation, the pastor really has an opportunity to work with that person on their character.

50:51Dave Ramsey:Right. Absolutely. Because you just don't want to be on this list. You don't want to be on the list of people messing with kids, widows, and orphans. There's several things in the Scriptures that you don't want to be on that list. You want to be on the list of the people that help those people. That's the list you want to be on. It's the naughty list and the good list. I mean, this is it. Not Santa Claus, but it's God. And so, you know, it's serious stuff.

51:20You know what? That's a great idea. I hope that happens more and more.

51:25Dave Ramsey:Well, you have so many opportunities to do things that way. And honestly, I work with so many churches. I mean, we had 50 ,000 churches have taught 10 million financial peace congregants over the last 25 years. And I know a bazillion churches that have the funds and have the systems to take care of the single mom, the widow, the orphan. And they don't always know a way to connect to one. And so just giving them the opportunity, letting them, hey, here's one. And they go, thank you. And they're ready to go do it. It's pretty incredible that they're just standing there ready to go. They're willing, ready, and able.

52:06Dave Ramsey:They just don't have the connection. And because no one wants to raise their hand and say, help me. And I know a number of young men who are asking, hey, there's no places to serve. Like, I can go to a local soup kitchen or something, but I've got to get in line. Man, if you could go to church. If there's a 25-year-old Bible study group of men at that church. Show up on a weekend. And this was their weekend project. They could put that whole kitchen back together. It would be amazing. Yeah. And then they'd all walk a little bit taller, too. If everybody wins, boys and girls. This is how this works.

52:33Dave Ramsey:I like it.

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54:15Dave Ramsey:Today's question of the day is brought to you by YREFI. If your private student loans are in default, it can feel like nobody will work with you. But YREFI was built just for this. They'll help you explore a fresh start. Go to YREFI.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey. Not in all states. Today's question comes from Ava in Ohio. Ava writes, my significant other and I have been together for 15 years and we have two kids together. We're both 30 years old. He's currently scraping by being self-employed, making roughly$65 ,000 annually, but pays taxes of about$6 ,000. and his reimbursed expenses are included in that 65K, making his true income about$26 ,000 a year.

55:02We do not have joint finances. I pay for everything for us from the house, utilities, groceries, and even his health insurance. I make$163 ,000 annually. He does have some great skills to get a decent job, but chooses not to. How do I motivate him to get a better job and ask him to start paying for part of our family expenses.

55:25Dave Ramsey:I don't think you can. Nope. In 15 years, you hadn't motivated him to get married. I don't know how you're going to motivate him to get a job. And by the way, 30 years old, we've been together 15 years. This started when you were 15? It's high school, man. Yeah. It's Dawson's Creek. I don't want to wait. This is good, man. I like teenage romances. but he's got a pretty good setup here. His wife is rich. He can kind of do what he wants. You have three kids. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Just one of them is humongous and old. I think the path here is to sit down and be honest about you spend half your life together and to sit down and say, we've been co-managing our lives.

56:14We've been running a parallel and I want to make, I want to start making a marriage. I want to make a life together. Not where I have my money. You've got your money. I pay all the bills. You just kind of do what you want when you want to do it. But what do we want our life to look like? How do we want to feel when we come home every day? What dreams do we have? And here's what it's going to take for all of us to get where we want to go. And he's probably going to say, I'm good. and then pop the top on a cold Budweiser and go on about his day. But that's where that conversation starts.

56:52Dave Ramsey:And David— But I also— Okay. This is how—the problem is not just that we're here. It's how we got here. Okay? there was never any request for this man to grow up this is an adolescent exactly and so he didn't have to um get married to have kids and to start a life with this woman he can just run he doesn't have to develop a career he can go over here and do something i'm gonna follow my passion oh brother you're killing me here and um you know we're broke but i'm real passionate about it you know the um No, it doesn't work. So the problem is you've got to undo at least 10 years worth of mixed messages that you've been sending with your behaviors, with what you've allowed.

57:48Dave Ramsey:And this is not about. You get what you tolerate. Exactly. But this is not about we can't make ends meet. This is about we've got money. She makes 163K and he makes 26. So they make it 100. They make 200 grand a year. Right. They're fine. The deal is I don't respect this guy that I've been with for half my life. Yeah. And you got to have that conversation. Are we going to do life together or not? And here's what that looks like. And let me ask you this. It occurs to me, I'm stepping over into your field of expertise, your world. But it feels like to me, not only does she not respect him, she knows she allowed all this.

58:26Dave Ramsey:And so she's starting to be mad at herself. Almost all of this starts with I'm angry at myself. And I'm going to put it out into the world. Yeah. And so, yeah, if she wants to sit, and that's why it's so important when you sit down and have these conversations to use I statements, I've allowed this. I have gone out and created a world where we're not married. We're not married. We have two kids. You don't have to do anything. You don't work much. So I'm saying I want to be connected and build something together. And that's where this is a scary thing. You kind of got to do one or the other in this situation.

58:57Ava has to have an or what statement. Here's what I want to have in my life, or I'm going to go ahead and solidify the separateness that is our world already, or I'm not leaving this guy. He's a part of my life. I'm going to make peace with it, and I'm going to go on about my life. Most people get stuck in between the or. I don't want to make a declarative or what statement, but I just want to complain about it and be frustrated about it all the time. So either make peace with it. You make a great salary. We're moving on. You got a third kid. Maybe he's fun and whatever. Or I'm going to draw a line in the sand and say, as for me and my house, I want more than this.

59:34I deserve more than this. I want to build something together. I don't want to be a single mom anymore. That's right. You've got to grow up. I need a man in my house, not a third kid. And more importantly, here's what that looks like. Here's the path for that.

59:51Dave Ramsey:so tactical steps if you're in that situation i'm gonna say if you want to go forward it's going to look like this you're going to get a career development plan and execute on it we're going to get married and in order to work our way through all that we're going to sit down and see a counselor absolutely and and if you don't want to do those three things you are electing for us not to be together anymore because i don't want to be a single mom and pretend like I'm not anymore. Since behavior is a language, you're telling me very clearly, I don't want to be a part of your life. Yeah. Yeah. And here's the problem, okay?

1:00:27Dave Ramsey:The data now tells us, and John and I have talked about this. We talked about it on our tour quite a bit. It came up a lot. There's tons of actual research, multiple different research projects that are airtight research, looking at actual labor department data, census bureau data, that says a single man 35 years old, it has one-seventh of the net worth of a married man that's 35 years old. A single woman that's 35 years old has one-tenth of the net worth of a married woman that is 35 years old. Married men live seven to ten years longer and have a 20 % higher probability of surviving cancer than single men.

1:01:21Wow.

1:01:23Dave Ramsey:So your net worth and your incomes, all the data tells us your net worth, your incomes, your health, your relational satisfaction is in multiples of 10 greater for married couples than couples that shack up. And yet more than half the couples listening to this right now are shacked up instead of married. And you think you haven't done any damage. But you have. You've lost what we call, what the data calls a marriage advantage versus the shack up advantage. There is no data, zero data that says you outperform physically, relationally, and financially by shacking up the married couple. Zero times do you outperform.

1:02:10Dave Ramsey:Zero. And yet everybody does it. But I think what's important is the financial metrics, the health metrics, those are lights on the dashboard of a person who has a life where they exhale, where they can anchor in and go work hard. Right. You can work harder when you know you've got a ride or die next to you. When you're in the hospital, you've got a reason to get up and get out. Like when you're, you've got all those things. I would never tell somebody to go get married so you have more money. I would say, hey, go build an amazing life with somebody. It's going to be hard. It's going to be a challenge.

1:02:46Go do that. And the fruit on that tree is going to be more than you can imagine.

1:02:53Dave Ramsey:And I would tell you that the dashboard is right. I think you're exactly right. The financial problems are never the problem. They're the symptom. Right. So financial limitations are never the problem. They're the symptom. Financial success is never the real success. It's the fruit on the tree. Yeah. It's the symptom. And so what we're telling you is that it turns out that the best way, and like, for instance, when we interviewed the 10 ,167 millionaires, we asked them, you know, what percentage of you, what's your relationship with your spouse have to do with your wealth? 89 % said a willing, able, and enthusiastic partner is what my spouse was.

1:03:33Dave Ramsey:when you interview the general public that's broke, you ask what percentage of you is your spouse a willing, able, and enthusiastic partner? 40%, not 89%. There's a causal effect here. It's a causal statistical analysis. That's what causes it. It's the dashboard light. That's exactly what it is.

1:04:03Thank you. Thank you.

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1:05:18Dave Ramsey:That's churchillmortgage.com. This is a paid advertisement. Homebuyer Edge and Seller Guarantee are available for qualifying borrowers and select loan types only and are not available in all states or locations. NMLS ID 1591, NMLSconsumeraccess.org, Equal Housing Lender.

1:05:54Dave Ramsey:Investing might seem complicated or confusing, but it doesn't have to be. The Ramsey Investing and Retirement Hub is packed with interactive tools and resources to help you get informed, learn, not be intimidated. We'll help you. You can check it out at RamseySolutions.com slash retire or click the link in the description. Katrina is in Canada. Hi, Katrina. How are you? I'm great, thanks. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? uh so i currently live on a three acre parcel um near a small town um i'm single no kids never married and um i work in law enforcement right now and i make a pretty decent wage um but uh i have basically i work like half a month and um i'm looking to increase my wealth and i want to do something that i really love like my job right now is it's fun there's things about it that i really like but I'm looking at possibly like starting a mini cow-calf operation and my question is uh am I I just want to see like if I'm how I'm doing financially and would you advise if this is a wise decision a miniature cow-calf operation yeah you mean the operation is miniature or the cows are?

1:07:16Just the operation because my land is just three acres. So I was thinking if I get three cows and rent my friend's bull once a year, the expenses would be approximately$3 ,500 to$4 ,000 a year. And then it would bring in around$7 ,000 to$8 ,000 a year.

1:07:36Dave Ramsey:And your three acres is fertile enough to feed three cows? I'd say about 75 % is grazing land. And it's fertile enough to serve, because there's parts of the United States that takes 20 acres to do that, and there's parts of the United States that one acre will do that, so I don't know what you've got. Will the three acres feed the cows? It'll feed them for the summer, and then the winter would be... You're buying feed in the winter? Yes, yeah. You are in Canada. Okay, that makes sense. All right. And the feed costs, what, for the winter? The feed, I just did the feed and medical expenses will be for three cows, around$3 ,500 to$4 ,000.

1:08:21Oh, that's the$3 ,500.

1:08:22Dave Ramsey:Okay. Plus the purchase of the cows. That does not include the purchase of the cows. Right, is that plus? But I'm not clear. So are you out of debt? So right now I'm not out of debt, no. Okay. so um so you don't have 3 500 plus the purchase of the cows no okay the plan is to hopefully do it in the next year or two oh after you're out of debt oh yes yeah oh okay all right well then i i'm not an agribusiness expert but business is pretty simple um you want to bring in more than you have go out and the difference is called profit, right? Right. And so what's the cows cost? They range from$2 ,000 to$2 ,500 per head.

1:09:10Dave Ramsey:Okay. So you're going to have$10 ,000 invested. And if you produce at least three calves a year out of that, then you're going to make$7 ,500 on your$10 ,000 investment? Yes. Okay. Give or take. Right. Plus or minus. Plus a lot of trouble. and are you making a dollar an hour when this is done? Because you're going to be the one out there with your sleeves rolled up. In the cold, throwing hay. Oh, that's fine. I don't mind hard work, but like right now because of my current job. I do if it's a dollar an hour. I really mind it if it's a dollar an hour. It pisses me off. So I want to make$100 an hour, right?

1:09:55Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Especially if it's cold. Yeah. Hello? So, you know, that's the way you run the numbers out on the business is you say, you know, your time is not worthless because you could use your time and go do something else and make money. So it's called opportunity cost on your time. So you need to make better than a wage for running a business and taking all this risk because these stinking cows might die. Okay. And there's risk involved in all this. You run the business. and so you've got to make really really good money like 100 bucks an hour for the time you put into it otherwise it's otherwise it's an ugly hobby with it requires a lot of work because you like cows that's not that's not a business though if you want to do that that's fine but just call it an ugly hobby because i like cows and that's what i want to do but that but don't but if it's a business and you're taking the risk of the loss of the animals and um all those kinds of things And so, you know, you say, all right, I'm going to put$10 ,000 into this, I'm going to get$7 ,500 out a year, and I'm going to put X number of hours into this, and X number of hours equals$7 ,500.

1:11:04Dave Ramsey:So if I put$75 hours into it, I made$100 an hour, and I think you're going to have more than$75 hours in this. If you had$7 ,500 hours in it, you made$1 an hour. Yeah, most of the time they're just out there eating anyway. Yeah, but, I mean, you've got to make sure the medical procedures are taken care of, that the bull doesn't bust down the fence and tear up the neighbor's yard and, you know, all this stuff. You know, there's a lot going on here, kiddo. And I want you to run out the number of hours that you can. If I put 10 hours a week in this, 52 weeks, that's 5 ,200 hours. I made not even a dollar an hour.

1:11:43Dave Ramsey:That's not cool. so we got to figure out something else to do with this that that scratches your farmer jane itch but that is actually profitable enough to screw with um because i think you're gonna have more than 10 hours a week in this and i want to dave's point sit down with somebody who runs cows that will talk to you about birthing challenges and vet bills and all that other stuff that nobody thinks about because it does it's easy to drive by a pasture and just say i can put some cows on my place and i could just sell those cows but man my buddies that run actually run cattle in texas and oklahoma it's a it's a it's a whole lot more stuff going on yeah yeah and be honest about when you're doing your law enforcement work half the year who's going to take care of the cows then too well it sounds like she's working half time not a half year oh i thought it was half a year half a week okay if i understood right okay yeah it's more like a 72 on 72 off thing or something But yeah, anyway, that's how you analyze it.

1:12:45Dave Ramsey:Then you've got to decide and say, is it worth it? The problem is when I start crunching the numbers on this, it takes all the romance out of it. It takes all the, ooh, we get to play with cows. No, that's no longer fun. I don't know. That's a whole thing now, Dave, is to go sit in a field and hug a cow. It's like a whole therapy thing people are trying to do. Okay. James is super into it. We need to get$7 ,500 an hour for that. Exactly. There you go. Somehow let's get this stinking thing profitable. That's all I want. I mean, cow hugging, cow birthing, you can go wherever you want to go with it.

1:13:18Dave Ramsey:I don't care what the product line is, but it needs to be profitable when we're done for the trouble that I put into it. Or maybe we can do both. Have a, you know, birth the cow and then hug the cow. I don't know. Hence James. Whoa. How did James get thrown out of the bus? He's not into cows. Golly. James. We can do nothing with him except turn off his microphone. That's all we can do with him. He can turn off ours. That's the problem. That's what I meant. Yours. Oh, mine. Gotcha. No, it's a whole thing, man. I know equine therapy is one of the most amazing things in the world with a proven track record.

1:13:50And now people pay money to go sit in a field and hug a cow. And they're calling it. They're not for the therapist. I don't know therapists doing it, but it's an experience. Kind of like yoga or goat yoga. It's just like a weird, like it's people with a lot of live, laugh, love signs in their house, I think. That have some extra resources, and they're just like. The 70s were good to their parents? I think it's probably real, real good to their parents. And they're like, you know what would make me feel better? I'm going to go. I'm going to go to Cal, and I'll post about it. I don't know.

1:14:20Dave Ramsey:I like Katrina's idea better. I love it. But I would like to. I'm more akin to actually doing a business here. You love burgers and ribeyes. Yeah. Well, but I mean, let's make some cows and calves. And I just am afraid that when all the smoke clears on this, that the investment is not, the juice isn't going to be worth the squeeze. And that's what you've got to be careful of. And you do have to factor in that in business, there are three rules. It's going to take twice as long as you think. It's going to cost twice as much as you think. And you're not the exception. Those are the three rules.

1:15:06Thank you.

1:16:00Dave Ramsey:Caitlin's in Missouri. Hi, Caitlin. How are you? Hi, Dave and John. I'm calling to find out if my husband and I can financially afford for me to stay home with my baby. Can you live on his income? I think so. My husband's take-home is about$6 ,000. My take-home is about$4 ,000. We have no debt, no mortgage. Our house is worth$500 ,000. We have about$250 ,000 for mutual funds that you recommend. How much is your house payment? No mortgage. Oh, wow. Our house is worth$500 ,000. Well, you ought to be able to live on$6 ,000, can't you? Yeah. I think our overage would be about$2 ,000. My husband's currently only putting$5 ,000 toward retirement, so he needs to up that to 15%.

1:16:45But I think it's hard. I like my job, but I want to stay home with my baby. But it's a little hard. It's a little scary to quit.

1:16:54Dave Ramsey:Are you working now? You're working now? Yes. You're back to work after the last baby. This is my first baby, and I'm back to work after the 12 weeks of leave. Okay. And, yeah, that's a real hard thing. Okay. Yeah. So why don't you live on your husband's income and bank your income for a couple months? Okay. Just to prove to yourselves you can do it. Mm-hmm. No, that's a good idea. I think you can. The numbers you gave me sound right. Yeah. It is going to require a life change, though. And the life change is we're not going to be able to be as willy-nilly as we were. Because you have no payments.

1:17:36You've got no mortgage. When you're bringing home$10 ,000 a month, you can kind of do whatever you want. Yeah. And by reducing your income 40%, you're going to have to make some changes. Like, we're going to have to eat at home. And we can't take that vacation. And that's just going to be the tradeoff to being a stay-at-home mom. Mm-hmm. I'm 29, he's 27. Who knows how many years I'd be off, maybe three to five, and then go back. It's just scary, I think, to quit your job and take the leap of faith. And you have to be ready for a couple of things. Thing number one, you are now part of the woman industrial guilt complex or the mother industrial guilt complex.

1:18:17People will be after you for staying at home. People will be after you for not going back to work. People are going to want to do stuff, and you're going to have to say no. your husband's going to want a new thing and he's going to have to say no because there's just going to be always this sense that I'm not enough or I'm doing the wrong thing. Knowing that on the front end, you can prepare for it.

1:18:36Dave Ramsey:It might not even be a sense. It might be a direct message from some loser on the outside. Right. And so you just got to go, eh, your opinion doesn't count. You don't really get a vote. We're living on six grand and I'm here with the baby and I'm really, really happy with that idea. I also understand I'm no longer a professional woman and that does bother me a little bit but I made a choice between that put that on the scale I put a baby on the other side of the scale the baby won but that doesn't make you you suddenly not want to have a career or not be intellectually stimulated by hitting and setting goals right yeah and so putting some things in place like I'm gonna have two or three women that I get together with every week and we're gonna have a book study we're gonna talk about politics or deep stuff or projects or I'm going to backfill some of those intellectual needs, the stimulation needs, the adult conversation needs.

1:19:27I'm going to make sure that's still a part of my life because it's meaningful to me and it makes me who I am. Yeah. I think I get scared that I won't be able to find a job when I try to back enter back.

1:19:38Dave Ramsey:You will. Oh, yeah. No troubles at all. Okay. What's your field? I work in marketing. Okay. And I have an MBA. Okay. But I've only been working. The stuff you learned in the MBA was generic and strategic. It was not tactical marketing skills you use today. True. Your tactical marketing skills were acquired by being in the marketplace and moving around. You will lose those because the way we do marketing today is vastly different than it was 18 months ago and way different than it was 10 years ago. and so if you stay out of the market five years you know what is the what does ai do to the marketing process it's going to change it and you're going to be behind on that but does that mean you can't get a job no you still have the basic marketing skill set and then you'll have to just learn some of the tactical things to stay up to date the other thing you could do is um after the baby is a year old or so, you could start doing some freelance stuff on the side just to keep your skills sharp just for fun.

1:20:45Dave Ramsey:Not because you have to, but because it keeps your toe in the water and we know what the temperature is. That might be fun because there's a lot of small businesses could use somebody with an MBA with marketing skills to help them move some of their marketing along and they don't have the financial bandwidth to put somebody on full-time like that. That's what I would do. That's a good idea. Which is easy for me to say on this side, having never had to make that trade, right? But finding one or two people who have a small business and you can help or you can take a little bit of money, but you're doing it less for the money but more for the skills.

1:21:24Dave Ramsey:But here's the thing. You guys make good money, you and your husband, and he makes good money, and you've already done a great job. You've got a paid-for house. You've got money saved. You're going to be in great financial condition. And so what happened with Sharon Ramsey was she never went back. She transferred from full-time mom to full-time grandmom to full-time Bible study leader and book club leader and generally all these things. I mean, she's got her thing, and none of it is earning an income, quote, unquote, other than allowing me to, which earns her a great income. But, you know, all that stuff.

1:22:03Dave Ramsey:So, you know, it doesn't have to be that you do this in order to be a real person. So just whatever you want to do. That's the point. And whatever floats your boat, right, whatever makes you happy and takes you there. So I would do all of those things. But, yeah, I think coming home, you'll worry about the financial thing less if you just take two months and say, we're going to bank my check and live on yours. We're going to practice. Make our every dollar budget with your take-home pay. And, by the way, he does have to get that back up to 15%. You've got to be putting 15 % of your income away, at least.

1:22:38Dave Ramsey:And you don't have a payment in the world. There's no reason you can't do that, except that you want to spend it on other stuff. So you really do need to be doing that. But 15 % of$6 ,000 is not that bad. It's$900 a month. It's very doable. Very doable. And that's going to take you to a lot of wonderful places that you're going to want to go to. And for everybody listening, I think this is an important moment. this couple has put in the work up until now and now they can honestly sit across the table and do whatever they want and it's not a matter of i have this deep sense that i want to stay at home but i can't because i've got all this past all this old things that i've already bought but haven't yet paid for dragging behind me and so they put the work in and here they are and now they can do whatever they want it doesn't mean it's going to come without a sacrifice without frustrations, but they could do whatever they want because they put the time in.

1:23:30So, um, and I love that they're in this, they have this opportunity. Yeah.

1:23:36Dave Ramsey:I do think that I'm pot and I don't think I'm sure, uh, that ladies in our society today, uh, get a lot of messages from a lot of people that don't have a right to put a vote in on whether they should work or not. And so if you're working and well, you're a bad mom, If you're a full-time mom, stay-at-home mom, well, you've abandoned, you've not become your best version of you. You didn't go be a professional woman and do all this stuff. And they get these guilt messages from both sides. And like you said, it's the industrial female guilt machine. Right. And what I hear a lot on my show is people make the sacrifice, women make the sacrifice, they stay at home, and suddenly they find themselves in a place that they've never experienced, which is a deep loneliness.

1:24:26as they've got no other adults in their life. And they either turn to scrolling as a way to connect with the outside world. And that's where these messages get dumped in there. Oh God. Or their spouse, their husband comes home and it becomes like the trash can. He dumps all the bad stuff that happened in his day. She dumps all the bad stuff. And that's a way to split your marriage. And so knowing, hey, I'm gonna be all by myself. And so I'm gonna not just go home and lock myself in a box for the next three to five years, but I'm going to create community intentionally that I might have got just at the water cooler at the office.

1:24:59I'm going to be intentional about it. And man, then there's going to have a whole bunch of people speaking into your life that are real people that actually care about you.

1:25:06Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And here's the trick. Decide what you're going to do and you and your husband, you're the ones who really get a vote. What everybody else thinks doesn't really matter. You don't get a vote. And you're going to have to turn it off because the crap is out there and people don't mind shoveling it today.

1:25:40Hey, what's up? Dr. John Deloney here. The new dates have dropped for the Money in Marriage getaway over Valentine's Day weekend in 2026. This is your chance to hit pause on everything in your life and reconnect with your spouse over a long weekend in Nashville, Tennessee. Me and my friend Rachel Cruz will be digging into topics like sex, money, communication, and more. This weekend is happening on February 12th through the 14th, and early bird prices start at$749 per couple, but the prices will be going up soon. Get your tickets today at RamseySolutions.com slash events.

1:26:27Dave Ramsey:welcome back to the Ramsey show in the fair winds credit union studio dr. John Deloney number one person number one best-selling author I'm the number one person that's it I'll take it yeah you're all of that and number one show on the Ramsey networks not really but a big show on the Ramsey networks he's number one everywhere in his mind. So check it all out. He's here to help me this hour, since my mouth is apparently not working. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Thomas is in South Dakota. Help us, Thomas. What's up? Hey, Dave. Hey, John. What's going on? I'm calling today because I'm 18 years active duty military.

1:27:07Dave Ramsey:Thank you. Unfortunately, thank you. Unfortunately, a couple years ago, life happened, and I ended up getting divorced. With that, before we got divorced, my ex-wife and I, we were completely debt-free, and I was able to contribute 60 % of my income towards investments. 40 % was going to my TSP, and another 20 % was going to my kids' college funds. But now that I'm divorced, I've been divorced now for two years, I have found myself accumulating a little bit of debt. I'm back at$57 ,000 worth of debt. What in the world? What did you buy in two years? So I bought a vehicle on your baby steps. What kind of truck is it?

1:27:52It's a Ford Raptor.

1:27:59Dave Ramsey:Well, I think we found the problem, Thomas. It's definitely part of it. No, it's the whole thing. It's all of it. Taylor Swift It's your divorce Raptor truck. We know what it is. It's called I'm the Problem. It's me.

1:28:15So I'm calling because I can pay this debt off pretty quickly. What do you make? I make about$78 ,000 a year.

1:28:22Dave Ramsey:You make$78 ,000 a year. And you owe what on the Raptor? I owe$57 ,000. Yeah. Well, I owe$37 ,000 on the Raptor and$18 ,000 in credit card debt that I use to purchase furniture and stuff for the house that I got divorced. Okay. All right. I still contribute the 60 % of my income towards my TSP. You can't afford to do that. You're broke. So I was thinking, so my philosophy here and what I was looking for is some guidance. I was thinking about cutting off my TSP. However, in the divorce, my ex-wife decided to go ahead, hey, your whole military pension is yours. I just want half the TSP. I've still been contributing because in my head I was like I'd rather make a little bit more money on the back end versus stop contributing altogether and out of spite just not contribute because I don't want her to get it When does she get half?

1:29:20Dave Ramsey:Now? 67

1:29:28What?

1:29:28Dave Ramsey:No, wait a minute That's not possible Is this divorce isn't final, is it? It is, yes, sir. So when we went to court, I had several different options that I could do. And you agreed to give her half of your TSP at age 67? Yes. Not what half of it becomes by then, but whatever's in there. That's not right. Something's wrong. Based off of what the lawyers were saying and stuff, they said that was the better of the deal. Apparently these lawyers didn't take math class. that's a horrible deal um all right so you need to get clarification because i don't think you understand what really happened or you got the worst deal in the history of divorces i've never heard of this deal this is what you got it is normal for you to transfer half of your tsp to her now that is a normal process in a divorce and she can roll that into an ira and have no taxes it is very strange for her to get anything at age 67.

1:30:41Dave Ramsey:Like, I've never heard of this in 35 years of doing what I do. That's strange. What they wanted to do was she would get half of my military pension on top of half of the TSP. Yeah, that would be normal. But half the TSP today, not at 67. Well, now with the deal that they worked out was she doesn't get any of the military pension. and she only gets the TSP. Okay. Now or at 67? At 67 when it matures. Okay. Then it should be half, like you're half of your TSP. How much is in your TSP today? 166. Okay. So half would be 83 ,000, okay? Right? Yes. Today. Okay, so whatever$83 ,000 grows to at age 67, she should get.

1:31:36Dave Ramsey:But she shouldn't get half of everything you put in between now and then, because otherwise you would put in nothing between now and then.

1:31:46Right, so that was going to be my next question, is if I just stop contributing altogether,

1:31:50Dave Ramsey:what do I do to get myself out of? Listen, if you did the worst deal in divorce history, and she gets half of your TSP regardless of whether you put money in or not, that's the worst deal I've ever heard of in my life. I've never even heard of you get half at 67. That's just very weird, dude. Like these lawyers are completely freaking incompetent weird, okay? But if you did do that, you need to go back and clarify, is it what half of it today becomes what 83 ,000 becomes at 67, or is it just half of whatever's in there? Because if it's half of whatever's in there, you don't put another dime in it.

1:32:31Dave Ramsey:You're done with that. You got to go put money in a Roth IRA and you got to put money in other stuff, but the TSP is off limits to you because she's going to take half of everything you put in there for the next, you know, how many, how old are you? I'm 36. Yeah, good God, for 30 years you're going to contribute to her. No, thank you. You did the worst deal ever. So, no, we're not doing that. That's dumb. That's dumber than a rock, man. I'm telling you that. I'm so pissed at your lawyer right now. I can't see. I want to smack him. This is horrible. But you did the deal. I guess it's final. So you need to go back and get clarity if she gets what half, what 83 ,000 becomes, or if she gets half of whatever's in there.

1:33:17Dave Ramsey:It's going to be whatever's in there. Otherwise, they would have just transferred the 83 out. They should have just transferred the 83 out. That's what they should have done. That would be normal instead of this dumb butt thing they did. Yeah, John is correct. It is whatever is in there later. Because I tried to fight and get the half now, but then they were like, well, then. Then here's what it is. She gets what that half becomes because it's not going to become anything else because you're not going to have anything else to it. You're stupid if you do. Okay. But you are the one that signed this divorce decree also.

1:33:48Dave Ramsey:Oh, my God. This is horrible, man. It's just horrible. She has a 30-year claim on future earnings for you. Jeez, man. You all have kids? We have two of them. I've heard a few. This is I want to get away from this woman really bad is what this is. I've heard, and rightfully so, a future claim on future earnings if you've got kids through the age of 18. Right? So if you were making$25 ,000 and suddenly you're making$150 ,000. That's child support. That's not this. That's child support. That's normal. That's what I'm saying. I've heard of that. That's normal. But half the 401K is normal. Half the TSP is normal.

1:34:21Dave Ramsey:But you transfer it now, and it rolls out into an IRA, and then she does whatever she does with it. Okay, your answer is you have a truck you can't afford that you bought while you're grieving your broken heart. And your heart was broken by your wife and your idiot attorney. So you have two reasons for a broken heart. So you've got to sell this truck, honey. And I love Raptors. I drove one over here today. I like them. But this truck is brain damage. So it's killing you. You cannot afford to drive this truck. It's more truck than you can afford with the money you make. Sell your truck, get your budget back balanced, and move into the future.

1:34:58Dave Ramsey:And please don't put anything else in this TSP.

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1:36:05Dave Ramsey:If you died today, how would your family keep the lights on, pay the mortgage, afford the groceries? If anyone in your life depends on your income, you need life insurance. That's called being an adult. But how do you choose from all the options out there? Well, it's actually simple. Life insurance has one job. It's to replace your income if you die. Term life insurance is the most efficient, inexpensive way to do that. The others include investments and crap that rip you off, like whole life and permanent life. We don't do those. End up doing a really bad job at everything. Instead, just do term life, 10 to 12 times your annual income, 15 to 20 year level term, which means the premium stays the same.

1:36:43Dave Ramsey:If you want to learn more about this, you can get the free term life insurance guide. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash term life guide or click the link in the show notes. Wendy is in Washington. Hi, Wendy. How are you? Hi. Good. Thanks for having me on. Sure. How can we help? So there's no easy way to say this, so I'm just going to jump right into it. Cannonball. Let's do it. Okay. So my sister stole everything from my parents in their senior years, and my mother died of neglect under her care and my dad ended up in the hospital days later during which she wiped out their bank accounts maxed out their credit cards and she contributed on some level if not all of their reverse mortgage being maxed out to the tune of 450 000 my father has later stages of dementia now i know from going through what i've been with him the last two years that my mom also I'm positive had dementia at the time and so my sister had been living with them slowly took over she moved in right before COVID slowly took over their home slowly took over their finances and just abused them because they weren't mentally and physically able to do anything about it what a lovely girl that's heartbreaking really hard yeah it's really hard so um my dad is safe he's in a secured memory care facility now and he's being cared for it took me seven months of fighting on so many levels i can't even name them it would take 20 pages of writing um but finally got his social security safe which is all he has left um the home that they owned for um almost 40 years was auctioned off and we lost it.

1:38:43And I did not expect to get any funds from it because of the condition she left in. It basically looked like a meth house that squatters got into. But it did. It auctioned off for an amount that left funds to the tune of about$130 ,000 left. and as soon as those funds came into my control I was forced to go through conservatorship and guardianship to help my dad because their will unfortunately their will wasn't notarized and every banking institution and everyone we dealt with said that it was invalid and so it took me a lot of hard work to try to prove that there were any funds stolen when I didn't have access or and I wasn't a POA to request copies of financial statements and those things.

1:39:32So it took me seven months to get his money safe, his account safe. And, um, and he ended up homeless and living with my husband and I, and we cared for him for seven months until his health got to a point where he needed to be in a secured memory care facility.

1:39:48Dave Ramsey:I got you. Okay. So where are we today? So where are, where we are is the house actually auctioned off. We have the 130 ,000. And he immediately lost Medicaid because he had that money. So we're on private pay. And I don't expect those funds to last through mid next year. Okay. And then he'll be back on Medicaid. Then I'll be back on Medicaid. Correct. And so my, here's my question. If, if my dad passes, he's, you know, I mean, the reality of it is it could be at any time. If my dad passes, the will states the intent of the will and what my parents wanted was to the funds to be divided between their living children, which would be my brother and my sister and I.

1:40:31My soul cannot do that based on everything she's done. And I guess.

1:40:37Dave Ramsey:You mean the$130 ,000 if he died today? Yes. Because that's the only thing that's left, right? There's nothing else. That's all that's left. And honestly, there are a few bills, like, between attorney's fees and things. I just don't see anything being left over. But I also didn't expect the house to sell. Yeah, when you went through all this stuff for the last seven months, did you have expenditures out of your pocket? Oh, yeah. My husband and I financially supported him. Yeah, yeah. I did a little bit in the ways that I could. No, reimburse yourself. All of it. Okay. Out of the$130. Okay. That moves it out of his name into your name.

1:41:17As a conservator, I had a very strict budget that I had to stick to, so I could bring it up next time I go to court.

1:41:23Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I go to court and say, I need all my legal fees reimbursed for protecting him. Yeah, those are covered. Those got reimbursed. Yeah, and I need to pay all the legal bills. I need to pay out of this. I want to deplete this money down to where there's nothing there, and then you don't have a moral conundrum. Yeah. I also was curious if the intent of the will still stands. No. Okay. The will's not valid. Everybody told you that. Okay. The will doesn't, it's not even a will because it's not notarized and your state requires it to be notarized. Right. He's dying without a will. That makes it easy for me.

1:41:57Dave Ramsey:He's dying without a will. Okay. Because he's not competent to execute a will. I'm sorry. He's not competent to execute a will under your state's terms right now. Correct. And he doesn't have a will under your state's terms right now. Am I understanding that right? That's what everybody told you, right? Correct. That's why the conservatorship was put in place, because the will was deemed invalid. Okay. So the will doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. That's what you're looking for. Yeah, but guess what? The state is going to say, most states say, the three children are the three heirs, and they'll be split three ways if there's no will.

1:42:33Dave Ramsey:That would be normal. So you're back to the same problem, but there's going to be no money left if I'm you, because I will have spent this down like the next time I'm in front of the judge. okay i'm gonna go buy him an eighty thousand dollar bed and put in there yeah i'm serious there's not going to be any money left yeah no i don't expect there to be i think my biggest fear and it's not like a thing of trying to win or trying to stick it to someone oh wait a minute i got a better idea go before the conservatorship and what i want to do is prepay the next year of his care, and I want to reimburse you for all of your legal expenses.

1:43:15Dave Ramsey:And I think the money's gone. Yeah, it will be. Okay, good. All right, Wendy, you were about to go there. I'll go there for you. There's no revenge. Let your sister go. Oh, I have. I totally, I 100 % have. I think I had a really hard time with the fact that she's never been held accountable for anything. I've got a hard time with it. I'm kind of pissed right now. I let it go. You haven't let it go, though, because you're projecting future what ifs and you're trying to solve them and be heartbroken and angry in the present. That's true. It's true. You caught me. Just stop. You have enough challenges for today.

1:43:53Yeah. You and your husband have proven to each other that we can come together when life throws us chaos. You all have done an amazing job. You have a great marriage. I'm so proud of you. And guess what? Thank you.

1:44:03Dave Ramsey:Parasites don't eat as well as carnivores.

1:44:08Dave Ramsey:they just don't she so at the end of the day she's still a miserable hack she didn't get what she was after she was looking for something she couldn't get there no and so it's like you know just being a thief is never it's never a rewarding profession especially from your aging parents she's gotta live without the rest of her life talk about a burden. Yeah. Let her carry that, not you. She disappeared for the last two and a half years, but during the guardianship. Yeah. And during the conservatorship process, she had to be served and she found out that there was equity in the home and immediately showed up.

1:44:48Of course she did. Of course she did. I know, but you're saying that like you're surprised.

1:44:51Dave Ramsey:You're doing all this again. You're saying that like you're surprised. Of course she did. She stole from your parents. Of course she's going to show up. She wanted to finish the theft. Oops, I left a brooch on the dresser. Don't create stories in the future and let them keep you up at night in the present. You've been running this over in your head. You've burned a whole lot more calories on this than she has. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm sorry you've been through this. And what she did was horrible. You're an amazing daughter. She's a horrible human being and you did all the right stuff.

1:45:23Dave Ramsey:So come out with the rewards which is you know I did the right thing. I put my head on my pillow. But yeah, go prepay the nursing home with the conservator's permission and put the rest in your pocket to recoup all of your time, your expenses, your legal fees. I'll guarantee you there's$80 ,000 there for sure.

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1:46:48Dave Ramsey:Mike and Lori are on the debt-free stage in the Ramsey Solutions lobby. What's up, guys? Hi, Dave. Good to see y 'all again. Y 'all were on the cruise with us. We were. We were. Wow. Yes. Well, welcome. I'm glad you didn't wear your swimsuit on the Deffrey stage. You don't want to see that, John. I've already seen it. I'm all right now. Everything's better now. Everything's better now. How much debt have you two paid off? $175 ,000. Wow. How long did this take, Mike? 29 months, Dave. Whoa. And your range of income during that time? Range of income was$210 ,000 to$250 ,000. Woo. What do you all do for a living?

1:47:25I am an accountant. I'm actually a client services representative for a worker's comp MCO company. And I'm a health care administrator and a nurse.

1:47:36Dave Ramsey:Oh, awesome. Very cool. What kind of debt was the$175 ,000? It was mostly our home. Oh, look at that weird people. I'm telling you. Houses paid off. I love it. What's the house worth? About$600 ,000. Very cool. And how much in your retirement nest eggs? Over a million, Dave, yeah, between us. Good, so you're Baby Steps Millionaires. Yep. Debt-free house and everything. How old are you, pups? We're... Today is Mike's 60th birthday. It's my 60th. All right, very cool. Kind of a milestone. And I'm 57. All right, and you got a net worth of a million and a half to$2 million. Way to go, y 'all. Very proud of you.

1:48:14Dave Ramsey:How's that feel? Amazing. It feels amazing, Dave. It really does. Like you say on the show, it just takes something off your shoulders when that happens. Just amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I'm so proud of you guys. That's so amazing. So how did you run into the whole Ramsey thing 29 months ago? I'll just tell you, I'll start just started watching your Lori got me really hooked on your YouTube videos and we just started watching those. That was a big part of it. I'll just tell you this. She bought your total money makeover book about over 25 years ago. And I think you're right. It was kind of just on the coffee table for a long time.

1:48:51It's good for the it's a good coaster. And then we're like, we started reading and we're like, oh, this is unbelievable. And just, I think the goals are so important. I know we'll talk about this, but just the system itself is just incredible. And we were very thankful.

1:49:06Dave Ramsey:So you got, you went in all, you took it off the coffee table and went full in when? Well, we, when we took the FPU. So we kind of baby Ramseyed it a little bit. Yeah. When was that? Probably during COVID because we couldn't travel anymore. Okay, so five years you've been going, but the last 29 months was paying off the house. Right. Okay. Pretty much, yeah. All right. Wow. Good for you guys. Fun, fun, fun. Man. All right. Now that you've been through all of that and you're standing here, I mean, do you remember being 20-something and thinking about being a millionaire someday? Oh. No. I do. He did.

1:49:45I do remember that. I remember it.

1:49:47Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Oh, it was. But I had no idea how much work it was going to be. Right. Right. Right. And I had no idea how good it was going to feel. I had this feeling like in my head it was like hitting the lottery, but it's quite the opposite. It's much deeper, richer. The money's not as important. It's what you become while you're getting it together. Yes. True. And who you are as a couple and who you are as people and the way you see things is completely different. No doubt about it, Dave. Yeah. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt and being a millionaire, almost two millionaire by the time you're 60?

1:50:19I just think the main reason is just, it's just, we just, we almost acted as one, Dave. Like, like you talk about marriage, we always felt like we had a solid marriage over the years, but it just took it to a new level where we're just doing something that we have each have a goal for. And then we just did it together. What do you think, hon? Yeah. And I think, you know, having a vision and finding a plan. And when you look at a plan, I mean, the Ramsey seven baby steps is the best plan to have. And I have to say, one of the things I really, I know Rachel gets a lot of hate mail for this, is one thing I really had a hard time doing was combining bank accounts.

1:50:55And we did not do that until closer to the end of our debt freedom. And it simplified our whole entire life. So I just, I think, keep saying that to people because I think we do need to hear it.

1:51:07Dave Ramsey:So you were the one that was resistant? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Okay. Why? you know probably some rooted fear somewhere and well mike is a scary guy

1:51:24you mentioned something that we've started saying more and more around here there's solving for this fear somewhere and there's always going to be more fear over the horizon but you went in and did this and you started solving for peace and just the idea of getting multiple bank account statements every month, just looking at each other and just reconciling one gives you 30 minutes back a week or an hour back a week, and suddenly you start to do things together. I just love it, man. What's a tangible, you're in your 60s. I like to say that now. Sorry, that was pretty harsh. She's not. Yeah, she's not.

1:52:02Imagine there's a couple who's in their 30s. They've been married for three or four years. What would you tell them right now what the other side of this journey feels like? I just think it's just, you just got to focus. I mean, the big thing is just believe. You know, a lot of people out there, I think you talked about this on the show, they don't believe they can do it. And no matter what your debt is, you've seen it with Jade, with others, it can happen and just focus, get on the same page with your spouse and just go at it. And it's so worth it, John, like you said, it's just, it's not an easy thing, but it's a lot easier than being in debt.

1:52:38Lori and I have gone on trips over the years prior to COVID, and we budget a certain amount. We went to Italy, went to London, went to Hawaii and stuff. And then we'd always use our credit cards over and above what we budgeted. And that's just, you can't do it. Just go over. And then it's so rewarding once you do get that control. I think it's about doing the right thing biblically and just doing the right thing as human beings.

1:53:01Dave Ramsey:It's so strange that discipline is satisfying. Oh, my gosh, Dave. Exactly. That's a strange paradox. And she's amazing. I just have to say this. She's the reason we kept on getting the increase in income. That's Lori. I've had the same job. I love it. I like what I do. But she has just gone over and above to get new jobs. She also even did a side hustle. She got her nursing degree, and she does a side hustle working at this village, actually, senior village in Columbus. So she was a big part of this, a huge part of it. Yeah. Well, the bigger the shovel, the faster you get out of the hole. That's a big deal.

1:53:37I don't know how I would feel if a nurse walked in and was like, hey, this is my side hustle. That didn't sound good.

1:53:47That's incredible, guys. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. I'm proud of you. And it's hard to change patterns in a marriage this far along. And for you to say— How long have you been married?

1:53:59Dave Ramsey:23 years. I'm scared to do something as seemingly simple as join a bank account. we've been doing it this way for this long this isn't working I'm going to try this that takes real courage and bravery I'm proud of you man that's hard it's hard to stop the dance that's been going on for 20 something years and you did it that's amazing thank you yeah and you'll reap the benefits of it so now you're worth a couple million dollars you're 100 % debt free house and everything you're making a quarter million dollars a year what's the first big financial fun thing you're going to do well we're going to take my mom to Spain next year.

1:54:36Yay!

1:54:39Dave Ramsey:Why Spain? We've always wanted to go. Oh, because you wanted to go. Okay. And she wants to go, too. Of course she wants to go. I bet she does. It's a cruise, too, Dave, so you guys got us kind of hooked on cruises. I got you hooked on cruises. All right, that's good. John, I just have to say this. We actually did the marriage class with you and Rachel, and it was phenomenal. I just want to thank you. You guys are so entertaining, too. You're funny. They're like a couple comedians doing stand-up. I'll have a blast. Marriage stand-up routine. Well, I'm glad y 'all came. Thank you, John. That's good.

1:55:09Dave Ramsey:All right. Well, enjoy Spain. I'm very proud of you guys. Excellent. Live like no one else. Now you can live and give. Take mom with you like no one else. I like it. Reward it. That's good. So$175 ,000 paid off in 29 months. House and everything in the process. Confirm and become Baby Steps Millionaires. Mike and Lori, Columbus, Ohio. Count it down. let's hear a debt-free scream 3, 2, 1 We're debt-free! Yeah!

1:55:44Dave Ramsey:That's how you do it ladies and gentlemen worth all the trouble that's all I can say and I'll say this the biggest lesson I'm taking away from Mike and Lori is it's never too late it's never too late it's never too late to change the way you interact with your marriage it's never too late to change how you interact with your money it's never too late proud of you guys well done

1:56:33you

1:56:51Dave Ramsey:Our scripture of the day, Romans 8, 37. Yet amid all these things, we are more than conquerors and gain a surpassing victory through him who loved us. A.A. Milne said, don't dodge difficulties. Meet them, greet them, beat them. All great men have been through the ringer. And women, for that matter. That's true. Yeah, true, true, true. Pam is in Houston, Texas. Hey, Pam, how are you? I'm just fine. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? Well, we have a house that's paid off, and we have a lot of equity in it. Good. So my question is, you know, I just see an opportunity to put more money into the stock market, and I don't really see a lot of our money growing with all the equity that we have into it.

1:57:37So I wanted to get your thoughts on different scenarios. You know, sell the house, you know, because we're in, you know, we're 65 and 63.

1:57:46Dave Ramsey:What's wrong with the house? Oh, nothing's wrong with it. It's just selling it, renting, and taking that money, and then stocking it away in the stock market. So what's the house worth? About a million. And how much do you have in your nest egg currently invested in 401ks and so forth? We've got several seven figures. Several million? Yeah. Okay. Like more than three? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So the answer to the question is this is a hypothetical because your life is okay. Yes, yes, but I hate seeing money sit idle. It's not sitting idle. The house is going up in value. Well, I mean, that is true. It's going up in value almost as fast as the market is.

1:58:36Well, I would hope to think so. No, I mean, the actual data says that.

1:58:40Dave Ramsey:It's not a hope. Well, that's good to hear. I buy real estate as an investment because it goes up in value. Yeah, and that is true. We've bought several properties and some that we've made money and some we've just kind of broken even with. But, you know, I just thought that, you know, by freeing up some of this money, we could just buy more stuff in the stock market that we would like and just see if that's a good investment. And if we rented anything, it would just be what I'm paying right now. And property tax, my tax, you know, HOAs and insurance. I wouldn't want to go over that particular number.

1:59:19Dave Ramsey:I'm sorry, if you rented. I got confused. I thought you mean you're selling the house in this scenario. Yes, if I wanted to sell the house. And be a renter. Yes. At our age, we have the flexibility to not worry about the house. Then I could take all that money and then just sock it away in the stock market and then make my kids' lives easier if something should happen to us. Your kids are okay. Your kids are going to be fine. um the um and if they're not it's their problem the um wow um can i i want to ask this question and you um pam you and dave are in a different stage of life than me financially and age-wise and otherwise i keep asking myself if i got to be your age and i had that kind of resources i'm living in a paid four million dollar house yeah why wouldn't you look to have fun Oh, we do have fun.

2:00:13We do have fun. I mean, we just got back from a three-week trip in Europe. So is the house a burden in some way? It's a lot of work. It sounds like you want to move, and you're looking for permission to move. I guess so. We do a lot of the yard work ourselves. It's just, you know, that's who we are. We're hard workers. So just move.

2:00:34Dave Ramsey:So stop it. Yeah, pay somebody. I don't do yard work. not because i'm a snot i can just afford not to do it you say you enjoy it but you say you enjoy it but you want to sell it and start renting well it just frees up you know i don't have to worry about the house you're trying to make the fact that you don't like this house anymore into some kind of wise sophisticated financial move but it's not just sell the house and move that's the answer to the question if you want to move that's okay if you want to move into a uh a you know if you want to sell the house and buy a condominium for half of the price and all the work is done for you because you want to travel and see the world and you're tired of the upkeep and those kinds of things, that's a different motivation than, Dave, I think it's wise to borrow or to sell my house and put all the money in the market and be a renter for the next 35 years.

2:01:24Dave Ramsey:That is not wise. Okay. Okay. Mathematically, that's not wise because what you have to have, your largest line item in your monthly living expenses is housing. And when you do not own the house, your largest line item called rent goes up every single year. And you destabilize the situation. Now, not enough to cause you guys to be broke. You got enough money, you're going to be okay. But it's a destabilizer rather than a financial mathematical blessing to do what you're talking about. And the data also tells us this, that the typical millionaire in the first$5 million of net worth has mainly investments in 401ks and a paid-for million-dollar house.

2:02:08Dave Ramsey:Yeah. That's the typical millionaire. None of the millionaires, precisely zero of the 10 ,000 that we interviewed, said, I became a millionaire by borrowing on my home and investing it into the stock market. That's not what you're proposing. But you are proposing to go backward in the line of financial evolution and become a renter instead of an owner. I got you. And that destabilizes the situation. Now, can you afford to do that? Yes, if that's what you want to do. And you'll still be okay with the numbers you gave me. But we're not going to blame it on the fact that it is a financially sophisticated move.

2:02:47Dave Ramsey:It is not. Or if you want to, instead of paying rent, take a quarter of that and hire a full-time yard keeper. Butler, maid, cook, whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. And you turn this thing into Downton Abbey and ring a little bell. And it's OK for y 'all to do that, to say, hey, we're 60 now. We don't want to do yard work anymore. We're going to go for walks instead. We're going to have long coffees. And then we're like, you're here. You made it. You're here. And that's OK. Or if you want to sell it like Dave said, if you want to sell a house and buy an 800 square foot house, do that. But don't say it's don't try to come up with some like matrix algorithm.

2:03:24Just say this is what we want to do.

2:03:25Dave Ramsey:No, it's not wiser to be a renter and have the money invested in the stock market than it is to be an owner of your personal residence. Mathematically, it is not wiser. That's the answer to your overall question. And can I say one more thing? Yep. Your kids are going to get millions of dollars when you pass. They're fine. Now you're – there's a level of – I'm trying to think of the right word – codependency. I need to make sure their future problems that they haven't even experienced yet are going to be okay so that I can be okay now. Yeah. And so I cut my own grass. So, right. Don't put that on your kids.

2:04:02I cut my own grass so that you have an inheritance. They're going to get a million dollars each. They're going to be fine. Y 'all go on about your life. And if they're not.

2:04:09Dave Ramsey:They're still going to be fine. It ain't the million dollars' fault. They've learned how to work hard for me. Plus or minus a yard fee. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Your kids are good. Y 'all are good. Yeah. So I cut grass as my high school thing. And 27 yards cut when I was 12 years old. I cut so much grass by the time I was 19, God said I never had to do it again. No, he didn't. So he did. It was a personal appointment I had with him. He spoke audibly to me. No, I'm kidding. But I've not picked up a weed eater or a lawnmower again. I mean, I mowed my grass when Sharon and I got married for like one year.

2:04:48Dave Ramsey:And after that, I just, I'm done. I'm done with mowing grass and you know but guess what I can make more during the time that I would be you know and and calling myself a hard worker riding a zero turn mower around and around in circles like all the old men on my street and I could do that but no I can make more in that two hours than that guy costs and and he's got a good job and I got a good job and everybody's happy and I don't have poison ivy. You know, life's good, you know. It's just, there's some things that you, what Arthur Brooks talked about this the other day. You know, I had him on Entree Leadership and you had him on your show too.

2:05:30Dave Ramsey:The happiness professor from Harvard. One of the things that money does is it buys back your time. To me, that's the single greatest thing money does is it buys you time. Buys your time. It's a time machine. It does buy you some comfort, creature comfort things, but it buys your time back. And so if I don't have to do this thing over here, then I can do something else. And that's what money does for you. It will buy your time. And that's the beauty of having been as incredible as Pam and her husband. We're picking at her. But, I mean, God almighty, they got$3 or$4 million. It's pretty incredible.

2:06:04Dave Ramsey:You can do what they want. Well done. Very well done, y 'all. Pretty stinking cool. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.